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Chang Mai 's Insect (beetles)

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I'm sure you won't miss a species of beetle when they go or will it really affect you that much? Let's get things in perspective :o

That's what they said about the Dodo...... :D

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I'm sure you won't miss a species of beetle when they go or will it really affect you that much? Let's get things in perspective :o

That's what they said about the Dodo...... :D

Well, Do-do-do you miss it?

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I'm sure you won't miss a species of beetle when they go or will it really affect you that much? Let's get things in perspective :o

That's what they said about the Dodo...... :D

Yeah, you're right and that is sad that the tub of lard went out at our hand, but millions of species come and go and maybe our dodo friend was on his way out anyway. Sounds bad I know but that's the way we are and the guy crying over some beetles in jars just seems a tad off tangent. Lets concentrate on the big issues.

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I'm sure you won't miss a species of beetle when they go or will it really affect you that much? Let's get things in perspective :D

That's what they said about the Dodo...... :D

Yeah, you're right and that is sad that the tub of lard went out at our hand, but millions of species come and go and maybe our dodo friend was on his way out anyway. Sounds bad I know but that's the way we are and the guy crying over some beetles in jars just seems a tad off tangent. Lets concentrate on the big issues.

well, surely enviroment is imoprtant. BUT as many have pointed out here - nowdays it is affected from many other different directions and on much bigger scale.

yes, Forest dep. as well as other institutions such as CITES for example are supposedly those which protect species - or at least must make some sort of show that the work on it is being done. however the very meaning of even CITES - is that it is some sort of international body ABOUT TRADE of species. in other words - they claim to be the only authority to decide which species can be traded, and which not, and on which conditions etc. boiling it down to essence - it is just a group of people MONOPOLISING this trade. and surely a lot of shadow business is going on "behind the curtains" there - since they hold the monopoly. doesn't mean that if some species proclaimed protected and restricted for trade - it is stoped. common ! the higher demand - the higher stakes , always has been in human society, especially among those people who knows where the realy good profit is. surely trade on such species continues - the only visible part of this iceberg of Trade of Endangered Species (second half of CITES abbreviation) is that for the general public it is restricted and unaccessable; it goes among high bidders, because after all the price is very very good, huh ?

but suppose another group of people decide to create alternative body and claim to be real / actual authority on this matter ?

like I have spoken here in Bkk with guy, perhaps biggest collector in SEA - he said that many species which proclaimed protected / endangered / restricted - are not. but of course he too must comply with these imposed laws.

another trend iws - there are a LOT of people who has started farms or nurseries for alive bugs and butterflies. seems like OP is one of such - I think I even know him, or another one who is also from Hong Kong and said is is number one supplier in China (well, everyone wnats to be #1, right ? :D ). so, those species which traditionally are considered rare and endangered - ar not anymore, because they are breeded in safe and comfortable for them enviroment almost anywhere in the world - even in those countries which don't have tropical climate. live bugs, butterflies and invertabrates are kept as pets - one of the latest fashion too. pupae of rare exotic butterflies is sold on-line or exchanged between collectors.

so, as saying goes - the more restrictions and limitations - there always be more ways around them. such is cunning human nature, which opposes any kind of limitations.

as for extinct of those species which are realy endangered..... yeah, sure must be some concern about it and endeavors to preserve them as "heritage" etc. for "future generation". but then - certain HUMAN species become extinct too. and those who might not be extinct - are neglected and suffer a lot. so, while huge monies might be assigned to those projects for preserving of endangered species - what about those many humans who are uncared for ?

so, this is very controversial subject. even old uncle Darvin said that netural selection let only the strongest survice (perhaps Dinosours were'nt that stron after all, huh ? :D ) - so, may be it is true as someone said here that may be some of these bugs would perish anyway.....

but I don't agree that THE ONLY solution to preserve those "endangered" species is - IF this trade is stoped. because it simply won't - even that Forest dep. itself and / or CITES would continue to do it anyway. whatever brings good steady profit - would never be stoped - be it drugs (opium wars in China, Golden triangle, war on drugs in Thailand, current attempts to control poppy crops in Afgan .... all is ONLY about - WHO will control that trade; not about stoping it) or prostitution or any other kinds of big profit trade. it is human nature - always to crave for what is rqare, restricted, forbidden, unattainable - "on the other side of road"..... so, although I am not propagating here anti-preservance of species - no amount of indignant exclamations in fat bold red font is gonna change it ! sorry ! rather I think such attampts as above mentioned - professional breeeding by institutions and / or individuals will do the real job of preserving endangered species. and it is going on already anyway - and no CITES nor Forest dep. no anyone else would be able to stop it simply because species can't belong to any particular group of people. same as that battle with Napster and similar companies - about MP3s P2P sharing - people just get more clever and develop better means of continuing doing same thing.... :D:o

Edited by aaaaaa

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yes, Forest dep. as well as other institutions such as CITES for example are supposedly those which protect species  - or at least must make some sort of show that the work on it is being done. however the very meaning of even CITES - is that it is some sort of international body ABOUT TRADE of species. in other words - they claim to be the only authority to decide which species can be traded, and which not, and on which conditions etc. boiling it down to essence - it is just a group of people MONOPOLISING this trade. and surely a lot of shadow business is going on "behind the curtains" there - since they hold the monopoly. doesn't mean that if some species proclaimed protected and restricted for trade - it is stoped. common ! the higher demand - the higher stakes , always has been in human society, especially among those people who knows where the realy good profit is. surely trade on such species continues - the only visible part of this iceberg of Trade of Endangered Species (second half of CITES abbreviation) is that for the general public it is restricted and unaccessable; it goes among high bidders, because after all the price is very very good, huh ?.....SNIP.........  :D:o

I have had to take several deep breaths and wait a while before replying to this ridiculously stupid post. Had I not, my invective might have blown the board.

