elcent Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 I'm a little concerned about authorities keeping to quiet in their TV News broadcasts for the locals there. This could be a bad sign. Hope I'm wrong. According to European and American specialists in Atomic Energy, the IAEA -International Atomic Energy Agency- is best to be trusted and believed although they are also depending on Japanese info as well but have all the other technical expertise info available about all Nuclear factories around the world : http://www.iaea.org/ LaoPo that's the problem when they rely on the info from TEPCO and NISA. Today they will arrive in Japan to get a better picture. They say that many things are not clear yet. By the way. They have opened a facebook account recently which they used to publish their concerns so that the Japanese would listen and ask for help. This is required before they could take any action. First the Japanese obviously tried to keep them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 oops, nearly overlooked that 4:57am More on that "US nuclear chair" - who has now been named as Gregory Jaczko, the chief of the US Nuclear Regulatory Commission, currently giving a report to Congress.He says all the water has gone from the spent fuel pools at reactor No.4 in Fukushima No.1 facility, Japan's most troubled nuclear plant. This means there is nothing to stop the fuel rods from getting hotter and ultimately melting down. The outer shell of the rods could also ignite, with enough force to propel the radioactive fuel inside over a wide area, he says. Gregory Jaczko did not say how the information was obtained, but the NRC and US Department of Energy both have staff on site at the Fukushima complex of six reactors. He says officials believe radiation levels are extremely high, and that could affect workers' ability to stop temperatures from escalating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia/disaster-japan-march-17-live-blog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Which website are you quoting from Elcent and WHICH DATE(s) ? I looked for it and found it here: http://blogs.aljazeera.net/live/asia/disaster-japan-march-17-live-blog The time stamps refer to the time in Japan when entries were made in the blog on 17 March 2011. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Some comfirmation of what was earlier mentioned in this thread, except the military website ban. Seems as if something is brewing too hot now. (All times are local in Japan GMT+9) Timestamp: 6:07am IAEA officials warned Japan in December 2008 that nuclear safety rules were outdated and earthquakes could cause "serious problems" for nuclear power stations, according to a leaked US embassy cable, reports Britain's Daily Telegraph:The document states: "He [the IAEA official] explained that safety guides for seismic safety have only been revised three times in the last 35 years and that the IAEA is now re-examining them."Also, the presenter noted recent earthquakes in some cases have exceeded the design basis for some nuclear plants, and that this is a serious problem that is now driving seismic safety work." Timestamp: 5:57am The US military has banned access to 13 websites - including YouTube, eBay, Amazon, MTV and ESPN [but not Facebook] on its computer network - to free up bandwidth for relief efforts in Japan, say officers at US Cyber Command. The Pentagon said:This action is in no way a reflection on any specific site or the content of any specific site ... [it is] in response to the needs of the military in a time of extreme demand on all circuits and networks in a region of the world that has been devastated by geological activity.The step was requested by US Pacific Command, which is overseeing the military's disaster relief efforts, said the Pentagon. Timestamp: 5:45am More from US NRC boss Gregory Jaczko, who earlier spoke in near-apocalyptic tones, has told Congress that he "strongly believes" the United States could "mitigate" the impact of a nuclear crisis similar to the one unfolding in Japan, if it had occured in the US. Which website are you quoting from Elcent and WHICH DATE(s) ? LaoPo It's live with Japanese local time quoted http://blogs.aljazee...ch-17-live-blog Edited March 16, 2011 by elcent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elcent Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 thanks Maestro, just saw you edited the post. Sometime I forget to mention when there's a link to the source within the posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panhandler007 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Glad that Thailand does not have any reactors, yet! Now if only they could lay off the use of pesticides! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 thanks Maestro, just saw you edited the post. Sometime I forget to mention when there's a link to the source within the posting. Can happen in when posting in a hurry. No harm done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianLS Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Tywais - get a [#10171] You do not have permission to view this attachment. when trying to access your image watercanon.jpg (8.76K) It's working for me. It's a direct uploaded attachment from my PC and not from an external site. I also get the #10171 error when trying to view this attachment - or indeed any attached directly uploaded to the TV site. Don't know why, I am logged in. Tried looking through the help pages but didn't find a solution.