Wife Says Viktor Bout 'Card In Political Game'

[mca]

One note, that perhaps some might not know since Bout is repeatedly mentioned as the source for the movies protagonist, is that the main character is a mash-up if 5 (not 1) international arms-dealers. One of them being Leonid Minin,

Spock from "Star Trek "?

[cdnvic]

Stick to the topic please, most posts are criticizing each other, not discussing the subject.

[LaoPo]

The bottom line, does Lao PO think Victor should be allowed to sell arms to anyone he wants to? Yes or no. It is not a complicated question.

I suggest you read my previous posts a little better; the answers you're asking for were answered already.

Read better.

LaoPo

Sorry. Too much to read. I assume you don't want Victor to sell weapons. So in the end analysis you think the US did the right thing. Kind of the same reasoning as Mussolini did make the trains run on time.

No, in the end analysis, as I explained a few times before, I disagree with the way America/CIA operates on foreign soil. There's no other country in the world which could have accomplished the action with Bout, in Thailand, other than the USA.

Can you magine any foreign country, operating undercover on US soil, having someone arrested in the US by US Police and than let the US Courts decide if that person should be extradited to the first country?

Let it be clear that I disapprove of all weapons' production/sales/ transactions, legal or illegal and that includes Bout.

LaoPo

[whybother]

What if the Australian police got a pedophile arrested in Thailand by the Thai police and extradited to Australia based on their laws on child sex I'm foreign countries?

[cdnvic]

Didn't I just ask you to stop taking digs at each other? Last post deleted. No more warnings.

[mark45y]

I must say this thread has had a positive effect on my. I have learned a lot about Victor Bout. He is a fascinating man. He changed sides almost as often as the original Merchant of Death Basil Zaharoff. I knew a lot about the original Merchant of Death because I read every book available about the man. A lot of people think he started WW I for profit. I don't know. Maybe.

It has always bothered me that they stole Zaharoff's name, Merchant of Death and pinned it on Bout.

But, that said Bout changed sides like a snake changes skins. He worked for the Russians and then sold arms to their deadliest enemies. And still lived. He did the same with the Americans and the Afghans. This guy ran arms for everyone and against everyone.

Interpol was after him and the British Special forces tried to arrest him in Athens Greece and only missed him by 90 minutes and it looks like the Americans tipped him off that the Brits were waiting for him. Or the Russians no one knows for sure. Interpol was after him, Belgium, and the UK were after him and the Americans were after him and god knows who else.

I am sorry if I have offended anyone posting in this thread. It was not my intention to do so. I would like to thank everyone for posting because from a personal standpoint I have learned a bit more than I knew yesterday.

The real "Merchant of Death"

[LaoPo]

What if the Australian police got a pedophile arrested in Thailand by the Thai police and extradited to Australia based on their laws on child sex I'm foreign countries?

You can discuss that here:

http://www.thaivisa....l-exploitation/

But...to answer you:

your example is a 2-way police system agreed upon by both countries.

The Bout case was a three nation-involved arrest and disagreed upon by one, Russia, whilst the other, Thailand, was forced upon the arrest by the third party, the US

But you could read the same sentence -with other countries- as follows:

The XXX case was a three nation-involved arrest and disagreed upon by one, Australia, whilst the other, Luxembourg was forced upon the arrest by the third party, Thailand.

See how stupid this looks?

Let me give you other examples.

1. A dual citizen of both Argentina and The Netherlands, a highly qualified Pilot -on his last flight- with a commerical airline in Holland was accused (by Dutch fellow pilots) of being a member of aircraft crews, flying heavy transport planes over the ocean near Argentina during the dirty regime in the '70's, dropping drugged innocent victims of the regime from the airplane....never to be found again; Thousands of them.

He was accused without any evidence; yet he was arrested in Spain INSIDE his commercial airplane, due to leave for Amsterdam again. Arrested because of the wrong accusations and asked for by Argentina.

The Dutch "accusers" refused to travel to Spain recently, to testify at a hearing by Argentinian Judges, because they were afraid they could be arrested (by Spanish Police, upon request of the Argentinian Judges) and sent to Argentina for accusing -wrongly- one of Argentina's citizens.

I know this is not the same as in the Bout case, but I'm just trying to "paint" a 3-nations arrest and how terribly wrong those arrests could end.

