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Death Of A Nation? Paradise Lost? Death Of Paradise?


Just1Voice

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When you have it you won't miss it until it gone. If you never have it you won't miss either. But when you have a test of it you always wanted more. This is the different between having and not having it. Being foreigners you won't know the different between having and not having it in our country.

Ulysses wrote "would have been "workable" for the protesters other than making Thaksin Prime Minister again and that would have not been "workable" for the government supporters - and now it is probably impossible for him to be trusted by most of the country. By rejecting the peace deal and then causing total anarchy, the reds lost most of the sympathy and support that would have been gained. They cut their own throats by not negotiating in good faith

Gregb wrote "The bigger question here is why do you believe what was offered wasn't "workable"? It was very workable for everyone except for Thaksin.

And yes, I believe Abhisit wants peace. But first he has to eliminate the threat of Thaksin so that peace is possible. Thaksin is a non negotiable obstacle to peace. Everything else is on the table except for that.

I want you both to have clear understanding about me and the reason why I am here. I am not here to defend Thaksin nor do I ever support Thaksin course. I'm very much doubted that Thaksin would ever be Thailand Prime Minister again. And I don't think he is that stupid enough to want to be Prime Minister again. It isn't very safe for him to be here or to live here in peace that for sure. As far as most people are concern he is a damage good. Only thing that he did good for the poor is something the poor won't forget and would probably fighting on for him. But since he was part of the problem and that inculding Mr. Abhisit the problem isn't going to go away by itself. Both you comments is a bit out of line I'm sure you don't know better. Yes, Thailand have lost it good reputation over the years through our political crisis. To solve the problem we must understand what & why we keeping having this problem. If the people still feeling very bad about what they recives from government they will take to street in protest again & again. People has some good test from Thaksin and now they wants more. If this government ignore this it won't be much of government. The government must try to give something back to the people especially the poor of Thailand. We cannot solve our problem by beating them to supmission or hope the problem will go away by itself. Finger pointing as you have stated isn't going to help. I only state the fact that so far this government hasn't done anything to bring peace to our country. Abhisit need to have new election to ensure his position as the right leader vote by the people. If this situation continue without majority to have their say then they'll be back. My principle stand is for justice for all and what has happened its far from being fair. Thailand cannot solve it problem through coup or dictator by those elites. So let's not talking about the prolems that we all knew. Please let's talk about what we can do with the problem that we have in our hand. Being a good leader doesn't mean you have a nice face it must come with a brain as well if you want to run a country. If you have good education then you must learn how to use it fully. If the whole team is good then it would have been easy to achieve anything. If one is good and the rest is all corrupt you not going to make it in this world. As most politicains in Thailand are quite corrupt it would be very difficult to fight it with a single hand. It will need the whole country unity to bring down corrupt official. The game still very much in play so the question is are you willing to play this game?

Do you really just not understand the situation?

What needs to happen is the reds need to denounce Thaksin. After that, the whole country can unite behind them and this can all be over. Everyone wants justice, but for more than 50% of the country justice means Thaksin must be punished for his crimes.

He is the only reason we can't achieve peace. The rest of your arguments, that this is because Abhisit or the government doesn't want to do what is necessary, is simply wrong. I don't accept that. It is propaganda.

If you want to bring down corrupt officials, let's all unite to do that. Let's start with Thaksin. Denounce him, convince your friends to denounce him, start a movement so that all reds denounce him, and then we can go after the rest together.

Are you willing to play?

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Hi Ulysses, sorry if I misread you comment as much have been talk about Thaksin. Yes you probably right about trusting Thaksin but some may disagree with your view that is why it very important that we mustn’t forget or ignore those people who worship him. The government must give people something that no matches another. They must invest in the people bring better living standard, be open with people without bias news, tell people about their plans and implement it accordingly, improves education system that would allow children to express better in classroom, histories lesson should be base on true history not out of fiction novel as they did, plan better water system for our agricultures north & northeast, Plan our agricultures for better system that will bring work for those needed most in the north & northeast, allow foreign investment easy access to our system without too much restriction these are some of the thing that Abhisit government should & must achieve within time frame that they have. Give a date for new election that people can look forward to. Abhisit must give people some hope for the people to looking forward to.

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I don't want to weigh in on the discussion, but having been here quite a number of years, I have seen the loss of hope that has occurred in the past few years. The country had a a lot of barriers, but by and large there was a lot of upward mobility that doesn't exist to as many as it used to.

