The Music Is Over

[ozzieovaseas]

lets say i want to get a workpermit to play at the bars,pubs etc.

should i get it renewed or changed every night i have a gig ?

as far as i know theres only one employer at the time in your workpermit

anyone knows?

should'nt be that hard..maybe you just need to buy a few pots of tea every night

(no-im not a cynic)

[TimTang]

lets say i want to get a workpermit to play at the bars,pubs etc.

should i get it renewed or changed every night i have a gig ?

as far as i know theres only one employer at the time in your workpermit

anyone knows?

There is a visa or work permit that does cover that but I'm not aware of the specifics. I talked to someone at the labor department briefly about this. They informed me that there is an audition to determine whether you're not just bull$hitting, and you have to prove that there are venues willing to hire you at a wage significantly higher than local musicians.

I've known a couple of people that actually qualified, but they were true virtuosos on their instrument and also taught in their spare time. One of them actually played with the King.

I would recommend you look into it. I think you have to be pretty good at what you do to qualify.

[TimTang]

maybe they will make a law that's agains't the law for farangs to go to the bathroom with out paying the towel person.

Maybe? It's already against the law. If you get caught wiping your own ass you could be in deep $hit! (no pun intended...well...maybe). There are Thais that are more than willing to perform that duty for a wage. Don't even think about masturbating; what do you think the hand-job bars are for?

:cheesy:

dont tell me...errr...what about the farang "working" on starting a family with his new thai wife??

What! You've never heard of artificial insemination? Oh ye who laugh whilst lacking of knowledge!

The Gods will surly punish you in the afterlife.

Edited June 2, 2011 by TimTang

[nocturn]

you think a single member of the entire cast of Hangover II had a work permit?

yes, i do. as does every major performer who performs in thailand.

[janverbeem]

ya this is informative but i'm not sure if it is correct outside Chang Mai.

i have heard from many sources that volunteer work does not violate the Alien Work Act.

you cannot do work that a Thai can get paid for. Thai's don't do volunteer work.

You probably forget that the foreign rescue teams needed a workpermit during the Phuket tsunami.

[animatic]

you think a single member of the entire cast of Hangover II had a work permit?

yes, i do. as does every major performer who performs in thailand.

Correct.

[Puccini]

it's madness[/color][/size][/font]

Or, in other words, this is Thailand; amazing Thailand.

[TimTang]

ya this is informative but i'm not sure if it is correct outside Chang Mai.

i have heard from many sources that volunteer work does not violate the Alien Work Act.

you cannot do work that a Thai can get paid for. Thai's don't do volunteer work.

You probably forget that the foreign rescue teams needed a workpermit during the Phuket tsunami.

Yes! and there were many unscrupulous foreigners that saw it as an opportunity to extend their visa by pretending to help.

[wotaplonker]

oh thats good just as i was going to release my new Symphony no 5, 'Thailand Dreams' or "ok 1500 baht St dammit"

[Sloototter]

Do not ask me to sing a song for you.!!!!

Not even a little song!!!!!

Not even one note on my guitar!!!!

I do not want any trouble!!!!!!

Guitar for sale!!!

Or shall I leave?????

I smoke, I make music, I drink a bit, Sometime I download from the internet, I used to have a free opinion, I grow up with freedom of speech.....????.......!!!!!!!!

HELP I'M A CRIMINAL!!!!!!!!!!

[dale8]

Hello, and welcome to the newest crackdown on a few dozen foreigners. Are there many thousands of people from Burma, Cambodia, China, and Laos working illegal in Thailand too or do the government officials in Thailand get paid to look the other way? Are there thousands of young ladies working in massage businesses being made to use their body for prostitution or do the government officials get paid to look the other way? How many people are the foreigners hurting or how many jobs do the foreigners take when they play music in a bar and can the foreigners make enough money to support themselves? To debate the government officials in Thailand is futile as they will always win an arguement because they are Thai. Good luck to fight this crackdown.

Edited June 2, 2011 by dale8

[Buchholz]

He even goes so far as to mention the tourist police in Chiang Mai, who employ foreign 'volunteers' who are technically working without official work permits, "please tell them that that is illegal! They need to come and report to me.

Hum 'please tell them'?