2. The other case is a 2-nation arrest and about an American citizen, now in Australia, convicted and sentenced to jail, for murder on his Honeymoon bride (drowning her whilst diving) IN Australia's waters.

Now, the American prosecution wants this guy back and likely sentence him to death for the same crime.....

Australia, so far has refused to send the guy back since they want FEDERAL guarantees that he will not get the death penalty.

Is it OK to bring this American guy to court in the US -once more- for a crime he committed in a foreign country, and where he was convicted for his crime, spending time?

I'm happy I'm not the judge.

LaoPo

Edited November 18, 2010 by LaoPo

[LaoPo]

I would like to thank everyone for posting because from a personal standpoint I have learned a bit more than I knew yesterday.

Don't we all?

I do, and if someone says the opposite he's dumb....

The fabulous thing about internet is that the speed we all learn -more- every single day is, that the internet supplies us with information streams, so huge that many of us can't even comprehend the influence of those information streams.

We save so much time every day, enabling us to study and learn more than 20 years ago, making our brain more flexible and therefore, also live longer; but to explain that we need another topic.

LaoPo

[animatic]

The bottom line, does Lao PO think Victor should be allowed to sell arms to anyone he wants to? Yes or no. It is not a complicated question.

I suggest you read my previous posts a little better; the answers you're asking for were answered already.

Read better.

LaoPo

Sorry. Too much to read. I assume you don't want Victor to sell weapons. So in the end analysis you think the US did the right thing. Kind of the same reasoning as Mussolini did make the trains run on time.

No, in the end analysis, as I explained a few times before, I disagree with the way America/CIA operates on foreign soil. There's no other country in the world which could have accomplished the action with Bout, in Thailand, other than the USA.

Can you magine any foreign country, operating undercover on US soil, having someone arrested in the US by US Police and than let the US Courts decide if that person should be extradited to the first country?

Let it be clear that I disapprove of all weapons' production/sales/ transactions, legal or illegal and that includes Bout.

LaoPo

Oh, you mean like Mexico DEA operating with USA DEA in USA

and capturing Mexican nationals and Honduran nationals on

conspiracy charges to commit drug and weapons offenses in

USA, Mexico and Honduras and then extraditing the Hondurans

to Mexico for trial there on the Mexican charges...Oh right,

who could imagine this stuff happens.

[animatic]

The guy who allegedly drowned his wife on their honey moon Is wanted for insurance fraud through murder on a USA citizen trying to get US insurance he took out on her just before they married. So it is presumed and charged that the 'chain of crimes leading up to and culminating in her murder', started in the USA, before they even married. Coldly calculated 1st degree murder for profit.

Interpol is based on the premise of international arrest warrants, and the ability of member countries to charge ANYONE who committed or conspired to commit a crime against their nationals, to be captured and extradited to the charging country.

Bout is charged with conspiracy to aid those who have a history of attacking and killing USA officers working in S. American countries, and as such is charged with conspiracy to murder American soldiers and DEA and other federal agents.

He is charged with trying to procure Surface to Air Missiles, the only use for which is to shoot down planes. Hence the reasonable presumption that selling them to FARC, is with the intention or expectation, that FARC uses them, as designed, in their fight against the elected government of Columbia and the DEA forces fighting with the Columbians against the drug cartels.

Edited November 18, 2010 by animatic

[craigt3365]

Don't forget your country was going after this guy also...and initiated the first Interpol arrest warrant. Maybe it's just a case of the US helping the Belgians?

I think your comments about Thailand being stupid are inappropriate. Come on...that's a bit rough. You really are anti USA, aren't you?

To clarify a few things: I'm not from Belgium, I'm from The Netherlands.

Secondly, no I'm not anti-USA although I have been accused of being so many times on this forum.

Some Americans are alike GW Bush's comment he made after the horrible 9/11 attack: "If you are not with us you are against us" which many considered as a silly statement and I agree with that.

If I criticize some American aspects or actions I am qualified as anti-America? How silly. If you criticize some aspects/facts in Thailand, are you anti-Thai...?? same-same silly.

As explained many times before, the US is a great nation with many impressive facts. That doesn't mean that many other facts are disapproved by many people in the world.

The US has some 4,5% of the world's population and they should learn to accept that there are 95.5% people left in the world and that a certain amount of people disagree with some of the American thoughts, facts and actions.

If one disagrees he/she isn't automatically anti-American.