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Gregb wrote “Do you really just not understand the situation?

What needs to happen is the reds need to denounce Thaksin. After that, the whole country can unite behind them and this can all be over. Everyone wants justice, but for more than 50% of the country justice means Thaksin must be punished for his crimes.

He is the only reason we can't achieve peace. The rest of your arguments, that this is because Abhisit or the government doesn't want to do what is necessary, is simply wrong. I don't accept that. It is propaganda.

If you want to bring down corrupt officials, let's all unite to do that. Let's start with Thaksin. Denounce him, convince your friends to denounce him, start a movement so that all reds denounce him, and then we can go after the rest together.

Are you willing to play?

Firstly I don’t think it me that don’t understand the situation but what I am not going to do is to start a silly agument about who is right or wrong. Seondly I think you are asking too much of me. How can I denounce Thaksin when I don’t even care about him and how can you expect me to tell people to denounce him when it a job of the government to improve better relationship with people. People have they’re own thought and they can decide for themselves who they wanted to follow. And as for fighting against corruption Sure I’m game for that! But you must understand that to be able to fight corruption you must at least have one foot in the door of power frist. So let me hear you suggestion of how are we going to fight these official as you said without having power to begin.

I don’t need to have or making up some propaganda for you or anyone. Any person who can read & think & fully comprehend verything surround them don’t need propaganda to help them to make their mind up. There are too many intelligent people around I don’t think they need me to tell them the difer. After all we all living in the real world not some kind of Starwar or Disney world as some may think.

One thing thou if you want people to stop think about Thaksin then you must learn not to mention too much of his name or finger pointing in that direction. People isn’t going to forget about Thaksin unless they have a good reason to, like their own happiness that comes with good standard of living and able to have a job that worth their hard labour. This means that they can have some saving for the rainy day as they only earn enough to get by hand & mouth of each day. People like Thaksin will come & go the question is how are we going to keep the bad people out of Thai politic and people minds.

Yes! I already started the game with you tailing!

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Judia wrote “Isn't it Best if Our Country just get wipe out of the map? Look at how thing turning out to be, look at the People, i have to say that people like us(Thai) should All hang ourself and be in peace.

I once love my country. Our Tradition is fading like Titanic sinking into the abyss. The City Of Angel or soo they call is nothing more then just Words. Luckily i never like bangkok soo whatever happen to bangkok doesnt concern me since i dont live in thailand either

I find our country is nothing more then a City Of Hatred

I do feel for your sentiment and I know deep down you don’t really mean that. It doesn’t matter how far we living in this world Thailand still remain our country. We might have lost some love but nevertheless we still have some good feeling within. I am sure you don’t want to be added to those hatred feeling like other.

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IMHO the country really is in trouble and I can well imagine things getting very much worse. The problem is that nothing has really been spent on infrastructure and welfare, and that as progressive nations work towards common goals, Thailand has a vested interest in making poor people even poorer, as the country's profit margin seems to rely on exploitation of the poor.

Don't get me wrong in a way that's to the benefit of expats like me. Though I've long since retired from the bar scene, it is better for me if things do stay cheap. But I don't deny the situation is bad.

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Scorecard wrote “

I address just your post, as follows:

1. - Yes, there is very definitely a very big gap in Thai society in terms of living standards, opportunity, and fair justice. There is no doubt whatever that this is true! It's also true in many supposedly well developed countries, but that doesn't mean it's OK!

2. - Abhisit didn't create this situation, but please be fair, he (and Khun Korn) have been trying to get started to address this situation from very soon after he assumed the PM position, well before the songkran mahem of 2009 and the red shirt mob violence of the last few months.

3. - There is clearly a need for a systematic approach to gaining change, and there are processes in the pipline to work on it, to fix the foundations so that the problems disappear longer term.

In fact the need for change has been evident for several decades but no PM prior to abhisit has paid any attention to the matter. And please don't say that thaksin took care of the poor - handouts given out just at the right time don't, long-term, fix anything.

4. - The red shirts/UDD group.

4.a. - I refer back to and emphasise my point 1 above.

4. b - The red shirts / UDD are not , overall, a legitimate movement for change, never never never have jatuporn, veera, arisman, weng etc., given a speech, given a presentation, taken part in a moderated debate etc., about the reason for and the processes of building and maintaining democracy or provided any input into how to reduce the gap.

