crgram Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 'you've got nothing to say, and you are saying too much of it' Love it.....probably could refer to most of the expats in LOS... not me of course cr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 So much for rule 31. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suradit Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex [..] I totally agree with you, that's why I never went to Pattaya... not that I don't like sex but, for what I heard about the place I'm rather sure that it's not the kind of tourist site that I would love to stay in. sorry but that's a really stupid remark. If you don't know a place yourself, how can you judge it? Thais themselves come to Pattaya in very large numbers and enjoy the party atmosphere (actually Thais are the largest group of tourists in the city), so you are 'better' than the Thais? It is hard to bear listening people who think they are on moral highground. I would recommend you to take a look yourself and enjoy this colorful city which is much more interesting, lively and colorful than many others in the world. Of course it has downsides - but then, others have as well, especially Bangkok or many over-regulated Western cities. Back to topic: the Russian tourists - well they have their own culture, and it is about time that our Northern European friends learn to deal with them. If you meet them on a person-to-person basis, most of them are very nice and warm people, and many much better educated than the average European tourist, let alone Americans. just my 2 cents, p. Amen. The pontificating gets a little old. It's a bit like all these supposed family-value, right-wing politicians in the US bemoaning the slide in morality and destruction of the traditional family. The more they point their self-righteous fingers at all and sundry, the more likely it is they're knee-deep in adultrous affairs, soliciting on the Internet or cruising airport men's rooms. If you're afraid you might rub elbows with a real-life sex tourist, then join a monastery ... although that might be tempting fate too. There's busloads of Indian, Chinese and Thai families setting off for the islands every morning along Beach Rd, along which many people are walking or jogging for exercise as you would expect in any beach resort town. If you've ever been in any of the upscale or midscale hotels like the Dusit Resort or Marriott, let alone the Royal Cliff, those places are hardly filled with seedy sex tourists. Certainly if you don't make a point of visiting the few areas given over to gogo bars, most of the resident & visiting non-Thai population you'll encounter is increasingly made up of retirees. While some may still be sexually active, most look like it's more of a distant memory. Pattaya has grown a lot in the past decade in terms of infrastructure, businesses, hotels, malls, condos and other residential property, while at the same time the areas with the gogo bars have stayed pretty much constant and there seems to be a big turnover amongst those, suggesting they're not generating enough business to remain profitable. As I've said before, Pattaya love it or loathe it, but get over it. If you're not a sex tourist yourself, you can easily spend time here without even being aware of their presence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger1999 Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I visit Pattaya once per year and usually it's rather boring. I stay in Jomtien and there is not a lot to do there. I do feel bad when I go into town and see young couples with their young children in tow. I feel that they have been duped into coming there. Vast areas of Mexico are perfectly safe, but you do need to know the few areas to avoid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich54321 Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 The company is targeting hotels that cater almost exclusively to Scandinavians in order to avoid the cultural clashes that seem to be occurring. THERES A CULTURAL CLASH just Scandinavians in a hotel????? so where are the other nationalities going to be - the report by Christian Clemens, CEO of TUI Nordic is excluding everyone else - albeit there might be noisy Russians around but hey when all the Thais love 4000 decibel noisy bars and shouting at each other instead of talking - is the noise level on a par with the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lifeincnx Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 ....I must add this guy sounds a little crazy ( read a lot ) to suggest Mexico will be a rival to Thiland ref tourism, nobody dare go to Mexico because of the drug murders. I have Mexican relatives living in LA who are too afraid to cross the border to visit their own family. does this guy work for TOT //??????? Actually, he's right on Mexico to Thailand comparisons. Today, Thailand ranks third in the world for gun related killings, after South Africa and Columbia. Thailand had 20,032 gun-related killings per year. Currently Mexico, even with drug cartel- related deaths, ranks sixth with 2,606 per year. A little more Buddhism please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FOODLOVER Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 When encountering Russians one must always be aware that their children may be near and never get between them. Do not feed or tease the Russians. If you must carry vodka either bury it or hang it in a tree. If a gaggle of Russians appear stop, drop, and roll, as it confuses them. Always be aware of your surroundings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softgeorge Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham I totally agree with you, that's why I never went to Pattaya... not that I don't like sex but, for what