People involved with CITES are generally so involved because they have a deep commitment to the wildlife under protection. Profit is not and never could be a motive.

I held a CITES 1 licence for many years. I was involved in a breeding programme for desperately endangered birds and animals, which ended only when one of your illegal "traders" burgled the programme, stealing sixteen babies and killing all older, chipped animals. (They were chipped to "protect" them from being traded and thus worth nothing to the burglars.)

In all the time I was involved with this programme, I never bought or sold a single specimen, although they were regularly traded. If another breeder needed a male or female to improve their genetic diversity, I, or another breeder, sent one. No charge, just the understanding that they would help me out in somilar circumstances.

The total value of the stolen and killed "stock" would have been something over 200,000 pounds sterling, a value only realized because an illegal "trader" was more interested in his own greed than in the future of our planet.

This attitude makes me truly sick.

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oops, seems like some mighty SUPER Mod got angry and even called me stupid...

thanks - after all you must utylise advantage of your position as Mod around here, right? coz I can't call you stupid if I don't want troubles .... so, have your righteous anger justified by such name calling edging on direct insult .... never mind.

you might be one honest person involved in it, as no doubt there are many others. doesn't necessary mean all are such.

although the main point wasn't realy that - but that such institutions monopolize trade and the autority of deciding what is or not rare and endangered..... and I didn't intend any insult directly or indirectly to anyone, especially in person, especially to you even if you weren't a SUPER MOD - don't know why you feel so pissed off, assuming that I exposed YOU personally as unscrupulous dealer - did I realy ? :D

furthermore, I had never been involved in any poaching or illegal trade or whatever such things - which you said make you sick. so, please don't hate me ! :D I only wrote what I've heard from a person who is legitimate collector and by chance happened to be renown author of many books on Thai specimen....

and last - I said such restrictions won't help much as those projects undertaken by those who try to breed endangered species. because many people would do it anyway despite restrictions. I merely pointed to reasons why it won't stop in this way - doesn't necessarily mean I support those people who are reason for that illegal trade ....

oh, and BTW - one more thing came to my mind : for many people in this region insects are food. I saw in Chiang Rai , Mae Sai and many other places people keep beetles as pets or for gambling - those frerocious fighting Gideon rhino beetles; and many other kinds of beetles are sold openly on fresh veggies market. so, what CITES or Forest dep. can do about it ? those people who catch and sell them are usually some ethnic groups or hill tribes. they eat these bugs, they often are illiterate and poor and hardly have even Thai IDs, and government anyway won't even bother to stop them from catching these bugs (may be won't even know) - because otherwise they'd grow more serious stuff like marihuana and / or poppies - you know ? and that makes much more harm to humanity etc. - and much more illegal and worrisome for government....

here is one article for you :

Harvesting insects - a growing industry in Cambodia

[I think same is for Laos, Myanmar, Vietnam, S. China and whole region - aaaaaa]

cc11_1_32.gif

Insects are attracted to the light, hit the white sheet and drop into the water-filled collecting tray

these people don't have enough money for basic education (to be able to read smart books about endangered species), or even better food and / or living; for them it is - FOOD !

Insects are nutritious and rank with fish as a source of protein. The Institute of Nutrition at Thailand's Mahidol University estimates that the edible tissues of insects contain up to 20 percent protein. Why insects are not more widely eaten in western countries "is pure caprice", according to the author of a study on Indian insects. "Mankind eats many curious things, including oysters, shrimps, whelks and cockles, dried sea slugs and birds' nests … and yet there is an absurd prejudice against insects." This prejudice is not apparent in Asia where insects are widely eaten, with the practice well documented in Viet Nam and Thailand. But little has been published about the industry in Cambodia.

and for those who catch insects and sell and cook - it is a source of income, because it is FOOD for many their fellow villagers. so, say if they would become just a little bit educated (like most probably our friend marcoc apart from many others does now - he "educates" or initiates some of those aborigenes into intricacies of international species trade ! :D ) and learn that such and such beetle is RARE (well, after getting some idea of what is considered RARE - coz they see these bugs whole life in plenty....) and can fetch price which would be enogh to buy a car or a house or more ? what do you think? would they agree with you or CITES that - no, should let this bug fly away, because we must preserve our heritage ?

alright, I know I'm stupid because you told me so - which automatically means you are very intelligent. so, mister - PLEASE use your high IQ brains or at least common sense. what do you think - would those people stop insects trade id they get educated about CITES and endangered species ? otherwise you might go and see for yourself and may be manage to talk to such guys as the one of the photo and call him stupid and see his reaction. most probably he would laugh in your face and argue the point that these beetles are rare (even if they are according to CITES).

who knows - perhaps OP marcoc is also being hungry and just wanna establish steady healthy protein rich diet for himself and his fellow chaps in HK - not tries to start some illegal trade ! as I know chinese out there are too like all sorts of wierd things in their menu ! :o

so, mighty MOD, please save your holy rage to some more relevent situation or direction or person ! I agree with you - SPECIES MUST BE PRESERVED - and never even suggested otherwise. you could've read my post with closer attention - after all, it is essential part of your work as MOD, reading CAREFULLY people's posts and be objective in your judgements - not subjective on assumed facts or misunderstandings which happened because of unattentive reading ! :D chill down - peace, man !

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