Good article as you say but it really is a case of 'Amazing Thailand'

I think this needs telling to the tourist police volunteers and FVP in Pattaya, what they are doing is illegal?

It's good to finally have the definitive final word on foreign tourist police volunteers.

Whenever it was inquired about on earlier threads, it was always met with obfuscation and stonewalling.

Now, at last, we know what is what and where they stand regarding work permits.

They are illegally working.

[Tokay]

very impressive statement!!!!!

Vanessa May is half Thai / Chinese!!!! do you know her? Do you know how hard to play Violin?

besides, we have been talkin' about jamming at a venue, that is in Public.

from your comment, I assume that you can tune most musical instruments. what is the standard guitar tuning then? middle C ? .... what is no sharp no flat?

many Thai groups in walking street ,Pattaya. I know them ... Excellent skills though

-----do you think you are keith urban?

Yeh! Lets give it up for Vanessa May. There are always exceptions to the rule and I'd wager it is the Chinese in her that causes her to excel, as they are often amazing musicians.

And I've yet to hear any Thai group on Walking Street who doesn't make my ears hurt, and I've been here for a long time. Of course if you're drunk, I'm sure they ALL sound great. Maybe they sound better if you know them? The best bands I've heard in Pattaya are mostly made of foreigners.

Sure, here and there I come across some talent in Thailand, as do we all, but it really is the exception to the rule. Most of them seem to literally be tone deaf, which I find most bizarre considering their language is based on tones.

To answer your "who do you think you are" question, I attended Berklee and majored in music theory and composition, where I later taught for six years. An injury ended my music career, as I no longer have full control of two of my fingers on my left hand.

Next.

[Tokay]

it's madness[/color][/size][/font]

Or, in other words, this is Thailand; amazing Thailand.

The word is called XENOPHOBIA.

[artvarkk]

Once again... Thailand shoots itself in the foot.

[Davyro]

A lot of <deleted> written here by posters.

If a Thai musician, or sportsperson, comes to UK or USA to do their thing, they need a performers or sporting visa. No difference here.

I knock Thailand a lot, but I don't see why people who can strum a guitar, or play the piano, should get off with financing their stay here by earning a few baht without the proper permissions and permits.

Taksin comes to the UK buys a house in Belgravia,London. Buys and sells Man City football club you think he had a work permit?? Yes more fool the UK , Thai musicins come to the Uk. To the US, Australia, Many Thai's are living and working in these countries why do we have to feel we are not really worthy or welcome here? It's not tit for tat, live music being played is good for farangs it is good for Thai musicians also. All muscians like to learn and enjoy each others style. The cities could be alive with music and yes, if its allowed , creative people will follow here, of all nationalities, because thats how it works. People want to be where its at!! so it won't just be people hacking out cover songs. It can only be good for tourism and local business. If it's not the law then change it!! A few years back was it law for not wearing a crash helmet on a motor bike? they managed to changed that law !! It used to be 30 days entry visa, anything can be changed.

[retell]

lets say i want to get a workpermit to play at the bars,pubs etc.

should i get it renewed or changed every night i have a gig ?

as far as i know theres only one employer at the time in your workpermit

anyone knows?

[TongueThaied]

Can't blame the immigration police. The law is the law. Unpaid volunteer work without a work permit is prohibited. If I volunteer as a carpenter to help build a shop for somebody without a work permit, it is illegal. What is different about volunteering to play music on stage at a business? We do want a country governed by law, right? If the law is bad, it should be changed. It is unfortunate that a foreigner that is serious about living here permanently cannot get "immigrant" status more easily.

In the meantime, no more karoke for me!

[blabla1]

Can't blame the immigration police. The law is the law. Unpaid volunteer work without a work permit is prohibited. If I volunteer as a carpenter to help build a shop for somebody without a work permit, it is illegal. What is different about volunteering to play music on stage at a business? We do want a country governed by law, right? If the law is bad, it should be changed. It is unfortunate that a foreigner that is serious about living here permanently cannot get "immigrant" status more easily.

In the meantime, no more karoke for me!

