Learning To Love Yourself

[Patsycat]

What's alcoholic dementia?? Now you're starting to worry me!!

Edited June 5, 2011 by Patsycat

[philo]

Hi Patsy.

Like your cat. Give it hug from me.

Search 'alcoholic dementia' or 'wernicke-korsakoff syndrome' or 'alcoholic encephalitis', and it will probably scare the s.it out of even your lovely cat. But I'm still drinking - that's the insanity of it.

See yah.

[StreetCowboy]

Hi Patsy.

Like your cat. Give it hug from me.

Search 'alcoholic dementia' or 'wernicke-korsakoff syndrome' or 'alcoholic encephalitis', and it will probably scare the s.it out of even your lovely cat. But I'm still drinking - that's the insanity of it.

See yah.

Glad to see you back - even in such trying circumstances.

Good luck... You've managed it before, so you can get sober again - can't you?

SC

[skippybangkok]

Used to ride a 750 honda in my early days. had 2 friends kill themselves driving drunk on bikes. Learnt that you dont need to get drunk to have fun, and if you cant have fun without getting drunk...... some things wrong.

Dont know what the fun is, puking, spinning beds, and feel like shit then next morning.........fun fun fun !

[Ijustwannateach]

After becoming aware of a number of bad habits of my own, and more importantly to look at the pain that they were covering up, I am more aware of how others are using their bad habits in ways that show they do not care for themselves. Unfortunately, the cure for this is self-awareness, which can be very painful- thus the avoidance mechanisms- but before you can *love* yourself, you have to *know* yourself.

Ultimately, the 'lesser' pain of avoidance causes damage which is much worse overall- but it's a psychological twist on the old addiction routine; if you don't stop smoking today, it probably won't kill you today, but if you do stop smoking it will be uncomfortable right away.

[Patsycat]

Philo,

I remember your story from a few years back.

You actually opened up your heart and life here. And I read it and everyday hoped that you would bounce back.

I can only wish you well.

When I can find the cable to attach my camera onto the computer i'll put some more cat photos on... there is one which will melt your heart. It does mine..

[ThaiPauly]

Hi Patsy.

Like your cat. Give it hug from me.

Search 'alcoholic dementia' or 'wernicke-korsakoff syndrome' or 'alcoholic encephalitis', and it will probably scare the s.it out of even your lovely cat. But I'm still drinking - that's the insanity of it.

See yah.

Give me a call when you can Philo

TP

[Nawtier]

Wondering if Rick to teach my wife and I to love ourselves.....

[RickThai]

Fascinating thread.

Purist AA vs. New Age.

Me myself have cirrhosis and alcoholic dementia and would like to have a new liver and brain. I find it it strange that the OP doesn't even mention the blessing he was given by the liver transplant.

Anyway, I hope that his 'pink cloud' will carry him forever. Me myself is so sick that I smuggle alcohol into the hospital when I am on a detox 'vacation'.

May you all live long and happy. And if you have a spare rope, please lift me out of this bottomless dark pit.

Alcoholism is a disease of the self - and imho the self should neither be punished nor adored - but dumped (the oriental way) or given to a higher power (the occidental way). Either way we all agree on one thing - Plug that Jug.

May the force be with you.

Philo:

I am sorry if I have given the impression that I take my new liver for granted. In fact it is just the opposite. Having a second chance at life has filled me with a sense of wonder and awe about this beautiful world we live in. My entire perspective toward spirituality, people, and existence has been profoundly changed. To me, it has given me a chance to live out my life in a more meaningful way. When I die now, I will have the peace and contentment that I tried to be a good person, a good husband, and someone who has tried to improve the world somewhat.

I know now that the world is not about how much I have, or trying to fulfill all my selfish needs. Its about appreciation of others, getting to know others, and being content with what you have, all the while seeking to understand and improve.

Last weekend my wife and I went on a fishing trip in a neighboring state. We met some people there and shared a campsite. Amazingly enough, there were two individuals there; one who had a liver transplant in 1985, and his younger brother, who was being evaluated for a liver transplant. Sadly, the older brother was totally blind, the result of an overperscribed medication while undergoing the transplant process. The younger brother was just starting to get sick, dragging around with little interest or energy. He is unemployed and didn't stand a very good chance of being approved for a liver transplant.

