My Experience Buying/Shopping For A New Car

[wandrinstar]

As Murphy would say. It all depends on where your starting from.

[hearditallbefore]

<br />

<br />One thing i can tell you is the isuzu service on sukumvit (north pattaya) is very good in my experience.  Also if you plan on traveling out of the city stick with toyota or isuzu as the other dealers seem to be far and few between.......it mights be worth a trip to bkk to go shopping.  My guess is pattaya has a ridiculous number if tire kickers........<br />

<br /><br />Yes I do agree, service was better. Girl actually spoke nice and offered to sit down. However even after being there for almost 4 hours I was not even offered some water.<br /><br />Also after I advised her that unless she waives the plate fees I will be walking- the attitude of niceness changed.<br /><br />Instead of trying to negotiate or try to offer something she got angry and unpleasant , but do keep in mind I was ordering 2 cars, their top model. The only discount I was insisting on was the plates which is less than 1% off the total price.<br /><br />In some weird kind of way I am pleased to hear that it's not only me and others had the same treatment <img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

What's al the crap about "test drive, test drive, test drive" what, are you twelve years old and never driven a truck? And all the crap about salespeople, jeeeeez, all the information you need is on the internet and can be googled BEFORE you go to the dealership. You sound like a glorified tire kicker they can smell from 1 hundred yards away that just wants people to bow in your presence because you are going to spend money. Grow up! Buy the car/truck that you want and go home and enjoy it. Who gives a crap about the sales people anyway, if you know what you want, buy it! If you don't, google it! And just as you said about the plate fees you wanted waived, if it was so cheap, why did it bother you? Nope, you just wanted to try to make someone feel like shit, but guess what, the salespeople don't give a shit about YOU! They didn't lose a sell, YOU LOST WHAT YOU WANTED!. There are plenty more that actually WANT TO buy a car where you came from. What a whiner! Sorry if I sound gruff, just people that whine and pout like children piss me off sometimes. Some of us DON'T get the same treatment as you, we are treated very well.

[kuffki]

What's al the crap about "test drive, test drive, test drive" what, are you twelve years old and never driven a truck? And all the crap about salespeople, jeeeeez, all the information you need is on the internet and can be googled BEFORE you go to the dealership. You sound like a glorified tire kicker they can smell from 1 hundred yards away that just wants people to bow in your presence because you are going to spend money. Grow up! Buy the car/truck that you want and go home and enjoy it. Who gives a crap about the sales people anyway, if you know what you want, buy it! If you don't, google it! And just as you said about the plate fees you wanted waived, if it was so cheap, why did it bother you? Nope, you just wanted to try to make someone feel like shit, but guess what, the salespeople don't give a shit about YOU! They didn't lose a sell, YOU LOST WHAT YOU WANTED!. There are plenty more that actually WANT TO buy a car where you came from. What a whiner! Sorry if I sound gruff, just people that whine and pout like children piss me off sometimes. Some of us DON'T get the same treatment as you, we are treated very well.

No you do not sound like a gruff at all, you sound more like someone who never bought a new car or even a decent car.

Someone with hardly any self respect or ability to comprehend basics.

But that is also ok, as they say horses for causes

"They did not lose a sale" So did they make one?

"YOU LOST WHAT YOU WANTED"No, just go to another dealer who is happy to provide some service and get paid

Edited July 10, 2011 by kuffki

[David006]

<br />

<br />One thing i can tell you is the isuzu service on sukumvit (north pattaya) is very good in my experience.  Also if you plan on traveling out of the city stick with toyota or isuzu as the other dealers seem to be far and few between.......it mights be worth a trip to bkk to go shopping.  My guess is pattaya has a ridiculous number if tire kickers........<br />

<br /><br />Yes I do agree, service was better. Girl actually spoke nice and offered to sit down. However even after being there for almost 4 hours I was not even offered some water.<br /><br />Also after I advised her that unless she waives the plate fees I will be walking- the attitude of niceness changed.<br /><br />Instead of trying to negotiate or try to offer something she got angry and unpleasant , but do keep in mind I was ordering 2 cars, their top model. The only discount I was insisting on was the plates which is less than 1% off the total price.<br /><br />In some weird kind of way I am pleased to hear that it's not only me and others had the same treatment <img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

What's al the crap about "test drive, test drive, test drive" what, are you twelve years old and never driven a truck? And all the crap about salespeople, jeeeeez, all the information you need is on the internet and can be googled BEFORE you go to the dealership. You sound like a glorified tire kicker they can smell from 1 hundred yards away that just wants people to bow in your presence because you are going to spend money. Grow up! Buy the car/truck that you want and go home and enjoy it. Who gives a crap about the sales people anyway, if you know what you want, buy it! If you don't, google it! And just as you said about the plate fees you wanted waived, if it was so cheap, why did it bother you? Nope, you just wanted to try to make someone feel like shit, but guess what, the salespeople don't give a shit about YOU! They didn't lose a sell, YOU LOST WHAT YOU WANTED!. There are plenty more that actually WANT TO buy a car where you came from. What a whiner! Sorry if I sound gruff, just people that whine and pout like children piss me off sometimes. Some of us DON'T get the same treatment as you, we are treated very well.

wooow..daddy..cornflakes a bit urine flavoured this am eh.??.

