Testosterone

[chorizo]

Testosterone a bit low, anyone suggest a good doctor forreplacement...patches ? Thanks for all replies.....chorizo

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

I found these quotes from a couple of posts in the Health forum about testosterone in Thailand.

http://www.andriol.com/home.asp

"Andriol Testocaps is a legal over the counter synthetic testosterone sold in Thailand at Boots and Watson's etc... with no prescription."

and

"i checked 3 pharmacies today and got a price from 120 to 160 baht for 10 40 mg caps, initial dosages about 120 mg "

It's a few excerpts from this thread.

Testosterone in HGH TV discussion

I have never tried these or checked their availability but it is interesting option. Are some precautions however.

Anyone else try these?

[BillR]

sent you a pm, my business carries several testosterone boosters from the USA.

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

sent you a pm, my business carries several testosterone boosters from the USA.

Bill

Tell us about these testosterone boosters and how they work. Creatine?

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Chorizo,

Our first thoughts, on reading you thought your testosterone levels were low, was: "wow ... how lucky ... think of how many baht you'll save ... and the trouble you won't get into."

Disclaimer: we don't use any hormonal supplements, and never have, but since 90% of our diet is soy-milk (laced with infant powder for ages three and over for extra protein), this male human meat-package that contains us is actually probably having reduced testosterone due to (both aging and) the estrogen content of the soy. We consider that a "blessing" since, in our case, our "mental faculties:" concentration, and short- and long- term memory seem to be better (at age 1877 moons) than they were 120 to 180 moons ago. We take refuge in the "lust of imagination"

Several things can temporarily reduce testosterone levels in males, as well as (praise be !) having sex, including aerobic exercise, hot saunas, etc. And, obviously, recent illnesses, chronic or actue, and medications, can impact the energy of the total system. As well as stress, domestic problems, money problems, work-related stressors, etc.

From studies read several years ago we remember that weight-training can increase testosterone: but perhaps there is a lot of more recent research on this we are not familiar with, and our guess is that there are some TV CM regulars that probably really know a lot about this, and can fill you (and all of us) in on current scientific understanding.

Our own choice, if we felt we really needed more of that primate hallucinogenic kickapoo-joy-juice (present and essential in both males and females) would be to first get a thorough medical endocrine screening that would look at thyroid function, testosterone level, etc., maybe even a PSA test since increasing testosterone may increase risk of prostrate cancer for some people ... so we've read.

And we'd consider, in your case, your age, factors like whether you are over-weight, general cardio-vascular fitness, and aerobic fitness; whether you smoke, drink, do other intoxicants, etc. We'd also try to "tease out" the difference, or connection, between general malaise and lack of energy and a resuting "lack of libido," and any specific condition (like erectile dysfunction).

It would be our choice to turn to the ... uhhh ... "neo-scientific body-building community" and its glut of supplements ... which we don't doubt contains some wisdom ... only after getting a medical "all-clear."

good luck, best, ~o:37;

[BillR]

we carry Tribulus Terrestris Extract. It increases testosterone levels in a different way, however, than similar products DHEA or andro. Instead of being a testosterone precursor, it leads to the production of the luteinizing hormone (LH). When LH levels are increased, the natural production of testosterone also increases. Now one can understand why it has been used to support healthy libido.

We also carry a product called Anabolic Meth-X

This super anabolic complex has:

• 5-Methyl 7-Methoxyisoflavone
• N-Acetyl-Cysteine
• Guggulsterone
• Tribulus
• ZMA
• LPC

Methoxyisoflavone<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Promote more lean mass, increase strength, recovery times, bone mass, and induce a greater state of vitality with this powerful flavone.* All the while without worries of androgenic side-effects. In a nutshell, methoxyisoflavone is a non-hormonal anabolic / anti-catabolic compound.* This powerful flavone has been suggested to support protein synthesis and improve overall recovery from exercise.* Wow!

N-Acetyl-Cysteine<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">NAC supplementation has been surmised to increase lean body mass and act exhibit antioxidant properties, especially in conjunction with exercise.* Tissue damage and a weakened immune system have been found to be the result of intense exercise. NAC works to support normal immune function due to its ability to scavenge free radicals.* It also supports higher levels of in the bloodstream, which has been suggested to help repair damaged tissue.*

Guggulsterones<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Guggulsterones by themselves have been shown to work very well for fat loss Guggulsterones have been shown in studies to affect many biological processes including thyroid metabolism and dermal (skin) function.*

Tribulus<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">It´s for anyone who wants to support increased muscle growth.* Tribulus terrestris is a testosterone promoter.*

ZMA<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Don´t get me started! There is a large body of scientific evidence supportive of ZMA. Zinc and Magnesium are commonly depleted from your body. Studies have suggested that supplementing with 30mg of Zinc and 450mg of Magnesium per day may help elevate testosterone levels!*

LPC<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Lysophosphatidylcholine causes an expansion of the cells in the stomach and intestine walls which has been suggested to support nutrient absorption into the bloodstream.* Perfect!

We also have DHEA

Edited October 6, 2010 by BillR

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Chorizo,

Our first thoughts, on reading you thought your testosterone levels were low, was: "wow ... how lucky ... think of how many baht you'll save ... and the trouble you won't get into."

Disclaimer: we don't use any hormonal supplements, and never have, but since 90% of our diet is soy-milk (laced with infant powder for ages three and over for extra protein), this male human meat-package that contains us is actually probably having reduced testosterone due to (both aging and) the estrogen content of the soy. We consider that a "blessing" since, in our case, our "mental faculties:" concentration, and short- and long- term memory seem to be better (at age 1877 moons) than they were 120 to 180 moons ago. We take refuge in the "lust of imagination"

Several things can temporarily reduce testosterone levels in males, as well as (praise be !) having sex, including aerobic exercise, hot saunas, etc. And, obviously, recent illnesses, chronic or actue, and medications, can impact the energy of the total system. As well as stress, domestic problems, money problems, work-related stressors, etc.

From studies read several years ago we remember that weight-training can increase testosterone: but perhaps there is a lot of more recent research on this we are not familiar with, and our guess is that there are some TV CM regulars that probably really know a lot about this, and can fill you (and all of us) in on current scientific understanding.