Seeing those two individuals really brought home to me how lucky I was to have had a good job to cover the expenses, and a world-class medical team to keep me alive during the time I went into End-stage-liver- disease. I know what the younger brother has in store for him, since I suffered horrendously during End-stage-liver-diesease. It bothers me but there is nothing I can do about it, but seek spiritual blessings.

I try and warn people with drinking problems what to expect, because believe me, there will come a time when even you will no longer want to drink. By that time, it is probably too late.

I will never go into End-stage-liver-disease again, I will take my own life first. I know what it is like. That's why I post on this forum.

Rick

Edited June 6, 2011 by RickThai

[likerdup1]

Wow. I'm learning alot from this thread. As for AA and the faith connection (God), if that helps you stay sober, then I say that is a good thing.

Other people may have different beliefs, but I still believe the important thing is to be content with yourself. A person who is unhappy tends to 'act out' in various ways.

Rick

likerdup1:

I'm glad you are sober, and I'm glad AA , combined with your faith, worked for you. Staying sober for 18+ years is really an accomplishment. However, I still think that AA is not the only way, and it definitely doesn't work for some people. I agree that you will never learn to love yourself, if you continue to drink, and I also agree that 'a spirtual awakening' or awareness if you will, is often part of recovery. I do not believe that 'spiritual awakening' can only come about through the 12 steps.

Of course you have every right to believe that, but my point is, many alcoholics (if not all), don't like themselves for some reason or another. Perhaps, they don't like themselves because they are drunks, perhaps they are drunks because they don't like themselves (kind of a chicken and egg thing), but regardless, I believe that once a person really respects themselves (i.e. loves themselves), they become at peace with the world, and their true persona can blossom. Once alcohol is no longer the center of their lives, they can move on and grow in different areas, including spiritual growth.

One thing I wonder about with AA, is that it seems that even though the members don't drink anymore, that is all they seem to talk about. Their life still revolves around alcohol.

As for me, whatever I did in my past, is history, and I will not let my future revolve around alcohol, there is too much other facinating things in the world. Besides this forum, alcohol never enters my conversations or my thoughts anymore. Once a person loves themselves, they wind up having a very happy and full life. They become to busy to worry about drinking.

At least that's what happened to me.

Rick

Hi Rick,

I appreciate your sincerity and belief "my point is, many alcoholics (if not all), don't like themselves for some reason or another." This is an interesting idea, however, to me it is tough to understand. How does one exactly "not like themselves". What does that mean really? How does one "learn to love themselves" As we saw, there were as many opinions as there were people. Nice thing about AA is there is one common solution. One common program.

I was wondering, do you attend AA meetings? Do you attend regularly? If so, I'd highly recommend studying the AA text. I had to slowly study it to really understand the program of AA. There are many many misconceptions about what the program is floating around in meetings and in the public eye. I found out through studying the book it is just as simple as I described in my earlier post. Any other information, for instance, all drunks need to do is learn to love themselves is not AA. I don't mean to criticize your idea. All I mean to point out is that it is in no way the program of AA and that the idea however nice is not a solution to solving an alcholics problem. If you believe it is I suggest you get another 99 drunks sober with the idea, then I might consider it a valid solution to alcoholism.

Best, Likerdup1

:jap:

[RickThai]

.Hi Rick,

I appreciate your sincerity and belief "my point is, many alcoholics (if not all), don't like themselves for some reason or another." This is an interesting idea, however, to me it is tough to understand. How does one exactly "not like themselves". What does that mean really? How does one "learn to love themselves" As we saw, there were as many opinions as there were people. Nice thing about AA is there is one common solution. One common program.

I was wondering, do you attend AA meetings? Do you attend regularly? If so, I'd highly recommend studying the AA text. I had to slowly study it to really understand the program of AA. There are many many misconceptions about what the program is floating around in meetings and in the public eye. I found out through studying the book it is just as simple as I described in my earlier post. Any other information, for instance, all drunks need to do is learn to love themselves is not AA. I don't mean to criticize your idea. All I mean to point out is that it is in no way the program of AA and that the idea however nice is not a solution to solving an alcholics problem. If you believe it is I suggest you get another 99 drunks sober with the idea, then I might consider it a valid solution to alcoholism.

