Teaching On A Tourist Visa

[Esoterik]

So I've been teaching for three months now on a tourist visa without any issues. I'm on my second one now because the agency couldn't get the stuff together in time for me to apply for a work permit.

Today my head of department said the government had asked them for my work permit. I just wondered what the risks were and with how much urgency I should be treating this?

I’ve only got another month to do before I leave the country and I’m reluctant to spent another 4k+ on a second visa trip.

[gotlost]

You are working Illegally and subject as such.

[Mario2008]

The law states that working without a work permit carries a prison term of up to 5 years and/or a fine of up to 100,000 baht.

5 years is unrealistic, but the consequences can be serious. Most times it involves a lot of money, but being deported and blacklisted is a real possibility.

[Esoterik]

Hmm ok thanks.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Esoterik

[jdinasia]

Hmm ok thanks.

How much more informative do you want them to be? It depends on WHO in the government wants to see your WP. If the school hired you from an agency that promised them a WP'd teacher then the agency isn't keeping up their end of the contract.

They can simply terminate you and move on.

You can tell them the truth.

You can refer them to the agency.

In the end YOU are the one working without a WP and that means you have the most to lose.

[Lite Beer]

Also working without the correct visa.

[beano2274]

Many teachers are working on Tourist visas, even those in Language centres, I know a lot who also work part time for major schools in Bangkok. At language centres they never check passports as an old friend of mine has been on overstay and working at a big one for a few months now (overstay approx 6 months).

Yes you need a WP, but most of these agents promise to get you one, but it never materialises. It is and always will be a problem.

[Mario2008]

And sometimes a place does get raided by immigration.

[Semper]

Leave the country ASAP

[bangkockney]

The law states that working without a work permit carries a prison term of up to 5 years and/or a fine of up to 100,000 baht.

5 years is unrealistic, but the consequences can be serious. Most times it involves a lot of money, but being deported and blacklisted is a real possibility.

This is the most extreme of punishments and reserved for people who take on job on the restricted list.

Penalties for working without a work permit or doing work not specified in one's permit include imprisonment not exceeding 3 months or a fine of up to Baht 5,000, or both.

People who do work reserved solely for Thais are liable to imprisonment of up to 5 years or to a fine from Baht 2,000 to Baht 100,000, or both.

A company or employer that hires a foreigner without a valid work permit is subject to more severe penalties, i.e., imprisonment not exceeding 3 years or a fine of up to Baht 60,000, or both.

[Mario2008]

Actually, the regulations seems to prefer that you pay a fine and leave the country without the case going to court.

[elliss]

You can refer them to the agency.

In the end YOU are the one working without a WP and that means you have the most to lose.

the agency ,

dont give a monkies ,

many farangs are teaching under the radar

[jdinasia]

the agency ,

dont give a monkies ,

many farangs are teaching under the radar

Many are --- and? If they get caught, one would assume they won't come on here crying about it.

Agencies --- some care, some don't.

[Esoterik]

Thanks for the replies guys. Agency seems pretty casual about it. They have been absolutely awesome until now and I'm fairly confident in them.

Might as well do what I can to get it all straightened out, especially if I wan't to keep working here.

[thailandbluegrass]

Yes the law states that you must have a WP to work but in order to get that WP you need a non-B visa SO, to get that you need your paperwork from the company that hired you (or the agency).

Just as the Laws in Canada state that: You cannot carry a bucket of water across any road between the hours of 7:00am to 8:00om and from 4:00pm to 5:00pm (This is due to travel via horse but is 100 years old) the law is still in effect but is never applied and is very “dusty”.