LaoPo

Apologizes about your country of origin! :jap: But my comment still stands, you are anti-American. Your posts prove that. You make one to support the US, but many to bash it. Sorry, but that is how I read it.

I'm amazed at the number of people supporting Bout and against the US. Unreal. No argument, he is a bad man. No way to say any thing other than that. But he is being held up as the one being taken advantage of. I just don't understand.

I 100% agree the US is not perfect. And has done many things that are not very good. But so has every other country in the world. Netherlands included. What's wrong with taking a bad man off the streets? Mai Khao Jai. :jap:

Edit: and here is a news report of those dang Australians butting into Thailand's biz. Unreal. If it was the US, there would be a whole crew bashing the US. Sorry, but this is the truth....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/418238-aussies-help-thai-police-battle-sexual-exploitation/

Edited November 18, 2010 by craigt3365

[jackspratt]

The guy who allegedly drowned his wife on their honey moon Is wanted for insurance fraud through murder on a USA citizen trying to get US insurance he took out on her just before they married. So it is presumed and charged that the 'chain of crimes leading up to and culminating in her murder', started in the USA, before they even married. Coldly calculated 1st degree murder for profit.

The American guy has already been charged, tried, convicted and sentenced for the crime which was committed in Oz, under Australian law - a legal system I would humbly suggest is at least the equal of, if not far superior to that existing in his home country. No elected judges, publicity seeking DA's looking for elected office etc etc, if you get my drift.

Does the concept of double jeopardy not exist within US law. If they want to put him on trial for insurance fraud, so be it. As for the murder charge, it is yet another example of the extra-territorial jurisdiction the US awards itself - because it believes it can.

As far as Bout is concerned, clearly it is a case of the successful privateer coming up against the might of the world's largest arms dealer. Should he be taken out - yes. But who is to deal with the hypocritical country that is doing the taking?

[animatic]

The guy who allegedly drowned his wife on their honey moon Is wanted for insurance fraud through murder on a USA citizen trying to get US insurance he took out on her just before they married. So it is presumed and charged that the 'chain of crimes leading up to and culminating in her murder', started in the USA, before they even married. Coldly calculated 1st degree murder for profit.

The American guy has already been charged, tried, convicted and sentenced for the crime which was committed in Oz, under Australian law - a legal system I would humbly suggest is at least the equal of, if not far superior to that existing in his home country. No elected judges, publicity seeking DA's looking for elected office etc etc, if you get my drift.

Does the concept of double jeopardy not exist within US law. If they want to put him on trial for insurance fraud, so be it. As for the murder charge, it is yet another example of the extra-territorial jurisdiction the US awards itself - because it believes it can.

As far as Bout is concerned, clearly it is a case of the successful privateer coming up against the might of the world's largest arms dealer. Should he be taken out - yes. But who is to deal with the hypocritical country that is doing the taking?

First off not all judges are elected.

The point is he was charged and convicted for ONE of his crimes in a one man plan,

and not all of them. He has not been tried for the crimes committed in USA yet.

So there are no ex. DA's or equivalent in higher office in OZ???

Double jeopardy if in the USA, yes, if under the same jurisdiction. But some can get acquitted in state court

and get convicted later and sentenced correctly in Federal courts for the same actions. But true not again in the STATE court.

It depends on the nature of the charges.

Yes, the USA believes that taking a USA citizen across national lines to murder them for profit is breaking USA laws.

Extraterritorial jurisdiction is perfectly legal of the corresponding country also has agreements to honor the same.

Regardless of their conviction, he is still wanted in USA for the charges stemming from his starting the chain in USA.

And he being a USA citizen.

The arrest was made by Thailand.

At request of USA who filed charges against him for conspiracy against USA citizens.

Thailand agreed to arrest him, ads have been done to other people like pedophiles.

The only rub was that Russia stuck it's nose in to protect it's interests.

[jackspratt]

The guy who allegedly drowned his wife on their honey moon Is wanted for insurance fraud through murder on a USA citizen trying to get US insurance he took out on her just before they married. So it is presumed and charged that the 'chain of crimes leading up to and culminating in her murder', started in the USA, before they even married. Coldly calculated 1st degree murder for profit.

The American guy has already been charged, tried, convicted and sentenced for the crime which was committed in Oz, under Australian law - a legal system I would humbly suggest is at least the equal of, if not far superior to that existing in his home country. No elected judges, publicity seeking DA's looking for elected office etc etc, if you get my drift.

