Outright Racism In The Tesol Industry

[Scott]

Again, we will not discuss American vs. British English. There are threads that have discussed it and frankly, they didn't go anywhere.

Both languages are recognized. It depends on where you are from and what you learned.

Now back to racial discrimination.

[newbie001]

I think that any school that hires Filipinos would hire you also. Your salary would be less than a Native speaker but still higher than Thais. I know of a few schools in CM that hire non natives but they get paid less than 20K a month. I would showcase your resume with the fact that your degree is from Australia. Perhaps there is some problem with your resume also. Most people do not write good resumes and don't even know it.

Many schools do hire white clowns without any experience or degrees but those schools aren't the one's that you want to work for anyway. A good school will require a demo lesson and test your background and qualifications. If you had a degree in education or English, you would have more options.

Yes, there is racial discrimination here and it sucks but there are some jobs. Countries like Korea cannot hire you at all because you do not have a passport from one of the 7 English speaking countries. Some is Racism but some is Nationalism. I also find it a little ironic about you complaining about not getting a job in Thailand teaching because of racism but you couldn't get hired in your own country either. Would you consider that racism also? Or lack of qualifications. I think that you are actually suffering from both problems here. Like it or not, you are not a native English speaker and even though you are probably articulate and well spoken, not all Thai management would know. It is easier for them not to risk it. There are many managers who cannot speak English that hire English teachers. So how do they know if one is actually articulate? They just assume that if someone is white that they speak English. It is stupid but it is just how it works sometimes.

Look at it this way. You have a Thai person who is fluent in English and studied in a western University they still get paid the same as other Thai teachers that are barely conversant.

It is rarely based on skill or ability here.

good luck.

[Xangsamhua]

I think that any school that hires Filipinos would hire you also. Your salary would be less than a Native speaker but still higher than Thais. I know of a few schools in CM that hire non natives but they get paid less than 20K a month. I would showcase your resume with the fact that your degree is from Australia. Perhaps there is some problem with your resume also. Most people do not write good resumes and don't even know it.

Many schools do hire white clowns without any experience or degrees but those schools aren't the one's that you want to work for anyway. A good school will require a demo lesson and test your background and qualifications. If you had a degree in education or English, you would have more options.

Yes, there is racial discrimination here and it sucks but there are some jobs. Countries like Korea cannot hire you at all because you do not have a passport from one of the 7 English speaking countries. Some is Racism but some is Nationalism. I also find it a little ironic about you complaining about not getting a job in Thailand teaching because of racism but you couldn't get hired in your own country either. Would you consider that racism also? Or lack of qualifications. I think that you are actually suffering from both problems here. Like it or not, you are not a native English speaker and even though you are probably articulate and well spoken, not all Thai management would know. It is easier for them not to risk it. There are many managers who cannot speak English that hire English teachers. So how do they know if one is actually articulate? They just assume that if someone is white that they speak English. It is stupid but it is just how it works sometimes.

Look at it this way. You have a Thai person who is fluent in English and studied in a western University they still get paid the same as other Thai teachers that are barely conversant.

It is rarely based on skill or ability here.

good luck.

Well, I offered to give the OP the names of some good schools that would give her a better deal than newbie001 has suggested. I think Newbie makes some very good points, but some of his claims do not apply in all schools (I don't think any of our Thai staff with overseas degrees or good IELTS scores would stick around if they were paid as your average non-English-competent teacher).

Anyway, the OP's not taken up the offer, so maybe she's found something suitable.

[Gumballl]

Now back to racial discrimination.

Did it ever go away?

[koralynne]

Hi all,

I actually managed to land a job as a science and english teacher in a high school, and am getting paid at the same rate as the other "natives."

Thanks for all your feedback and opinions.

Wish me well.

[Yuu_CM]

The OP seems to not realise he's living in Thailand...........................

Yes, there's discrimination. Thais want to learn from 'white' teachers, not other asians. That's just the way it is. HOWEVER, white people here are restricted in just about every other job they want to do. Older people (Thais and Westerners) are discriminated against by age ("Thai secretary wanted, must be under 25". "Thai mananger required, must not be older than 40" etc etc etc etc. I've got Burmese friends who work for half the salary of their Thai workmates, doing the same jobs. Discrimination is everywhere in Thailand. Literally, everywhere.