Now I have been here for 10 years and have had several jobs and not once have I ever had, seen or heard of ANYONE getting a WP “BEFORE” they commenced to work. NO company would or will ever do this so the “laws” are put aside for these reasons and the following normally occurs:

1. Apply for a job

2. Get the job

3. Sign a contract (many scum agencies won’t)

4. Start to teach

5. Get the paperwork for your non-“B’ visa

6. Do the visa run and come back with your non-“B”

7. Keep working while company/agency applies for your WP

In fact many scum agencies or private language schools do the following;

1. Interview you and tell you they will help you with your visa and WP.

2. Tell you they will sign a contract after 30 – 90 days probation

3. Let you teach

4. When you ask them if the paperwork is ready for your non-“B” because your Tourist visa is about to run out they say “oh sorry they are so busy, get another “T” visa and we will have it ready soon

5. When you finally realise that they are stringing you along and you confront them, they fire you and say that “you are a trouble maker”

6. Hire a new teacher for another 3 – 6 months and continue.

7. After you call the labour board and they contact these scum agencies/private schools your school just tells them “ohhh we never have a contract with him. Who is he? He show you contract?”

Did your scum agency/school begin with "S" and end with "AM" ?

[jdinasia]

You don't need a non-B visa to get a work permit.

[Phatcharanan]

Yes the law states that you must have a WP to work but in order to get that WP you need a non-B visa SO,

The so called 'law' that you refer to states that you need to have a Non Immigrant visa.........it does not specify a B.

I have a WP on a Non Imm O visa.

[Soutpeel]

Now I have been here for 10 years and have had several jobs and not once have I ever had, seen or heard of ANYONE getting a WP "BEFORE" they commenced to work. NO company would or will ever do this so the "laws" are put aside for these reasons and the following normally occurs:

1. Apply for a job

2. Get the job

3. Sign a contract (many scum agencies won't)

4. Start to teach

5. Get the paperwork for your non-"B' visa

6. Do the visa run and come back with your non-"B"

7. Keep working while company/agency applies for your WP

Well I dont know who you have been working for as the process in my experience is:

1. Apply for the job

2. Get the job

3. Company applies for the WP and provides the receipt along with the other paper work as justification for issue of your Non-imm B

4. Go and get your Non-imm B (Generally a rather pleasant over night stay in Singapore)

5. Return and start work (permissible and legal as "under consideration")

6. 7-14 days later - Blue book handed over

Therefore in the scenario above, no laws are put aside

BTW

Contracts generally are not worth the paper they are written on anyway....

[Scott]

If someone has asked for your WP, that is a big red flag. Immigration does and is doing raids on schools. A school I am affiliated with recently got raided and a number of people with incomplete paperwork were caught.

How incomplete the paperwork is, I don't know, because the employees were not arrested. My guess is the school ended up paying a fair amount of money.

My Director asked me to check the paperwork on all our teachers. The Director seemed concerned and concern is something that involves money for her.

I know of another school the immigration visited and checked the paperwork on all the employees. At that school a number of employees didn't have work permits, but they were all at various stages in the process of getting a work permit. Immigration left without causing a problem for either the administration or the teachers.

If you are leaving the country, you might be able to fly under the radar, but personally, I would be worried. Best of luck and keep us informed.

[Rumpole]

In fact many scum agencies or private language schools do the following;

1. Interview you and tell you they will help you with your visa and WP.

2. Tell you they will sign a contract after 30 – 90 days probation

3. Let you teach

4. When you ask them if the paperwork is ready for your non-“B” because your Tourist visa is about to run out they say “oh sorry they are so busy, get another “T” visa and we will have it ready soon

5. When you finally realise that they are stringing you along and you confront them, they fire you and say that “you are a trouble maker”

6. Hire a new teacher for another 3 – 6 months and continue.

Not only agencies and language schools. A couple of the so-called prestigious university use this modus operandi too. Or at least, they used to.