Our own choice, if we felt we really needed more of that primate hallucinogenic kickapoo-joy-juice (present and essential in both males and females) would be to first get a thorough medical endocrine screening that would look at thyroid function, testosterone level, etc., maybe even a PSA test since increasing testosterone may increase risk of prostrate cancer for some people ... so we've read.

And we'd consider, in your case, your age, factors like whether you are over-weight, general cardio-vascular fitness, and aerobic fitness; whether you smoke, drink, do other intoxicants, etc. We'd also try to "tease out" the difference, or connection, between general malaise and lack of energy and a resuting "lack of libido," and any specific condition (like erectile dysfunction).

It would be our choice to turn to the ... uhhh ... "neo-scientific body-building community" and its glut of supplements ... which we don't doubt contains some wisdom ... only after getting a medical "all-clear."

good luck, best, ~o:37;

Orang

Testosterone levels are implicated in far more than sex drive. The hormone is critical for bone mass, muscle recovery, skin, hair nails repair and importantly deep restorative sleep. When folks have low testosterone levels they frequently have sleep issues.

Loading up on all that soy might be a factor in your past insomniac periods.

Might want to get your levels checked.

As a male ages then the Testosterone levels decrease and can be compensated by increasing intense exercise, eating animal proteins, decreasing estrogen raising foods like soy and licorice, and taking supplements or even hormone replacements.

[JAS21]

I know a tiny bit about this...so did you get measured Total Testosterone, Albumin and SHBG. From these you can calculate...just google for the formula...the Free and Bio available Testosterone. Total testo. on its own is not the full picture even though a Dr may have told you it is.

As someone said it drops with age and boosting it in later life can give you quite a pick up. Have a look at Lawley Pharmaceuticals in Australia, a lot of information there and they will send you a CD if you ask . No problem having the cream sent to Thailand..well we have never paid any duty.

However one should have the 'digital finger exam' etc medical before commencing treatment.

[orang37]

Testosterone levels are implicated in far more than sex drive. The hormone is critical for bone mass, muscle recovery, skin, hair nails repair and importantly deep restorative sleep. When folks have low testosterone levels they frequently have sleep issues.

Loading up on all that soy might be a factor in your past insomniac periods.

Might want to get your levels checked.

As a male ages then the Testosterone levels decrease and can be compensated by increasing intense exercise, eating animal proteins, decreasing estrogen raising foods like soy and licorice, and taking supplements or even hormone replacements.

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CobraSnakeNecktie,

Really appreciate your advice, and the spirit of concern in which it's given ! Believe the body had its T level checked a year ago, and Dr. Tawatchai said it was in "low normal" for a human male container of its age, but wouldn't hurt to get it checked again. And the "test done" certainly did not include the other tests mentioned on this thread by Khun John45 (albumin and SHBG).

Have the impression that people in general, as they age, do tend to have sleep problems, and need less sleep; we are not familiar with a linkage of that to testosterone, or hormonal balance in general, but will certainly look into that.

thanks !

best, ~o:37;

[jayjay0]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Chorizo,

Our first thoughts, on reading you thought your testosterone levels were low, was: "wow ... how lucky ... think of how many baht you'll save ... and the trouble you won't get into."

Disclaimer: we don't use any hormonal supplements, and never have, but since 90% of our diet is soy-milk (laced with infant powder for ages three and over for extra protein), this male human meat-package that contains us is actually probably having reduced testosterone due to (both aging and) the estrogen content of the soy. We consider that a "blessing" since, in our case, our "mental faculties:" concentration, and short- and long- term memory seem to be better (at age 1877 moons) than they were 120 to 180 moons ago. We take refuge in the "lust of imagination"

Several things can temporarily reduce testosterone levels in males, as well as (praise be !) having sex, including aerobic exercise, hot saunas, etc. And, obviously, recent illnesses, chronic or actue, and medications, can impact the energy of the total system. As well as stress, domestic problems, money problems, work-related stressors, etc.

From studies read several years ago we remember that weight-training can increase testosterone: but perhaps there is a lot of more recent research on this we are not familiar with, and our guess is that there are some TV CM regulars that probably really know a lot about this, and can fill you (and all of us) in on current scientific understanding.

Our own choice, if we felt we really needed more of that primate hallucinogenic kickapoo-joy-juice (present and essential in both males and females) would be to first get a thorough medical endocrine screening that would look at thyroid function, testosterone level, etc., maybe even a PSA test since increasing testosterone may increase risk of prostrate cancer for some people ... so we've read.

And we'd consider, in your case, your age, factors like whether you are over-weight, general cardio-vascular fitness, and aerobic fitness; whether you smoke, drink, do other intoxicants, etc. We'd also try to "tease out" the difference, or connection, between general malaise and lack of energy and a resuting "lack of libido," and any specific condition (like erectile dysfunction).

It would be our choice to turn to the ... uhhh ... "neo-scientific body-building community" and its glut of supplements ... which we don't doubt contains some wisdom ... only after getting a medical "all-clear."

good luck, best, ~o:37;

Orang

Testosterone levels are implicated in far more than sex drive. The hormone is critical for bone mass, muscle recovery, skin, hair nails repair and importantly deep restorative sleep. When folks have low testosterone levels they frequently have sleep issues.

Loading up on all that soy might be a factor in your past insomniac periods.

Might want to get your levels checked.

As a male ages then the Testosterone levels decrease and can be compensated by increasing intense exercise, eating animal proteins, decreasing estrogen raising foods like soy and licorice, and taking supplements or even hormone replacements.

OK decreasing licorice is going to far. take it back:(

[jayinoz]

Sustanon will give you all the testo you need... not expensive. It avail. in many places around CMai. Bulk orders best.

As it is legal in Thai- HGHs give a good boost- check out Jintropin. Aging Celebrities live on it.

[heybruce]

we carry Tribulus Terrestris Extract. It increases testosterone levels in a different way, however, than similar products DHEA or andro. Instead of being a testosterone precursor, it leads to the production of the luteinizing hormone (LH). When LH levels are increased, the natural production of testosterone also increases. Now one can understand why it has been used to support healthy libido.