The law is the law, i hate that quote, why are we the only ones who have to abide by it??? prostitution is against the law, gambling is against the law etc...

all common everyday activities in Thailand, so where's the law???? the Police, representatives of the law are profiting from your quote"the law is the law"

[SICHONSTEVE]

The WHOLE thing is a complete and utter mess with nobody seemingly knowing what's allowed and legal and what is taboo and may or may not be illegal.

There is too much ambiguity here with different departments imposing their own interpretation of matters according to how they see it!!! Why on earth can't they decide on and implement rules and regulations that are clear cut and precise and not so open to personal interpretation which is only going to cause complete confusion and concerns for everyone about doing something unwittingly just in case they are arrested for it.

People may not agree with these laws but it lessens the risk of falling fail of them if they understand what they are all about.

Because THAT would actually make sense.

Oh, well, I used to be disgusted.

But now I'm just amused

You have to agree that sensibility and logical thought are traits not often employed by Thailand's lawmakers in devising some of the ludicrous laws that only seem to make life more difficult for people (especially expats)!!!!!! Or are they?????

[blabla1]

lets say i want to get a workpermit to play at the bars,pubs etc.

should i get it renewed or changed every night i have a gig ?

as far as i know theres only one employer at the time in your workpermit

anyone knows?

Speculation has it like this!! you can get a work permit to play music around the place, you have to qualify(no idea) then list the names of venues and how much they will be paying you and for how long, letters from the venues needed, then it's possible to get a 6 week at a time,work permit and so on, i have been checking all sorts of possibilities, but as yet, no real concrete answers! Except that if you are on a retirement visa,you should play golf!!

[cup-O-coffee]

The man seems reasonable in his views on this, and also in the method that he enforces what he logically explains as a breach of law. This is one of the better explanations I have read about enforcing the law, but adding a bit of common sense.

I think one problem is that the authorities who issue permits are not visible and accessible enough. In Thailand, foreigners have to go digging for anything they want, and there really is no place to find what you want. Even searching for things in Thailand using the Internet is ludicrous. Even the government websites are downright confusing and loaded with dead links.

Almost every search I have tried always ends up with vague and ambiguous replies or information. The English translated websites are downright pathetic. Thai government databases are not synced across the land. Officials at their desks are seem to have their own interpretation of the laws, and those interpretations never seem to sync with what one gleans from the Internet.

Did Thailand ever stop to think that maybe foreigners would be more compliant if they had more transparent access to what they had to do?

-AND- perhaps we would not find ourselves in these situations if that information was reliable and perhaps even respected by ALL officials across the land.

The is no single standard!

Claiming ignorance is a bad way to put it. It's more like being mislead that gets foreigners in the spot. Maybe that's why most of us are so skeptical and negative towards these loons when they open their pie holes and utter, or launch an Internet website with dozens of dead links or horrendous English text.

Edited June 3, 2011 by cup-O-coffee

[blabla1]

here here!!

The man seems reasonable in his views on this, and also in the method that he enforces what he logically explains as a breach of law. This is one of the better explanations I have read about enforcing the law, but adding a bit of common sense.

I think one problem is that the authorities who issue permits are not visible and accessible enough. In Thailand, foreigners have to go digging for anything they want, and there really is no place to find what you want. Even searching for things in Thailand using the Internet is ludicrous. Even the government websites are downright confusing and loaded with dead links.

Almost every search I have tried always ends up with vague and ambiguous replies or information. The English translated websites are downright pathetic. Thai government databases are not synced across the land. Officials at their desks are seem to have their own interpretation of the laws, and those interpretations never seem to sync with what one gleans from the Internet.

Did Thailand ever stop to think that maybe foreigners would be more compliant if they had more transparent access to what they had to do?

-AND- perhaps we would not find ourselves in these situations if that information was reliable and perhaps even respected by ALL officials across the land.

The is no single standard!

Claiming ignorance is a bad way to put it. It's more like being mislead that gets foreigners in the spot. Maybe that's why most of us are so skeptical and negative towards these loons when they open their pie holes and utter, or launch an Internet website with dozens of dead links or horrendous English text.

[Samuian]

It's clear, artists, especially foreign freelancing musicians do harm the sensitively woven and absolutely unblemished social fabric of thai society to it's very core, nay music, specially foreign, is threatening it's social peace and unity!

it's a very well known fact that blues, rock'n roll makes insane, just look at all these long haired, bald headed, tattoed misfits!