In fact they are nothing more than a paid smokescreen over getting a pardon for thaksin and a return to the old constitition which would be of gain to thakins ends and his corrupt cronies ends.

They claim they are oppoesed to 'double standards', but in reality they and their paymaster wrote the text book of case studies of double standards.

Whatever you think Thailand has been devided into yellow, red, black, pink, and blue. Each have their own view about our political issues. If the establishment & elites would leave elected government to do it work and allow people to have their say and keep it decision to the common people to decide, we won’t be having this kind of problem. If we do have the body that overlook the corruption & misconduct of politician with the law enforcment they should be allow to their job without any interfering. It isn’t a job of military to decide who is right or wrong and takeover by the coup. If the government is no good it will a job for the people to decide whether they should stay or go. Thailand always have double standard one for the rich and another for the poor. From what you have said in your comment do you speak for the poor or do you speak for the rich? Please don’t forget that Thailand have more poor people than rich so if we want to live in hamony then we nustn’t forget the poor.

Smokscreen only benefit those who have agenda of their own to benefiting themselves they have to create a much bigger smokescreen but the smoke has gone it will nothing for them to hide. Therefore people must be well inform and truthful above all.

The question is how do we get together and have the unity that we so needed to hold our country together once again?

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When you have it you won't miss it until it gone. If you never have it you won't miss either. But when you have a test of it you always wanted more. This is the different between having and not having it. Being foreigners you won't know the different between having and not having it in our country.

Ulysses wrote "would have been "workable" for the protesters other than making Thaksin Prime Minister again and that would have not been "workable" for the government supporters - and now it is probably impossible for him to be trusted by most of the country. By rejecting the peace deal and then causing total anarchy, the reds lost most of the sympathy and support that would have been gained. They cut their own throats by not negotiating in good faith

Gregb wrote "The bigger question here is why do you believe what was offered wasn't "workable"? It was very workable for everyone except for Thaksin.

And yes, I believe Abhisit wants peace. But first he has to eliminate the threat of Thaksin so that peace is possible. Thaksin is a non negotiable obstacle to peace. Everything else is on the table except for that.

I want you both to have clear understanding about me and the reason why I am here. I am not here to defend Thaksin nor do I ever support Thaksin course. I'm very much doubted that Thaksin would ever be Thailand Prime Minister again. And I don't think he is that stupid enough to want to be Prime Minister again. It isn't very safe for him to be here or to live here in peace that for sure. As far as most people are concern he is a damage good. Only thing that he did good for the poor is something the poor won't forget and would probably fighting on for him. But since he was part of the problem and that inculding Mr. Abhisit the problem isn't going to go away by itself. Both you comments is a bit out of line I'm sure you don't know better. Yes, Thailand have lost it good reputation over the years through our political crisis. To solve the problem we must understand what & why we keeping having this problem. If the people still feeling very bad about what they recives from government they will take to street in protest again & again. People has some good test from Thaksin and now they wants more. If this government ignore this it won't be much of government. The government must try to give something back to the people especially the poor of Thailand. We cannot solve our problem by beating them to supmission or hope the problem will go away by itself. Finger pointing as you have stated isn't going to help. I only state the fact that so far this government hasn't done anything to bring peace to our country. Abhisit need to have new election to ensure his position as the right leader vote by the people. If this situation continue without majority to have their say then they'll be back. My principle stand is for justice for all and what has happened its far from being fair. Thailand cannot solve it problem through coup or dictator by those elites. So let's not talking about the prolems that we all knew. Please let's talk about what we can do with the problem that we have in our hand. Being a good leader doesn't mean you have a nice face it must come with a brain as well if you want to run a country. If you have good education then you must learn how to use it fully. If the whole team is good then it would have been easy to achieve anything. If one is good and the rest is all corrupt you not going to make it in this world. As most politicains in Thailand are quite corrupt it would be very difficult to fight it with a single hand. It will need the whole country unity to bring down corrupt official. The game still very much in play so the question is are you willing to play this game?

Do you really just not understand the situation?

What needs to happen is the reds need to denounce Thaksin. After that, the whole country can unite behind them and this can all be over. Everyone wants justice, but for more than 50% of the country justice means Thaksin must be punished for his crimes.

He is the only reason we can't achieve peace. The rest of your arguments, that this is because Abhisit or the government doesn't want to do what is necessary, is simply wrong. I don't accept that. It is propaganda.