We also carry a product called Anabolic Meth-X

This super anabolic complex has:

• 5-Methyl 7-Methoxyisoflavone
• N-Acetyl-Cysteine
• Guggulsterone
• Tribulus
• ZMA
• LPC

Methoxyisoflavone<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Promote more lean mass, increase strength, recovery times, bone mass, and induce a greater state of vitality with this powerful flavone.* All the while without worries of androgenic side-effects. In a nutshell, methoxyisoflavone is a non-hormonal anabolic / anti-catabolic compound.* This powerful flavone has been suggested to support protein synthesis and improve overall recovery from exercise.* Wow!

N-Acetyl-Cysteine<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">NAC supplementation has been surmised to increase lean body mass and act exhibit antioxidant properties, especially in conjunction with exercise.* Tissue damage and a weakened immune system have been found to be the result of intense exercise. NAC works to support normal immune function due to its ability to scavenge free radicals.* It also supports higher levels of in the bloodstream, which has been suggested to help repair damaged tissue.*

Guggulsterones<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Guggulsterones by themselves have been shown to work very well for fat loss Guggulsterones have been shown in studies to affect many biological processes including thyroid metabolism and dermal (skin) function.*

Tribulus<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">It´s for anyone who wants to support increased muscle growth.* Tribulus terrestris is a testosterone promoter.*

ZMA<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Don´t get me started! There is a large body of scientific evidence supportive of ZMA. Zinc and Magnesium are commonly depleted from your body. Studies have suggested that supplementing with 30mg of Zinc and 450mg of Magnesium per day may help elevate testosterone levels!*

LPC<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Lysophosphatidylcholine causes an expansion of the cells in the stomach and intestine walls which has been suggested to support nutrient absorption into the bloodstream.* Perfect!

We also have DHEA

Wow! "Studies have suggested...", "may help", "has been suggested", "testosterone promoter", etc. Sounds impressive without really saying anything. Can you definitely say "Taking 'X' will safely lead to a meaningful increase in testosterone." and can you direct us to credible scientific studies to support that statement?

[jayinoz]

we carry Tribulus Terrestris Extract. It increases testosterone levels in a different way, however, than similar products DHEA or andro. Instead of being a testosterone precursor, it leads to the production of the luteinizing hormone (LH). When LH levels are increased, the natural production of testosterone also increases. Now one can understand why it has been used to support healthy libido.

We also carry a product called Anabolic Meth-X

This super anabolic complex has:

• 5-Methyl 7-Methoxyisoflavone
• N-Acetyl-Cysteine
• Guggulsterone
• Tribulus
• ZMA
• LPC

Methoxyisoflavone<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Promote more lean mass, increase strength, recovery times, bone mass, and induce a greater state of vitality with this powerful flavone.* All the while without worries of androgenic side-effects. In a nutshell, methoxyisoflavone is a non-hormonal anabolic / anti-catabolic compound.* This powerful flavone has been suggested to support protein synthesis and improve overall recovery from exercise.* Wow!

N-Acetyl-Cysteine<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">NAC supplementation has been surmised to increase lean body mass and act exhibit antioxidant properties, especially in conjunction with exercise.* Tissue damage and a weakened immune system have been found to be the result of intense exercise. NAC works to support normal immune function due to its ability to scavenge free radicals.* It also supports higher levels of in the bloodstream, which has been suggested to help repair damaged tissue.*

Guggulsterones<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Guggulsterones by themselves have been shown to work very well for fat loss Guggulsterones have been shown in studies to affect many biological processes including thyroid metabolism and dermal (skin) function.*

Tribulus<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">It´s for anyone who wants to support increased muscle growth.* Tribulus terrestris is a testosterone promoter.*

ZMA<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Don´t get me started! There is a large body of scientific evidence supportive of ZMA. Zinc and Magnesium are commonly depleted from your body. Studies have suggested that supplementing with 30mg of Zinc and 450mg of Magnesium per day may help elevate testosterone levels!*

LPC<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Lysophosphatidylcholine causes an expansion of the cells in the stomach and intestine walls which has been suggested to support nutrient absorption into the bloodstream.* Perfect!

We also have DHEA

Wow! "Studies have suggested...", "may help", "has been suggested", "testosterone promoter", etc. Sounds impressive without really saying anything. Can you definitely say "Taking 'X' will safely lead to a meaningful increase in testosterone." and can you direct us to credible scientific studies to support that statement?

Yes I never buy into that may do- can do crap also. Not into patches, creams, etc. Ingest it or inject it is the only way to go. Less harmful for liver to inject. Fact is simply buy Testo like Sustanon and take as directed for an immediate boost to your testo (Ingest it) CHEAP approx $40pm. HGH the Sly S fountain of youth and other aging celebrites is Jintropin (Inject it)- stick with name brands, not fake stuff- Yet expensive approx.$300-$400pm.

Chok dee

[chorizo]

Thanks for all the replies..alot to look at.......I had just come back from USA and had my blood work done at local VA Hospital. Doctor suggesting patches(which they may supply..not sure yet) Or injections (to be done in Thailand)....Doc said both will work...he did at one time , mention cremes....btw..psa is very good......as is my health....except for this.....

If i can get it done with patches, that is the way i want to go...to my original post..where to buy in Chiangmai?

I appreciate all information sent.........none said how many treatments and would i quit them after i got to correct level? Or is this a on going thing...

Thanks again...Chorizo

[jayinoz]

Thanks for all the replies..alot to look at.......I had just come back from USA and had my blood work done at local VA Hospital. Doctor suggesting patches(which they may supply..not sure yet) Or injections (to be done in Thailand)....Doc said both will work...he did at one time , mention cremes....btw..psa is very good......as is my health....except for this.....

If i can get it done with patches, that is the way i want to go...to my original post..where to buy in Chiangmai?

I appreciate all information sent.........none said how many treatments and would i quit them after i got to correct level? Or is this a on going thing...

Thanks again...Chorizo

Watch out CMAI girls when u upped ur Testo level- don't overdo do it now- Lol.

Most of the Pharmacies around Thapae Gate supply various Testo enhancers- opp. Thapae Gate, inner moat. They used to our various requests for items most never have or Thais do not request- pain killers, hair gain stuff, beta blockers, testo- u name it. Thus in middle of Tourist area to cater to us... Chok dee

[heybruce]

Thanks for all the replies..alot to look at.......I had just come back from USA and had my blood work done at local VA Hospital. Doctor suggesting patches(which they may supply..not sure yet) Or injections (to be done in Thailand)....Doc said both will work...he did at one time , mention cremes....btw..psa is very good......as is my health....except for this.....

