Rubber Trees

[David006]

I have read the thread (or most of it) but I am too confused about the numbers. Also I have no chance of control or influence what is happening to the rubber plantations I have spent millions of Baht on (in total 60 rai with around 5000 trees).

I am divorced and have written it all off as the future for our two children. The deal is that as it produces more I will pay less in child support.

But - if you do not mind - would anybody please comment on the information my ex wife has given me til now:

Tapping 1000 trees aged 7-8 (some at 6+?) years (imo they are too small, but as the other 4000 trees are aged 2-6 years I don't worry too much about the tapping life span).

The numbers are (all cups):

May 13 - May 29: 180 kg, 75-79 Baht pr. kg

May 30 - July 13: 150 kg, 65 Baht pr. kg

July 14 - July 19: No info.

July 20 - August 3: Gross Baht 11,000 (could be anything, f.ex. appr. 170 kg @ 65 Baht/kg)

Next sale is scheduled for August 17.

Ty in advance.

..reasonably accurate re pricing comparing the wife's little blue book, however the weight may be rather low for the number of trees/frequency being tapped (whatever that may be)...looks like there may be two or more "sales" going on...it happened to us years ago in our ignorance before we made our cutting strictly family ...very commonly practiced upon absentee owners it seems....

[philo]

Thank you David for your swift answer.

However - it is family tapping and as I have enough problems with my ex wife as it is, I will for the moment think that the 'low' production is because the trees are too small. I think she once said that they are tapping 2 days and leaving 1 day for the tree to rest.

I have made a short video - experienced eyes should be able to compare the size of the trees with the cup.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDiMaCeaVQg

Furthermore - I wonder if I overpaid for the last 12 rais I bought. There are appr. 900 threes - of which she is tapping 600 this year. The video will give you an impression.

What would you experienced people have paid for this plot? (given the positive fact that it is only 10 minutes from home, and land in the area is almost impossible to come by - all is planted already).

[David006]

hi again: well I cannot intelligently comment on the price for land way up there..lol I know we(I) paid 900+k for 25 rai of tapable neglected trees ( approx 650)about 6 years ago but what current pricing nationwide is is anybody's guess..maybe Jim C can answer ??

Your trees look rather good about the size of the 600 odd we just opened and based upon that our yield ( last 3 months..increasing each week I note) is not far off yours..we tap 2-4 days on 1-2 off..so maybe you got lucky ..divorce notwithstanding....

[tothemark]

Thank you David for your swift answer.

However - it is family tapping and as I have enough problems with my ex wife as it is, I will for the moment think that the 'low' production is because the trees are too small. I think she once said that they are tapping 2 days and leaving 1 day for the tree to rest.

Furthermore - I wonder if I overpaid for the last 12 rais I bought. There are appr. 900 threes - of which she is tapping 600 this year. The video will give you an impression.

What would you experienced people have paid for this plot? (given the positive fact that it is only 10 minutes from home, and land in the area is almost impossible to come by - all is planted already).

Philo,

Personally I would sit and wait, let the anguish blow over you or it will eat away inside you like a cancer, been there myself. No one can make any accurate assumptions based upon the wet period we are having now which prevents a significant amount of tapping. Our figures are way down this month over last year because of the rain. Sit it out and wait for a decent spell of weather, September-October and then come back with some figures its too hit or miss at the moment and many areas have more rain than others.

I would comment that your video shows too much ground vegetation - looks like they are content to take and not to care.

When did you buy the last 12 rai, what age trees were on it, had they been regularly fertilised, is it near a main road (asphalt/concrete), does it have water and power and how far from a major town/village and what land title does it have ? Give us that info and we can base a better opinion on the price that should have been paid. Oh, and of course did you buy it off the family.......

[philo]

Thank you very much - David and tothemark.