Best, Likerdup1

:jap:

Hi Likerdup1:

No I had never attended AA. I thought I had my drinking under control and planned on living it up until the end. By the time I went into ESLD, I was too sick to continue to drink. By the time I had my liver transplant, I had been through so much and owed the doctors so much, that I could never break my vow to them that I would never drink again. To date, I have kept that vow. As I've stated in numerous posts, I am so happy to be alive and given another chance at life, that I keep too busy finding happiness in other things, to want to do any harm to my body. I also made a spiritual vow to the person whose liver now sustains me, to take care of that liver. That is enough for me to squech any desires to drink alcoholic beverages.

I think people drink for many reasons, but I do believe that if someone respects themselves (i.e. loves themself) they wouldn't do anything to deliberately harm their body. As a kid you don't know any better, but by the time you have turned into an aging alcoholic, deep down you know that your drinking is killing you, and interfering with your life.

I find that by being less self-centered, and thinking of other people more, life is more gratifying. Not giving in to self-serving urges (such as cheating, stealing, drinking, etc.) make me feel good about myself in a very deep-rooted way. That transcends any kick I've ever gotten from drink, drugs, or illicit sex. I have a happiness and contentment now that I never had prior to now. That's what I mean by loving yourself. You are happy and content with yourself and your life.

This deep-seated confidence and enjoyment of life makes you want to go out and be everybodies friend, try and get the most enjoyment out of the simple things in life; a conversation, a smile from a pretty girl, just about everything. Last summer, I was spending some time at a mountain retreat and I walked into a communal kitchen. A lady there had just finished baking an apple pie and asked me if I wanted a piece. In the past, I would have accepted the offer and gobbled down the pie. But I had been trying to lose a few pounds, so instead I declined and told the lady how much enjoyment I was getting from just the smell of the pie. She laughed and we sat down and talked while she ate her pie. I got so much enjoyment out of that simple conversation. Setting down and smelling the aroma of that pie, while the lady and I talked like we'd known each other for years, is bringing me a smile as I type this today.

When I was drinking that would never had happened. I would have been more interested in trying to get into the lady's pants, rather than getting so much enjoyment out of the moment. The fact is, that being drunk generally brings out the worst in people, and if you truly loved yourself, you wouldn't want to put yourself in that situation. Many people drink because, they gain confidence (Dutch courage) and do things they would be afraid to try otherwise. I have enough confidence now, that I don't need to drink a couple of quick ones before I get out on the dance floor, or strike up a conversation with a stranger. I don't do things that make me ashamed of myself and as a result I am more open and honest with people and with life. That brings me a lot of good things in the form of new friends and opportunities to further grow.

That's my thoughts anyway.

If AA helps you and others to find fulfillment in your life, and gives you the strength to fight the urge to drink. than I applaud AA and its members. Its just that I don't feel that it would offer me anything in my life at this point.

All my respect.

Rick

[Patsycat]

Mobi

I have just watched the singing version of Grey's Anatomy, well half of it through the tears.

Rick, none of us want to go through what you have. Thank you so much for your insight into what can happen.

[RickThai]

Thanks to everyone for their kind comments.

Philo,

I'm sorry to learn that your are in such a bad situation. I tried to think of something to say to you about your situation when I first read your post about cirrhosis and alcohol dementia, but I was unsure on how to respond.

Being as sick as you are, and not being able to get a liver transplant, would drive a person to drink, I would think. (bad joke. smile),

I'm sure you have a lot of things that you've accomplished in your life that you are proud of. I would try and continue to add to that list for my remaining time (that's bascally how I am trying to live my life now.)

Who knows, maybe quitting the sauce before you become too ill, might give you that final sense of feeling in control of your life. That way you transistion from this world on your terms.

Of course, if there is any way for you to get a liver transplant, I'd certainly look into that aspect. (I heard you can get a liver transplant in India for $17,000.00 USD (I would assume you would be taking a hell of a medical risk, though).

The important thing, I believe, is that you should be the one who controls the remainder of your life, not others, and certainly not booze. However, I get a sense that you already know that.

Wishing you all the best.

Rick

[changraider]

So if learning to love yourself has something to do with staying sober a curious alcoholic (like myself) would probably ask some questions. Probably something like this.

"OK, great, you tell me I need to learn to love myself. Now, that sounds very nice and all, but I'm a practical guy. Just how do

you do that?" What do I need to do to learn to love myself?