If i can get it done with patches, that is the way i want to go...to my original post..where to buy in Chiangmai?

I appreciate all information sent.........none said how many treatments and would i quit them after i got to correct level? Or is this a on going thing...

Thanks again...Chorizo

I suggest you get a prescription from your doctor and take it to one of the reputable, big pharmacies in Chiang Mai, Boots, PharmaChoice, etc, and ask if they can fill it. They may tell you they don't have the exact medicine your doctor prescribed but have something very similar. At the reputable pharmacies you can probably trust them, in Thailand people need a four year degree, which is really intense at CMU and probably the other schools, and one year internship to become pharmacists. I don't know, but suspect the people in the hole-in-the-wall pharmacies may not be certified to the same high standards.

[november222]

we carry Tribulus Terrestris Extract. It increases testosterone levels in a different way, however, than similar products DHEA or andro. Instead of being a testosterone precursor, it leads to the production of the luteinizing hormone (LH). When LH levels are increased, the natural production of testosterone also increases. Now one can understand why it has been used to support healthy libido.

We also carry a product called Anabolic Meth-X

This super anabolic complex has:

• 5-Methyl 7-Methoxyisoflavone
• N-Acetyl-Cysteine
• Guggulsterone
• Tribulus
• ZMA
• LPC

Methoxyisoflavone<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Promote more lean mass, increase strength, recovery times, bone mass, and induce a greater state of vitality with this powerful flavone.* All the while without worries of androgenic side-effects. In a nutshell, methoxyisoflavone is a non-hormonal anabolic / anti-catabolic compound.* This powerful flavone has been suggested to support protein synthesis and improve overall recovery from exercise.* Wow!

N-Acetyl-Cysteine<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">NAC supplementation has been surmised to increase lean body mass and act exhibit antioxidant properties, especially in conjunction with exercise.* Tissue damage and a weakened immune system have been found to be the result of intense exercise. NAC works to support normal immune function due to its ability to scavenge free radicals.* It also supports higher levels of in the bloodstream, which has been suggested to help repair damaged tissue.*

Guggulsterones<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Guggulsterones by themselves have been shown to work very well for fat loss Guggulsterones have been shown in studies to affect many biological processes including thyroid metabolism and dermal (skin) function.*

Tribulus<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">It´s for anyone who wants to support increased muscle growth.* Tribulus terrestris is a testosterone promoter.*

ZMA<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Don´t get me started! There is a large body of scientific evidence supportive of ZMA. Zinc and Magnesium are commonly depleted from your body. Studies have suggested that supplementing with 30mg of Zinc and 450mg of Magnesium per day may help elevate testosterone levels!*

LPC<br style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; ">Lysophosphatidylcholine causes an expansion of the cells in the stomach and intestine walls which has been suggested to support nutrient absorption into the bloodstream.* Perfect!

We also have DHEA

you 'forgot' to say pm me for a price list. nice one.

Edited October 7, 2010 by november222

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup fellow aging human meat-packages,

We would have qualified "human" with "male human," but we recently just met an older woman who's really into HGH and other "enhancers."

It seems "fair" to us that Khun BillR responded in some detail to being asked by Khun CobraSnakeNeckTie: "Tell us about these testosterone boosters and how they work. Creatine?"

And we sent Khun BillR a PM asking him for links to what appear to be the quotes in his response (denoted by asterisks), to which we've received no reply listing sources.

ioho, Khun BillR would have both been more on-topic, and promoted his business (which seems quite justified in this case) more effectively, by sharing more information about how these enhancers, as Khun CSNT asked, work, or by posting some links, as we requested, to sources (hopefully scientific in the clinical medical sense).

However, we ain't writing this to rag on Khun BillR who we look forward to, when we can afford it, possibly visiting in Phuket, and getting a consultation from, and/or ordering some supplements from. He's probably very, very busy, and we do NOT think he deserved the responses posted here that kind of have the innuendo that he's "selling snake oil."

Also, seem to us, this possible "alternative wisdom" in what you might loosely called the body-building or life extension "arenas," or "communities," may contain a great deal of hard-won practical or heuristic knowledge in the cumulative experiences of someone like Khun BillR, who, we assume, has been involved with this intensely for years. Such knowledge may not lend itself to short explanations.

We think that, as the consumers of services and or medications, it is our responsibility to perform "due diligence" in selecting practitioners, looking at their credentials, mainstream and alternative, seeking out stories from people who've used their services, etc.

Finally, we'd like to say that it is our duo-personal opinion that anyone who self-medicates with hormone modifiers, HGH, etc. without a thorough medical screening first is just plain "nuts."

No one on TV CM, to our knowledge, is qualified to give medical advice. ioho to make statements like "Sustanon will give you all the testo you need" or "HGHs give a good boost- check out Jintropin" is irresponsibile.

Have you ever seen someone using anabolic steroids go from zero-to-sixty in less than one second in terms of becoming violently enraged: we have (it's called 'roid rage').

Have you heard the well documented stories of professional athletes with shrunken testicles, enlarged prostrates, severe heart problems later in life ? We have.

And, while this may seem in contradiction to what we just said, we do believe you have an absolute right to modify your body, or to choose some radical means that increases the quality of your life, as you define it, while perhaps shortening its length. Maybe we can say that because we do not have a family, or children ?

You want to exit mortality, as Dylan Thomas wrote, in the spirit of:

"Do not go gentle into that good night,

Old age should burn and rage at close of day;

Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

IS "that" really up to you ? We could only respond with Bill Clinton's immortal words: "that depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

best, ~o:37;

Edited October 8, 2010 by orang37

[yesterday]

Sawasdee Khrup fellow aging human meat-packages,

We would have qualified "human" with "male human," but we recently just met an older woman who's really into HGH and other "enhancers."

It seems "fair" to us that Khun BillR responded in some detail to being asked by Khun CobraSnakeNeckTie: "Tell us about these testosterone boosters and how they work. Creatine?"