Does the concept of double jeopardy not exist within US law. If they want to put him on trial for insurance fraud, so be it. As for the murder charge, it is yet another example of the extra-territorial jurisdiction the US awards itself - because it believes it can.

As far as Bout is concerned, clearly it is a case of the successful privateer coming up against the might of the world's largest arms dealer. Should he be taken out - yes. But who is to deal with the hypocritical country that is doing the taking?

First off not all judges are elected.

The point is he was charged and convicted for ONE of his crimes in a one man plan,

and not all of them. He has not been tried for the crimes committed in USA yet.

So there are no ex. DA's or equivalent in higher office in OZ???

Double jeopardy if in the USA, yes, if under the same jurisdiction. But some can get acquitted in state court

and get convicted later and sentenced correctly in Federal courts for the same actions. But true not again in the STATE court.

It depends on the nature of the charges.

Yes, the USA believes that taking a USA citizen across national lines to murder them for profit is breaking USA laws.

Extraterritorial jurisdiction is perfectly legal of the corresponding country also has agreements to honor the same.

Regardless of their conviction, he is still wanted in USA for the charges stemming from his starting the chain in USA.

And he being a USA citizen.

The arrest was made by Thailand.

At request of USA who filed charges against him for conspiracy against USA citizens.

Thailand agreed to arrest him, ads have been done to other people like pedophiles.

The only rub was that Russia stuck it's nose in to protect it's interests.

What crime(s) committed in the US is he to be tried on when he gets back to Alabama?

If it is murder, he has already been tried and convicted in the jurisdiction in which the offence occurred. That is double jeopardy.

The equivalent of a DA in Oz would be the Director of Public Prosecutions, and I am not aware of any standing for a higher public elected position after finishing as DPP. There are a number however who have been appointed to the bench as judges - based on their legal acumen, and certainly not as a result of their public posturing while acting a DPP.

The fact that any single judge is elected is an affront to any legal system as far as I am concerned.

Perhaps Russia "stuck its nose in" to protect the interests of one of its citizens - that certainly wouldn't be unheard of.

The hypocrisy issue seems to have eluded you.

[whybother]

What crime(s) committed in the US is he to be tried on when he gets back to Alabama?

If it is murder, he has already been tried and convicted in the jurisdiction in which the offence occurred. That is double jeopardy.

The equivalent of a DA in Oz would be the Director of Public Prosecutions, and I am not aware of any standing for a higher public elected position after finishing as DPP. There are a number however who have been appointed to the bench as judges - based on their legal acumen, and certainly not as a result of their public posturing while acting a DPP.

The fact that any single judge is elected is an affront to any legal system as far as I am concerned.

Perhaps Russia "stuck its nose in" to protect the interests of one of its citizens - that certainly wouldn't be unheard of.

The hypocrisy issue seems to have eluded you.

Actually, he plead guilty to manslaughter in Aus. Not sure if that makes a difference. I also don't know how double jeopardy applies in relation to countries outside the US, but I suppose it depends on the sentence served O/S.

It also seems that Gabe Watson will not be extradited to the US (which makes it *completely* OT for this thread). He will be deported from the Aus. And he is facing different charges in the US.

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/honeymoon-killer-gabe-watson-to-be-tried-in-alabama/story-e6freoof-1225942960589

Watson's lawyers say Watson is in double-jeopardy since he has already been prosecuted for the crime, and Alabama has no jurisdiction.

Prosecutors counter that Watson is facing different charges in a different jurisdiction and they have evidence he plotted the murder in Alabama.

[mark45y]

Think how many people this animals weapons for profit antics have killed -

right....

http://en.wikipedia....defense_budgets

I'm happy the weapons by legal producers and exporters don't kill

The hypocracy is literally dripping from this topic.

LaoPo

That's the point. Legal suppliers vs. illegal. Would you want everybody to be able to distribute these kinds of weapons? It's bad enough the major powers do it...can you imagine if every Viktor Bout could do it? Absolute Mayhem.

You can't compare both: legal versus illegal producers and exporters since the latter will be absolutely in the minority although every gun is one too many.

I am opposed to ALL guns and weapons wherever in the world and whoever is producing them.

The US is by far the largest producer and also (as far as I know) the only country in the world where the number of private citizens carrying so many guns is so huge.

