Buchholz Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 The charge is ridiculous, but given the contempt with which Veera has treated Cambodia I feel little sympathy. Well makes no difference if the charge is ridicules or not. He is guilty of espionage. Just because Thai's and farongs can only see scrub land if it is a military base you are spying on it. They do not have to prove he passed any thing on just that he was spying on them. If I am correct he did take a pictures with his phone. Why? Pretty slim reasoning. It is how ever sufficient to give him what he deserves. Having seen a friend's camera confiscated because he took a picture of some scenery in China that also included a supposedly important bridge, espionage can be interpreted in a pretty broad manner. Was your friend sentenced to 8 years in prison? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Asa Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Veera cannot do much within Cambodian jail under Cambodian law, can he? He may realize now that the Khmer authorities are not easy to deal with like the officials on the Thai side. Now it is real, not only war of words. All this because he think lightly. All this because the Thai soldiers let the Khmer take over the land in the area for too long, and little action has been done to protect its land. Some may think Veera is an idiot to quote Google Earth Map in his defense, but on a second thought why the Khmer so much hate the map is maybe because it makes the world see clearly where the border line lies. I hope Veera will be freed sooner than eight years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 PAD gives govt 3 days to evict Cambodian settlement, help Veera and Ratree; to decide on next major move on Feb 5 /TAN_Network And then? Do they really think that evicting the Cambodian settlers is going to help Veera and Ratree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai at Heart Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 The charge is ridiculous, but given the contempt with which Veera has treated Cambodia I feel little sympathy. Well makes no difference if the charge is ridicules or not. He is guilty of espionage. Just because Thai's and farongs can only see scrub land if it is a military base you are spying on it. They do not have to prove he passed any thing on just that he was spying on them. If I am correct he did take a pictures with his phone. Why? Pretty slim reasoning. It is how ever sufficient to give him what he deserves. Having seen a friend's camera confiscated because he took a picture of some scenery in China that also included a supposedly important bridge, espionage can be interpreted in a pretty broad manner. Was your friend sentenced to 8 years in prison? Nope. But neither was a known repeat offender, with known anti-Chinese government sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mackie Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 This is just another attempt by Cambodians to provoke Thais further and cause more internal problems for Abhisit's government. We all know who is behind it, don't we? It's been very well coordinated. People keep forgetting that Cambodian PM is a former Khmer Rouge. His party is fiercely nationalistic. (Cambodian's People Party)....Sounds familiar??? How on earth anyone can support Hue Sen and his totalitarian regime is beyond me. FYI PHNOM PENH (AFP) – The Cambodian government is choking freedoms and locking up detractors in an increasingly bold effort to silence critics as elections loom, observers say. Prime Minister Hun Sen, 59, who has vowed to remain in power until he is 90, recently said on national radio that his aim was "not just to weaken the opposition, but to make it die". The comment was the latest in a string of outbursts against critics, prompting fears that freedoms are under threat as the government looks ahead to local polls next year and a general election in 2013. "The space for dissent has shrunk to the point where people are gasping for air," said Mathieu Pellerin of local rights group Licadho. "Vast areas of political debate have been effectively declared off-limits. The most minor venture into these fenced-off topics can bring the authorities' wrath, whether you are a prominent politician or an anonymous village farmer." Outspoken opposition leader Sam Rainsy, who lives in self-imposed exile, has been sentenced in absentia to 12 years in jail over two cases related to border issues with Vietnam. If the sentences are upheld, he will be unable to challenge Hun Sen's ruling Cambodian People's Party (CPP) in the 2013 poll. "The CPP is preparing for the next election, that much is clear," said a Cambodia-based Western expert, on the condition of anonymity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Well makes no difference if the charge is ridicules or not. He is guilty of espionage. Just because Thai's and farongs can only see scrub land if it is a military base you are spying on it. They do not have to prove he passed any thing on just that he was spying on them. If I am correct he did take a pictures with his phone. Why? Pretty slim reasoning. It is how ever sufficient to give him what he deserves. Having seen a friend's camera confiscated because he took a picture of some scenery in China that also included a supposedly important bridge, espionage can be interpreted in a pretty broad manner. Was your friend sentenced to 8 years in prison? Nope. But neither was a known repeat offender, with known anti-Chinese