Claiming you're discriminated against by the "TESOL industry" as though it's the only thing in Thailand that discriminates is a bit silly. This country is 100 years behind the west for political correctness. It's not right, but it's plain and simply reality and if you chose to live and work here there's basically nothing you can do about it. Hopefully it will not be like this in 50 years.

[Yuu_CM]

Hi all,

I actually managed to land a job as a science and english teacher in a high school, and am getting paid at the same rate as the other "natives."

Thanks for all your feedback and opinions.

Wish me well.

Good luck and my only advice would be to work twice as hard as the 'white' teachers as the students will see your skin colour and be let down that they've not got a 'native speaker' whilst their friends all have a big smiling Brit. By working harder than other teachers, you can show them they were lucky to get you.

[pearl984]

.

Many people would disagree with your opinion of Filipino's in education. It usually isn't the same level of English as a Native Speaker.

JD,

I am Filipino, and i think is it safe to say that our education is at par as a native speaker. Not many people are aware of this, but, English is our official language in the Philippines. It is used to conduct Business, and, it is the Medium of Instruction in our school system. The Filipino language is widely spoken as do our several dialects, but that is just a way to keep in touch with our heritage.

have you been to the Philippines? im just guessing you havent... or havent met a lot of Filipino Professionals. Not all Filipinos have the "funny accent'. If u have been to the Philippinnes, you know what i mean. the news, posters, magazines and such are all in English.

anyway, to get back to the topic,

yes sadly, I have the same problem as the original poster. i was told by a few centers that they wont hire me because i am not white... same as a friend of mine she's an american born filipino... with an american passport and all.. still being discriminated..

[Yuu_CM]

.

Many people would disagree with your opinion of Filipino's in education. It usually isn't the same level of English as a Native Speaker.

JD,

I am Filipino, and i think is it safe to say that our education is at par as a native speaker. Not many people are aware of this, but, English is our official language in the Philippines. It is used to conduct Business, and, it is the Medium of Instruction in our school system. The Filipino language is widely spoken as do our several dialects, but that is just a way to keep in touch with our heritage.

have you been to the Philippines? im just guessing you havent... or havent met a lot of Filipino Professionals. Not all Filipinos have the "funny accent'. If u have been to the Philippinnes, you know what i mean. the news, posters, magazines and such are all in English.

anyway, to get back to the topic,

yes sadly, I have the same problem as the original poster. i was told by a few centers that they wont hire me because i am not white... same as a friend of mine she's an american born filipino... with an american passport and all.. still being discriminated..

I am sorry, but I've worked with dozens of Phillipinos in teaching jobs and non teaching jobs. I've worked with Phillipinos in Govt. jobs. Phillipinos who have lived away from the Phiilipines for 10 years or more.

What you say simply isn't true in my experience. Your own post is full of grammatical errors. I know "the internet doesn't count", but I am guessing you tried to be as close to correct as possible given that you were making a point.

It's simply not true that Phillipinos are on the same level. The odd exception, yes.

99% of cases though, no.

Also, having been there, your native language is very definitely tagalog.

[Jawnie]

Why don't you try being a Chinese teacher first? Then, once your in a school, suggest that you might teach English, too. You know, get your foot in the door that way.

[jdinasia]

I am sorry, but I've worked with dozens of Phillipinos in teaching jobs and non teaching jobs. I've worked with Phillipinos in Govt. jobs. Phillipinos who have lived away from the Phiilipines for 10 years or more.

What you say simply isn't true in my experience. Your own post is full of grammatical errors. I know "the internet doesn't count", but I am guessing you tried to be as close to correct as possible given that you were making a point.

It's simply not true that Phillipinos are on the same level. The odd exception, yes.

99% of cases though, no.

Also, having been there, your native language is very definitely tagalog.

Have to agree with you on all points. (Not want to ... HAVE to!)

Pearl, hate to tell you this but I have spent a considerable amount of time in the Philippines and have interviewed numerous Filipino prospective employees. I have hired exactly one. That one had been raised in the US and had a US accent and command of the language. None of the rest managed to get to a second interview. I won't pick apart your post to show the usage errors as the whole thing is a moot point. I stand by my statement that "many people would disagree" and arguing that point isn't worth your time or my time since it is factual. I didn't say "all people" or even "most people."