[blabla1]

Maybe you should close that can of worms!

It's clear, artists, especially foreign freelancing musicians do harm the sensitively woven and absolutely unblemished social fabric of thai society to it's very core, nay music, specially foreign, is threatening it's social peace and unity!

it's a very well known fact that blues, rock'n roll makes insane, just look at all these long haired, bald headed, tattoed misfits!

[maidu]

yet another way in which Thailand tourist industry is shooting itself in its feet. There are many reasons why Thailand should encourage all the farang musicians it can: Here are some:

>>> it makes venues more attractive. More visitors = more money spent, everybody's happy.

>>> It might influence Thai musicians to improve their skills. I bet there's not one successful Thai pop musician who has not honed his craft overseas. Same for Thais in the recording industry. Currently, Thai pop music is flaccid at best.

>>> Nearly all influencial musicians have honed their craft by gigging at the fringes of society. Thai officialdom, by mandating musicians conform to bureaucratic rules, are continuing the tradition of ever-sappy Thai music.

i have a plan to end up in chiang mai and open a shop selling alternative music and t-shirts and hopefully get international diy punk bands up there to play. sounds like it may not be a good idea anymore!

Chiang Mai is digressing to ever lessening creativity. If you're planning to be involved with fun invigorating music, go to someplace like Majorca, NW coast of the USA, New Orleans, anywhere in the Caribbean, or pretty much anywhere in Latin America - especially Colombia. Many places in Africa are still hotbeds of vibrant new music. On the other end of the spectrum is Thailand and most places in Asia.

[Samuian]

Maybe you should close that can of worms!

It's clear, artists, especially foreign freelancing musicians do harm the sensitively woven and absolutely unblemished social fabric of thai society to it's very core, nay music, specially foreign, is threatening it's social peace and unity!

it's a very well known fact that blues, rock'n roll makes insane, just look at all these long haired, bald headed, tattoed misfits!

Jasper said: "Why me?????????"

[Rama]

Let's see - how can we torpedo our own efforts to be a Creative City status - let's have a bureaucrat gone wild. Chase out all the international people that are creative - and decrease tourism and expat spending in one blow! A show of bureaucratic zeal and power.

Chiang Mai wants Creative City status - just like Bangkok was to be a traffic hub, and a fashion hub, and a medical hub. Like all things Thai, no one in control and as a result - orderly chaos.

If he's aware that the tourist police volunteers don't have work permits. why doesn't he enforce the law???????? Is he afraid of enforcing the law when the police are the ones breaking the law? Maybe the police don't realize that they are breaking the law - has he made the police aware that they are breaking the law?

Maybe the police should be told that the head of the labor dept is not enforcing the law.................then we can have a real circle j---

[getgoin]

Excellent article by CityLife and great to hear from the labor department. In the middle of all the conjecture it is great to finally see a clear picture of what is going on. While it is sad to see that musicians will not be allowed to obtain a living without a work permit what would be the difference of a waiter or waitress or bartender performing their craft or art? What about a foreign real estate agent or attorney who has studied for their professions? The builder building a home? The writer writing for the local paper?

People talk about the double standard or the corruption and then when the law in enforced they scream foul or discrimination.

I personally see nothing wrong with musicians playing, artists painting, singers singing and strippers stripping but at the end of the day work is work and illegal work is still illegal work. If you have to perform your craft in public then you'd be better off with a work permit. Sorry but it is the law and any debate should state the facts. If it were me or if I could have a say in things... well... I don't because I am not a citizen here but I'm not sure that even in the US I would be for any profession being able to perform their craft or do their job or their profession outside the rules of the law but I might be OK with it.

Let's face it the laws of a country are there to protect its citizens and not the few illegal immigrants working to make a living even if it is for their families. Countries without borders is not something that we will ever see in our lifetimes but it might be a nice dream.

My advice to musicians and bar owners is to figure out how to work within the law. If everyone was working legally then the odd men/women jamming on stage would not be arrested in the sweep.

Again a great job by CityLife.

[steveyinasia]

Will the last tourist please turn off the lights before you leave