Wonderboy Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I do believe that many Russians coming to Pattaya would be thrilled to communicate with westerners and learn something from them - they just don't know how. As result they behave like they don't care. This is really weird but many Russians get lost even at the airport. They see foreign language signs they don't know how to read and start to panic. Then they become aggressive. Add to this that Russian tour agencies are trying to force them to buy everything through those agencies - so they feed customers pure nonsense like "all Thais are crooks - don't even think about buying anything from them directly or you will be conned". This cultivates paranoia resulting in angry behavior over 10 baht. Not that 10 baht are so important – they just don’t want to feel like they were conned. Thanks for the update. Always good to hear from "the other side". Understanding is key to everything. The Russians I have met that speaks good English has been nice people indeed. WB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LindsayBKK Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Yes I somewhat agree It starts at Suvaranbhumi Immigration. 5 Russian's cut in front of me. I think you can give good/bad for many nationalities so it's a thin line. I am surprised Tour Operators are allowed to make such statements. But if you are talking airlines I know I will never fly Jet , Air India, Kingfisher etc. (gas mask required) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JurgenG Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Now since Russian influx to Pattaya is becoming annoying to many western expats, let me (being Russian) to speculate a bit to help you to deal with it better. It all starts with not knowing English language. I don't know why Russian schools are doing such a poor job teaching English - but this is the fact - most Russian can't get any information except the bull the Russian media feeds them. Not that I'm saying that western media is better ;-) - but unfortunately most Russians can't even talk to people to have any other point of view. I do believe that many Russians coming to Pattaya would be thrilled to communicate with westerners and learn something from them - they just don't know how. As result they behave like they don't care. This is really weird but many Russians get lost even at the airport. They see foreign language signs they don't know how to read and start to panic. Then they become aggressive. Add to this that Russian tour agencies are trying to force them to buy everything through those agencies - so they feed customers pure nonsense like "all Thais are crooks - don't even think about buying anything from them directly or you will be conned". This cultivates paranoia resulting in angry behavior over 10 baht. Not that 10 baht are so important – they just don’t want to feel like they were conned. So my advice – just be friendly to them ;-) Most of them don’t really want to be bad. Of course there are some bad types it is better to avoid (in Russian we call them bydlo ;-) but as it is rightfully mentioned you will see them in most nations. I can totally relate to that. The first time I travelled to China, I couldn't read any sign, couldn't communicate with people. I quickly became paranoid and agressive. I had the feeling that everybody who was trying to help was actually trying to cheat me. Just as you said, I also argued about ridiculous amount of money, made a major drama for less than 50 cents ... I've also to add that I had the opportunities to watch group of German, French, American, Chineses ... travelling in a foreign country. They all fit the OP's description of Russians Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baboon Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Now since Russian influx to Pattaya is becoming annoying to many western expats, let me (being Russian) to speculate a bit to help you to deal with it better. It all starts with not knowing English language. I don't know why Russian schools are doing such a poor job teaching English - but this is the fact - most Russian can't get any information except the bull the Russian media feeds them. Not that I'm saying that western media is better ;-) - but unfortunately most Russians can't even talk to people to have any other point of view. I do believe that many Russians coming to Pattaya would be thrilled to communicate with westerners and learn something from them - they just don't know how. As result they behave like they don't care. This is really weird but many Russians get lost even at the airport. They see foreign language signs they don't know how to read and start to panic. Then they become aggressive. Add to this that Russian tour agencies are trying to force them to buy everything through those agencies - so they feed customers pure nonsense like "all Thais are crooks - don't even think about buying anything from them directly or you will be conned". This cultivates paranoia resulting in angry behavior over 10 baht. Not that 10 baht are so important – they just don’t want to feel like they were conned. So my advice – just be friendly to them ;-) Most of them don’t really want to be bad. Of course there are some bad types it is better to avoid (in Russian we call them bydlo ;-) but as it is rightfully mentioned you will see them in most nations. Very good post. I have always found Russians to be warm hearted and hospitible people if you make an effort to get to know them. It also helps that I find Russia a fascinating country. I have spent a few of the most enchanting summers evenings in my life hanging out on Manezh Square in central Moscow,talking to the youngsters. The Russians will always be alright in my book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osiboy Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 (edited) You would think the Scandinavians would be more tolerant and accepting of different race and culture? Why single out a certain nationality (race)? i dont think the scandinavians would be more tolerent whatsoever,........ i have many swedish friends and they are very rascist , dont/wont even look at a thai girl,. come here for the cheap beer and escape the scandie winters thats it !,......they have a history with russia too, had a war about 1780 ish i think , plus the finland / russia thing does'nt help matters , the fins HATE them big time Edited June 12, 2011 by osiboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osiboy Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 IMO, the last thing Thailand needs is to court Russian tourists. I was privately dismayed when I read recently that the Russians were the largest nationality of tourists from a non-asian country. Let me admit, *I'm very biased. I don't like Russian tourists*, but, 1) I've seen what Russian tourism did to some areas of the Red Sea, and 2) I care about Thailand, its culture, and its people The article is dead-on : other tourists/nationalities do not like Russian tourists. For example, when hotels in the Red Sea had too many Russians, the word spread, and soon the only tourists the hotel could book were Russian. The Germans, Swedes, and other tourists did not want to put up with Russians, period. Now, ... not limited to the topic of tourists' nationalities, ... Tourism is important to the Thai economy - and Thailand has natural beauty, a beautiful culture, and a long, interesting history to offer to tourists. It would be a shame if Thailand did not nurture and take care of these aspects of its tourism attractions. I believe that when tourists come to a country to discover its culture and natural beauty, then they come with an appreciation of - and a respect - for that culture and country. Such tourists tend to defy their own national stereo-types. well said sir,............agreed ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osiboy Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I happen to be a Russian and I find this conversation strange to say the least. I run a business in Thailand, quite obviously, I get my living from Russian tourists. I work legally and I pay all the taxes. Before I moved to where i am now, i used to live on Koh Lanta. Many would agree, that Lanta is mostly scandinavian island (speaking of scandinavian tour operators) and I can tell that some of the tourists on Lanta are as noisy and annoying as maybe some Russians in Pattaya. But that's the way they are and I am not blaming anybody for the way they like to spend their holiday. In the end of a day, everyone has the right to spend their holiday where they want to and the way they like to and if some tour operators are annoyed by other nationalities, well, maybe they can look for opportunities to provide better services for their customers rather than whining in media. Now the only thing I wonder is why some users so absolutely sure that all russians in Pattaya are 'Mafia'? Have they ever met any real russian mafia or is it just soviet stereotype? It's been more than 20 years since USSR and things has changed slightly, so maybe you guys should go out and get some education instead of sitting on the webforums posting stuff that you have no idea about ? mmmmmmmmm, maybe its something to do with the occasional shoot ups between russians and thais around walking street area,or maybe the odd kidnapping and murder of russian businessmen in thailand by other russians you think ?,.........sure stereotyping is said to be a bad thing,......... but im sure this was'nt a dream ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PingManDan Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 They should have concern, whenever I visit Pattaya to play golf, at all the shopping centers, there are mostly 80% Russians, they are loud, belligerent, push their way into lines, they act like there is no one else but themselves, as far as I am concerned, the Russian Mafia, has taken control of places like Pattaya, spanning these ill mannered, pushy tourists to do as they like, as far as I am concerned they can go back home, no need for them here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lannarebirth Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 I've never met any Russians in Thailand but have everywhere else in this world. I like'em. Passionate, literate, fun loving (if sometimes boistrous) people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osiboy Posted June 12, 2011 Share Posted June 12, 2011 Well he may have tagged the wrong city, but Russians have been rated the #1 worst tourist in the world. http://www.tourisman...e_badly_abroad_ Thanks for this link, very interesting. Truly highlights the "nouveaux riches" behavior that most of the Russians exhibit abroad. How ignorant. Have you ever been to Monaco? I have a lot of good non "nouveaux riche" friends there. I think Brits who travel now are the worst types of tourists. another frog with a " chip on their shoulder",........ why dont you give your stereotype opinions on a french speaking forum ?,........... i'll tell you why ,.. you cant find a good one !! "lest we forget" if the brits did'nt stand bye you 70 years ago you would be speaking german or russian yourself now ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thairamsfan Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham.I must add this guy sounds a little crazy ( read a lot ) to suggest Mexico will be a rival to Thiland ref tourism, nobody dare go to Mexico because of the drug murders. I have Mexican relatives living in LA who are too afraid to cross the border to visit their own family. does this guy work for TOT //??????? Pattaya is anything you want it to be if you look around. Obvious what you wet there looking for !