[elshaheen]

Greetings Newbie,

Concerning your topic, “Outright Racism In The Tesol Industry.” This is an issue many of us already know about. Thailand is a very Xenophobia culture. Xenophobia is defined as the "hatred or fear of foreigners or strangers or of their politics or culture"

I used to work last year in an English placement company as part of the HR staff and I’ve seen them tell perspective teachers who not “White” was being told they would not even be considered as a teacher, due to their race, color and religion. Example: a young African American came in who had graduated from Boston University, with a Bed and a certification from his state to be a teacher. He told the agency there was no jobs in his state at that time due to budget issues, so he decided to come to Thailand for a few years and get some experience. He was told right in front of everyone, “They don’t hire Blacks, it’s the agencies policy – as stated on the company’s website” Young male Philippines were often tagged as being gay and so on.

The other day an article in the Bangkok Post, or a letter to the Editor talked about a Black man being thrown off the bus in front of everyone, by a Thai.

Lastly, Asian who were born and raised in an English speaking country and want to work in an Asian country as a teacher, well it will be hard and sometimes not what you think of it.

[Tzvi]

Hi, where is Israel in that sense ? When I visited Thailand most of Thais would think I´m from Europe and when I asked "why" I got answer "We saw Israel in European football league"

[MAJIC]

And then there are other schools who will only hire Brits because of the accent.

We will avoid a discussion of accents. This topic is about Racism, not nationalism or dialects/accents.

So! your Agenda is pretty obvious,you want to believe that those who don't get a Teaching job,have been Racialy Discriminated against,and nothing else!

And of course none of the above.

May I also add some other reasons why jobs are not always forthcoming.(keeping to your restrictions,of course)

At the Interview

1.He/she was improperly dressed.

2.He/She smelt of alchohol.

3.Their Qualifications and experience was not as good as some other applicants.

4.Finances. He/She wants too high a Salary.

5.Overwhelmed for choice/Too many Better Applicants.

6. Wrong age group,may get Familiar,with the young Students.

7. Seems the Qualification may have come from Kow San Road.

8. Will not fit in with the Thai Staff.

9. Just wants enough Cash to continue His/Her Gap Year.Travelling.

10.Has an attitude problem to Authority, i.e me the Principal.

Sorry Scott in spite of your control over your Topic,and the channels we have to walk through,your case is unproven up to now.

P.S I know you have forbidden comments on Accents,but as a Brit of mature years,I also really struggle to tune in to some British Accents,so what chance do you give Thai Students to understand them ???? which is more to the point!

Edited March 31, 2011 by MAJIC

[MAJIC]

The OP seems to not realise he's living in Thailand...........................

Yes, there's discrimination. Thais want to learn from 'white' teachers, not other asians. That's just the way it is. HOWEVER, white people here are restricted in just about every other job they want to do. Older people (Thais and Westerners) are discriminated against by age ("Thai secretary wanted, must be under 25". "Thai mananger required, must not be older than 40" etc etc etc etc. I've got Burmese friends who work for half the salary of their Thai workmates, doing the same jobs. Discrimination is everywhere in Thailand. Literally, everywhere.

[u][b]Claiming you're discriminated against by the "TESOL industry" as though it's the only thing in Thailand that discriminates is a bit silly. This country is 100 years behind the west for political correctness. It's not right, but it's plain and simply reality and if you chose to live and work here there's basically nothing you can do about it. Hopefully it will not be like this in 50 years.

How sadly,very true

[Scott]

This forum tries to answer questions for and about teaching in Thailand. Discussion of accents aren't generally productive. The person interviewing you may not like your accent and thus not hire you.

If you are interested in how accent discussions go, you can look at this thread in the news section. It's now on it's 10th page:

[vichar]

I am a Thai national and speak Thai and English (Scottish variant) with equal fluency. Nobody would detect my bilingualism or "non-native" status from a telephone conversation. I just got a job offer, without any TESOL but on the strength of interview and grammar test alone. The school is part of a larger chain here in Thailand. I just pestered them over the phone and after I sent resume over the email. I still went to hand it in person. That's how persistent I was. I take home pay would be lower than the actual "native-speaker" teachers.

Because of my family connection with Scotland, I grew up learning both English and Thai as a child. I had done some research on the positive sides of bilingual education and bilingual teachers. I can never be quit sure whether I made a really convincing case to the director or my accent is that good in comparison to other Thai English teachers. I would not recommend doing this full time for other people in a similar situation. But it is a good starting point. One day I might just ditch the school and become a freelancer, but it is still too soon for me to say. I kept emphasizing the point that I can empathize with students on two fronts: I am learning Japanese and had learnt Spanish (understanding the difficulty of second or third language acquisitions) and I understand why Thais made certain kinds of mistakes.