I paid THB 1 million for the plot - as I said 900 trees on 12 rai - the bulk of the trees are supposed to be 7-8 years. I am not worried at all - it was my own stupidity that I didn't buy more and cheaper plots that were for sale the 5 years I stayed with my wife.

I didn't buy it - and it is not mine. I only paid for it. It was bought by my ex wife and her family (her father has been doing a small scale nursery for 10-15 years) from another family in the village that were about to move somewhere else. Reason for paying: We have two children and she takes good care of them. The plot was bought AFTER we were divorced (spring this year).

Had I given her cash, it would soon have been gone. Had I made saving accounts for the children - she could have borrowed cash on them. Large amounts of cash is something they have - to be polite - little knowledge about how to handle.

But land is close to sacred for them - and the total planted land in my ex wife's name is 60 rai, all within a short motorbike ride for her brothers and brothers in law to do the tapping. And she speaks about it not as hers - but the children have 30 rais each.

Had I kept the money it would have been long gone in bars and red houses ...

Thanks again.

[fezzy]

Hey Philo I know of land where I am in Sukhothai going for 2.5 mill for 25 Rai of 7-8 year old trees in town with no power or water so your purchase price seems alright with the information given

Hope this helps

[philo]

Thanks to you too fezzy.

I had a feeling it wasn't too bad, so I am grateful for all your answers.

I forgot to say that I dare not say anything about the maintenance of the land. But for the moment I pay for fertilizer, chemical weed killers and tractors to 'turn' the soil, so I guess they know what they are doing.

My happiness about the whole thing is that the ex wife and the family tappers (40%) have their own income - independent of me (and it will grow year by year). I can see it in their faces when I visit my children every now and then. Personally I never have and never will touch a rubber tapping knife.

It will hopefully allow my ex wife to pay for the childrens education for many years.

And the video is 2 months old - haven't seen any of the land now. Will report production when the rains are slowing down.

Happy tapping to ya all!

[tothemark]

Thanks to you too fezzy.

I had a feeling it wasn't too bad, so I am grateful for all your answers.

Hi Philo,

Thats 80,000 per rai, considering you bought when rubber was at the top of the market this year I would say that was a good price for 6-7 year trees. The small 12-15 rai plots always fetch a higher per rai cost (circa 100,000 per rai in my area) because they are more affordable to a wider market of people.

[Gonsalviz]

Hi all well heres my bit, don't know if it is worth much and my skills as a technical writer leave a lot to be desired. Anyway when the next newbie asks he can at least get a rough idea as to what is involved. Jim

RUBBER 101 FOR BEGINERS a rough guide

First requirement is land, on which to plant. Rubber is a jungle tree and likes rain, but does not like wet ground. So rice paddies, swamps, marshes and flood plains are generally not suitable for rubber. Measures can be taken to utilise this type of land, but the long term cost will be prohibitive.

Ideally gently sloping land, that does not flood. As I am from Issan this is the area that I know. Here rubber is planted along the Cambodia, Lao border, near the mountains and Mekong river. Inland areas are just too dry for long periods of the year. Again measures can be taken, irrigation etc, but long term costs have to be looked at.

Now we have found our bit of rubber tree heaven and want to prepare the land for trees. Remember that in 7 or 8 years men will be staggering around in the dead of night tripping over old stumps. rocks and falling in holes. Level the ground as best you can and if you have access to animal manure [which includes septic sam the toilet man] plough it in to the ground. Put up your fences, don't want cattle and water buffalo wandering around and standing on or eating your young trees. Build a workers hut, the nicer the better. Workers and you may spend a lot of time there over the coming years. Be comfortable after all a cold beer with your workers, swinging in your hammock at the end off a hot day of grass cutting is one of the better moments and will help to bond you with the locals.

THE TREES

Which type of tree [clone] for you.

RIMM 600 your basic tried and tested rubber tree, grown throughout Thailand.

RIMM 251 a better rubber producer, twice as much as the 600, but with all things has some draw backs. Shorter life, less lumber value and worst of all, fall over in the wind. Not suitable for coastal regions or windy areas.