And we sent Khun BillR a PM asking him for links to what appear to be the quotes in his response (denoted by asterisks), to which we've received no reply listing sources.

ioho, Khun BillR would have both been more on-topic, and promoted his business (which seems quite justified in this case) more effectively, by sharing more information about how these enhancers, as Khun CSNT asked, work, or by posting some links, as we requested, to sources (hopefully scientific in the clinical medical sense).

However, we ain't writing this to rag on Khun BillR who we look forward to, when we can afford it, possibly visiting in Phuket, and getting a consultation from, and/or ordering some supplements from. He's probably very, very busy, and we do NOT think he deserved the responses posted here that kind of have the innuendo that he's "selling snake oil."

Also, seem to us, this possible "alternative wisdom" in what you might loosely called the body-building or life extension "arenas," or "communities," may contain a great deal of hard-won practical or heuristic knowledge in the cumulative experiences of someone like Khun BillR, who, we assume, has been involved with this intensely for years. Such knowledge may not lend itself to short explanations.

We think that, as the consumers of services and or medications, it is our responsibility to perform "due diligence" in selecting practitioners, looking at their credentials, mainstream and alternative, seeking out stories from people who've used their services, etc.

Finally, we'd like to say that it is our duo-personal opinion that anyone who self-medicates with hormone modifiers, HGH, etc. without a thorough medical screening first is just plain "nuts."

No one on TV CM, to our knowledge, is qualified to give medical advice. ioho to make statements like "Sustanon will give you all the testo you need" or "HGHs give a good boost- check out Jintropin" is irresponsibile.

Have you ever seen someone using anabolic steroids go from zero-to-sixty in less than one second in terms of becoming violently enraged: we have (it's called 'roid rage').

Have you heard the well documented stories of professional athletes with shrunken testicles, enlarged prostrates, severe heart problems later in life ? We have.

And, while this may seem in contradiction to what we just said, we do believe you have an absolute right to modify your body, or to choose some radical means that increases the quality of your life, as you define it, while perhaps shortening its length. Maybe we can say that because we do not have a family, or children ?

You want to exit mortality, as Dylan Thomas wrote, in the spirit of:

"Do not go gentle into that good night,

Old age should burn and rage at close of day;

Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

IS "that" really up to you ? We could only respond with Bill Clinton's immortal words: "that depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is."

best, ~o:37;

Dear ~o.37 ,After reading your post I had to sign up to reply. I worry about your lack of depth and basic understanding on this current topic of testosterone.

You need to seek medical help since you state "testosterone levels low but o.k. " not o.k.! Your doctor is Thai who does not have a clue about testosterone and certainly it appears nor do you. Here is Thailand the high low scales are quite large ,if they say you are low it is not safe at all.

Seconly, as mentioned above total T and free T you must test both for total really means nothing alone. Quite possibly you have little to no free Testosterone meaning your heart is decaying at accelerated rate as your veins fill with plague .

Be proactive with your health here because ceratinly nobody else will be.

heal yourself .

I enjoy your other post a lot so try to get the needed medical help so you will exist longer so we can enjoy your comments here on TV.

thanks,

yesterday

Edited October 8, 2010 by yesterday

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

The key is really the level of testosterone and it's ratio to estrogen.

There are people like bodybuilders that have abused testosterone and other steroids and had very negative effects but I don't think it fair to malign efforts to maintain an optimal level.

It's kind of like saying one should never drink alcohol because there are examples of people who have abused it and flown into a drunken rage.

The supplement route is attractive because it provides the building blocks and precursors to naturally allow the body to find optimal levels of given hormones.

Just taking the hormone directly might be appropriate in some medical situations but definitely crude and does not address an underlying issue like pituitary imbalance or dietary issues. Just using a hormone could introduce even more unbalance to the endocrine system.

Even relying on medical screening parameters is suspect because by the time the medical establishment considers a test parameter to be "dangerous" then it can often be fairly progressed disease condition.

Edited October 8, 2010 by CobraSnakeNecktie

[yesterday]

The key is really the level of testosterone and it's ratio to estrogen.

There are people like bodybuilders that have abused testosterone and other steroids and had very negative effects but I don't think it fair to malign efforts to maintain an optimal level.

It's kind of like saying one should never drink alcohol because there are examples of people who have abused it and flown into a drunken rage.

The supplement route is attractive because it provides the building blocks and precursors to naturally allow the body to find optimal levels of given hormones.

Just taking the hormone directly might be appropriate in some medical situations but definitely crude and does not address an underlying issue like pituitary imbalance or dietary issues. Just using a hormone could introduce even more unbalance to the endocrine system.

Even relying on medical screening parameters is suspect because by the time the medical establishment considers a test parameter to be "dangerous" then it can often be fairly progressed disease condition.

well stated ! This is my concern with ~O.37 since his Thai doctor told him he was low but O.K. this means no doubt he is sick man once you consider what his free testosterone level is now combined with his estridiol hormones levels. just not good for long,happy rested life .

Proper homone balance is no mystery now and it is the starting point for feeling great ,getting stronger and living longer , anti-aging medicene .

i do not agree with the above statement taking hormone directly .... is crude this is misinformation since once men are in advanced age testosterone replacement therapy which always includes addressing estridiol levels is the only route to health and happiness. The suppliment route is a complete waste of money,time and your health .Someone listed a sale pitch above,run! dinve if you have a real problem this will not correct anything but will give the chap selling this over priced stuff some extra beer money.

. Save your cash and get the real deal,get what the body lacks and needs to be healthy.

yesterday

LEF115964.pdf

Edited October 8, 2010 by yesterday

[orang37]

Dear ~o.37 ,After reading your post I had to sign up to reply. I worry about your lack of depth and basic understanding on this current topic of testosterone.

You need to seek medical help since you state "testosterone levels low but o.k. " not o.k.! Your doctor is Thai who does not have a clue about testosterone and certainly it appears nor do you. Here is Thailand the high low scales are quite large ,if they say you are low it is not safe at all.

Seconly, as mentioned above total T and free T you must test both for total really means nothing alone. Quite possibly you have little to no free Testosterone meaning your heart is decaying at accelerated rate as your veins fill with plague .

Be proactive with your health here because ceratinly nobody else will be. heal yourself .

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Yesterday,

First, we are touched that you would sign up and post your first message to our humble twosome, orang and human, sharing this aging meat-package !