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brahmburgers Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (PhysOrg.com) March 16 -- Tokyo may be at serious risk from a massive aftershock and associated tsunami as a result of the devastating March 11 earthquake near Sendai, Japan, according to UC Davis seismologist John Rundle. Friday's magnitude 9.0 temblor has been followed by hundreds of powerful aftershocks that have migrated southwards, noted Rundle, who is professor of geology and physics at UC Davis. "Initially, the major aftershocks were confined to the region near Sendai, but the steady southward march of the aftershocks is cause for alarm for Tokyo and surrounding regions," Rundle said. There is historical evidence of major earthquakes off the coast of Japan being followed by another similarly large earthquake nearby within a relatively short period of time, he said. (more at link below) details and 2 videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianLS Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Source: NHK. Not sure why this wasn't done immediately after the generator failure...... New power lines being planned for cooling system The operator of the quake-damaged Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant says it is trying to install new power lines to reactivate its cooling systems in a desperate effort to stop the ongoing radioactive leakage. Tokyo Electric Power Company says it wants to start the work to install the new lines as early as Thursday morning. Emergency diesel power generators in the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant failed to work because of a power blackout following the earthquake. They were also damaged by the ensuing tsunami. The troubled diesel power generators caused the cooling systems to fail, which then affected the Number-1, -2 and -3 reactors. All the spent fuel rods housed in the 6 reactor buildings were also affected. As a result, the rods remained hot and exposed above the surface of the coolant water. Damage and melting may have occurred. The top priority at the moment is restoring the functions of the cooling systems now that radiation is continuing to leak from the plant. Tokyo Power Electric Company says it is considering laying new power lines into the plant directly from cables of another power company. The company says it hopes to reactivate the cooling systems by connecting the cables to a makeshift switchboard and using them as an emergency power source for the systems. But the company says it was unable to carry out the work on Wednesday because of high readings of radiation in the compound. The company says it will try to complete the installation as soon as possible after reviewing the procedures in order to keep the workers' radiation exposure to a minimum. Thursday, March 17, 2011 05:35 +0900 (JST) Edited March 16, 2011 by JulianLS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Which website are you quoting from Elcent and WHICH DATE(s) ? I looked for it and found it here: http://blogs.aljazee...ch-17-live-blog The time stamps refer to the time in Japan when entries were made in the blog on 17 March 2011. Thank you! LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronz28 Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Think they are holding back info from you? Google translates Maincihi Times Japanese newspaper directly for you to English via Google Chrome browser. To get the translation be sure and check the offer to translate box at the options section, under the hood tab, you get to by clicking on the wrench symbol on the top right hand corner of the Google Chrome browser. It appears the Japanese are angry and believe info is being withheld from them too. http://mainichi.jp/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaoPo Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 A Nuclear Physics expert on television today said that he's looking for 3 days already (with help from Japanese speaking people) for more detailed information; NOT the info Japanese authorities tell the Japanese public on television. He was extremeyl disappointed that the info, given out, is so poor and meager. The general consensus amongst all specialists, including reporters who just came back from Japan is that the Japanese are still withholding vital and detailed information.... ...as if they still don't want to admit if something was done wrong....losing face... For instance, the circle of 30 kms around the reactors, advised by the Japanese, for people to stay away is absurd since the Americans are advising their citizens already to stay away for at least 80 to 90 kms (up to 56 Miles). LaoPo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdietz Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Pictures taken from a helicopter 35Km to the W of the Daiichi plant 7:30 am this morning (17th) seems to indicate the smoke seen yesterday has subsided. (http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/ life stream) - Temperature at storage pools #5 and #6 also rising. - Water cannon truck is about to start spraying water through the hole in the wall at #4 this morning. Not started yet as of 7am. - #3 problems now also seem to be mostly at the storage pool. In this thread I suggest we try to keep the following standards: - Report times in Japanese Standard Time (2 hours ahead of Thai) - Report radiation levels in Sv/h. (modified by milli (mSv/h) / micro (μSv/h)) Edited March 16, 2011 by Jdietz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdietz Posted March 16, 2011 Share Posted March 16, 2011 Some useful links (old and new) - NHK world Life streaming in English: http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/ - SPEEDI radiation level reporting: http://www.bousai.ne.jp/eng/ (reports