So, anybody? In simple terms how do you do that?

Hi LD, you're right there are no specific step by step instructions on how to love yourself in the 12 Steps or the Big Book, but I find what Rick is saying to be consistent with the AA ideas of:

Making a moral inventory

Making Amends

Acceptance

Serenity.

Anyone who has sincerely strived to do/achieve those 3 things will surely have less self-hatred.

I know one or two people who have been in AA for 30 plus years, they no longer talk about alcohol, they talk about spirituality. This seems pretty consistent with what Rick's saying too.

All the best.

[Ijustwannateach]

Hi Rick,

I appreciate your sincerity and belief "my point is, many alcoholics (if not all), don't like themselves for some reason or another." This is an interesting idea, however, to me it is tough to understand. How does one exactly "not like themselves". What does that mean really? How does one "learn to love themselves" As we saw, there were as many opinions as there were people. Nice thing about AA is there is one common solution. One common program.

I was wondering, do you attend AA meetings? Do you attend regularly? If so, I'd highly recommend studying the AA text. I had to slowly study it to really understand the program of AA. There are many many misconceptions about what the program is floating around in meetings and in the public eye. I found out through studying the book it is just as simple as I described in my earlier post. Any other information, for instance, all drunks need to do is learn to love themselves is not AA. I don't mean to criticize your idea. All I mean to point out is that it is in no way the program of AA and that the idea however nice is not a solution to solving an alcholics problem. If you believe it is I suggest you get another 99 drunks sober with the idea, then I might consider it a valid solution to alcoholism.

Best, Likerdup1

:jap:

I can offer a viewpoint on this question.

Many people, for a variety of reasons that usually have something to do with incompetent or terrible or abusive or absentee or cold parenting during childhood- are taught either directly or by circumstances that they are not worth much. This kind of teaching can happen at a very early age, and doesn't need spoken language for its lessons. Unfortunately, this is more common than people often recognise, and doesn't require physical violence to occur (in fact, physical violence makes recovery a bit easier for the victim because it is hard to misidentify).

Children cannot survive this kind of attitude from their primary caretakers without extreme adaptation. One of the common forms of adaptation is to bury the real, wounded self to protect it and to 'forget' the painful lesson of the family. This can help a person survive this kind of 'wounded' childhood, but it entails burying all kinds of other important things, like most real feelings (for bad and for good). Children growing up this way lack emotional experience; and yet, they may not even know what has happened to them- actually, that is an 'ideal' result for the wounded self because it does not have to face the pain. So many people who do not love themselves do not because... they do not even know themselves, or where those selves are, or what has happened to them, or how long ago. Many types of feelings may be simulated, but they will never be as real or satisfying as the feelings of the real self. After a few decades, such a way of living may even seem 'normal'.

However, lacking the full range of feelings which have been buried, people cannot live well or comfortably with other people. People, especially loving people, provoke feelings- something which must be avoided at all costs lest the buried self be suddenly, painfully exposed. Although this initially was for the benefit and protection of the self, it becomes a trap and a prison, especially as the adult victim becomes challenged by feelings from the past and stymied by numbness in the present. One way to keep the balance when things start to go out of control, and numb back down again, is with delusions and addictions (of all kinds, whether to substances or behaviours).

Even though the self was buried to protect it, can this continue for so long and it still be true that we *love* our selves, that have been locked away? What does self-esteem mean to someone who may even have forgotten that real self exists? It isn't any wonder that eventually, as such people age, they may head down self-destructive paths.

I would guess that many people who have addictions experience a feeling of emptiness inside. What I would advise as a first step, is to practice looking at this emptiness internally, as often and as long as you can stand- with practice you should be able to do this longer and longer. I can't predict what you specifically will find there eventually, but I do know it will be something important to you and it will lead to your self.

Secondly, ask yourself what you would advise others to do if they cared for themselves- it's pretty common sense- and then try hard to do those things. Go exercise, take a holiday, hang out with people who make you feel good about yourself, eat well, try to avoid as many addictive behaviours as possible. Aside from these things all being good ideas, they are part of an 'actions speak louder than words' effort to convince your self... the grammar gets a little tricky here... that you care about yourself, and that it is safe for yourself to reveal him/herself to you.

I hope this perspective is useful to someone.