JVP80 New tree type and I know nothing about the pros and cons for it. Allegedly tappable after 5 years. Think the jury is still out.

Best advice go to the Government Agriculture Office for your district and ask what's best in your area. That's what these guys are paid to do, give advise. They may not be the smartest people in the world, but they will know what's doing well and what's not.

BUYING OR GROWING TREES.

To buy from a nursery or grow your own, that is the question.

If you are going the nursery way, do your home work and find the place with the best reputation, not the wifes 2nd. cousin, who started a nursery last week. I would not go the way of ordering and placing a deposit. If the nursery can get a better price they will sell the good trees and you will be left with what is left. It may cost more ,but just pay the price when you need them and get the good trees.

Personally I favour making your own nursery. It is not difficult or costly, just time consuming, but you will get trees that you know have been cared for.

THE BIG MOMENT PLANTING

Much debate has gone on about spacing and number of trees per Rai. For this we will stick to the Governments recommendation. 76 trees per Rai, 3 metres between trees and 7 metres between rows.

Mark out your land for the trees and await the rains. You want your trees in the ground as soon as possible, but not too early as the rain may stop and your trees start dying. Much of the timing will depend on where you are. The lack of rain [water ] will be your biggest enemy in the first 12 months. If you have the money buy a water tank on wheels and a good tractor to pull it. I being a poor man used a 2 wheeled rice tractor with 4 100 litre drums on the trailer.

Labour will be a problem, as planting falls at around the Cassava and rice planting times, most people will be busy on there own land. What you can do is pay by the hole and they will come and go as they see fit.

Holes should be 1 metre in diameter and 1/2 a metre deep, so as to form an earthen bowl. Check the hole sizes or they will get progressively smaller as time goes by. Just get 2/ 1 metre sticks make a cross and tie a 1/2 metre string with weight to it. Easy and fast to check.

When planting the trees remove them from the plastic bag, tickle out the roots and plant them. They are a very hardy tree and you don't have to be gentle. Water in if necessary ,

the hole my be half full of rain water already.

When all the plantings done have a party for the workers. You are now a planter.

PART 2 THE LONG HAUL

Now that the excitement of starting has waned and the family are not getting new toys, pickup trucks, tractors, scrub cutters etc You need a foreman, you maybe blessed by having an in-law who is hard working, loyal and given up all worldly greed, if not you need to be there to make sure what you pay for gets done.

FERTILISER

I won't go into too much depth on this subject as best practice changes as Agriculture researchers refine and learn better ways. Common practice for most Thais is one 50 kilo bag per Rai twice a year. The area around the tree is roughed up and the fertiliser is sprinkled around, then rice chaff or grass is place over the area to stop the fertiliser blowing or washing away. This method works fine, but is not best practice.

Here again we want our friend the local Agriculture advisers help. He can give you a booklet on the best method at the time. Which is currently the 3 hole varying amount and fertiliser type. The plan is worked out for the age of the tree and will save you money, as well as give you trees a little added help.

FIRE and WEED CONTROL

You have now entered into an on going war with grass and weeds, if not controlled they will out grow your trees and in the dry season will become a very serious fire hazard. Plough the field a least twice a year for the first 2 years. This not only keeps the weeds down, but allows the soil to soak up water. Scrub cutters [weed wackers] will be constantly on the go and you will need to poison. All it takes is one ember from someone burning off his rice stubble and all your work can go up in smoke.

BUGS MOULDS DESEASE and BANCHES

One of the constant on going jobs will be removing the small branches that grow on your trees. You only want the top branches, all others that grow from the trunk need to be removed. A small pair of side cutters will be your companion for a few years. Branches are removed to the 3 metre high mark. While doing your branch patrol you will see if a tree is having problems or has died. Dead trees can be replaced the next planting time for the first 2 maybe 3 years, after which the canopy of the existing trees will stop new trees growing. If you are smart you will have kept a percentage of your original trees and potted them [bigger grow bags] then you can replace dead or under preforming trees with healthy strong trees of the same age.