I heard about the place I'm rather sure that it's not the kind of tourist site that I would love to stay in. I'm with you agree 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kutjebu Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham I totally agree with you, that's why I never went to Pattaya... not that I don't like sex but, for what I heard about the place I'm rather sure that it's not the kind of tourist site that I would love to stay in. funny i had a pizza on the beach last night and washed it down with a bottle of bubbly a nice sunset from the free beach chairs and a crew of wind surfers carving through the water and the sunset some kids playing in the waves a few hawkers selling seafood didnt see any sex or workers funny that That sounds boring.You must be already old,then you can better hear the Russians.Nesdrovja mates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manarak Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 has the policy on linking to / quoting the BP changed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 has the policy on linking to / quoting the BP changed? Double standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littleboylost Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Since when has Mexico been in the Caribbean? I think he needs to buy an atlas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superpeis Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham I totally agree with you, that's why I never went to Pattaya... not that I don't like sex but, for what I heard about the place I'm rather sure that it's not the kind of tourist site that I would love to stay in. I have been living in Pattaya for 3 months now...and I LOVE the place...the best and most funny city in the world!!!! With so many cool and friendly people... and the most sexy and beautiful girls in ASIA... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superpeis Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham I totally agree with you, that's why I never went to Pattaya... not that I don't like sex but, for what I heard about the place I'm rather sure that it's not the kind of tourist site that I would love to stay in. I have been living in Pattaya for 3 months now...and I LOVE the place...the best and most funny city in the world!!!! With so many cool and friendly people... and the most sexy and beautiful girls in ASIA... BTW...I am Norwegian and have never had any problems with the russians...or any other nationality here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertson468 Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 There are already in Pattaya some places exclusively made for Scandinavian , so I propose they stick to it , if they cannot accept that other people have different way of being on holidays ,they should stay home. Russians can be noisy but they pay like any body else , dont forget that Russian only travel not long ago and they have to learn many things. Do you want to lock your tourists in some "ghettos" to have peace ? Ridiculous ..... I been in many hotels full of Russian tourists , they are not more noisy than some drunk English or Germans. And without those Russians , many hotels would have already closed in Thailand. I dont like Chinese tourists , they have no manners at all , shall I ask the hotels to change their policy ? I've been living in Patts for over 4 of the past 6 years. I've seen first hand the transition it's taken between having a handful of Russians here and not being able to swing a cat without hitting 10 of them. In that time, I've also had a sharp rise in the number of issues I've had with non Thais in Thailand and it's been due to annoying, rude Russians. For whatever reason, the majority of them simply seem to not care about others. They have this unfounded sense of superiority and are oblivious to others. Sometimes this works out as they simply ignore anyone that is not Russian that they don't HAVE to interact with. But the rest of the time, they simply act as if they're entitled to do as they wish. I've stayed in hotels with a large number of Russians, Indians, Arabs and Chinese and I can say, completely based off experience and not prejudice that the Russians and Arabs were the worst. In terms of being loud and inconsiderate of others, they win hands down. Who cares if they spend some money? I guarantee I've spent more money than many dozens of average Russian tourists and I did it without being an asshol_e to others. They don't make up the even a quarter of the total tourism market so if thy're annoying the other 75%+ then it's a problem. Russians may spend money on hotel rooms but that's about it. They don't spend money in small/medium locally owned business unless it's selling Russian food or one of the few nightlife spots that cater to them. They are quite stingy, don't tip and don't spread their money around. So if the few hotels, restaurants and nightlife venues that cater to them went out of business, no one would notice except that Patts was a nicer place of all sudden. This town does not need them to survive at all. It did just fine 6-7 years ago when the Russian market was a tiny fraction of total tourism and it was doing much better without their wanna-be mafia crime groups. As for the Chinese, it's completely different. I've never seen Chinese tourists mingling with others. They go to hotels that exclusively cater to the Asian tour operators, stick together in tight packs with tour guides and that's about it. Unless you purposely sought out a hotel or restaurant that the tour operates bring them to, you would never see them. Well, except for when they are being bussed in and out of town. And why should I have to accept other people being rude and inconsiderate or stay home? Why should the status quo be to