I understand it's anchored in the Laws of the USA by means of the Second Amendment to have the ability to carry/posses weapons but it also creates the most deadly killings in the western civilized world.

Of course men like Bout should not exist and all the attention is now to his person and past but that doesn't mean I'm not opposed to the powers, used, to get him were an abuse of powers by the USA.

Not another single country in the world could have accomplished this action.

I'm very curious how Russia will respond and the first signals on television in Europe are not very promising for a better relationship between the US and Russia as well as between Russia and Thailand.

I also blame Thailand for it's dumb reaction to have foreign secret agents operate on their soil, enabling the arrest of Bout, but on the other hand I don't think the US could have find another, even more stupid, country to cooperate with them trying to lure Bout.

The USA certainly showed their balls in Thailand but Idoubt very much if any European country would have massaged the US balls

LaoPo

I think you take an unrealistic view of weapons sales.

For example the Netherlands is the 6th largest exporter of weapons in the world.

The top five include Germany, France and the United Kingdom.

The top fifteen include Italy, Sweden, Switzerland and Canada.

Stockholm International Peace research Institute.

The largest importers of weapons are India, Singapore and Malaysia.

In terms of crime, take the Netherlands again. The Dutch Central Bureau for Statistics has crime numbers online, but not the crime rate. The table shows 101,143 violent crimes and 919,262 property crimes in 2001. With a population of 16,171,520 (September 2002), this works out as 625.4 violent crimes per 100,000 people and 5684.4 proprety crimes. Or, to put it differently, the violent crime rate in the Netherlands in 24% higher than in the US, and the property crime rate is 55% higher.

More guns, less crime. What a surprise.

November 05, 2002

Guns and crime in the Netherlands

The US has supplied some 480 B61 thermonuclear bombs to five non-nuclear NATO countries including Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey. In the Netherlands they are stored Volkel Air Base and are for use by the Royal Netherlands Airforce.

In summery if one looks at the complicated world of arms manufacture and sales and even nuclear weapons almost everyone is involved. Agreements for arms and nuclear weapons are complex. I think Thailand is only one example. Influence and weapons and arms sales are everywhere. To say that Thailand or the US stand out alone is not accurate. The same thing could of happened almost anywhere in the world.

[animatic]

Mark, well put,

[LaoPo]

Oh, you mean like Mexico DEA operating with USA DEA in USA

and capturing Mexican nationals and Honduran nationals on

conspiracy charges to commit drug and weapons offenses in

USA, Mexico and Honduras and then extraditing the Hondurans

to Mexico for trial there on the Mexican charges...Oh right,

who could imagine this stuff happens.

Next door operations and not to be compared with the Bout case.

Try European operations on US soil; African, Asian, Oceanian...

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

I think you take an unrealistic view of weapons sales.

For example the Netherlands is the 6th largest exporter of weapons in the world.

The top five include Germany, France and the United Kingdom.

The top fifteen include Italy, Sweden, Switzerland and Canada.

Stockholm International Peace research Institute.

The largest importers of weapons are India, Singapore and Malaysia.

In terms of crime, take the Netherlands again. The Dutch Central Bureau for Statistics has crime numbers online, but not the crime rate. The table shows 101,143 violent crimes and 919,262 property crimes in 2001. With a population of 16,171,520 (September 2002), this works out as 625.4 violent crimes per 100,000 people and 5684.4 proprety crimes. Or, to put it differently, the violent crime rate in the Netherlands in 24% higher than in the US, and the property crime rate is 55% higher.

More guns, less crime. What a surprise.

November 05, 2002

Guns and crime in the Netherlands

The US has supplied some 480 B61 thermonuclear bombs to five non-nuclear NATO countries including Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey. In the Netherlands they are stored Volkel Air Base and are for use by the Royal Netherlands Airforce.

In summery if one looks at the complicated world of arms manufacture and sales and even nuclear weapons almost everyone is involved. Agreements for arms and nuclear weapons are complex. I think Thailand is only one example. Influence and weapons and arms sales are everywhere. To say that Thailand or the US stand out alone is not accurate. The same thing could of happened almost anywhere in the world.

Why are you putting so much time in reading, studying and answering to my posts about weapons when you forgot the major part in my post:

"I am opposed to ALL guns and weapons wherever in the world and whoever is producing them."

You are taking this far too personal, trying to find comparisons in crime rate between 2 countries, mine and yours.

