"Living Walls" And Urban Gardening

[JimShortz]

At the school where I work, here in Chiang Mai, we are aiming to make our campus as green and as sustainable as possible over the coming months and years.

Our campus in many ways could be described as "inner city" - with very little in the way of space to achieve these aims. Our initial idea is to make as much use of vertical space as possible. We plan to create "living walls" that would look beautiful, as well as insulating classrooms from the sun and reducing our need for air conditioning. We also plan to grow herbs and vegetables, again using some form of "vertical gardening".

Do any TV members have expertise that they would care to share?

What plants would be suitable for covering large concrete surfaces of buildings? Where in Chiang Mai might we go for advice? Where should we buy the plants from?

[GUANO]

This could be of help

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/featured/moss-grass-graffiti/2147

GUANO

[cmsally]

Lots here:

Green walls

[JimShortz]

They are great links. Thank you so much for sharing.

Are there any plant experts out there with knowledge of native plant species that we could use in creating gree/living walls?

[orang37]

... snip ... Are there any plant experts out there with knowledge of native plant species that we could use in creating gree/living walls?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun JimShortz,

Suggest you PM DrTreeLove here on this forum; he is a world-class authority on landcaping, tree care, etc. And a very friendly person who loves to share his knowledge.

best, ~o:37;

Edited November 12, 2010 by orang37

[drtreelove]

... snip ... Are there any plant experts out there with knowledge of native plant species that we could use in creating gree/living walls?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun JimShortz,

Suggest you PM DrTreeLove here on this forum; he is a world-class authority on landcaping, tree care, etc. And a very friendly person who loves to share his knowledge.

best, ~o:37;

Thanks O37, but I'm more of a tree, landscape, orchard maintenance specialist, not as strong on design and plant selection. My father was the landscape architect in the family, I was the landscape contractor and tree service.

But Eric and Ketsanee of Dokmai Garden are now doing plant selection advisory and some garden design. And of course Dokmai Garden is one place that JimS could see examples of native and exotics growing; and Dr Eric is a walking encyclopedia of plant species knowledge for local conditions. www.dokmaigarden.co.th Also, Queen Sirikit Botanical garden up Mae Sa valley past the elephant camp has a climber/vine section and lots more.

Off the top of my head Jim, what you can plant to cover a wall depends a lot on two major factors, 1. What kind of planting condtions exist or can be created (is there enough space to plant trees, or will you be limited to vines, is there a soil planting bed or do you need to construct boxes and import soil) and 2. support - if a vine, how is it going to be supported on the wall. For example, two common plants used locally are Ficus pumila or repens (fig vine or ton tokay or jimjok) which clings to the wall without mechanical support; and Bouganvilla (fueng fah) which needs support.

Be sure to consider maintenance in your planning and plant selection - who is going to water, fertilize, inspect for pest control, trim, adjust supports, clean up dead leaves, and what kind of equipment will be needed. Can it be done from ladders or will an aerial lift truck be needed. Some times even the most knowledgable plant selection people don't adequately consider what maintenance headaches and expense they are creating.

My friend Greg is Mr Bamboo of Sydney Australia. Take a look at his website www.mrbamboo.com to see how they use the vertical growth habit of certain bamboos to create privacy screens and green walls. don

Edited November 12, 2010 by drtreelove

[xen]

Maybe this is more what the OP is talking about when he talks about living walls .

I took these photos last week in the Paradise Centre in Srinakarin Rd , just down from the Seacom Square. It is very well done so perhaps if it is what you are considering you may contact the management of the centre to find out more information. There is a French artist whose name escapes me at the moment but he has done some massive ones in Melbourne last year.

.The plants are planted into rock wool or a medium that may consist of coco peat, Styrofoam or rice husks. A drip sprinkler system then slowly dribbles water down the wall. I would guess that nutrient would be included in the water. Plants are often succulents or bromilaids.This one is indoors but in other places are on the exterior of walls. It is still quite experimental at the moment to what works and what doesn't . I attended a lecture on living walls about 6 years ago and they were using only bromilaids at that stage .