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newermonkey Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham.I must add this guy sounds a little crazy ( read a lot ) to suggest Mexico will be a rival to Thiland ref tourism, nobody dare go to Mexico because of the drug murders. I have Mexican relatives living in LA who are too afraid to cross the border to visit their own family. does this guy work for TOT //??????? I would suggest to you, for your very first visit to Pattaya you should avoid the red light areas and get out to some of the lovely beaches such as the one at Baan Amphur, where you will find lots of family's enjoying the peaceful beach. or visit some of the most interesting attractions in the world (too numerous to mention here) or enjoy really good dinning out) But perhaps you are attracted to the bar scene then down town in the evening will be for you! Note: There is for shure too many Russians in Thailand already and they are upsetting other nationalities but what do they expect from a bunch of nuvo rich farmers? And according to Lord Taksin all the poor up-county people in Thailand will be rich after he is made President then every sacred up-market exclusive place will go to the dogs.:jap: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softgeorge Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham I totally agree with you, that's why I never went to Pattaya... not that I don't like sex but, for what I heard about the place I'm rather sure that it's not the kind of tourist site that I would love to stay in. I have been living in Pattaya for 3 months now...and I LOVE the place...the best and most funny city in the world!!!! With so many cool and friendly people... and the most sexy and beautiful girls in ASIA... The women in Chiangmai leave the rest of Thailand behind. Definately the best you can ever see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softgeorge Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham I totally agree with you, that's why I never went to Pattaya... not that I don't like sex but, for what I heard about the place I'm rather sure that it's not the kind of tourist site that I would love to stay in. Yes, please stay away for Pattaya. It's not a very good place. Tell all your friends to stay away too please. Yes it has that world wide reputation that attracts a certain type of male tourist seeking a certain type of holiday. You would have to agree pattaya has very little to do with Thailand. It is like disneyland catering for older children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAffer Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I went to Kho Larn with Thai friends a while ago. While we were there I noticed a lot of Russians, and boy were they annoying. I had to go to great lengths to tell the Thai people that generally Russians are very different to most other 'farang' nationalities. Yes, the Brits can be pretty bad, let's face it. Americans can be silly and loud... or French can be arrogant-- every nation has its bad apples. The thing is, it is very difficult for the casual observer to find the 'good apples' among the Russians present here. And my concern is that Thais just regard us all as 'farang', so the Russian misbehaviour influences what normal Thais think of us. To all the nationalities who travel abroad and don't mix with others (e.g. Chinese and Russians)... I have to wonder why you would travel at all if not to meet diverse people. Maybe it would be easier to understand the Russians if they were more approachable, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zhaffsky Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 I have to wonder why you would travel at all if not to meet diverse people. Obviously most Russians are after the sea and sun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAffer Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) I have to wonder why you would travel at all if not to meet diverse people. Obviously most Russians are after the sea and sun. As are the Swedes, Italians, Dutch... and so on. Most people come for sun and sea (and night time entertainment). The point for me is; when I travel in Thailand I often make new friends, and meet the most interesting and diverse people, but never the Russians- they are apparently not open to meeting new people. I think it is very sad indeed. Edited June 13, 2011 by SAffer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keith7777 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham.I must add this guy sounds a little crazy ( read a lot ) to suggest Mexico will be a rival to Thiland ref tourism, nobody dare go to Mexico because of the drug murders. I have Mexican relatives living in LA who are too afraid to cross the border to visit their own family. does this guy work for TOT //??????? My response to this post and all the other Pattaya slammers did not make it onto this board, to bad, as it was right on. All you sad dudes should get yourselfs another past-time and stay away from Pattaya, stop talking about Pattaya and go back to the hole you dug yourselfs out off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobrussell Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 stereotyping is a terrible thing. ........specially when it's accurate. A short lesson at the airports in Russia would help. Teach them to smile and say thank you would improve diplomatic relations no end. The same can be said for a number of other nationalities! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bf2002 Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 What a crock, European tourists do not go to Pattaya to learn about the Thai culture they go for sex, if they arrive totally unaware that Pattaya is the biggest brothel in the world they pretty soon find out and have a disappointing holiday. I must add I admire the large expensive hotel chains that are moving in, but being a cynic I suspect they have their eye on the rich middle East guys rather than mum, dad, granny and the three kids from Birmingham.I must add this guy sounds a little crazy ( read a lot ) to suggest Mexico will be a rival to Thiland ref tourism, nobody dare go to Mexico because of the drug murders. I have Mexican relatives living in LA who are too afraid to cross the border to visit their own family. does this guy work for TOT //??????? You have got to be drunk! Look at Jomtien sometimens and note how the russians ARE with their fat wives and kids EVERYWHERE. They are not going to the sex scene you love so much or perhaps even I And look at the couples that just walk and watch the walking street hookers and their punters with curiousity....sorry but many Russians DO come to Thailand for the beaches, the weather, etc.....know it's hard for a hardcore punter to sort that one out. Mexico has tons of high end resort areas.....pattaya does not even stack up....you would have to compare this place to the drug infested low end joints...... Russians ARE loud....I deal with them in business globally.....Scandinavians DO comes here as couples, and as surprising as it is to a punter, some actually come just for the CHEAP GOLF, and the women are an afterthought....EVER SPENT ANYTIME at a Scandinavian hotel/restaurant? Many don't even bother to walk an inch across to the closest strip joint.....food, their own kind, company, their own kind, and Thai whores last.....grow up. If you spent some time with the other nationalities, you might not be so ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elektrified Posted June 13, 2011 Share Posted June 13, 2011 Well he may have tagged the wrong city, but Russians have been rated the #1 worst tourist in the world. http://www.tourisman...e_badly_abroad_ ...most of the females are illegally here to sell their bodies to rich Thai men. Uhhh I don't think so. They are here to sell to the rich Arabs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selftaopath Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 Well he may have tagged the wrong city, but Russians have been rated the #1 worst tourist in the world. http://www.tourisman...e_badly_abroad_ Thanks for this link, very interesting. Truly highlights the "nouveaux riches" behavior that most of the Russians exhibit abroad. I totally agree with the article. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selftaopath Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 There are already in Pattaya some places exclusively made for Scandinavian , so I propose they stick to it , if they cannot accept that other people have different way of being on holidays ,they should stay home. Russians can be noisy but they pay like any body else , dont forget that Russian only travel not long ago and they have to learn many things. Do you want to lock your tourists in some "ghettos" to have peace ? Ridiculous ..... I been in many hotels full of Russian tourists , they are not more noisy than some drunk English or Germans. And without those Russians , many hotels would have already closed in Thailand. I dont like Chinese tourists , they have no manners at all , shall I ask the hotels to change their policy ? I've been living in Patts for over 4 of the past 6 years. I've seen first hand the transition it's taken between having a handful of Russians here and not being able to swing a cat without hitting 10 of them. In that time, I've also had a sharp rise in the number of issues I've had with non Thais in Thailand and it's been due to annoying, rude Russians. For whatever reason, the majority of them simply seem to not care about others. They have this unfounded sense of superiority and are oblivious to others. Sometimes this works out as they simply ignore anyone that is not Russian that they don't HAVE to interact with. But the rest of the time, they simply act as if they're entitled to do as they wish. I've stayed in hotels with a large number of Russians, Indians, Arabs and Chinese and I can say, completely based off experience and not prejudice that the Russians and Arabs were the worst. In terms of being loud and inconsiderate of others, they win hands down. Who cares if they spend some money? I guarantee I've spent more money than many dozens of average Russian tourists and I did it without being an asshol_e to others. They don't make up the even a quarter of the total tourism market so if thy're annoying the other 75%+ then it's a problem. Russians may spend money on hotel rooms but that's about it. They don't spend money in small/medium locally owned business unless it's selling Russian food or one of the few nightlife spots that cater to them. They are quite stingy, don't tip and don't spread their money around. So if the few hotels, restaurants and nightlife venues that cater to them went out of business, no one would notice except that Patts was a nicer place of all sudden. This town does not need them to survive at all. It did just fine 6-7 years ago when the Russian market was a tiny fraction of total tourism and it was doing much better without their wanna-be mafia crime groups. As for the Chinese, it's completely different. I've never seen Chinese tourists mingling with others. They go to hotels that exclusively cater to the Asian tour operators, stick together in tight packs with tour guides and that's about it. Unless you purposely sought out a hotel or restaurant that the tour operates bring them to, you would never see them. Well, except for when they are being bussed in and out of town. And why should I have to accept other people being rude and inconsiderate or stay home? Why should the