And we feel there is a real spirit of "brotherly (or "sisterly" as the case may be) concern for us expressed, which is deeply appreciated. Other parts of your message feel like a kind of "the sky is falling" fantasia ("veins filled with plague")

But, we are, in fact quite healthy at present (except for rare episodes of insomnia that seem directly related to the aftermath of taking antibiotics). We exercise regularly. We meditate, our diet is quite healthy, if strange, and a bit low on fiber. Our resting pulse, rapid recovery of resting pulse rate from exercise, and low blood pressure testify to a very healthy heart, and last time we had a treadmill test (age 50) we were told we had the "heart of a thirty-five year old" (we didn't ask the question: "a thirty-five year old what ?") because at that time we were only human in here.

Our testosterone was measured by a laboratory in Chiang Mai using the same equipment and scale any lab in America would use, and was quite appropriate for our age-level, thanks. In the absence of any symptomatology, prostrate condition, lack of bone density, etc., it's quite fine. Since we don't experience a decline in "libido" (lust) as a problem, psychologically, but a kind of "blessing" ... we're fine with that, particularly in the context of a perceived greatly increased powers of concentration, memory, and imaginative abilities.

And may we remind (all of us) that for human males decline in testosterone is a natural part of human aging, not inherently a pathology, and that we live in times where the duration of human life has been extended, on average, for so many people, so far in comparison to what it is has been in the rest of human history, that the major "killers" and "medical problems" that take center stage now (cancers, heart attacks, osteporosis, prostrate problems, etc.) have as much to do with extended aging as with lifestyle and diet.

Now, when then there is a real lack of energy, including perhaps some depression, what some have tried to pass off as "male menopause," sometimes testosterone is prescribed as part of a "revitalizing" program (androgen replacement therapy) for older men that may include some psychotherapy, attempts at "lifestyle education," change in diet, and substance use, etc. But we do believe that type of treatment is now "eclipsed" by using psychotropic drugs that raise serotonin in the brain soup by decreasing its uptake by the neurons (did you know that human males on average produce twice as much serotonin as females): we say this without really having "read up" recently on that subject. A "downside" of serontonin uptake inhibitors, of course, often being a sexual desensitization, or loss of libido.

And then we need to distinguish other uses of such drugs for specific sexual conditions such as erectile dysfunction, chronic, perhaps genetically based low testosterone level, etc. For males with prostrate cancer treated by androgen deprivation therapy, testosterone supplements can definitely increase the risk of return and spread of cancer; however testosterone per se as related to prostrate cancer is right now a "hot topic" of debate in modern medicine.

That "allopathic medical treatment" has nothing to do with the alternative use of testosterone, HGH, DHEA, etc. in the worlds of competitive sports, body-building or "life extension," or whatever aging movie stars are doing to delay the inevitable. Nor does it have anything to with "recreational" use of such "temporary stiffeners," as Viagra.

We respectfully propose to you that a major reason for concern with this topic in Thailand is the social phenomenon of lots of aging "alpha males," gay and straight, migrating here because they can still (through financial power, primarily) get access to younger sexual partners. Or .... maybe we should say males with the "endowment" of alpha males, but males who have not had ... or no longer have ... the opportunity to "play out" the role alpha male in their home societies ?

If you want to read an amazing book, by the brilliant English scientist, Steve Jones, may we recommend "Y: The Descent of Men" ? Descent of Men

In that book you will find the most astounding collection of facts, anecdotes, and science that explains most everything known about this fragile screwed up Y chromosome (full of genetic junk and long-ago incorporated parasites refuse) that creates this inferior, but such stronger muscle-wise, version of the female animal known as the "male." And you will read things about testosterone that will "blow your mind" One of which is that essentially, for the male human, it's all downhill after age eighteen or so.

Be well, our friend !

best, ~o:37;

Edited October 8, 2010 by orang37

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun CobraSnakeNeckTie,

note: we put quotes from your message in italics because of TV's limits on number of quotes.

"The key is really the level of testosterone and it's ratio to estrogen."

We'd take this one step further and say the "key" is getting professional advice as to whether you have a problem, and what that problem is (diagnosis), from someone or some institution that understands the complex interdependencies of the adrenal system, the pituitary, the gonads or ovaries, the serontonin and dopamine systems in the brain, etc. And understand those systems in the context of a particular body's age, life history, genetic heritage, lifestyle, etc.

"There are people like bodybuilders that have abused testosterone and other steroids and had very negative effects but I don't think it fair to malign efforts to maintain an optimal level.

It's kind of like saying one should never drink alcohol because there are examples of people who have abused it and flown into a drunken rage."

Completely agree; hope nothing we've said here has appeared to condemn the many for the abuses of the extreme. But what is an "optimal level" is really debatable in this "arena."

"The supplement route is attractive because it provides the building blocks and precursors to naturally allow the body to find optimal levels of given hormones."

Would like to see scientific evidence for the hypothesis proposed here. The human male body is genetically destined for peak testosterone levels early in life, and is destined to have those levels decline with age. This statement suggests some kind of "independenty operating" regulatory intelligence in the body that goes far beyond the ideas of homeostasis. It also ignores psycho-social factors apparent to any student of primate ecology: dominant social status equals more testosterone. Of course in the "human arena" we can, through the magic of culture, sublimate this into psychologically mediated realities like men who are wealthy being perceived as more sexually attractive.

"Just taking the hormone directly might be appropriate in some medical situations but definitely crude and does not address an underlying issue like pituitary imbalance or dietary issues. Just using a hormone could introduce even more unbalance to the endocrine system."

Absolutely agree; there are even more factors to be considered, particularly the adrenal system, ioho.

"Even relying on medical screening parameters is suspect because by the time the medical establishment considers a test parameter to be "dangerous" then it can often be fairly progressed disease condition."

If you are seeing a "modern doctor" with the goals of enhancing your health, in the context of an annual physical check-up, or whatever, we believe, in this day and age, this is a highly questionable, even paranoid statement.

However, if you are talking about the corrupted American Health care system, where the insurance companies are strangling the freedom of doctors in HMOs and large practices, and where so many people are denied essential care for pathology, let alone pro-active care for enhancing the quality of life ... we'd have to, sadly, agree. And that's part of what health care reform should have been about if it were not the political snafu-boondoggle it became.