government sentiment. Neither was Veera a repeat offender of espionage. He was a repeat offender for tresspassing, for which the first offenders within his group were fined the princely sum of $250. Clearly, Veera was sentenced to prison to 8 years for his known anti-Cambodian government sentiment.... and not for espionage. His co-defendant Ratree was sentenced to 6 years in prison for having a camera like your friend and who had no known anti-Cambodian sentiment and no prior record. . Edited February 2, 2011 by Buchholz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai at Heart Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Neither was Veera a repeat offender of espionage. He was a repeat offender for tresspassing, for which the first offenders within his group were fined the princely sum of $250. Clearly, Veera was sentenced to prison to 8 years for his known anti-Cambodian government sentiment.... and not for espionage. His co-defendant Ratree was sentenced to 6 years in prison for having a camera like your friend and who had no known anti-Cambodian sentiment and no prior record. . Indeed not a repeat offender for espionage. However, there was mention elsewhere of a hidden camera being used somewhere. Whether it is true or not, we will never know. TAN Report - Hidden Camera Cambodian officials claim they found a hidden camera in a shirt button and a sound recorder on their bodies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammered Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 The charge is ridiculous, but given the contempt with which Veera has treated Cambodia I feel little sympathy. Well makes no difference if the charge is ridicules or not. He is guilty of espionage. Just because Thai's and farongs can only see scrub land if it is a military base you are spying on it. They do not have to prove he passed any thing on just that he was spying on them. If I am correct he did take a pictures with his phone. Why? Pretty slim reasoning. It is how ever sufficient to give him what he deserves. Having seen a friend's camera confiscated because he took a picture of some scenery in China that also included a supposedly important bridge, espionage can be interpreted in a pretty broad manner. A few years back a bunch of Iranian diplomats were expelled from the US for taking pics of bridges etc in NY. It always depends who you are, what you represent or are perceived as representing and where you are from. Posturing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai at Heart Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 A few years back a bunch of Iranian diplomats were expelled from the US for taking pics of bridges etc in NY. It always depends who you are, what you represent or are perceived as representing and where you are from. Posturing Precisely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) A few years back a bunch of Iranian diplomats were expelled from the US for taking pics of bridges etc in NY. It always depends who you are, what you represent or are perceived as representing and where you are from. Posturing Precisely Exactly, which is why it has nothing to do with the accuracy of Veera and Ratree's so-called espionage, hence the "trumped-up charge" statement earlier in the thread. It's all about posturing by Hun Sen and nothing to do with spying, which is why 8 year and 6 year prison sentences are totally unjustified. . Edited February 2, 2011 by Buchholz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) A few years back a bunch of Iranian diplomats were expelled from the US for taking pics of bridges etc in NY. It always depends who you are, what you represent or are perceived as representing and where you are from. Posturing Precisely He was without portfolio, on his own, entering internationally disputed territory claimed by both another country and his own. it was not an official delegation pre-arranged through diplomatic channels to find facts, he did it on his own. It was a military area, and this was stated well before, and he entered it and took pictures. A military area need not be fenced in to still be a military area. He entered an area he knew to be controlled by a foreign power, while disputing that countries control, with no authority to do so. He is known to be publicly hostile to Cambodia and to dispute Cambodia's sovereignty of the land. There are so many reasons for them to slap him down hard it's astounding he didn't get MORE TIME. PAD of course are going ballistic over this, but he made his own bed and must join the bedbugs for some time. Edited February 2, 2011 by animatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thai at Heart Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 A few years back a bunch of Iranian diplomats were expelled from the US for taking pics of bridges etc in NY. It always depends who you are, what you represent or are perceived as representing and where you are from. Posturing Precisely He was without portfolio, on his own, entering internationally disputed territory claimed by both another country and his own. it was not an official delegation pre-arranged through diplomatic channels to find facts, he did it on his own. It was a military area, and this was stated well before, and he entered it and took pictures. A military area need not be fenced in to still be a military area. He entered an area he knew to be controlled by a foreign power, while disputing that countries control, with no authority to do so. He is known to be