I am not sure about the direction, I want to take my teaching career; but it is a good start. From my point of view, having a job offer and some prior experience before I got on to do TESOL, CELTA or even PGCE back in Scotland will provide me with some valuable experience. I am actually appalled by certain comments that I have heard, directly or indirectly, concerning skin colour, accent, and nationality of the new recruits. I possibly don't want to work with people like that anyway. Stay away from them, I think the proves will be shown soon enough when you encounter some professionals or personal problems. My teacher friends have been extremely helpful. Even their sarcastic comments and jokes can actually prepare more for what to come.

I think my life story debunked the native-speaker myth, My mother could barely speak English but she did teach some home works and made sure I handed them in. Of course there are two-three exceptions that set me apart from other Thai students, We visited Scotland whenever we had our chance as a family, I got phone calls and letters from my relative back in Glasgow, and I went to one of the toughest Catholic schools in Thailand, we spent at least four hours a day studying English. Native-speakers ? They were only imported in during the last two years of senior high school. My speech teacher had been Miss Daisy and latterly Miss Helene from Mandalay, they were persistent and dedicated. We lost a native speaker teacher two weeks into the semester after some disagreements with Principal.

I don't think time spent with native speakers in a class room setting matters that much. There are teachers out there of both kinds who have good knowledge of grammar, and are competent English speakers. Their life stories have given me so inspiration to move forward with life and studies. I was told when I was younger that I can be anythings, but recently I was told that my Thai nationality is a liability by an agency. So I can be anythings but an English teacher in certain schools ?

There are stupids administrators and there are smart ones, I wish the laws are brought up to speed and punish the bad kinds. I wish there is another zero on my pay slip, at the same time I do understand that foreign teachers would possibly need to save up for their trips home and back to Thailand. I would only hope is that the pay conditions of all the ESL should be adjust to a similar levels. Schools consider separating payments into categories of relocations/commuting expenses and actual salary.

[Xangsamhua]

I am a Thai national and speak Thai and English (Scottish variant) with equal fluency. Nobody would detect my bilingualism or "non-native" status from a telephone conversation. I just got a job offer, without any TESOL but on the strength of interview and grammar test alone. The school is part of a larger chain here in Thailand. I just pestered them over the phone and after I sent resume over the email. I still went to hand it in person. That's how persistent I was. I take home pay would be lower than the actual "native-speaker" teachers.

Because of my family connection with Scotland, I grew up learning both English and Thai as a child. I had done some research on the positive sides of bilingual education and bilingual teachers. I can never be quit sure whether I made a really convincing case to the director or my accent is that good in comparison to other Thai English teachers. I would not recommend doing this full time for other people in a similar situation. But it is a good starting point. One day I might just ditch the school and become a freelancer, but it is still too soon for me to say. I kept emphasizing the point that I can empathize with students on two fronts: I am learning Japanese and had learnt Spanish (understanding the difficulty of second or third language acquisitions) and I understand why Thais made certain kinds of mistakes.

I am not sure about the direction, I want to take my teaching career; but it is a good start. From my point of view, having a job offer and some prior experience before I got on to do TESOL, CELTA or even PGCE back in Scotland will provide me with some valuable experience. I am actually appalled by certain comments that I have heard, directly or indirectly, concerning skin colour, accent, and nationality of the new recruits. I possibly don't want to work with people like that anyway. Stay away from them, I think the proves will be shown soon enough when you encounter some professionals or personal problems. My teacher friends have been extremely helpful. Even their sarcastic comments and jokes can actually prepare more for what to come.

I think my life story debunked the native-speaker myth, My mother could barely speak English but she did teach some home works and made sure I handed them in. Of course there are two-three exceptions that set me apart from other Thai students, We visited Scotland whenever we had our chance as a family, I got phone calls and letters from my relative back in Glasgow, and I went to one of the toughest Catholic schools in Thailand, we spent at least four hours a day studying English. Native-speakers ? They were only imported in during the last two years of senior high school. My speech teacher had been Miss Daisy and latterly Miss Helene from Mandalay, they were persistent and dedicated. We lost a native speaker teacher two weeks into the semester after some disagreements with Principal.