We'd have no hesitation in saying to our doctor in Chiang Mai: "we think our libido is down; you've checked us out, what do you think about our trying some testosterone supplements;" we predict they'd give us good advice, maybe advise us on some test we might take down the road a few months just to make sure there are no side effects.

best, ~o:37;

Edited October 8, 2010 by orang37

[jayinoz]

Some very good thoughts above... the Op however simply wished to know what to use to increase his Testo. So I gave a suggestion to take Sustanon... albeit I presumed he would take it under medical supervision and be checked out after taking it to see if his levels are all OK. So I did not think it was irresponsible to guide him to the supplements that have been medically and scientifically proven to work.

But certainly I think many people are selling 'Snake oil' like products that do nothing to boost your Testo. So I gave a suggestion that is a very popular and scientifically proven Testo booster and take as directed or directed by your doctor. I did not try to sell him anything like some have... just point the way as requested.

In terms of Human Growth Hormone (Legal in Thailand), there has been a number of studies to prove beyond doubt that it increases muscle mass lost through aging, increases metobolic rate by approx. 500 Cal per day thus you loss fat, not only does it help your waist line but fat stored around organs also, boost in mood, etc. Ultimately a boost to your quality of life and only because of a few abusers is the only reason why it is so restricted in many countries around the world. And that is a shame. Yet it is not restricted in Thailand yet you should be under the supervision of a doctor when taking it. Plus be regualrly checked out.

Roid rage happens to body builders taking HUGE amounts of the stuff, and usually the person was prone to anger anyway. So all these if's and but's are simply to stop people from having a better quality of life. I have seen many people simply seem to come back to life after taking it. It is shown on the BBC in docos as the fountain of youth, for its youthful benefits in body and mind.

Under the right supervision- I am an advocate of Testo + HGH for anyone 40+ yo. By the age of 40 you will approx. 20% down on the levels you where as a 20-25yo man. Women use also yet in smaller doses to turn back the hands of time.

Now the cancer scare off tactic- cancer has struck 'some' extreme body builders, some taking 1000 times the Testo they should. Plus HUGE doses of HGH that are simply toxic. No wonder their body got infested with cancers. No prove linking HGH + Testo boosters have been found under 'NORMAL' usage. Once again the extreme idiots wreck it for the rest of us. The analogy of the Alcoholics making governments around the world stop all people drinking is a good one. Because it is the equivalent- red wine 1-2 glasses per day is meant to be great for your heart, yet 10 glasses will have bad affects on many organs (Including cancer of the liver). Yet Alcohol is not banned. Same with HGH- some countries have banned it because of a tiny percentage of people.

When Sly Stallion got busted in Aussie he thought it was a joke and commented that this stuff will be available over the counter in 5 years. Yet in some countries it already is- yet he obviously has the top medical and scientific doctors telling him exactually how much to take and when- plus exercise routine, etc for his Quality of life and longevity. he is at nearly 65yo looking far younger than his age in body and mind. The stock of HGH popularity would have skyrocketed after Sly made that comment.

See a specialist, get a script and live the best quality of life you can and increase your longevity in the process. Yet you still need to pay out a fair bit monthly privately for the medicine, as naturally no government will subsidize you to live a better life. Most countries it $1000 pm and do not allow you to import, at least in Thailand it half reasonable at approx. $300 pm. As it legal under the right medical supervision and you do not need to be wait until you are sick or on death's door. Chok Dee.:jap:

[uptheos]

Men with low testosterone levels 'are at greater risk of Alzheimer's'

By DAILY MAIL REPORTER

Last updated at 10:48 AM on 6th October.

Older men who have low levels of the male sex hormone, testosterone, are more prone to Alzheimer's disease, experts said today.

The research from Saint Louis University adds weight to previous studies that suggested such a link.

Lead researcher Dr John Morley said: 'Having low testosterone may make you more vulnerable to Alzheimer's disease.

'The take-home message is we should pay more attention to low testosterone, particularly in people who have memory problems or other signs of cognitive impairment.'

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1318143/Men-low-testosterone-levels-greater-risk-Alzheimers.html#ixzz11pGaSmQL

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun JayInOz,

We enjoyed reading your thoughtful, reasonable, response, and you raise some good points; so, in the context of your "expanded explanation," please allow us to humbly retract the adjective "irresponsible" (in our previous message) applied to statements you made; and, replace with it something like "there are those who zealously believe based on personal experience ...," or to interpret your recommendations as a personal testimony to your own positive experience with use of these substances.

Really glad you made clear that such substances should be taken under medical supervision: a problem, ioho, in Thailand is that you can find doctors ... on the cheap here ... who will prescribe anything you ask for (as you could in America if had the $ and you were Michael Jackson or Sly the ex-stallion who refuses to leave the stud farm).

By the way, we personally find such characters as Sly Stallone kind of synthetic culturally-created (via mass media) "living cartoon caricatures" and icons of primate masculinity in its rawest and most obnoxous, least human form ("Nature, red in in tooth and claw"), and while his body may look "younger than expected" to some, we seriously doubt if there's ever been much in or on his mind. And we'd rather have dinner with Kevin Spacey or Liam Neeson anyday

Macho icons like Chuck Norris, Lou Ferrigno, Vin Diesel, Mel Gibson, Jean-Claude Van Damme, Seven Seagall, we find kind of the anatomical equivalent of Lady Gaga in music, but that's not to imply they are all as stupid as we guess Sly is (just as Lady Gaga, if you ever see her doing her solo acoustic piano performance of 'Poker Face' registers on us as 'real talent' ... we assume this was before she became a meat-puppet for the same kind of vast advertising and pr machinery that propelled the talentless Madonna into 'going viral' as an archetype of slut). Not sure if we can post YouTube links here, but just Google: lady gaga "poker face" unplugged ... completely turned our perception of what she's capable of around.

As we said before, we respect the right of individual choice to engage in body modification that involves risk; even though we'd be inclined to question the motivation for this and the psychological reasons for such use in every single case except where such therapy was part of a medically supervised treatment for a specific pathological condition. But, imagine a family with five children, and a father who gets "into" such drug use in their late forties as their libido and testosterone naturally drops off even further: does his family have a "stake" ... or any "rights" ... in his taking a risk that may deprive his children of years of having a father ? We don't have any answer to that question !