If you want to bring down corrupt officials, let's all unite to do that. Let's start with Thaksin. Denounce him, convince your friends to denounce him, start a movement so that all reds denounce him, and then we can go after the rest together.

Are you willing to play?

You could start by accepting the possibility that Thaksin might not be the totality of the problem.

"Voice" has a lot of good points.

philw

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Philw wrote "You could start by accepting the possibility that Thaksin might not be the totality of the problem.

"Voice" has a lot of good points.

philw

Thank you for listening Philw. As for me the problem didn't just begin with Thaksin it began when conflict of interest with some individual that cannot be name here. If you know the truth you would bewildered as to why it happen. Personal interest of some individual is much too value than just people welfair.

Edited by Voice
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Scorecard wrote “

I address just your post, as follows:

1. - Yes, there is very definitely a very big gap in Thai society in terms of living standards, opportunity, and fair justice. There is no doubt whatever that this is true! It's also true in many supposedly well developed countries, but that doesn't mean it's OK!

2. - Abhisit didn't create this situation, but please be fair, he (and Khun Korn) have been trying to get started to address this situation from very soon after he assumed the PM position, well before the songkran mahem of 2009 and the red shirt mob violence of the last few months.

3. - There is clearly a need for a systematic approach to gaining change, and there are processes in the pipline to work on it, to fix the foundations so that the problems disappear longer term.

In fact the need for change has been evident for several decades but no PM prior to abhisit has paid any attention to the matter. And please don't say that thaksin took care of the poor - handouts given out just at the right time don't, long-term, fix anything.

4. - The red shirts/UDD group.

4.a. - I refer back to and emphasise my point 1 above.

4. b - The red shirts / UDD are not , overall, a legitimate movement for change, never never never have jatuporn, veera, arisman, weng etc., given a speech, given a presentation, taken part in a moderated debate etc., about the reason for and the processes of building and maintaining democracy or provided any input into how to reduce the gap.

In fact they are nothing more than a paid smokescreen over getting a pardon for thaksin and a return to the old constitition which would be of gain to thakins ends and his corrupt cronies ends.

They claim they are oppoesed to 'double standards', but in reality they and their paymaster wrote the text book of case studies of double standards.

Whatever you think Thailand has been devided into yellow, red, black, pink, and blue. Each have their own view about our political issues. If the establishment & elites would leave elected government to do it work and allow people to have their say and keep it decision to the common people to decide, we won’t be having this kind of problem.

Cannot disagree that we now have the colour groups, but what caused them? Sonthi had a double edged agenda; a personal payback against thaksin and a cause - reveal thaksin for his massive corruption, vote buying, changing of laws to benefit his family, cronyism, nepotism etc., which generated the yellow shirts. key word thaksin. Then thaksin pays a group of scaly peole to start up his personal 'army', the birth of the red shirts. Key word thaksin. During the time line of this the army steps in and removes thaksin, and no matter how you describe this, at that moment in time the public at large supported the bloodless coup. You also say 'elected government', well many would disagree with this wording, and say it was a bought election and there's plenty of evidence of that. The modern mititary (last 10 years or so) has not prevented elections, in fact the military govt., after the 2006 coup, ordered a general election some 10 months after the coup.

If we do have the body that overlook the corruption & misconduct of politician with the law enforcment they should be allow to their job without any interfering. It isn’t a job of military to decide who is right or wrong and takeover by the coup. If the government is no good it will a job for the people to decide whether they should stay or go.

No argument with your comments, however the fact is that there was no body, with teeth, to find, investigate or punish corruption, and thaksin destroyed and intimidated much of the checks and balance stystems plus the judiciary and thaksin became to some extent the law, even ordering the murder of 3,000 Thai people. You say let the will of the people get rid of poor performing PMs and their cronies. Nice though but the weak constitution of Thailand allowed thaksin to become far far too powerful, with thaksin saying on numerous ocasions that democracy was not his goal / not important (also meaning that elections were not important).

Much of the Thailand always have double standard one for the rich and another for the poor. From what you have said in your comment do you speak for the poor or do you speak for the rich? Please don’t forget that Thailand have more poor people than rich so if we want to live in hamony then we nustn’t forget the poor.

I repeat my words:

1. - Yes, there is very definitely a very big gap in Thai society in terms of living standards, opportunity, and fair justice. There is no doubt whatever that this is true! It's also true in many supposedly well developed countries, but that doesn't mean it's OK!