status quo be to just assume that when I go somewhere on holiday that I will have to deal with low class, annoying people? Sorry but it's other way around... If you can't act like a decent, civilized person and have some respect for others, then YOU stay home. Thank you for your post. Bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selftaopath Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 "I totally agree with you, that's why I never went to Pattaya... not that I don't like sex but, for what I heard about the place I'm rather sure that it's not the kind of tourist site that I would love to stay in." * I always get a kick out of stupid comments like this! Usually you read "I have never been there" or "I read this in so and so" or "my friend told me" that Pattaya is no good, etc. Maybe you ought to visit first before you condemn something you have never seen first hand! If you ever visit you won't be out any money, it is easy to get to Pattaya for peanuts on a bus. Since the hotels and restaurants are cheaper you may even save money on your little expedition into the jungles of Darkest Pattaya! (And don't worry - nothing you see or experience will scar you for life and there will not be any Scarlet Letter painted on your back!) Do you think they made all of those new huge modern malls just for sex tourists? Visit one in the evening - they are full of women tourists shopping, female tourists alone or in small groups, family groups, etc. Many tourists visit Pattaya just for a cheap holiday, a place to relax and perhaps take tours and shop. Many of these tourists are couples and family groups returning again and again. There are many tourists that visit Pattaya often and rarely ever even go to any bars. There are retirees living in Pattaya who never go to bars. Hotels are cheaper in Pattaya, transportation is cheap at only 10 baht, supermarkets are clean and modern, decent medical and dental facilities and the life is easy going. No one is forced to go into a bar against his or her will! How about swimming? Is the water safe/clean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imkah Posted June 14, 2011 Share Posted June 14, 2011 When living in Bangkok my wife and I went for weekends to Pattaya. Not for sex, but for swimming in the pool, relaxing on the beach eating sea-food etc. As did most of the other families staying at the hotels at the North end of the beach. Nice quiet place. Highly recommended if you don't want to spend the whole weekend travelling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sb1983 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I spoke with some guy from Great Britain while I live in Pattaya and some woman in massage saloon they said me that I was first Russian they meet who can speak English Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
selftaopath Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I do believe that many Russians coming to Pattaya would be thrilled to communicate with westerners and learn something from them - they just don't know how. As result they behave like they don't care. This is really weird but many Russians get lost even at the airport. They see foreign language signs they don't know how to read and start to panic. Then they become aggressive. Add to this that Russian tour agencies are trying to force them to buy everything through those agencies - so they feed customers pure nonsense like "all Thais are crooks - don't even think about buying anything from them directly or you will be conned". This cultivates paranoia resulting in angry behavior over 10 baht. Not that 10 baht are so important – they just don't want to feel like they were conned. People who infringe on other people’s rights are displayingbehavior that is unacceptable, offensive, and feels threatening – not tomention confusing. Aggression is aggression; can be physical aggression or verbalaggression. Typically those who display such appalling behavior do so because theyhave deep rooted fear. Yes fear is atthe core of most offenses mentioned. I too have had unpleasant contacts with a groups of Russians i.e. 3 couples who looked a/b age35-45 yrs. It was so inconsiderate/rude/aggressive, and totally obnoxious thatmy Thai wife also felt as I did and hope to never be in the general vicinity asthese types ever again. I can appreciate the argument there are “all types” fromevery country. However if the average/norm is evident then it is reasonable tosuggest the majority is ........ As an example most individuals in USA can notspeak any language other than English. So to call us uni lingual is(unfortunately) the truth and factual. Regarding verbal/written rudeness, I’d like to “go on record”that TV has many members who display very rude/aggressive posts. I wonder ifthese posters are hiding behind the anonymity that TV allows? I doubt many who “mouthoff” frequently would do so if standing face to face with someone. At least if these Russians are “in your face”literally they are taking the chance that someone might use more aggression tolessen theirs. Hence the understanding thataggression begets aggression. Those who condone such unacceptable behavior because thereis some monetary rewards attached are no different than many of the powerful establishments(yes in Thailand) that accept money for various unsociable acts of violencethat would normally warrant incarceration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauljones Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I'd rather deal with Russians than the English hooligan types. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
webfact Posted October 17, 2011 Author Share Posted October 17, 2011 The time has come to close this topic //CLOSED// Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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