Other problems such as termites, moulds and diseases which may occur, will be seen on your branch patrols. Now just like our pig farmers you don't have to be a vet to know your pigs are sick. Same with your trees, if something is wrong hire an expert, you are the manager and your job is to manage.

TAPPING TIME HAS COME

The years have passed, your money and hair have gone, but you have made it to those magic numbers. 7 years old, 46 cm in circumference 1 metre from the ground. In reality after all the years you will be taking no notice of these numbers and will tap by tree condition, but for now we will stick to the generic numbers.

First problem tappers. Good tappers are hard to find. A good tapper will take a shaving of bark so fine that it will float to the ground like a feather. He will not touch the wood of the tree and latex will flow. A bad or inexperienced tapper will take a slice of bark with some tree wood and hurt the tree. Moral of this story is a good tapper us worth his weight in rubber, take care of him, it will pay in the long run.

Tapping schedule

Basic rule tap 2 rest 1. Many Thais will tap 3 rest 1. By this stage you should know what's best for your trees. If a tree stops growing or starts to struggle stop tapping and let the tree rest.

That's about it, now all you need to do is decide, liquid latex, cup or sheet. The rest is just sit in your comfortable tappers hut watching your workers toil in the hot sun, while you drink cold beer and think of your friends back home doing the 9 to 5 grind.

1/2 meter deep I do not doubt. We found that there big rocks underground and the trees would die. Had to move several away from the rocks. My question is why you would make the hole 1 meter across?

[jamescollister]

1/2 meter deep I do not doubt. We found that there big rocks underground and the trees would die. Had to move several away from the rocks. My question is why you would make the hole 1 meter across?

Perhaps don't think of it as a hole, but more of a big in ground pot. Water and fertilizer will stay in the bowl and the little roots will have soft soil to spread. When the dry season hits you may have to water, much easier to fill the pot than to water the whole area. Jim

[buben]

^Jim

Hi Jim

I reread this excellent thread.

I have a different kind of question.

You mentioned your income is now solely rubber farm based, and from the sound of it the margins are slim.

On the other hand you also wrote that a lot in the village got new cars.

So the question is, is rubber farming a profitable endeavor or does the costs almost meet the income ?

I am a farang who still live outside LOS and not yet at retirement age.

In order to build some steady income at retirement a rubberfarm is obvious, but as you walk pointed out it is no walk in the park ;

So perhaps a given sum of money is better invested in stocks or bonds.

I am not asking investment advice, just some idea of "rubber farming is solid income, and profitable, albeit with many pitfalls for the novice" or "rubber farming can work but really the margins are slim".

Cheers!

[jamescollister]

^Jim

Hi Jim

I reread this excellent thread.

I have a different kind of question.

You mentioned your income is now solely rubber farm based, and from the sound of it the margins are slim.

On the other hand you also wrote that a lot in the village got new cars.

So the question is, is rubber farming a profitable endeavor or does the costs almost meet the income ?

I am a farang who still live outside LOS and not yet at retirement age.

In order to build some steady income at retirement a rubberfarm is obvious, but as you walk pointed out it is no walk in the park ;

So perhaps a given sum of money is better invested in stocks or bonds.

I am not asking investment advice, just some idea of "rubber farming is solid income, and profitable, albeit with many pitfalls for the novice" or "rubber farming can work but really the margins are slim".

Cheers!

PM me or e mail, I'll give you some numbers if you can tell me how much you are going for land wise and where. Not being secretive. wWell say make a good living if you go for it, but money is a perspective thing. Had a yank visit on a good day and he said what I make would not pay his house repayments. Jim

[tingtong]

wise answer Jim.