in nGy/h, divide by 1,000 to get μSv/h) - Life streaming Geiger counter in Chiba http://www.ustream.tv/channel/geiger-counter-chiba (reports in μSv/h) - Life streaming Geiger counter in Tokyo http://www.ustream.tv/channel/geiger-counter-tokyo (reports in cpm, divide by 100 (ballpark figure) to get μSv/h) - Prediction of movement of the radioactive particles http://www.zamg.ac.at/aktuell/index.php?seite=1&artikel=ZAMG_2011-03-16GMT09:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Elcent and others, I just checked the web sites of the Navy 7th fleet and similar military sites, and I saw no mention of the post info above about the military having ferried in special generators for the nuclear plant.. It seemed the original info on that here was from an Al Jazeera blog... Does anyone have an actual military announcement about that? There was a post a couple days ago that GE in the U.S. was preparing to send generators to Japan, being scheduled to leave starting last Wednesday, if I recall correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 (edited) U.S. asks [u.S.] citizens in 80-km radius of Japan nuke plant to evacuate [or stay indoors] WASHINGTON, March 16, Kyodo The U.S. Embassy in Japan has asked American citizens living within an 80-kilometer radius of the quake-hit Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant in Japan to evacuate as a precautionary measure. ''We are recommending, as a precaution, that American citizens who live within 50 miles (80 kilometers) of the Fukushima Nuclear Power Plant evacuate the area or to take shelter indoors if safe evacuation is not practical,'' the embassy said in the advice issued Thursday local time. Conditions such as weather and wind direction will affect the area of radioactive contamination in a complex way, the embassy said, adding that low-level radioactive materials can reach areas more than 80 km away from the damaged nuclear power plant. The Japanese government currently sets the evacuation zone covering areas within a 20-km radius of the plant and advises those within a 30-km radius to stay indoors. http://english.kyodo...1/03/78713.html Edited March 17, 2011 by jfchandler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Kyodo News recap on reactor damage: Of the six reactors at the Fukushima No. 1 [Daiichi] nuclear plant, part of the No. 2 reactor's containment vessel, key to enclosing harmful radioactive substances, has been compromised. More specifically, the pressure-suppression chamber connected to the vessel was damaged following an apparent hydrogen explosion early Tuesday. An estimated 70 percent of the nuclear fuel rods have been damaged at the plant's No. 1 reactor and 33 percent at the No. 2 reactor, Tokyo Electric said Wednesday. The cores of the No. 1, No. 2 and No. 3 reactors are believed to have partially melted with their cooling functions lost in the wake of Friday's magnitude 9.0 earthquake and tsunami. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Someone asked above about the issue of the cooling pools at the other reactors besides No. 4. A bit of info on that from Kyodo News this morning: What appeared to be smoke coming from the No. 3 reactor in the morning led the top government spokesman to point to the possibility of damage to the reactor's steel containment vessel, but it seemed more likely later in the day that the smoke was radioactive steam coming from the No. 3 reactor's spent fuel pool. Cooling down the spent fuel pools is a difficult task amid the high radiation level in the area, while fears of radiation among the public appeared to escalate as some companies refused to deliver relief materials to Fukushima Prefecture even outside of the government-designated warning zone. The government's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency said the first priority should be pouring coolant water into the pools at the No. 3 and No. 4 reactors, which are apparently boiling. Unless the spent fuel rods are cooled down, they could suffer damage and emit radioactive substances. If cooling operations do not proceed well, the situation will ''reach a critical stage in a couple of days,'' an agency official said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 It's interesting that the discussion seems to be turning toward the cooling pools, as opposed to the reactors themselves... I have read some reports the past day or so, that talk about the issue of the risk in the reactors themselves lessening the more time passes since they were shut down.. In other words, the fission activity and heat should be naturally, slowly lessening with time... even in the absence of adequate cooling. The uncooled cooling pools, however, where the nuclear fuel rods are kept in proximity to each other, appears to be a different issue. Comments? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 It's interesting...just the other day...we had media reports quoting the British PM as saying nuclear plants and power still needed to part of Britain's energy mix. Britain advises nationals in Tokyo, areas north to consider leaving LONDON, March 16, Kyodo Britain on Wednesday advised its nationals living in Tokyo and areas north of the Japanese capital to consider leaving in light of the ongoing nuclear crisis at the quake-hit Fukushima No. 1 nuclear plant in northeastern Japan. It said the British Embassy in Japan plans to arrange free buses from Sendai, Miyagi Prefecture to Tokyo on Thursday for evacuating British nationals. It also advised against all non-essential travel to Tokyo and northeastern Japan. ''For those outside the exclusion zone set up by the Japanese authorities there is no real human health issue that people should be concerned about,'' the Foreign Ministry said in a statement. ''However, due to the evolving situation at the Fukushima nuclear facility and potential disruptions to the supply of goods, transport, communications, power and other infrastructure, British nationals currently in Tokyo and to the north of Tokyo should consider leaving the area,'' it said. http://english.kyodo...1/03/78731.