However, we personally believe that there are many other valid scientific reasons HGH and other hormone replacement or hormone-enhancing drugs are under strict supervision in most countries in the world (countries, which, unlike Thailand, have long traditions of highly developed clinical research standards, peer-reviewed journals, etc.)

When you say: "Under the right supervision- I am an advocate of Testo + HGH for anyone 40+ yo. By the age of 40 you will approx. 20% down on the levels you where as a 20-25yo man. Women use also yet in smaller doses to turn back the hands of time," we experience that as a "true believer's" statement of faith.

To get to the nitty gritty: most males taking these supplements (not being treated for medically diagnosed pathologies) take them for increased sexual drive and performance as they age, and that leads, for us, to the interesting sticky-rice metaphysical question of what is appropriate aging. While this is not the place for a discussion of certain ancient models of the "stages of human life" (such as the five ashramas as found in Hinduism, or the 12 year "cycles" found in Thai Theravadan Buddhist culture ), or even the modern models of such luminaries as Erik Erikson ...

For us, appropriate aging, at this point, is to have less "lust," be less "driven" by the one-track-minded lizard between our male legs, have more peace of mind, a quieter mind, greater curiousity, less restlessness and desire to take risks Which does not imply being weak physically, being tired mentally, being diminished in vitality !

And we delight that, by accident of having tongue cancer, and our current meat-package ... being "divorced" from the "entire universe of taste, hunger, and appetite," at thirty pounds lighter than most of its adult life ... seems to have greatly increased powers of concentration, memory, and creativity. Yet there has been no loss of the preciousness of human warmth, affection, and contact: au contraire: much more. Of course we cannot underestimate the impact of the quantum singularity that brought our dying Orang's soul and mind to co-habit this dying human body's soul and mind in the depths of a Bangkok subway under construction ... and "resurrected" both of us into a chimeric twosome ... and we can't understand it, either

Wish we could loan you this wonderful book by Dr. Steve Jones we mentioned in another post on this thread: because we think you'd be mesmerized by what you'd learn about the Y chromosome, maleness, and testosterone, but, dam_n it, we loaned it to a friend, and can't remember who (so much for increased memory power .

best, ~o:37;

Edited October 9, 2010 by orang37

[cloudhopper]

our "mental faculties:" concentration, and short- and long- term memory seem to be better (at age 1877 moons) than they were 120 to 180 moons ago.

Can you remember how long a moon is?

Not a test just curious about the time interval you are describing.

[orang37]

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun UpTheos,

That same study you linked to, of 153 Chinese men, minimum 55 years old, 47 of whom had some form of "mild cognitive impairment," but not dementia, a study of only one year's duration, is also reported (perhaps with a bit more depth ?) here: WebMD report on Chinese Study and here MedIndia Reportage

The WebMD reportage includes: "Free testosterone level was one of only three independent predictors of progression to Alzheimer’s disease in the study. The others were high systolic blood pressure and presence of the apolipoprotein E (ApoE) protein genotype, which is an established genetic risk factor for Alzheimer’s disease."

While there is information that the Chinese men were living in the community, and were recruited from community social centers, there is no information given on what life-styles, dietary patterns, or career histories, exposure to pollutants, etc., subjects may have shared, or what common or variant local neighborhood environmental conditions existed in the geographic area from which subjects were recruited (this information may be available in the full study to be published in the on-line Journal of Alzheimer's Research ?). The article is "in press," and not available for full viewing yet, but here's the abstract: Chu, Tam, et. al. Study : you'll need to scroll way down the page to find it.

The researcher Morley who's quoted in the popular press articles was not the lead researcher on this project: it was Professor Chu. And Morley's recent work has focused on Omega-3's and Alzheimer's. One might guess that it would be of great interest ... to Morley ... to examine the men in this study (93.5%) who did not "progress" to Alzheimer's for a diet relatively richer in fish.

best, ~o:37;

"trust nothing, question everything" ... attributed to Kabbalah tradition ...

[jayinoz]

Khun Orang37,

You supply many good pts, my only issue is your reference to WE WE WE- who you speaking for- THE WORLD...

Many of us (General in sense) admire the Sly S, Claud Van damme's, etc- as they are the best in their field... They are entertainers- sure and some of the biggest names in the world. I doubt they have no brains as they built their empires from nothing. Sly wrote Rocky and starred in it to make his name.

To a lesser extent Claude has wrote and directed- so just because you have muscles does not mean you are stupid. Many of us hitting the gyms to enhance our bodies will disagree. Mind and body needs to be active always- once one stops then it will slowly die IMO.

Anyway the rich in fish- I am an advocate....Plus many other points you make are very good. Except implying muscles = dumb.

Cheers Jay :jap:

[yesterday]

Khun Orang37,

You supply many good pts, my only issue is your reference to WE WE WE- who you speaking for- THE WORLD...

Many of us (General in sense) admire the Sly S, Claud Van damme's, etc- as they are the best in their field... They are entertainers- sure and some of the biggest names in the world. I doubt they have no brains as they built their empires from nothing. Sly wrote Rocky and starred in it to make his name.

To a lesser extent Claude has wrote and directed- so just because you have muscles does not mean you are stupid. Many of us hitting the gyms to enhance our bodies will disagree. Mind and body needs to be active always- once one stops then it will slowly die IMO.

Anyway the rich in fish- I am an advocate....Plus many other points you make are very good. Except implying muscles = dumb.

Cheers Jay :jap:

Dear org.~.37,

I do enjoy your writting but not this particular thread.

What are you doing? You are all over the map on this one my friend . Very ,very defensive .Why?

Bob wrote, "don't criticise what you don't understand."

The post was about testosterone and where to get it . andriol testicaps 40mg blue box -main macro 750 baht for a months supply ,this andrial is gel caps that by passes the liver works thru the lymph glands . It works very well.

Do try hard not to write a book back but instead use the precious energy to go get well.

Worrying about healthy men with better bodies than yourself solves nothing.Just make an effort ,spend a little money to get the help you need , get healthy and enjoy yourself more.

Edited October 13, 2010 by bazmlb