2. - Abhisit didn't create this situation, but please be fair, he (and Khun Korn) have been trying to get started to address this situation from very soon after he assumed the PM position, well before the songkran mahem of 2009 and the red shirt mob violence of the last few months.

Personally I would fight hard to gain a situation whereby the number of poor people is as close to zero as possible. But this needs to be achieved by policy and structural reform put in place by capable sincere and honest politicians (of which we currently hav very few) not by mobs, and I mention again that Abhisit and korn started this months ago.

Smokscreen only benefit those who have agenda of their own to benefiting themselves they have to create a much bigger smokescreen but the smoke has gone it will nothing for them to hide. Therefore people must be well inform and truthful above all.

Not sure if you understood my meaning by saying 'smokescreen'; My intent was to say that the UDD/red shirt leaders are a smokescreen for the benefit of thaksin and nothing more.

I most certainly agree that we need a situation whereby all Thais are much much better informed about the big picture, and much better informed about the mechanisms of democracy, and have much more opportunity to speak and be heard, but not by mob activity.

The question is how do we get together and have the unity that we so needed to hold our country together once again?

I agree with your final paragraph. And I suggest that given a chance PM abhisit will take the country forward and will create a better situation for all Thais.

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When you have it you won't miss it until it gone. If you never have it you won't miss either. But when you have a test of it you always wanted more. This is the different between having and not having it. Being foreigners you won't know the different between having and not having it in our country.

Gregb wrote "The bigger question here is why do you believe what was offered wasn't "workable"? It was very workable for everyone except for Thaksin.

And yes, I believe Abhisit wants peace. But first he has to eliminate the threat of Thaksin so that peace is possible. Thaksin is a non negotiable obstacle to peace. Everything else is on the table except for that.

I want you both to have clear understanding about me and the reason why I am here. I am not here to defend Thaksin nor do I ever support Thaksin course. I'm very much doubted that Thaksin would ever be Thailand Prime Minister again. And I don't think he is that stupid enough to want to be Prime Minister again. It isn't very safe for him to be here or to live here in peace that for sure. As far as most people are concern he is a damage good. Only thing that he did good for the poor is something the poor won't forget and would probably fighting on for him. But since he was part of the problem and that inculding Mr. Abhisit the problem isn't going to go away by itself. Both you comments is a bit out of line I'm sure you don't know better. Yes, Thailand have lost it good reputation over the years through our political crisis. To solve the problem we must understand what & why we keeping having this problem. If the people still feeling very bad about what they recives from government they will take to street in protest again & again. People has some good test from Thaksin and now they wants more. If this government ignore this it won't be much of government. The government must try to give something back to the people especially the poor of Thailand. We cannot solve our problem by beating them to supmission or hope the problem will go away by itself. Finger pointing as you have stated isn't going to help. I only state the fact that so far this government hasn't done anything to bring peace to our country. Abhisit need to have new election to ensure his position as the right leader vote by the people. If this situation continue without majority to have their say then they'll be back. My principle stand is for justice for all and what has happened its far from being fair. Thailand cannot solve it problem through coup or dictator by those elites. So let's not talking about the prolems that we all knew. Please let's talk about what we can do with the problem that we have in our hand. Being a good leader doesn't mean you have a nice face it must come with a brain as well if you want to run a country. If you have good education then you must learn how to use it fully. If the whole team is good then it would have been easy to achieve anything. If one is good and the rest is all corrupt you not going to make it in this world. As most politicains in Thailand are quite corrupt it would be very difficult to fight it with a single hand. It will need the whole country unity to bring down corrupt official. The game still very much in play so the question is are you willing to play this game?

Do you really just not understand the situation?

What needs to happen is the reds need to denounce Thaksin. After that, the whole country can unite behind them and this can all be over. Everyone wants justice, but for more than 50% of the country justice means Thaksin must be punished for his crimes.

He is the only reason we can't achieve peace. The rest of your arguments, that this is because Abhisit or the government doesn't want to do what is necessary, is simply wrong. I don't accept that. It is propaganda.

If you want to bring down corrupt officials, let's all unite to do that. Let's start with Thaksin. Denounce him, convince your friends to denounce him, start a movement so that all reds denounce him, and then we can go after the rest together.

Are you willing to play?

You could start by accepting the possibility that Thaksin might not be the totality of the problem.