just assume that when I go somewhere on holiday that I will have to deal with low class, annoying people? Sorry but it's other way around... If you can't act like a decent, civilized person and have some respect for others, then YOU stay home. As has been said in another comment - stereotyping is very sad. I have several houses for rent and have three returning couples every year, for the last three years. They are kind, polite and very grateful for whatever help we can give them - finding cars for hire, good quality tailors, various tours at discounted prices and so on. We get on so well, I no longer look upon them as guests, but as friends and we even go out socialising together and even invited one of our returning German couples, just to blow the whole theory on noisy Russians and Germans. I have come across one nasty piece of work in Samui. He rented a bar from one of my customers and was constantly late with the rent, which embarrassed my customer no end, especially when he went to see the Russian, who just walked away from him without so much as bye your leave. I told my customer to go after him and I would come along too as morale support. Once confronted and I asked why he was disrespecting and embarrassing my customer, Khun Russian suddenly could no longer engage my eyes when talking - classical symptom of going into a pink funk when someone faces up to them. Anyway, he got paid and this was the only bad Russian I have come across. Another customer bought a car for cash from a Brit. The Brit had bought the car from a third party having arranged a cash deposit and to pay the rest of the finance agreement until fully paid up. The customer also gave him 1 million baht for a business deal. The Brit high-tailed it and did not pay of the car or return the 1 million baht. One could say that my customers were a bit soft, or they just put their faith in other people, who they thought would do the right thing, As has also been said, it is time that some on this forum got out from behind their laptops, met some of the tourists of all Nationalities, engaged with them and developed a better understand of them and their culture - you might just enjoy it and enhance an otherwise insular lifestyle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starcatcher Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I ran a bar before in Cambodia. The best guests, we could get, were Russians and Cambodians as these were the only 2 groups spending money like crazy. We also ran a guesthouse that time. With much money and time we made nice rooms. The first customers we had (for longer then one month they stayed) were Scandinavians (Finnland). They tried to run away without paying their last bill and the rooms looked like, well, I can not decribe... we had to refurbish the rooms again, they had. Never had seen like this before. When I travel through Thailand/Southeast Asia, I also meet many people and also many complaining about the Russians in Pattaya. Maybe they are right. But when I'm running a business there, I also prefer to have those guests spending money. If they are more noisy or not, I never care. And the last years I heared also many saying, that Pattaya is getting less and less busy. So, well, if I have to decide between 4 hotels full of Scandinavians or the whole city full of Russians, I also would prefer the Russians... money rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taichiplanet Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Some films need an over 18 certificate, perhaps Pattaya needs the same You mean visitors coming to Pattaya need an IQ over 18! Luckily the ones with IQs below 18 have already made up their minds about Pattaya without ever visiting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tlansford Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 IMO, the last thing Thailand needs is to court Russian tourists. I was privately dismayed when I read recently that the Russians were the largest nationality of tourists from a non-asian country. Let me admit, *I'm very biased. I don't like Russian tourists*, but, 1) I've seen what Russian tourism did to some areas of the Red Sea, and 2) I care about Thailand, its culture, and its people The article is dead-on : other tourists/nationalities do not like Russian tourists. For example, when hotels in the Red Sea had too many Russians, the word spread, and soon the only tourists the hotel could book were Russian. The Germans, Swedes, and other tourists did not want to put up with Russians, period. Now, ... not limited to the topic of tourists' nationalities, ... Tourism is important to the Thai economy - and Thailand has natural beauty, a beautiful culture, and a long, interesting history to offer to tourists. It would be a shame if Thailand did not nurture and take care of these aspects of its tourism attractions. I believe that when tourists come to a country to discover its culture and natural beauty, then they come with an appreciation of - and a respect - for that culture and country. Such tourists tend to defy their own national stereo-types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooner Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Mexico a alternative to Thailand. How? Never been to the west coast but I have been to Cancun and Its was EXPENSIVE! London prices! Got some amazing beaches there but I think to get somewhere near the same bang for you buck you would have to get out of the tourist areas. And make sure you don't end up there at Spring break. Those Americans can make some noise to! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