publicly hostile to Cambodia and to dispute Cambodia's sovereignty of the land. There are so many reasons for them to slap him down hard it's astounding he didn't get MORE TIME. PAD of course are going ballistic over this, but he made his own bed and must join the bedbugs for some time. Entirely agree. Veera yanked the chain, and the dog bit back. I didn't mean to imply that I believed the Cambodian charges were posturing, rather that the context of who the guy was, where he was going, the intent of what he was doing, and the fact that he recorded it, possibly covertly, opens him up very easily to the accusation of espionage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ballpoint Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Cambodia must surely be actively attempting to track down and prosecute Youtube poster "wannaprasart" as well his thousands of viewers for espionage of their highly classified military base. How the wily spy team got past the superbly trained base security guards depicted in the opening segment and the extremely fortified base remains a mystery. . Well, if the Cambodians are claiming that they have a highly classified military base right there (which would seem to be a strange claim to make, given its top secret nature) and someone wanders in and shows that there is no such thing then I suppose that is classed as spying. Perhaps a little simpler than flying a U2 over the USSR to prove or disprove the existance of a military installation, but more effective in its own way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anterian Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Espionage can be loosly defined as the seeking of information about one's enemies or rivals. It does not have to be making plans of military installations, it could be just chatting to locals to get an idea of how the think and feel about certain matters. Civilian morale is just as important as military power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Convicted Thai Activists in Cambodia to File Appeals The attornies of the two Thai citizens sentenced to prison for tresspassing and espionage by the Cambodian court have already begun the process of filing appeals. Nattaporn Toprayoon, an attorney appointed by the Thai Patriots Network or the TPN, reported that Veera Somkwarmkid and Ratree Pipattanapaiboon, the two Thai citizens sentenced to prison by the Cambodian court, have already begun the filing appeals and requests for bail release. In addition, Nattaporn is planning to file a lawsuit with the International Criminal Court against the Cambodian government led by Prime Minister Hun Sen. The TPN lawyer will also request that the international court review the case. He pointed to the questionable impartiality of the Cambodian judicial system and the authenticity of the prosecutor's evidence. Secretary to the Thai Foreign Minister, Chavanond Intarakomalyasut, has announced that the government will provide full assistance for both Veera and Ratree if the two decide to appeal the case and change attorneys. Chanvanond pointed out that instead of appealing the case, the Thai citizens could ask to be royally pardoned by the Cambodian monarch. Meanwhile, security at the Cambodian Embassy in Bangkok has been increased. More than 200 police officers have been deployed to the area since last night, and fences have been erected around the compound. However, no protesters have been sighted so far. -- Tan Network 2011-02-02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovelomsak Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 A few years back a bunch of Iranian diplomats were expelled from the US for taking pics of bridges etc in NY. It always depends who you are, what you represent or are perceived as representing and where you are from. Posturing Precisely He was without portfolio, on his own, entering internationally disputed territory claimed by both another country and his own. it was not an official delegation pre-arranged through diplomatic channels to find facts, he did it on his own. It was a military area, and this was stated well before, and he entered it and took pictures. A military area need not be fenced in to still be a military area. He entered an area he knew to be controlled by a foreign power, while disputing that countries control, with no authority to do so. He is known to be publicly hostile to Cambodia and to dispute Cambodia's sovereignty of the land. There are so many reasons for them to slap him down hard it's astounding he didn't get MORE TIME. PAD of course are going ballistic over this, but he made his own bed and must join the bedbugs for some time. Exactly. I feel this post should answer all questions about his charge and conviction. He kicked the dog and the dog bit him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I didn't mean to imply that I believed the Cambodian charges were posturing, rather that the context of who the guy was, where he was going, the intent of what he was doing, and the fact that he recorded it, possibly covertly, opens him up very easily to the accusation of espionage. Not so covertly if it ended up on youtube with a video of him with a palmcorder in his hands. Ratree is also shown with a camera in this video. But who was filming the two of them filming? How did that person escape a prison sentence. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMwxh0zjX1M&feature=related I can see how one might mistake the dry scrubland for dry scrubland and not the secret base it really is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Espionage can be loosly defined as the seeking of information about one's enemies or rivals. It does not have to be making plans of military installations, it could be just chatting to locals to get an idea of how the think and feel about certain matters. Civilian morale is just as important as military power. Very loosely if chatting up the local farmers to find out how long they've lived there (as per the first video) is considered "espionage." . Edited February 2, 2011 by Buchholz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardy1943 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 A yellow shirt finally behind bars. Amazing! They must be color blind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buchholz Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 A few years back a bunch of Iranian diplomats were expelled from the US for taking pics of bridges etc in NY. It always depends who you are, what you represent or are perceived as representing and where you are from. Posturing Precisely He was without portfolio, on his own, entering internationally disputed territory claimed by both another country and his own. it was not an official delegation pre-arranged through diplomatic channels to find facts, he did it on his own. It was a military area, and this was stated well before, and he entered it and took pictures. A military area need not be fenced in to still be a military area. He entered an area he knew to be controlled by a foreign power, while disputing that countries control, with no authority to do so. He is known to be publicly hostile to Cambodia and to dispute Cambodia's sovereignty of the land. There are so many reasons for them to slap him down hard it's astounding he didn't get MORE TIME. PAD of course are going ballistic over this, but he made his own bed and must join the bedbugs for some time. Usually, military bases have military people stationed on them. Usually, military bases have signs designating them as military bases. 8 years for a stroll down a dirt road (as per the 2nd video) is over the top. A trespassing charge is justified. An espionage charge is not. If first offenders get by with a $250 fine, then a second offence might receive 6 months at the most, if not just a higher (perhaps double) fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUYTHAI Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 And now according to today's Thai Rath newspaper they want to demolish the Khmer temple. Rule # 1 Don't believe everything you read...and I know you stated 'according to....'. Eight years is far too long. The sentence is a political statement. Sadly, pedophiles, rapists, murderers, etc. probably get less time, unless it is a politically motivated arrest and sentence. In general, I like Cambodia and its citizens very much but the government is so very corrupt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinscarr Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 I don't think the Cambodian government can claim a monopoly on corruption... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tragickingdom Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 It is a good lesson for a repeat offender. He was arrested before did not got the warning and was out to cause a diplomatic row. I cannot suppress a smile, especially now the people he relied on to make a noise like Suthep and the somewhat strange army commander say that they have accept the term. A typical case of Som Nam Naa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Related topic: PAD Gives 3-Day Ultimatum To Govt To Bring Back 2 Thais Follow this link: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Govt to Pursue Help for Two Jailed in Cambodia The deputy prime minister in charge of national security urges the People's Alliance for Democracy not to blow up the issue of the two Thai activists jailed in Cambodia as it could intensify conflicts between Thailand and Cambodia. Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban expressed disappointment over Cambodian court's sentencing of Weera Somkwamkid and Ratree Pipatanapaiboon for border trespassing and espionage. However, he would not criticize the Cambodian judicial standards and reiterated that the government will continue to find ways to help the two detained Thais. Suthep added the Thai government believes that the rising tension between the two countries would disrupt the Thai-Cambodian ties. However, he said Thailand will continue to negotiate with Cambodia and he believed the tense situation will soon subside. The deputy PM reiterated that the two activists are still able to file an appeal with the Cambodian upper courts and a royal pardon request is entirely up to their choice. Suthep said he is aware that the situation needs to be handled with care so that it will not cause further rifts between the two countries. He went on to say that security officials have been ordered to closely watch Government House, Parliament, the Foreign Ministry and the Cambodian Embassy in Bangkok after there have been threats of possible disturbance there. Asked about the Cambodian government's refusal to take down the flag at the Kaew Sikha Khiri Sawara Temple, the deputy PM said Cambodia has the rigth to do so because the two countries may have differect interpretation on the matter and that the temple was built after the 2000 memorandum of understanding was signed. -- Tan Network 