"Voice" has a lot of good points.

philw

You could start by reading what I have told you in this and other threads. Thaksin is not the totality of the problem, however he is the totality of the obstacle making the solution intractable.

Until Thaksin is denounced by the reds, there will be no progress on the other issues because people are afraid. They will not give even a little bit for fear of opening a gaping wound that will allow Thaksin to come back. And you can't blame them after the horrors he has committed, and his psycopathic attititude towards others.

When the reds stop wielding Thaksin as a weapon, there can be real progress. Nobody does anything with a gun pointed at their head. Nobody will do anything when the reds are threatening with Thaksin. Please try and read my comments rather than making up your own strawmen. Thaksin needs to go first so that those who are not reds can stop fearing the results of any concession.

Denounce Thaksin first, and let us all join together to solve the rest of the concerns. That is the only possible way forward. The only thing that remains to be seen now is how many people have to die before the reds realize this.

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Check this out- <A class=bbc_url title="External link" href="http://wscdn.bbc.co....rammes/b00t3yh5" rel="nofollow external">http://wscdn.bbc.co....rammes/b00t3yh5

Says "Not available in your area"

I'm in Thailand and I go out on the internet IN Thailand and No, it doesn't say that for me. It says "This content doesn't seem to be working. Try again later" :whistling:

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Yeah, well, I'm in Chiang Mai and it is 8:50 a.m., Monday the 19, and I just tried it and it says NOT AVAILABLE IN YOUR AREA.

CAT controls all lines in and out of Thailand and CAT does NOT block their own internet users but not other Thai internet providers, that is rubbish

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Yeah, well, I'm in Chiang Mai and it is 8:50 a.m., Monday the 19, and I just tried it and it says NOT AVAILABLE IN YOUR AREA.

CAT controls all lines in and out of Thailand and CAT does NOT block their own internet users but not other Thai internet providers, that is rubbish

I'm just telling you what it says when I click on the link.

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I thought this was an interesting and well written piece. As others have suggested, it is predicated on an incorrect view that Thailand was paradise prior to 2005. All the examples of the so-called decline of Thailand, (and they are good ones, with which we are all familiar), have been going on since well before my time. Perhaps we just never knew about them, or chose to ignore them. The difference today is that we do know about them, all of them. Everyone does. With this knowledge it is sad, infuriating, (pick your adjective), that Thais are happy to continue to live with this culture and are not willing to adapt, and there is no one with any moral fibre willing to take the country in a new direction. I think not believing that the basic precepts of honesty, decency, compassion and generosity of spirit and deed are things we should all aspire to, is a very disturbing fault in any culture and society. The fact that foreigners who live here make these arguments matters as much or as little as the Thais who wish to see no change in the status quo. It is indeed their country, and theirs to do something about, or not. Making observations is all we can do. But the task is enormous, and cannot be addressed by any quick fixes. If society decides it wants to see those changes, it will take one (or two) generations for there to be a palpable difference.

Well, I wouldn't think LOS was "Paradise" before 2005. Paradise was lost for me when purachai started his anti farang night life crusade, and that's way back before 2005.

IMO, Thailand's best chance was lost when Chuan Leekpai was ousted following the crash of the baht. Another thing to curse soros for. When Leekpai was PM, things seemed to going well, and there was hope of a brighter future for all. Since then, LOS seems to me to have been on a slow downward spiral.

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  • 4 months later...

The problems started prior to 2005.

So, the premise is false.

Paradise lost? What is this Thai Visa fashion to pretend that Thailand was full of nothing but loving, honest Buddhists until just recently and was somehow "better" in the past? Thailand has been known as a shady place for shady people for at least 50 years and probably long before.

In the 1970s the place was full of con artists and drug freaks on the Hippie Trail. Charles Sobhraj was murdering and robbing tourists and paying off the police to look the other way.

l have always loved living here, but - despite the complaints on the Internet - there was a lot more corruption and longterm visa hassles 20 years ago than there is today and just as much crime.

http://en.wikipedia....Charles_Sobhraj

As far as politics go, there have been numerous military coups and violent crackdowns (Black May for one) over the years. What is new about that? I would agree that the current situation might spin out of control, but we all thought the same thing in 1992.

How about when Thailand started the financial meltdown in this part of the world in 1997? That was mostly caused by a lack of honesty and that is just one example.

Don't get me wrong, I have always loved living here, but it has never been a shining beacon of democracy or human rights or unusual progress and the justice system has always been flawed. I just do not understand why so many members seem to think otherwise.