I don't think time spent with native speakers in a class room setting matters that much. There are teachers out there of both kinds who have good knowledge of grammar, and are competent English speakers. Their life stories have given me so inspiration to move forward with life and studies. I was told when I was younger that I can be anythings, but recently I was told that my Thai nationality is a liability by an agency. So I can be anythings but an English teacher in certain schools ?

There are stupids administrators and there are smart ones, I wish the laws are brought up to speed and punish the bad kinds. I wish there is another zero on my pay slip, at the same time I do understand that foreign teachers would possibly need to save up for their trips home and back to Thailand. I would only hope is that the pay conditions of all the ESL should be adjust to a similar levels. Schools consider separating payments into categories of relocations/commuting expenses and actual salary.

There's a lot to be said for hiring Thai nationals to teach English if their spoken English is of a high standard, they are able to write on the board without making errors, and they can correct kids' written work accurately. Very few Thais are able to write extended discourse without making frequent noticeable errors, so a Thai teacher would usually have to teach written English in a structured, somewhat behaviourist way (where responses are predictable and stimuli are controllable). Unless the Thai teacher has been brought up in a non-Thai or rarefied environment, it can be argued that he or she "knows the children", as well as knowing the language to be taught. This, in a competent teacher, is a significant asset to a school.

Having said that Thai teachers need to meet basic acceptable standards for writing English and therefore teaching written English, I would also have to say that, in my experience, after twelve years in Thailand, many if not most native English speakers also make noticeable errors in their blackboard writing, and some display quite poor control over spelling and punctuation. Few of us are really "expert" in our own language when it comes to the written form. What do you do, though, when you have a teacher - whether Thai or NS - who is conscientious, motivates and manages students well, is creative, contributes well to school life, etc, but has noticeable deficiencies in the written form of the language? I know what I'd do as an administrator, but I'm not sure what others think.

[Scott]

Written English can be quite subjective and it changes over time. When I went to school, punctuation was used like salt and pepper. Over time, this has changed. We were taught not to end sentences with prepositions and God help anyone with a dangling participle.

Spelling is consistent, if you stay away from the internet and text messages.

I look for the basics in grammar than most any high school educated person would be aware of--using have/has, do/does correctly and knowing things like the difference between two, to and too. We have subject teachers who have grammar that is less than stellar, but the English teachers should have a better standard.

The basic problem for Thais is that they don't read. Unless you read a fair amount, you will never be able to write well.

[Xangsamhua]

Written English can be quite subjective and it changes over time. When I went to school, punctuation was used like salt and pepper. Over time, this has changed. We were taught not to end sentences with prepositions and God help anyone with a dangling participle.

Spelling is consistent, if you stay away from the internet and text messages.

I look for the basics in grammar than most any high school educated person would be aware of--using have/has, do/does correctly and knowing things like the difference between two, to and too. We have subject teachers who have grammar that is less than stellar, but the English teachers should have a better standard.

The basic problem for Thais is that they don't read. Unless you read a fair amount, you will never be able to write well.

Thanks, Scott. Well said.

I hesitated at your last sentence, though, thinking "Well, yes, of course I agree with that, but what is the research evidence for it? Could it be an urban legend like 'correcting students' written compositions helps them to write better'?" (This is a matter of some dispute. Dana Feris and John Truscott battled it out in the late 90s in the journals.)

A quick look on the net uncovered this: http://www.cuhk.edu....etters/N4a.pdf. Quite nicely put, I thought. I then searched for "Ferris 1998" and found it at Google Books: Teaching English Composition: Purpose, Process and Practice by Dana Ferris and John Hedgcock.

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

The research evidence they've considered indicates that exposure to varied reading genres generally assists writing development. So far, so good. However, especially in transfer from L1 to L2, it's not automatic. Hence, a Thai speaker who reads extensively in Thai will probably inprove his or her English writing skills as a result, but this is not guaranteed. "[T]he development of L2 writing skills may depend on a constellation of independent factors such as L2 proficiency, L1 and L2 reading ability, L1 and L2 writing proficiency, and exposure to particular genres of writing." (p. 43).

This obviously also applies to Thai speakers who read extensively in English. (There are some, but they're not normally looking for teaching jobs.) If effective reading in English depends heavily on prior spoken ability and, thereby, the ability to pick up the cues, rather than just decode, then the benefits of sub-vocalised reading in transfer (of well phrased sentences and enriched vocabulary) to writing in English, for most of our students, will take a long time to acquire - perhaps almost the whole of their time in a Thai bilingual school.