normac44 Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I visit Pattaya once per year and usually it's rather boring. I stay in Jomtien and there is not a lot to do there. I do feel bad when I go into town and see young couples with their young children in tow. I feel that they have been duped into coming there. Vast areas of Mexico are perfectly safe, but you do need to know the few areas to avoid. Jomtien is a boring place anyway."Need to know the ares to avoid" that applies to most Cities in the world even here in Melbourne. If you don't like Pattaya then why go there.I am freezing my arse off here in about 4 degrees temp and would give anything to be sitting in a Bar in Soi 8 right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karazyal Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 "I totally agree with you, that's why I never went to Pattaya... not that I don't like sex but, for what I heard about the place I'm rather sure that it's not the kind of tourist site that I would love to stay in." * I always get a kick out of stupid comments like this! Usually you read "I have never been there" or "I read this in so and so" or "my friend told me" that Pattaya is no good, etc. Maybe you ought to visit first before you condemn something you have never seen first hand! If you ever visit you won't be out any money, it is easy to get to Pattaya for peanuts on a bus. Since the hotels and restaurants are cheaper you may even save money on your little expedition into the jungles of Darkest Pattaya! (And don't worry - nothing you see or experience will scar you for life and there will not be any Scarlet Letter painted on your back!) Do you think they made all of those new huge modern malls just for sex tourists? Visit one in the evening - they are full of women tourists shopping, female tourists alone or in small groups, family groups, etc. Many tourists visit Pattaya just for a cheap holiday, a place to relax and perhaps take tours and shop. Many of these tourists are couples and family groups returning again and again. There are many tourists that visit Pattaya often and rarely ever even go to any bars. There are retirees living in Pattaya who never go to bars. Hotels are cheaper in Pattaya, transportation is cheap at only 10 baht, supermarkets are clean and modern, decent medical and dental facilities and the life is easy going. No one is forced to go into a bar against his or her will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pavlik Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I happen to be a Russian and I find this conversation strange to say the least. I run a business in Thailand, quite obviously, I get my living from Russian tourists. I work legally and I pay all the taxes. Before I moved to where i am now, i used to live on Koh Lanta. Many would agree, that Lanta is mostly scandinavian island (speaking of scandinavian tour operators) and I can tell that some of the tourists on Lanta are as noisy and annoying as maybe some Russians in Pattaya. But that's the way they are and I am not blaming anybody for the way they like to spend their holiday. In the end of a day, everyone has the right to spend their holiday where they want to and the way they like to and if some tour operators are annoyed by other nationalities, well, maybe they can look for opportunities to provide better services for their customers rather than whining in media. Now the only thing I wonder is why some users so absolutely sure that all russians in Pattaya are 'Mafia'? Have they ever met any real russian mafia or is it just soviet stereotype? It's been more than 20 years since USSR and things has changed slightly, so maybe you guys should go out and get some education instead of sitting on the webforums posting stuff that you have no idea about ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OZEMADE Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 So much for rule 31. Is that bit under Rule 31 part of Rule 31. Nah I was just Joking. :jap: Just a bit of light hearted stuff on Politics in TVF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whybother Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 So much for rule 31. Is that bit under Rule 31 part of Rule 31. Nah I was just Joking. :jap: Just a bit of light hearted stuff on Politics in TVF. Come on. We can't have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elshaheen Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Pattaya does get a mix of different cultures coming there, but that also coincides to the seasons in Northern European countries, not only for Russians, but also German, French, Swedes and Norwegians. The Russians come in large numbers, generally as couples or families on holiday. They settle into Pattaya for up to two weeks and rely heavily on hotel food-and-beverage services, the most profitable portion of a hotel's business. Best of all, the Russians seem blissfully ignorant of the sex industry. While jaded Asian beach junkies wait for a reason to give Pattaya a second chance, the Russians are sprinting for the sand. Scandinavians usually go down to Phuket for their winter holidays. According to an article written: Family-friendly? The challenges facing Pattaya By John Le Fevre 19 April, 2011 for cnngo.com. He writes: “Pattaya is really two different cities in one," he says. "You have Pattaya the tourist destination, which is seeing an increasing number of Russian and Middle East visitors, some of whom are coming with their families, and Pattaya the residential city with thousands of foreigners, more than 50 percent of whom are below 50 years old, settling here because of the climate and ability to have as normal a life as they could in their home country, but at a much lower cost of living.” When I go to Pattaya to get out of Bangkok for a day or two maybe up to a week if I can afford it. I already know the places not to hang out. I already have a community of friends who I hang out with when I go down there. Some of