If you do not like Thailand, that is your right, but it has not been that much different for quite a while. :blink:

Very good - I always listen to the person with the most years of seniority living here. What was written up there

has a lot of truth and was a lot of my observation after less than 5 years total staying in Thailand

but it's good to here the opinion of someone who's been here for more like 20 or 30 years.An invaluable

point of view. In other words it can be risky making your way in Thailand over the long haul.

That's what keeps the prices of things reasonable and far less than the more developed nations.

Nothing we can do about that. I don't think whatever's written can change anything so why bother?

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We'll have to agree to disagree then. If I'm the only person on this forum who's had dealings with the police in an accident and only been dealt with in a straightforward manner then I've got a rather large hat I'll eat.

And apologies for coming across as rude but your advice about the nearest friendly Thai person hashing it out about what I'd have to pay is quite frankly laughable. I don't know what sort of friendly "shrinking violet" Thais you hang about with but my Thai wife, family and friends would either hash it out at the side of the road (in my favour) or come with me to the police station to sort it out there (in my favour). There's not a chance that they'd have me going home shelling out a single baht if I was in the right.

I'm sure there's other posters on here the same. I certainly hope so.

I'm with you here. Posters such as the OP - and it seems the majority of the TV board members - seem to live in a different Thailand to the one me and my wife and children lived in. The carte blanche assertion that if you are a foreigner in LOS, you are going to get screwed, then goes on to poison, and discredit any other argument they may have.

With a decade under my belt - and the same goes for my wife - I can honestly say there hasn't been a significant instance where being a foreign national has disadvantaged us. Indeed, I can say that in most cases you can use it to your advantage.

But that is a skill many whiners - sorry - posters seem to lack. I'm not sure why as I've never found it difficult living within the bounds of the law in Thailand, nor, when (on the very rare occasion) I've had to stick up for my rights, had the result come out in my favour.

The same goes for a majority of people I know who are foreigners in Thailand.

But as others have said, it doesn't invalidate the experiences of others. I'm sure they occur. But having been exposed to many facets of 'the system' in LOS, it is indeed frightening that there seems to be people who can't apply even a rudimentry level of 'common sense' in most situations, which will ensure that the system treats you just fine - and to a large extent pragmatically (which doesn't tend to happen in the west) and fairly. Oh, and not a single baht changes hand.

Indeed, it is the same common sense that lets you get on with life 'back home', but unfortunately, it is something that people tend to leave on the plane when they disembark at BKK Airport.

I think people also tend to forget that it is difficult moving to any new country. Full stop. As an Australian who moved to the UK, I can guarantee you that the system there throws more illogical - and occasionally unnavigatable - bureacracy at you than thailand ever has. Wherever you go there are always new ways/things to learn, and new ways to acheive goals. To put it down 'the system'/'the people' are against you, is just a plain cop out.

As for other assertions that you can't own a car without a WP, I dare suggest the OP use a search engine cause there are a heck of alot of TV members who will swear black and blue from behind the steering wheels of their vehicles that they can.

overall I tend to find the entire thesis of the OP a bit shallow. Just because it is lengthy, does not make it a valuable contribution.

But obviously I'm the disenting miniority here.

Edited by samran
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We'll have to agree to disagree then. If I'm the only person on this forum who's had dealings with the police in an accident and only been dealt with in a straightforward manner then I've got a rather large hat I'll eat.

And apologies for coming across as rude but your advice about the nearest friendly Thai person hashing it out about what I'd have to pay is quite frankly laughable. I don't know what sort of friendly "shrinking violet" Thais you hang about with but my Thai wife, family and friends would either hash it out at the side of the road (in my favour) or come with me to the police station to sort it out there (in my favour). There's not a chance that they'd have me going home shelling out a single baht if I was in the right.

I'm sure there's other posters on here the same. I certainly hope so.

I'm with you here. Posters such as the OP - and it seems the majority of the TV board members - seem to live in a different Thailand to the one me and my wife and children lived in. The carte blanche assertion that if you are a foreigner in LOS, you are going to get screwed, then goes on to poison, and discredit any other argument they may have.

With a decade under my belt - and the same goes for my wife - I can honestly say there hasn't been a significant instance where being a foreign national has disadvantaged us. Indeed, I can say that in most cases you can use it to your advantage.