It seems that the L2 speakers of English who will benefit most in their writing from reading in English are those who already have a relatively advanced command of spoken English, approaching native-like diction and intonation.

So, to return to the topic, if interviewing a Thai national (and Thai speaker) for an English teaching job it seems we should not only try and ascertain whether they read much, but probe further: What languages do they read in? What forms and genres (newspapers? blogs? web forums? books? magazines? Twitter?) When and where do they read? How frequently and regularly? What have they read recently? What are they reading now? This may be culturally unfair in a society which has not until recently encouraged reading for pleasure or self-development. However, for selection of English teachers it appears to be something we need to investigate.

It may be interesting to compare responses from Thai interviewees with those of NS candidates (age may also be a factor). My observation is that NS teachers at my school are not extensive readers of books, and when they read them it is usually escapist literature. However, they may read a lot of web-based material. I don't know.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[Xangsamhua]

A. If anyone has trouble opening the Hong Kong University link (I did when I went back to it), the text is as follows:

More Reading Leads to Better Writing

1. It improves and reinforces vocabulary development.

2. It exposes students to multiple text types/models. 3. It expands and deepens their subject knowledge. 4. It gives them an opportunity to comprehend a topic at their own pace.

The Reading - Writing Connection

As teachers, we want our students to expand their language skills so that they can become better communicators in their chosen disciplines. Reading is vital to this growth and has been found to have a reciprocal relationship with writing. It is generally agreed that the development of good reading habits and skills improve students' ability to write. In fact, reading within a discipline helps students to write professionally in their field. As Leki (1993) put it, "biology professors learn to write articles the way biology professors do by reading articles that biology professors have written" (p.10).

Students' reading and writing skills, developed in their first language, are generally transferable to their second language.However, the transfer is not always automatic; guided activities and discussions are needed to transfer and further develop these skills.

Below is a list of some of the key things a 'good reader' needs to do. Try to think about these things when giving your students reading activities.

Students need to

1. Have/find a purpose for reading

2. Identify the main ideas

3. Skim for gist

4. Scan for important information

5. Actively think about what the author is saying

6. Apply what they are reading to personal experience and knowledge.

The key is to get your students actively involved in the reading process. The following tips may help you to encourage and shape your students into good readers (and writers):

1. Stress the importance of reading, particularly voluntary reading, to your students.

University students often neglect reading for pleasure but "a growing body of evidence suggests that extensive reading – most notably, reading of a voluntary nature – may dramatically enhance . . . skills. . . related to comprehending and producing written text" (Ferris, 1998, p.23)

2. Offer students some selection in course readings or have students find further readings on topics covered in the course.

B. If you can't open the Dana Ferris link, google Teaching English Composition: Purpose, Process and Practice at Google Books.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Xangsamhua

[jdinasia]

Written English can be quite subjective and it changes over time. When I went to school, punctuation was used like salt and pepper. Over time, this has changed. We were taught not to end sentences with prepositions and God help anyone with a dangling participle.

Spelling is consistent, if you stay away from the internet and text messages.

I look for the basics in grammar than most any high school educated person would be aware of--using have/has, do/does correctly and knowing things like the difference between two, to and too. We have subject teachers who have grammar that is less than stellar, but the English teachers should have a better standard.

The basic problem for Thais is that they don't read. Unless you read a fair amount, you will never be able to write well.

There are very few jokes about English that make me chuckle still (I may be getting senile because this one still makes me smile!) ((regarding your first paragraph))

A Southern Belle (hereafter referred to as SB) goes to a party in NYC and starts talking with a New York Socialite (NYS)

SB: Hi, where are y'all from?

NYS: We are all from places where we don't end sentences in prepositions

SB: Oh! Pardon me! Hi, where are y'all from, Bitch!

[Scott]

Good one!

[peanut]

We have subject teachers who have grammar that is less than stellar, but the English teachers should have a better standard.

Sorry to be a bit off-topic, but I've seen this idea before (not sure if it was you or someone else) and I wonder why you think it's acceptable to have subject teachers whose English is not great but ESL teachers MUST be native speakers of English.

In my opinion it would make more sense the other way round.