them are sex workers at night, but in the day. No. I don’t condemn or judge them for this. They will share with me about what’s going on in Pattaya. Of course Middle Eastern people are viewed as being rude and inconsiderate of those around them. Russians are loud, but put up with. Plus they are great to party with. I used to party with them all the time when I was in the Navy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OzMick Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I visit Pattaya once per year and usually it's rather boring. I stay in Jomtien and there is not a lot to do there. I do feel bad when I go into town and see young couples with their young children in tow. I feel that they have been duped into coming there. Vast areas of Mexico are perfectly safe, but you do need to know the few areas to avoid. Jomtien is a boring place anyway."Need to know the ares to avoid" that applies to most Cities in the world even here in Melbourne. If you don't like Pattaya then why go there.I am freezing my arse off here in about 4 degrees temp and would give anything to be sitting in a Bar in Soi 8 right now. Pattaya is better than Melbourne in the winter! Talk about damned with faint praise! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sb1983 Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 annoying, rude Russians. For whatever reason, the majority of them simply seem to not care about others. They have this unfounded sense of superiority and are oblivious to others. Sometimes this works out as they simply ignore anyone that is not Russian that they don't HAVE to interact with. But the rest of the time, they simply act as if they're entitled to do as they wish.I've stayed in hotels with a large number of Russians, Indians, Arabs and Chinese and I can say, completely based off experience and not prejudice that the Russians and Arabs were the worst. In terms of being loud and inconsiderate of others, they win hands down Hello everybody. I am Russian, I was born in the capital of Russia, Moscow and agree with all have been said by Angelo99 in a quote above. Rude and drunk people acting themselves as an animals is a huge problem in Russia too. Fortunately you don't see most them in other countries because they have no money to go there. Most of the Russians go to Turkey and Egypt on vacation because it is very cheap. For example package tour to Egypt for 7 days including hotel, airplane ticket will cost about $300. Of course not any Russian will behave as a swine, but unfortunately there many people who are not too polite. Actually I don't know why there are so many rude and not polite people in Russia. Maybe it's because of the past, I mean wars, communists and so on. Also there is a huge problem - alcoholism. Unfortunately many Russians drink too much. I don't drink alcohol at all, maybe because of that I can see how bad drunk people can behave themselves. There is a category of people who does not understand words, I mean you can speak with them on their native language but until you kick their ass they will not hear you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHANGOVER Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 ^^ I have the same problem. Don't drink at all - spill all of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osiboy Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 I am originally from BKK. Have moved to live in Pattaya somewhat 10 years ago. So Pattaya is now my home. Pattaya needs tourists. We had a lot of Russians early this year. Now more Indians. I am Thai and I do respect different cultures. Talking about politenes, most nationality have good and bad people. Personally, I find Russians stick to their own group. They have different manners as they were brought up that way. They come to Pattaya to enjoy. I see them shop a lot more than other nationalities who just come here for sex. Ones can be noisy and disrespectful. No matter they are Russian, English, German or etc... They do things that they would not dare to do in their own countries. chaiyapruke; sorry but i have to dissagree with most of your comments, yes, pattaya needs tourists of course, but by flooding the place with indians,arabs and russians it will have the opposite affect in the long run, the tourists that spend the most {ie scandanavians,germans,brits} are already leaving for other destinations, myself included, lets hope we can keep rayong a secret for as long as possible.....politeness , yes, there are good and bad every where sure,. but you have to look at it in a % way,...and most russians are very rude,..., streets ahead of any others i can think of , the indians, although they are number one in the ''cheap charlie '' contest are a least very polite . to address your last comment that "they do things that they would not dare do in their own countries"....... are you refering to the brits, germans and scandanavians too ??? ..because i can assure you most are more careful when in thailand , myself included , as we all know of thailands "limited" so called freedom and the injustice that will served up from the bib,.... a caution for smoking a joint in western europe, 100,000b+ in thailand and maybe a spell in the monkey house too,...unless your thai of course ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurgenG Posted June 11, 2011 Share Posted June 11, 2011 Russians are no better and no worse than other tourists. WASP supremacy is a thing of the past. We are now living in a multicultural world. As far as tourism is concerned, Chinese, Russian or Indian are not worse than the white trashes that populated some parts of Thailand. If you don't understand that, maybe it's time to move somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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