But that is a skill many whiners - sorry - posters seem to lack. I'm not sure why as I've never found it difficult living within the bounds of the law in Thailand, nor, when (on the very rare occasion) I've had to stick up for my rights, had the result come out in my favour.

The same goes for a majority of people I know who are foreigners in Thailand.

But as others have said, it doesn't invalidate the experiences of others. I'm sure they occur. But having been exposed to many facets of 'the system' in LOS, it is indeed frightening that there seems to be people who can't apply even a rudimentry level of 'common sense' in most situations, which will ensure that the system treats you just fine - and to a large extent pragmatically (which doesn't tend to happen in the west) and fairly. Oh, and not a single baht changes hand.

Indeed, it is the same common sense that lets you get on with life 'back home', but unfortunately, it is something that people tend to leave on the plane when they disembark at BKK Airport.

I think people also tend to forget that it is difficult moving to any new country. Full stop. As an Australian who moved to the UK, I can guarantee you that the system there throws more illogical - and occasionally unnavigatable - bureacracy at you than thailand ever has. Wherever you go there are always new ways/things to learn, and new ways to acheive goals. To put it down 'the system'/'the people' are against you, is just a plain cop out.

As for other assertions that you can't own a car without a WP, I dare suggest the OP use a search engine cause there are a heck of alot of TV members who will swear black and blue from behind the steering wheels of their vehicles that they can.

overall I tend to find the entire thesis of the OP a bit shallow. Just because it is lengthy, does not make it a valuable contribution.

But obviously I'm the disenting miniority here.

Of course you can own a car without WP, I do and most of my friends do, and its financed with 25% down, in my name. My 8th car in LOS.

farang can have thai credit card, I do

and you can have 20 motocy if you want

and house in your name

and condo in your name

and no need to marry thai

you name it, just seek for solutions :)

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B) All I can say is Wow!. I read through most of it and have to pretty much agree with 90%. I lived in Thailand for 7 years and watched the chain of events and studied the history. I am surprised this post was even allowed to remain since it is so critical. I for one, am one who wants to see Thailand and its people prosper. One of the things that struck me is that Thailand has lost its position as a leading Rice exporter. This point has not been refuted by our host of very knowledgable members so I have to believe it is true.

LL

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So the image of Paradise is fading away... this is why the Thais don't want you to know too much about Thailand. Not that I see the Thais as a homogenic group of people with one common mentality, I'm just saying that this is what the saying "farang roo mak mai dee" obviously stems from. Oh, and by the way, I'm terribly sorry to hear that you found out the truth about Thailand and had your lovely illusions blown away.

The way that rich Thai parents can sob about how hard it is to bribe the headmasters of the best schools to let their stupid son enter - on the cost of a brighter kid of course - is an example of how shamelessly the rich people in Thailand always have kicked down at the poor. It's only a century since slavery was abolished there.

Thailand was never Paradise. What I just mentioned above would never have happened in something even close to Paradise - unless Paradise is only for the rich. However, Thailand is great at making itself look wonderful to the un-trained eyes and ignorant mind. In Asia, it's of vital importance to always make everything look perfect to the outside world - keeping up appearances, so to speak (I nearly used the 'f-word' right now, but 'keeping face' is such a cliché). As the high-educated people we are, we have a desire to research more of the country, getting to know the locals, learn the language, etc., some of which comes by itself as we settle down there - and we get to see the darker and less beautiful sides of the country, characteristics which the travel agencies from natural reasons wouldn't mention.

You cannot lose something you never had in the first place, so Thailand is obviously not a "Paradise Lost". But your perception of Thailand as a Paradise might wither and die, which of course is completely natural that it does after a while. Like I said, Thailand was never Paradise. When living there and spending time with the locals, why would you want to perceive Thailand as something which it isn't?

Death of a nation? Sounds dramatic - it better not happen. But the political consciousness among people in the countryside will make it harder to keep Thailand together as one country. It might even take a revolution and a change of government to some kind of "democratic people's republic" to keep political stability in a country with such vast social differences and oppression of the poor. The way I see it, there is only one person whom the unity of Thailand depends on under these circumstances - and today is his birthday.

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Thailand had its arse-cheeks levered open and neo-liberal capitalism rammed up its gary so of course it's changed. It's not often that dear Karl is quoted on Thaivisa but 150 years ago he was spot on the money:

"The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society. Conservation of the old modes of production in unaltered form, was, on the contrary, the first condition of existence for all earlier industrial classes. Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind."

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