Edited January 25, 2011 by Rumpole

[thailandbluegrass]

Now I have been here for 10 years and have had several jobs and not once have I ever had, seen or heard of ANYONE getting a WP "BEFORE" they commenced to work. NO company would or will ever do this so the "laws" are put aside for these reasons and the following normally occurs:

1. Apply for a job

2. Get the job

3. Sign a contract (many scum agencies won't)

4. Start to teach

5. Get the paperwork for your non-"B' visa

6. Do the visa run and come back with your non-"B"

7. Keep working while company/agency applies for your WP

Well I dont know who you have been working for as the process in my experience is:

1. Apply for the job

2. Get the job

3. Company applies for the WP and provides the receipt along with the other paper work as justification for issue of your Non-imm B

4. Go and get your Non-imm B (Generally a rather pleasant over night stay in Singapore)

5. Return and start work (permissible and legal as "under consideration")

6. 7-14 days later - Blue book handed over

Therefore in the scenario above, no laws are put aside

BTW

Contracts generally are not worth the paper they are written on anyway....

Well I don't know who YOU have been working for but I'm sure it's not as a teacher because this just does not happen.

If you can let us all know why a school would first of all pay for your WP before even seeing you teach and THEN get all the paperwork, together and send you on your merry way to Laos etc with all this ready to give you a non-'B" visa knowing that you could just get your "B' visa and not return to their job? Come on man TIT and These Are Thai's.

If you go to Singapore for your visa then it's not hard to tell that you are NOT a teacher and that's great for you however this post was about "Teaching with a Tourist visa".

To all other who corrected me, yes you're correct it's not just the "B" visa for the WP sorry.

PS; Contracts are EVERYTHING when you get the Labour Board invlolved. First thing they ask you.

Edited January 25, 2011 by thailandbluegrass

[jdinasia]

Sorry TBG ---

But it does happen.

If you have absolutely no experience teaching or are deficient in some other way you may have more trouble and some schools or agencies may never do it, but it certainly does happen. In fact, it happens for some people without them having to leave to change types of visa (from tourist to non-imm). The process is only lengthy between the time of applying for the annual permission to stay and the issuance of said permission.

I have read enough of your story on tvf to understand why you are bitter, but your type of experience, while not uncommon, is not the only way it works in Thailand.

[Ijustwannateach]

According to the difference between 2 polls we have run in the Teacher's forum about 5 years apart, the problem the OP describes (along with the careless attitude towards employee risk) was much more common 5 years ago- practically the rule at that time except for a select few institutions- and even at institions where the WP was issued, it normally took significant processing and delays.

Since that time, as a result of shooting themselves in the foot by collecting the fees for cracking down on all the long-tolerated shortcuts and illegal maneuvers to avoid work permits by schools and agencies, the relevant police and immigration offices have been forced to make the paperwork quite a bit more transparent- to the extent that the situation a couple of years back seemed to be about 50-50 in terms of people experiencing monkey business that year.

Given the additional shooting-themselves-in-the-foot of making the official requirements for a teaching license for teaching TEFL in Thailand at least *appear* more onerous than practically any other teaching job of any sort anywhere else in Asia including Japan- again for the sake of a short term pork barrel by friends of the MOE and a very dodgy hoard of non-native-speaking ringers and shills- they have actually been forced to start issuing teacher's licenses (an obligation whose eventuality apparently eluded their brain trust for some time). As a result, schools have been forced to dot all the i's and cross all the t's even more assiduously, resulting in ever higher numbers of real work permits for foreign teachers.

However, despite these better odds, the numbers of dodgy and dishonest agencies and school directors is still high. My only real advice is that when you find yourself in this kind of situation, your best and only option is to leave at your convenience for the next job. After all, if they never gave you the work permit, you never worked there- you owe them NO contractual obligation whatsoever until that point, as far as I'm concerned. And they're not going to change for you. I'd say give them one term at most to fulfill a promise to make you legal with work permit, and then leave- it DOES still take a significant amount of time at many schools, and some of them are actually just dragging things out to see if they'll want to keep you after the probation period. Ideally, you'd check with other coworkers before signing on to make sure that work permits are routinely issued- but I understand how that doesn't always work out in progress.

Good luck and don't be afraid to quit and change jobs until you find someone who's dealing with you professionally.