If this is what you are after, PM me and i will dig out some leads and websites for you.

[dokmaigarden]

Dear Jim,

Most welcome to Dokmai Garden, Chiang Mai. We have nearly 1000 tropical plants on display, of which 500 are signposted with names and facts in three languages. We have about 100 climbing species, so we should be happy to give suggestions. Open Tue-Sun 10-17.

Cheers, Eric Danell, scientific consultant

www.dokmaigarden.co.th

www.dokmaidogma.wordpress.com

[drtreelove]

Good photos and an interesting display Xen; I think I'll take a look when in Bangkok next week.

I haven't worked with this kind of 'green wall' but it looks like a big budget project and a maintenance intense nightmare; probably needs daily attention and frequent plant replacement. Like the moss graffiti it's trendy stuff and gets the big oo ah and awards for the designer and marketing attention for the business for awhile, but how practical and sustainable is it for a school with a limited budget?

IMHO and from the perspective of a professional plant problem trouble shooter, the most cost effective and sustainable approach would be to plant well chosen tree species - if there is space for adequate soil volume to accomodate a healthy root zone and room for them to grow to maturity without having to be mutilated/topped every year. Trees have many well known benefits for the immediate property and for the larger community. With less soil volume and space for tree canopies, then shrubs and vines may be the most practical.

Whenever you have to build planter boxes, wall or roof structures and supports and use aerial lift equipment, the cost for construction and maintenance skyrockets. And without providing for the educated, skilled maintenance needed, the plantings soon begin to deteriorate in health and function. don

[xen]

Good photos and an interesting display Xen; I think I'll take a look when in Bangkok next week.

I haven't worked with this kind of 'green wall' but it looks like a big budget project and a maintenance intense nightmare; probably needs daily attention and frequent plant replacement. Like the moss graffiti it's trendy stuff and gets the big oo ah and awards for the designer and marketing attention for the business for awhile, but how practical and sustainable is it for a school with a limited budget?

IMHO and from the perspective of a professional plant problem trouble shooter, the most cost effective and sustainable approach would be to plant well chosen tree species - if there is space for adequate soil volume to accomodate a healthy root zone and room for them to grow to maturity without having to be mutilated/topped every year. Trees have many well known benefits for the immediate property and for the larger community. With less soil volume and space for tree canopies, then shrubs and vines may be the most practical.

Whenever you have to build planter boxes, wall or roof structures and supports and use aerial lift equipment, the cost for construction and maintenance skyrockets. And without providing for the educated, skilled maintenance needed, the plantings soon begin to deteriorate in health and function. don

It may be pedantics but maybe we should be talking about vertical gardens rather than "Living Walls" and i agree with you entirely about the maintenance issues and there have been many failures worldwide with the "Living Walls" .

I have helped on a couple of projects in Community garden and schools about vertical gardens in limited space areas like side corridors and in concrete play space courtyards. Vertical gardens can be as elaborate or as simple as required but "Living Walls" are big budget stuff like you said . Vertical Gardens can be as simple as fruit cartons on shelving with a good gardening media , to custom made Hydroponic set ups., similar to those on sale for balcony's to provide culinary herbs "Living Walls have been used , not only as art spaces but for climate control in "Green Buildings". The concepts could be interchangeable as desired with effort little.

I love trees too and , yes there are the immense benefits from trees , but on re-reading the OP i get the image that it may be space restricted just from the description of "inner city" . Bamboo,like you suggested is a great plant for narrow space, but with vines i am always hesitant because so many vines can end as being environmental weeds if allowed to escape, for example the morning glories.

Perhaps the OP could give us a bit more background info so we know how to give him help.

[JimShortz]

Thank you to all of the posters for what is turning into a very interesting discussion, with knowledgeable people generously sharing what they know. :jap:

I think, however, that I was a bit confused about the terminology for gardens against/on walls of various types... Not my speciality - just yet! We should be talking about vertical gardens rather than "Living Walls". Thank you for clearing that up for me.