Let me say it one more time: if I am criticizing whatever system, acts or other facts by a certain country, I am NOT anti- this particular country; the same as I'm not anti-American*

Yet, you spent a lot of time, trying to counter-criticize my points.

What a waste of time...your own precious time, not my time since it took me exactly 1,5 minute to write this; too many seconds actually

* If I would write and criticize Ben S. Bernanke and the American FED system (which I did before)...am I considered to be anti-American or would this be only "reserved" to Top Republicans from the US and/or citizens of the USA ** ?

How silly.

** http://www.thedailyc...05/Politics/eml

LaoPo

[animatic]

Oh, you mean like Mexico DEA operating with USA DEA in USA

and capturing Mexican nationals and Honduran nationals on

conspiracy charges to commit drug and weapons offenses in

USA, Mexico and Honduras and then extraditing the Hondurans

to Mexico for trial there on the Mexican charges...Oh right,

who could imagine this stuff happens.

Next door operations and not to be compared with the Bout case.

Try European operations on US soil; African, Asian, Oceanian...

LaoPo

Ok, lets compare it to the relatively recent history of Indonesia

and it's attempts to recover from Dutch colonialism and weapons sales on a grand scale.

Why does 'next door' change the facts of crossing international borders

and international agreements on crimes and criminals?

Hint: Honduras is not right next door.

[animatic]

The guy who allegedly drowned his wife on their honey moon Is wanted for insurance fraud through murder on a USA citizen trying to get US insurance he took out on her just before they married. So it is presumed and charged that the 'chain of crimes leading up to and culminating in her murder', started in the USA, before they even married. Coldly calculated 1st degree murder for profit.

The American guy has already been charged, tried, convicted and sentenced for the crime which was committed in Oz, under Australian law - a legal system I would humbly suggest is at least the equal of, if not far superior to that existing in his home country. No elected judges, publicity seeking DA's looking for elected office etc etc, if you get my drift.

Does the concept of double jeopardy not exist within US law. If they want to put him on trial for insurance fraud, so be it. As for the murder charge, it is yet another example of the extra-territorial jurisdiction the US awards itself - because it believes it can.

As far as Bout is concerned, clearly it is a case of the successful privateer coming up against the might of the world's largest arms dealer. Should he be taken out - yes. But who is to deal with the hypocritical country that is doing the taking?

First off not all judges are elected.

The point is he was charged and convicted for ONE of his crimes in a one man plan,

and not all of them. He has not been tried for the crimes committed in USA yet.

So there are no ex. DA's or equivalent in higher office in OZ???

Double jeopardy if in the USA, yes, if under the same jurisdiction. But some can get acquitted in state court

and get convicted later and sentenced correctly in Federal courts for the same actions. But true not again in the STATE court.

It depends on the nature of the charges.

Yes, the USA believes that taking a USA citizen across national lines to murder them for profit is breaking USA laws.

Extraterritorial jurisdiction is perfectly legal of the corresponding country also has agreements to honor the same.

Regardless of their conviction, he is still wanted in USA for the charges stemming from his starting the chain in USA.

And he being a USA citizen.

The arrest was made by Thailand.

At request of USA who filed charges against him for conspiracy against USA citizens.

Thailand agreed to arrest him, ads have been done to other people like pedophiles.

The only rub was that Russia stuck it's nose in to protect it's interests.

What crime(s) committed in the US is he to be tried on when he gets back to Alabama?

If it is murder, he has already been tried and convicted in the jurisdiction in which the offence occurred. That is double jeopardy.

The equivalent of a DA in Oz would be the Director of Public Prosecutions, and I am not aware of any standing for a higher public elected position after finishing as DPP. There are a number however who have been appointed to the bench as judges - based on their legal acumen, and certainly not as a result of their public posturing while acting a DPP.

The fact that any single judge is elected is an affront to any legal system as far as I am concerned.

Perhaps Russia "stuck its nose in" to protect the interests of one of its citizens - that certainly wouldn't be unheard of.

The hypocrisy issue seems to have eluded you.

He was tried on manslaughter charges. But in a different jurisdiction.

As if it were an accidental or negligent death.

Now he is likely to be tried on intentional 1st degree murder charges, because that is what he is believed to have done. He is considered to have gotten away with 1st degree murder with an 18 month sentence for another crime, and the crime is believed to have been planned in USA and he went to Oz to avoid getting charged for doing it at home. But the death penalty is off the table. he is being extradited.