[Ijustwannateach]

P.S. Though it was common to see a cavalier attitude among both schools and foreign teachers about working without the proper paperwork (or permission to go ahead during processing) in the old days (5-7 years back), the increasing bureaucratic involvement has made it much chancier. Though the chance is still very low that anyone would ever even challenge you- much less catch you- and if you were caught the chance is highly unlikely that it would result in more than a fine- the chance of going to a Thai prison for an indefinite period before trial and/or deportation/incarceration is non-zero. Personally, I would recommend that all foreigners (and Thais, too) try to keep their chance of incarceration in a Thai prison at zero, period.

So it is not recommended- though, to be realistic, many legitimately employed foreigners will still have to go through lengthy waiting periods (legally) while waiting for the paperwork to be processed.

[Soutpeel]

Well I don't know who YOU have been working for but I'm sure it's not as a teacher because this just does not happen.

If you can let us all know why a school would first of all pay for your WP before even seeing you teach and THEN get all the paperwork, together and send you on your merry way to Laos etc with all this ready to give you a non-'B" visa knowing that you could just get your "B' visa and not return to their job? Come on man TIT and These Are Thai's.

If you go to Singapore for your visa then it's not hard to tell that you are NOT a teacher and that's great for you however this post was about "Teaching with a Tourist visa".

To all other who corrected me, yes you're correct it's not just the "B" visa for the WP sorry.

PS; Contracts are EVERYTHING when you get the Labour Board invlolved. First thing they ask you.

You are right I am not a teacher

The work permit application/visa issue process does not change, whether for "teacher", teacher, Engineer, Manager, Technical specialist.....the process is the same, so my comment is relevant

Just to refresh what you said....

"Now I have been here for 10 years and have had several jobs and not once have I ever had, seen or heard of ANYONE getting a WP “BEFORE” they commenced to work. NO company would or will ever do this so the “laws” are put aside for these reasons and the following normally occurs"

NO company would or ever will do this..... .....dont see "school" mentioned........you are making sweeping statements which are factually incorrect.

[troehr]

Now I have been here for 10 years and have had several jobs and not once have I ever had, seen or heard of ANYONE getting a WP "BEFORE" they commenced to work. NO company would or will ever do this so the "laws" are put aside for these reasons and the following normally occurs:

1. Apply for a job

2. Get the job

3. Sign a contract (many scum agencies won't)

4. Start to teach

5. Get the paperwork for your non-"B' visa

6. Do the visa run and come back with your non-"B"

7. Keep working while company/agency applies for your WP

Well I dont know who you have been working for as the process in my experience is:

1. Apply for the job

2. Get the job

3. Company applies for the WP and provides the receipt along with the other paper work as justification for issue of your Non-imm B

4. Go and get your Non-imm B (Generally a rather pleasant over night stay in Singapore)

5. Return and start work (permissible and legal as "under consideration")

6. 7-14 days later - Blue book handed over

Therefore in the scenario above, no laws are put aside

BTW

Contracts generally are not worth the paper they are written on anyway....

Well I don't know who YOU have been working for but I'm sure it's not as a teacher because this just does not happen.

If you can let us all know why a school would first of all pay for your WP before even seeing you teach and THEN get all the paperwork, together and send you on your merry way to Laos etc with all this ready to give you a non-'B" visa knowing that you could just get your "B' visa and not return to their job? Come on man TIT and These Are Thai's.

If you go to Singapore for your visa then it's not hard to tell that you are NOT a teacher and that's great for you however this post was about "Teaching with a Tourist visa".

To all other who corrected me, yes you're correct it's not just the "B" visa for the WP sorry.

PS; Contracts are EVERYTHING when you get the Labour Board invlolved. First thing they ask you.

Actually this DOES happen.. That is pretty much how it happened when I was hired with the exception I already had my visa. I did not start work until I had the work permit in hand. The school paid for the work permit and reimbursed me the cost of my visa. The same thing happened with the teacher that was just hired. All the paper work was done and completed before he started teaching.\