In an ESL classroom, teacher talking time is supposed to be kept to a minimum or at least that's what we've been taught. Students learn from reading, writing, listening to audio materials, and speaking (usually with each other). The main input is not the teacher. Therefore, I would say the most important things in an ESL teacher are good subject knowledge (although not necessarily native speaker), excellent facilitating skills (motivating students and being able to engage them in activities), excellent pedagogic skills ((being able to explain the subject to the students), and excellent empathy and training knowledge(able to choose and carry out the best activities for a particular group).

Things are different in a, say, Science classroom, where the students spend a lot more time listening to the teacher talk. If this is part of a "bilingual" programme whose main overall objective is to improve students' English skills, then I would argue that it is here where the NES teachers should be employed, in order to provide the correct, NES input that will help students improve their own English in the long run.

Things would be different, of course, in an international school where the students' English is already very good and the subject teacher's job is exactly that - teaching the subject. In that case I agree that the teacher's less-than-perfect English proficiency is not that important.

This is the way I see it. What do you think?

[jdinasia]

We have subject teachers who have grammar that is less than stellar, but the English teachers should have a better standard.

Sorry to be a bit off-topic, but I've seen this idea before (not sure if it was you or someone else) and I wonder why you think it's acceptable to have subject teachers whose English is not great but ESL teachers MUST be native speakers of English.

In my opinion it would make more sense the other way round.

In an ESL classroom, teacher talking time is supposed to be kept to a minimum or at least that's what we've been taught. Students learn from reading, writing, listening to audio materials, and speaking (usually with each other). The main input is not the teacher. Therefore, I would say the most important things in an ESL teacher are good subject knowledge (although not necessarily native speaker), excellent facilitating skills (motivating students and being able to engage them in activities), excellent pedagogic skills ((being able to explain the subject to the students), and excellent empathy and training knowledge(able to choose and carry out the best activities for a particular group).

Things are different in a, say, Science classroom, where the students spend a lot more time listening to the teacher talk. If this is part of a "bilingual" programme whose main overall objective is to improve students' English skills, then I would argue that it is here where the NES teachers should be employed, in order to provide the correct, NES input that will help students improve their own English in the long run.

Things would be different, of course, in an international school where the students' English is already very good and the subject teacher's job is exactly that - teaching the subject. In that case I agree that the teacher's less-than-perfect English proficiency is not that important.

This is the way I see it. What do you think?

Peanut ---

Absorbing a new language and using it properly requires that the models (target language if you prefer) be given grammatically correct. Personally, even for subject teachers I wouldn't hire someone with poor grammar skills, but if I HAD to choose I would choose English teachers that could get it right over subject teachers.

[Scott]

Peanut, I can't disagree with you, but there are a lot of variables in Thai schools, including the amount of money the school can/will spend on staff and the availability of good staff. It's about priorities. It also depends on the grade level of the students.

A lot of Thai schools will chose a teacher based on looks and handwriting ability.

For higher grades, I will easily chose a math teacher whose expertise is math, not English.

When it comes to the actual subject of English, it's a good idea to have someone who is competent in the ins and outs of the language.

[peanut]

When it comes to the actual subject of English, it's a good idea to have someone who is competent in the ins and outs of the language.

Well sure. But what do you mean by competent in the ins and outs of the language?

If competency means knowing about the language and being able to explain things to students, there are lots of non-NES who are competent.

If competency means being able to speak the language, then yes that would be the NES who has the best competency. But again, while desirable, I'm not sure that's the most important thing in an ESL classroom. In most Thai schools the students' English is pre-intermediate or less, some probably intermediate. So it's a bit like saying you HAVE to have a rocket scientist teaching physics to Grade 4.

Yes ideally you would have both of the above in the same person. It's not always easy though so I'm trying to think about priorities when you choose the best person for the job.

Agreed that in real life it depends on many things including the students / parents' perceptions of what they need, which is important. I'm just speaking theoretically.

[peanut]

Peanut ---

Absorbing a new language and using it properly requires that the models (target language if you prefer) be given grammatically correct. Personally, even for subject teachers I wouldn't hire someone with poor grammar skills, but if I HAD to choose I would choose English teachers that could get it right over subject teachers.

Yes precisely. That's why I would choose a NES for a subject teacher in a Thai bilingual programme. You agree with me if I understand correctly??

Of course the person would need to be able to teach that particular subject decently.