On the other topic there is an ongoing argument about another yank, if he can comfortable retire or not with just about 2 million USD...huh, even with a very low thai bank interest of say 3%, that would bring in about 1.8 million THB a yr...or 150.000 a month...

well for some it is nothing, on the other hand i can have lots of happiness with my family from 30-40.000...

money is relative, so is how or what someone spends it.

In Issan, there is little use of a Lamborghini to get to my farm. Even though there is room in the garage to park it, if someone has a spare

[Mosha]

I've seen those Issan Lamborghinis My friend can't understand how we live so cheaply. I keep telling him it's lifestyle. We live well on 25000 plus paying the Isuzu of. Man 150000/month, I'd be in heaven.

[BaDay11]

Hi all, i need info to buy supertab, a new tapping knife..its i see it at youtube..

[jamescollister]

Hi all, i need info to buy supertab, a new tapping knife..its i see it at youtube..

Hi , it's' not new and has been on you tube for years. I've e mailed etc and so have others, no response. Jim

[tothemark]

Hi Jim,

Question for you, when are you doing your next fertiliser application on your trees ?

I have been looking at doing it a bit later than normal because of all the rain we are still getting, hows it down your way ? Most farms round here have just done theirs, the Mekong will be flowing luminous green because of that !

Mark

[Mosha]

Sorry to butt in Mark, we usually do it just before the rain starts, and just before it is due to end. Down here that is sometime next month normally. This year is anyone's guess. Also we have thrown tap 2 rest one out of the door. A dry night we are tapping. Most we have had is 4 nights on the trot :rolleyes :lol

[jamescollister]

That's it Mosha end of rains and start of rains. Though this year who knows. Sometimes throw a bit of fast release fertilizer on any tree the looks like it could do with a bit of assistance. So will probably do the fertilizing end of October start of November. Wish I could say we are tapping 3 or 4 on, but it's more like start to tap, run around collecting latex as soon as the rain starts again. We even have tried tapping in the evenings between rains. This has been the longest rainy season I have seen here, started after Song Kran and just doesn't want to stop. Not had a day that it didn't rain in 6 weeks, but strangly been fairly dry not 20 km from here. Have to look on the bright side, we will have a longer tapping season, may get less than 2 month dormant, of couse that is if it isn't a drought next year.

As a PS Mark seem to remember you were planting some JVP 80s, how are they going. We are thinking of ordering 600 for next year, to try. Jim

[Mosha]

I've always said Jim, 2 types of rain in Thailand. Not enough and too much. We've had less than 300kg out of 700 trees since the rains started. The number of times our man went up cut and the skies opened, it's unreal. More trees on line next year, but this year is a wash out so far. Yes it's odd you can go a few miles down the road and it's bone dry. Haven't checked the figures but Ranong must have passed it's average by now. Sometimes I wish we had more palm. 40 trees the land is water logged nothing else will grow there. Enough to drive a man to drink. Ah well coconuts are getting 8 baht

[tothemark]

As a PS Mark seem to remember you were planting some JVP 80s, how are they going. We are thinking of ordering 600 for next year, to try. Jim

We are going to see if the rain stops and then make a decision re fertiliser, we are tempted to do it when there's been a five day lull in the rains, could have a long wait , but personally i dont want to see it flowing down the fields into the nearest mae nam.

Jvp's went in fine, had about a 10% fail or thereabouts, couldnt give you a reason why some died, the replacements took ok without any change to planting techniques. They are meant to be pretty hardy anyway especially when there's a drought, just be careful you dont get bullshitted and end up with duds/fakes, short term gain is so often long term misery in my book of accounts.

Hasnt stopped raining for 60 days and 60 nights, these jvp's will be hitching a lift with Noah soon.

[Mosha]

I've just checked the figures. Ranong's average annual rainfall is just over 3.3 m/a We are as yesterday at 3.4m.