2011-02-02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bitterbatter Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 What could he possibly be spying on there? Seeing if there were cambodian troops? We already know there were. Espionage is a ridiculous charge. Something interesting will happen because of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Government pledges to continue helping two Thais jailed in Cambodia BANGKOK, Feb 2 -- Thailand's Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban on Wednesday said he was disappointed that the Cambodian court handed down quite harsh sentences against two Thai citizens for illegal entry, trespassing into a military area and spying charges but the Thai government would continue helping them. Mr Suthep said he believed the verdict would not affect bilateral relations between the two neighbouring countries and urged the Yellow Shirt activists of the People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) not to incite violence. Nonetheless, he said the government has no plan to disperse the protesters. He also instructed officials to step up security at government offices including Government House, Parliament and the Cambodian embassy in Bangkok. The Phnom Penh Municipal Court on Tuesday handed down an eight-year jail term and a 1.8 million riel (US$450) fine for Veera Somkwamkid, a coordinator of Thai Patriots Network, and a six-year jail term and a 1.2 million riel (US$300) fine for his secretary Ratree Pipattanapaiboon finding them both guilty of espionage, illegal entry and trespassing in a military zone. The pair was told they can appeal within 30 days. Mr Suthep said the legal procedures were not over yet as the pair could appeal and the Thai government would give full support to help them. The verdict should not be drawn to intensify the rift between Thailand and Cambodia as Thailand should live with the neighbouring country peacefully, said the deputy prime minister. As for the request for a possible royal pardon, Mr Suthep said it would depend on Mr Veera and Ms Ratree themselves to make such a decision, but if they decided so the government would facilitate and discuss it with Cambodian authorities. He affirmed that the relations between Thailand and Cambodia are still at a level at which amends can be made. The deputy prime minister commented as the PAD threatened to mobilise more supporters Saturday to step up pressure on the government to help free Mr Veera and Ms Ratree. The PAD has encamped near Government House since Tuesday to protest the government's handling of the border disputes with Cambodia. (MCOT online news) -- TNA 2011-02-02 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
animatic Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 (edited) Espionage could easily be drawn from his stated intent of trying to get information on Cambodia territory, that Cambodians would say are intended to harm Cambodian National Interests. There is also economic espionage and that is illegal also in most countries. Examples being PRC Chinese trying to get info on computer advances, technologies in general, missal info and defense capabilities from USA. Cambodia can make a reasonable argument that Veera had intent to discover similar 'defense capabilities, or economic information. Makes little difference how much money is involved. Edited February 2, 2011 by animatic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DP25 Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 There is also economic espionage and that is illegal also in most countries. Examples being PRC Chinese trying to get info on computer advances, technologies in general, missal info and defense capabilities from USA. Cambodia can make a reasonable argument that Veera had intent to discover similar 'defense capabilities, or economic information. Makes little difference how much money is involved. Yes, Cambodia clearly has to protect their vital dirt farm industry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fnprop Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 A few years back a bunch of Iranian diplomats were expelled from the US for taking pics of bridges etc in NY. It always depends who you are, what you represent or are perceived as representing and where you are from. Posturing Precisely He was without portfolio, on his own, entering internationally disputed territory claimed by both another country and his own. it was not an official delegation pre-arranged through diplomatic channels to find facts, he did it on his own. It was a military area, and this was stated well before, and he entered it and took pictures. A military area need not be fenced in to still be a military area. He entered an area he knew to be controlled by a foreign power, while disputing that countries control, with no authority to do so. He is known to be publicly hostile to Cambodia and to dispute Cambodia's sovereignty of the land. There are so many reasons for them to slap him down hard it's astounding he didn't get MORE TIME. PAD of course are going ballistic over this, but he made his own bed and must join the bedbugs for some time. Exactly. I feel this post should answer all questions about his charge and conviction. He kicked the dog and the dog bit him. :clap2: :clap2: Impunity works so much better when the courts, government, and institutions you'll encounter are your own, not some foreign nation's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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