[jdinasia]

Peanut ---

Absorbing a new language and using it properly requires that the models (target language if you prefer) be given grammatically correct. Personally, even for subject teachers I wouldn't hire someone with poor grammar skills, but if I HAD to choose I would choose English teachers that could get it right over subject teachers.

Yes precisely. That's why I would choose a NES for a subject teacher in a Thai bilingual programme. You agree with me if I understand correctly??

Of course the person would need to be able to teach that particular subject decently.

LOL .. now I am unsure if I agree or not

I would choose the Native English speaker for all classes taught in English.

IF I had to make a choice, I would pick them to teach English before I would pick them to teach subjects other than English. Get the English right first and that should help with all the other classes taught in English. I am fortunate at this point as I can hire the best available (within reason) and happily hire teachers that are non-native speakers IF they can do attain a 7.0 on the IELTS academic in all bands

[pikwik]

It is a fact that even with your background and education abroad, being from Singapore is a strike against you. Not being white hurts your chances too (even if you were from the USA or Australia it would reduce your chances.

The MoL in Thailand sets standards for the minimum wage that can be paid in occupations other than teaching and reporting that stack the deck in favor of some countries and against others. Until recently, if you were from Japan or the US, you HAD to be paid more than other nationalities to get an extension of stay from TM. Meaning that most companies would hire an Aussie or a Brit before they would hire a Japanese or a yank. (All of those countries now have the same 50k/month minimum)

So yes, it is true, you will find it harder to even get an interview if you are Singaporean/Chinese. I personally LIKE diversity in who I hire and try to look around for what is out there, but when it comes to the company bottom-line I'll usually pay the "market-rate" based upon nationality.

Many people would disagree with your opinion of Filipino's in education. It usually isn't the same level of English as a Native Speaker.

The same can be said about Singaporeans (but I happily grant that any university-level education in a native English speaking country can help overcome some of the innate English issues that many Singaporeans have!) On a side note --- it is relatively common to be raised in the USA and not have English be your "first" language, and the same is true in Singapore. I believe the "English First" system in Singaporean education is relatively new (1987?) but the real policy in Singapore still seems to be "bilingualism".

http://www3.telus.ne.../singapore.html someone's academic article from 2005 ....

Conclusion

Despite the fact that language planning in Singapore has been successful in achieving Government's sated aims, there are a lot existing issues and potential problems underlying the bilingual policy. In order to clarify these issues and solve these problems, not only the Government but also the policy makers, and most important of all, the teaching profession should co-operate with each other. Local teachers should take a more active role in influencing language policy. It is because as front line practitioners, they have direct experience on the needs and difficulties of students. Through the co-operation between teachers and policy-makers, more effective and indigenized language policy, curriculum, methodology and teaching materials could be designed.

If I saw your CV and saw a degree in English, Linguistics, or Education (or a Master's in Biz) I would probably call you in for an interview just because I like diversity. With a Bachelor's in Business I'd probably not call you in just based upon nationality. I know that may sound bad, but a general degree with no relevance AND not coming from a "Native English" speaking country. Remember also, that I do have a clientele to keep happy.

But a TESOL certificate and a degree (in whatever field) is the basic requirement for people wanting to teach English as a foreign language. Why do I specifically need a degree in English, Linguistics, or Education? Because I'm not white? Meaning that I would need more relevant and superior qualifications than white people when competing for the same position?

Bottom line is that the English proficiency of the average, university educated Singaporean is nowhere inferior to anyone from a "native-speaking" country, bilingualism notwithstanding. I'm quoting some negative examples here of course, but why should some whites with no degree nor a TEFL certificate who come to Thailand for the cheap booze and women get the job compared to a serious applicant like myself?

Hello koralynne,

I am a british born chinese person with a post graduate education in the UK. I also possess a TEFL. I had a similar experience to you a few years ago, eventhough I speak with a UK accent. The sad fact is that your face doesn't fit, which you have already forementioned and yes you are quite right to mention the fact that there are many causasians who couldn't even work in their own country as an english teacher, who perfectly fit into the thai education system, despite dodgy qualifications. It is also true that many Thai parents do not wish or want their children to taught by an asian looking face. The stereotype remains that if you look asian, then surely you cannot speak fluent native english. You cannot change the attitudes of a whole nation. However there are exceptions which you have found and I am glad that you have gone into the sciences.

Good luck to the future.

Edited April 22, 2011 by pikwik