[timber]

Steve you are saying we are above average in rainfall and

the rainy season and we still have October and November to go

through. Wow! Why am I not surprised. We got 13 baht for

the biggies and 8 baht for small a couple of weeks ago.

[Mosha]

Steve you are saying we are above average in rainfall and

the rainy season and we still have October and November to go

through. Wow! Why am I not surprised. We got 13 baht for

the biggies and 8 baht for small a couple of weeks ago.

8 and 5 over here lol. Beer money Wettest year for 30 years or so they say.

[Lickey]

Had a chat with thai friends last night, they were saying there rubber trees are now 7 yrs old and ready, 40rai, it has cost them 100k a year to get to the cutting stage, and they want cutters to live on the farm, they found 3 families [Lao i think] who are willing, and they want to provide housing and all the normal family comforts for them, which includes running electric along 4ks of lane and sattellite tv, toilets ect, they think this will cost them about 150k bht, and the usual 60/40 split, im thinking, when are they going to start making a profit from the rubber? anybody got a spreadsheet or an idea on this, Thanks, Lickey..

[jamescollister]

Had a chat with thai friends last night, they were saying there rubber trees are now 7 yrs old and ready, 40rai, it has cost them 100k a year to get to the cutting stage, and they want cutters to live on the farm, they found 3 families [Lao i think] who are willing, and they want to provide housing and all the normal family comforts for them, which includes running electric along 4ks of lane and sattellite tv, toilets ect, they think this will cost them about 150k bht, and the usual 60/40 split, im thinking, when are they going to start making a profit from the rubber? anybody got a spreadsheet or an idea on this, Thanks, Lickey..

Lickey like most things in life there are no guarantees. Will it stop raining, will next year be a drought, are the trees good, are the Lao workers legal and can they tap. Your friend will know when he sells his rubber, until then it's all just guessing. Think in the long run he will be happy. Jim

[barrybike]

hi jim pic was took of our trees last week ...waiting for rain to stop so can spray ,clean and fertalize .and fire protect .i was talking to u a long time ago ..hope alls going well with your crop ....just read the start of the topic ..the only people in the whole of thailand that i know of who has thousands of acres of rubber trees is the chang beer company not far from our area ,they actually have 10,000 rai of rubber trees believe it or not ..

[jamescollister]

hi jim pic was took of our trees last week ...waiting for rain to stop so can spray ,clean and fertalize .and fire protect .i was talking to u a long time ago ..hope alls going well with your crop ....just read the start of the topic ..the only people in the whole of thailand that i know of who has thousands of acres of rubber trees is the chang beer company not far from our area ,they actually have 10,000 rai of rubber trees believe it or not ..

Hi there Barry, the pic looks good, nice tall trees with no branches Hard to tell the size, but looking at the canopy about 5 years plus.

Our trees are doing fine, except for the rain and then the drop in rubber prices due to all this Greek stuff. Life was not meant to be easy, but rubber planting is better than working for a living

10,000 ray, as always the rich get richer and the poor just work.Jim

[barrybike]

FIRE and WEED CONTROL

You have now entered into an on going war with grass and weeds, Scrub cutters [weed wackers] will be constantly on the go and you will need to poison.

Nice one Jim, i am sure this thread will keep getting bumped if it doesnt get pinned.

With you mentioning weed killer (poison) are you using Glysophate (roundup) or have you another method besides brushcutting ?

Mark I presume

Think you just illustrated one of my points. I have no idea what poison they use. As with any job that reguires a special skill or knowledge, I hire a man who knows.

IA only thing I know about pigs is that I hope to come and eat one of yours this year.

yes mark is spot on ...glyphosate ..commonly known in europe as roundup or gall up etc ....glyphosate is the ingredient in them ..its a semi synthetic..ie its not a contact kill like paraquat ,grammoxone ..it will work its way down to the root,be careful of spray mist as this is a very powerful spray ie spray on a really calm day ..excuse my imperfect spelling

[barrybike]

pic of me on land on a hot day last february