Okay some more detail info then...

It's Lanna International School that I work at. If any of you know it you will know it has very little green space within the campus. Our aims with this project are pretty varied, and as far as I understand it from the committee that's working on this (I'm not a member of that group):

We would like the place to look more green, and so be a more pleasant and attractive environment for both staff and students to spend our days in.

We would like to work towards a more sustainable campus (we are aware that we have no chance of becoming anywhere near "sustainable" in an environmental sense, but we would like to head a little in that direction). Providing "green" shading on/against/in front of the hotter walls may be one way to reduce how hard the air conditioning needs to work, and so reduce our energy consumption a little.

We would like to grow a small amount of organic vegetables and herbs. These could be consumed within the school, and could also be used as a teaching tool, especially with the younger kids who love to get out and get their hands dirty!

Taking on board what you guys are saying then, it seems that the best option for us would be trees along the hotter walls, where space allows, with bamboo used in narrower spaces. These I guess would both be pretty low maintenance, and depending on species choice could actually be productive. Mangio trees certainly grow large enough to provide excellent shade. Does anyone know how long it takes to get a mango tree up to a decent height to provide single storey building shade?

Unfortunately for some of our walls vines/climbers may be the only option, with vegetables grown in containers/hangers/something else as yet to be decided, on the lower part of the wall. Any advice on how to sort out the containers/hangers would be much appreciated guys!

Given that we will need to grow vines/climbers (native species wherever possible, as a good choice from an ecological stand point). Does anyone have any recommendations on species? Which species need support/which ones don't? How would we construct support to be both attractive and not prohibitively expensive?

The issue of maintenance that several of you have mentioned is something that I guess we need to put considerable though into. We do have several gardeners/grounds staff and this project has been discussed with them. They have been brought on board quite easily (to the concept at least) as they actually would like the place to look nicer too, but also through the suggestion that they will sell produce to the kitchen at the going rate and then share the proceeds amongst themselves. After all, they are doing all of the extra work.

I know the owners of the school will be concerned about and negative effects that plants could have on the buildings render coating. This concerns me too - we want to make the place nicer, not wreck it!

I also know that they won't be able to spend vast sums on support structures for climbers, so we are going to have to work within these constraints... It has also been pointed out that plants attract insects, and could provide homes for snakes! I don't really know how big either of these issues are in reality, but I would be interested to hear other's opinions on the issue of keeping the school a safe place. We certainly don't want to start providing residencies for hordes of mosquitoes and snakes!

My apologies for the endless questions, but I guess there's quite a bit to think about! Thanks for reading this far...

[SomchaiCNX]

Xen is probabely talking about a French guy Patrick Blanc guy who was one of the first in Europe. his site has an English version.<BR><A href="http://www.murvegetalpatrickblanc.com/#/en/home">http://www.murvegetalpatrickblanc.com/#/en/home</A><BR><BR>So if you search in French for "mur vegetal" you will find a lot of extra information.<BR><BR><A href="http://www.google.co.th/images?hl=en&rlz=1R2GGLL_en&q=mur+vegetal&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=Ji_eTKSfDIy6vQPU6MSlDg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=2&ved=0CCkQsAQwAQ">http://www.google.co.th/images?hl=en&rlz=1R2GGLL_en&q=mur+vegetal&um=1&ie=UTF-8&source=univ&ei=Ji_eTKSfDIy6vQPU6MSlDg&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&ct=title&resnum=2&ved=0CCkQsAQwAQ</A><BR><BR>I have been looking at this concept for about a year now, to prepare for my very limited garden.<BR>Species that do fine on rocks are preferred. In Europe it is indoors and I have the impression that they use a lot of plants native to this region. I'm looking for more techical details to make the wall. So Eric they are not really climbing plants. Anyway I was planning to contact Eric for hel;p as well.<BR><BR><BR>

[justmaybe]

One totally non-professional and free idea is to ask parents who are living in local moobans with decent landscaping to look around see what solutions others have reached. If they see privacy screens or green solutions they think might work ask them to snap a picture or two for you to pass along to the foregoing experts. A couple of years ago a friend who needed quick-growing privacy screens took that route. A few months and a very few thousand baht later had just what he wanted. Naturally you won't start planting in a schoolyard without vetting from professionals regarding possible toxicity of plants, but it could be a cheap way to at least get started and a nice way to keep the school community involved. It could maybe be a good student project.