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lite Beer Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Official: Spent fuel rods exposed, heightening concerns Tokyo (CNN) -- Spent fuel rods in Unit 4 of Japan's stricken Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant have been exposed, resulting in the emission of "extremely high" levels of radiation, the head of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission said Wednesday. "What we believe at this time is that there has been a hydrogen explosion in this unit due to an uncovering of the fuel in the fuel pool," Gregory Jaczko told a House energy and commerce subcommittee hearing. "We believe that secondary containment has been destroyed and there is no water in the spent fuel pool, and we believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures." CNN--2011--03--17 Full Story Here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Good post... thanks Jd Some useful links (old and new) - NHK world Life streaming in English: http://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/ - SPEEDI radiation level reporting: http://www.bousai.ne.jp/eng/ (reports in nGy/h, divide by 1,000 to get μSv/h) - Life streaming Geiger counter in Chiba http://www.ustream.t...r-counter-chiba (reports in μSv/h) - Life streaming Geiger counter in Tokyo http://www.ustream.t...r-counter-tokyo (reports in cpm, divide by 100 (ballpark figure) to get μSv/h) - Prediction of movement of the radioactive particles http://www.zamg.ac.a...1-03-16GMT09:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 NHK reporting the police and their water cannon truck have arrived at the Fukushima plant.... Also talking about Japanese Self Defense supposedly sending another helicopter this morning to try to put water on the No. 3 reactor...but not clear if they've already tried that yet or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 FLASH: Tokyo Electric says getting ready to inject water into reactor No.3 at Fukushima Daiichi /via@Reuters Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jdietz Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The big issue with these pools is that they are not contained at all, except by the now non-functional outer structure. The fuel rods are far further apart then they would be inside a reactor core, so it is very unlikely the will reach criticality, but without water they will start melting and can spread their contents over a large area. As all these rods have been cooling down for quite a while, this will be even more slow-motion then inside the reactor cores. So as long as they occasionally get some water in the pools it won't be acute. The water-cannon approach will be starting any moment now, let's see how that goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atsiii Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 It's interesting that the discussion seems to be turning toward the cooling pools, as opposed to the reactors themselves... I have read some reports the past day or so, that talk about the issue of the risk in the reactors themselves lessening the more time passes since they were shut down.. In other words, the fission activity and heat should be naturally, slowly lessening with time... even in the absence of adequate cooling. The uncooled cooling pools, however, where the nuclear fuel rods are kept in proximity to each other, appears to be a different issue. Comments? IMO... concern is turning to the cooling pools (particularly #4 which has been repacked and contains not only old but current fuel rods) because there is absolutely no containment structure around the pools. They are open to the atmosphere and contain copious quantities of radioactive materials. Studies have shown that a run-away accident in a cooling pool can be equal or worse than a core meltdown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jfchandler Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 NHK reporting steam rising and blowing to the east from the reactors... Showing images from their helicopter as of about 6 am today. Steam rising from the No. 3 reactor, NHK reporting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atsiii Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The big issue with these pools is that they are not contained at all, except by the now non-functional outer structure. The fuel rods are far further apart then they would be inside a reactor core, so it is very unlikely the will reach criticality, but without water they will start melting and can spread their contents over a large area. As all these rods have been cooling down for quite a while, this will be even more slow-motion then inside the reactor cores. So as long as they occasionally get some water in the pools it won't be acute. The water-cannon approach will be starting any moment now, let's see how that goes. Except that the #4 pool contains not only 20+ year of spent fuel rods, but all the current rods from the #4 reactor which had been removed for maintenance. Further, it is feared that the pool has been re-racked (perhaps more than once) and the spacing is unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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