Oh and I am not for elected judges either. It's supposed to keep them honest, but just makes them observant of political numbers. I have never lived in and state with elected judges.

Edited November 18, 2010 by animatic

[mark45y]

Response to LP.

I am not taking a shot at anyone. But 1.I feel it is fair to say that most everyone who reads this forum's home country is probably in the top 15 arms producers in the world.

2.Crime exists with guns or without guns.

3. The treaty obligations of the NATO and SEATO and all the other organizations outside of China and Russia and the rouge states make enforcement of laws across borders a relatively common day to day operation and not unusual.

People might as well face reality. Your countries are all involved in arms sales and nothing in the near future is going to change that. Wishing for it not to be so is nice buy mostly a fairy tale kind of existence. I live in the real world.

[MAJIC]

Think how many people this animals weapons for profit antics have killed - no sympathy from me sorry, dont care what happens to him - if the Russians cant win the dirty tricks game they cry - "not fair" well this time a poison tipped umbrella WONT set the record straight Putin!!

Exactly! one less arms dealer in World,cant be a bad thing.

[craigt3365]

For example the Netherlands is the 6th largest exporter of weapons in the world.

Becareful, LaoPo will have to start critising his own country!

Let's be realistic. International police operations happen on a daily basis...and involve most countries in the world...voluntarily. And it's a good thing as crime and corruption are a global problem. You can't fight crime like this on a local level. It requires cooperation among nations. Nations which request the help from other nations. Such as the US and the Dutch. Viktor got caught in this type of operation. Ain't that great! One less bad egg out there. This is not political, it's criminal. But the Russians want to make it look political as they have no other leg to stand on.

Viktor and the Russians sound like Jatuporn and the reds...asking why their people are in jail when all they did was protest peacefully...right....

[mca]

Viktor and the Russians sound like Jatuporn and the reds...asking why their people are in jail when all they did was protest peacefully...right....

Good man craig. I've been waiting for somebody to bring the red shirts into a completely unrelated thread.

[craigt3365]

Viktor and the Russians sound like Jatuporn and the reds...asking why their people are in jail when all they did was protest peacefully...right....

Good man craig. I've been waiting for somebody to bring the red shirts into a completely unrelated thread.

Please is all mine! I was trying to come up with an analogy, and had just read the report about Jatuporn possibly heading to jail...just stuck in my mind...sorry!

[mca]

[LaoPo]

Oh, you mean like Mexico DEA operating with USA DEA in USA

and capturing Mexican nationals and Honduran nationals on

conspiracy charges to commit drug and weapons offenses in

USA, Mexico and Honduras and then extraditing the Hondurans

to Mexico for trial there on the Mexican charges...Oh right,

who could imagine this stuff happens.

Next door operations and not to be compared with the Bout case.

Try European operations on US soil; African, Asian, Oceanian...

LaoPo

Ok, lets compare it to the relatively recent history of Indonesia

and it's attempts to recover from Dutch colonialism and weapons sales on a grand scale.

.

..if the member you're answering to is from France, UK, Spain or any other country, are you dragging their former Colonies into the duscussion as well? You might as well talk about American Colonialism as well...maybe study a bit?

Weak attempt answering properly.

Not that I am not ashamed about my forefather's actions in our former colonies...I am ......you might as well punish me for the dispicable actions of my Dutch forefathers, bringing African slaves to your country.......as well.

I'm able to talk more fair about (the actions of) my own country than most Americans about their own country.

My toes are not as long...

LaoPo

[LaoPo]

For example the Netherlands is the 6th largest exporter of weapons in the world.

Becareful, LaoPo will have to start critising his own country!

I just did but most of you don't have the balls to do the same about your own country

It's about the lenght of your own toes.

LaoPo

Edited November 19, 2010 by LaoPo

[LaoPo]

Response to LP.

People might as well face reality. Your countries are all involved in arms sales and nothing in the near future is going to change that.

I'm afraid you're right and that's a bitter shame.

The world (read: Homo Sapiens) is not able to self-control because of money, power and greed; not necessarily in that order though.

However, we should be wary for the ones that are strongest, forcing their will and powerss upon other smaller and weaker nations, groups and/or individuals but at the same time creating shady and misty environments and circumstances, hiding their own goals, only to create (more) power.

LaoPo