[drtreelove]

I'll offer some input on some issues.

Vegetables and herbs need full sun for most of the day, so plan the location of your organic garden appropriately.

A mango tree can grow to shade tree size in 4 or 5 years (10 for sure), but that is dependent on what size you start with and growing conditions (soil fertility, water, absense of machete-happy workers).

A vine that clings and doesn't need support (like ton jimjok, fig vine) will most likely deteriorate the paint on a wall if not the rendering (stucco to Americans). Vine supports can be relatively simple and inexpensive, with wire or wood or metal framework, but must be adequate to support the eventual weight of the mature growth, which can become massive with some voluminous vines. On one story walls I have constructed free standing wooden trellises with some separation from the wall (architectural screen), or with hinged bases and detachable upper anchor points, so that the entire thing could be separated from the wall for cleaning, painting and other maintenance. Otherwise, you pretty much have to give up the paint job in a trade-off for the vine.

Mosquitos control is an issue with dense plantings, they will harbor on the moist surfaces of tree and shrub leaves, but a control program is possible with diligent attention to elimination of standing water and possible use of non or least toxic control measures. But with organics or pyrethroids it takes weekly treatment. The problem is, even if you are diligent your neighbors are not, and that complicates matters. And the municipal authorities seem only to have an inadequate program dependent on fogging diesel oil with pesticide once or twice a year if at all.

The more dense the ground-level plantings the more potential habitat for critters, good and not-so-good, bugs, rats, snakes, etc. But some of these balance out, snakes eat rats, some bugs eat other bugs, your students can learn about ecosystems and biological control For this to work, a lot has to do with well thought out planting, diligent maintenance/sanitation and IPM (integrated pest management); not too likely with uneducated, minimum wage workers and if there is no one on staff with environmental studies background to take the lead and do the right thing. Usually fear of things that sting, bite and look scary wins out with poisons and concrete, and living things lose. don

[ProThaiExpat]

I have an east facing wall in my driveway area that I first used a yellow climbing plant so prevalent in Thailand and it was fine but grew too fast, required too much water and was just to abundant for my taste.

I then spotted a low wall adjoining the Lanna Gold Course which had what I would call "grape ivy", that climbing plant so prevalent in England and covering whole buildings. This plant clings to the wall when left alone and seems to be able to creep for many meters.

While I installed a drip system but it failed when I was away for two years and the grape ivy did better without me. When I returned, without added water, it covered the entire wall and some of my house and the adjoining common wall as well.

I have to give it a "hair cut" every few months to keep it tight to the wall and discourage tendrils that grow out away from the wall.

Once this plant is established, it is very hardy and requires no care other than pruning, which just means clipping it to within a few centimeters of the wall.

It is not a particularly difficult plant to find and quite inexpensive to buy. I bought mine at the nursery area behind Tesco in Chiang Mai on the Super Highway.

I would go to the trouble of providing a photo and posting it except I doubt there are many human beings in the western world who have not seen this great climbing wall huger on a building somewhere. The only thing that surprised me was its lack of need for watering in Thailand and the fact that it gets sun for three quarters of the day and still thrives. For some reason I thought of it as a cold weather, low sun climber.

I get nothing but compliments for how attractive my driveway wall looks without having to paint it every two years.

[keo]

LOL @ machete happy workers!

Interesting topic.

I've got a ชำมะนาด (cham-ma-nad) growing on an inexpensive bamboo trellis.

http://toptropicals.com/cgi-bin/garden_catalog/cat.cgi?uid=Vallaris_glabra

Looks great, smells great, easy to look after, grows quickly.

Dok Mai Gardens is defo worth a visit IMO.