. if one is spending $30k + on a vehicle it would be nice for someone to help you do it and make you happy.. coffee smile ...maybe even a bit of product knowledge..??

.bet you'd buy fish from the back of a truck in the desert too...I' ll send you a picture...?? Or maybe a mail order wife?? they 'll all see you a hundred metres away too....life is a long narrow street..lol

[thaicbr]

because in thailand, people who cant afford a car just buy it and leave it in front of their house.. that makes a lot of sales. In most countries people buy a car they can afford to run, so they'll buy used cars. Here they'll buy a brand new one, drive 10kph untill the free gas tank is empty, then its a showpiece. Why do you think there's so many used car tents all over the country? People keep buying cars they dont use.. on 12car you can find thousands of cars with less than 500km.

really............................. thousands !!!!!!

I call bullshit on that one.

No, tend to agree, many buy for the status, my neighbours for one.

I get the buy for status.. I just say bullshit on the thousands with less than 500km on 12 car. 5000km maybe

And the reason that there are so many in the tents is that Thais dont buy very many 2nd hand things....full stop. its that status thing again

" sigh, brains are low in here tonight. I clearly gave the website."

yep. mainly yours. as usual. As i note that most of the ads on 12car do not even include mileage.

Edited July 10, 2011 by thaicbr

[hearditallbefore]

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />One thing i can tell you is the isuzu service on sukumvit (north pattaya) is very good in my experience.  Also if you plan on traveling out of the city stick with toyota or isuzu as the other dealers seem to be far and few between.......it mights be worth a trip to bkk to go shopping.  My guess is pattaya has a ridiculous number if tire kickers........<br />

<br /><br />Yes I do agree, service was better. Girl actually spoke nice and offered to sit down. However even after being there for almost 4 hours I was not even offered some water.<br /><br />Also after I advised her that unless she waives the plate fees I will be walking- the attitude of niceness changed.<br /><br />Instead of trying to negotiate or try to offer something she got angry and unpleasant , but do keep in mind I was ordering 2 cars, their top model. The only discount I was insisting on was the plates which is less than 1% off the total price.<br /><br />In some weird kind of way I am pleased to hear that it's not only me and others had the same treatment <img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='<img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' />' /><br />

<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />What's al the crap about "test drive, test drive, test drive" what, are you twelve years old and never driven a truck? And all the crap about salespeople, jeeeeez, all the information you need is on the internet and can be googled BEFORE you go to the dealership. You sound like a glorified tire kicker they can smell from 1 hundred yards away that just wants people to bow in your presence because you are going to spend money. Grow up! Buy the car/truck that you want and go home and enjoy it. Who gives a crap about the sales people anyway, if you know what you want, buy it! If you don't, google it! And just as you said about the plate fees you wanted waived, if it was so cheap, why did it bother you? Nope, you just wanted to try to make someone feel like shit, but guess what, the salespeople don't give a shit about YOU! They didn't lose a sell, YOU LOST WHAT YOU WANTED!. There are plenty more that actually WANT TO buy a car where you came from. What a whiner! Sorry if I sound gruff, just people that whine and pout like children piss me off sometimes. Some of us DON'T get the same treatment as you, we are treated very well.<br />

<br /><br /><br />wooow..daddy..cornflakes a bit urine flavoured this am eh.??.<br />. if one is spending $30k + on a vehicle it would be nice for someone to help you do it and make you happy.. coffee smile ...maybe even a bit of product knowledge..??<br />.bet you'd  buy fish from the back of a truck in the desert too...I' ll send you a picture...?? Or maybe a mail order wife?? they 'll all see <i>you </i>a hundred metres away too....life is a long narrow street..lol  <img src='http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='' /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

I have a 2011 Toyota Vigo from the Toyota dealer on the 4th floor of Central Rama 3 in Bangkok. Bought it from Khun Mam. Super lady. I want some fish and a mail order wife, can you send pics. he he. Nah, I just loathe whiners and tire kickers

[transam]

because in thailand, people who cant afford a car just buy it and leave it in front of their house.. that makes a lot of sales. In most countries people buy a car they can afford to run, so they'll buy used cars. Here they'll buy a brand new one, drive 10kph untill the free gas tank is empty, then its a showpiece. Why do you think there's so many used car tents all over the country? People keep buying cars they dont use.. on 12car you can find thousands of cars with less than 500km.

really............................. thousands !!!!!!

I call bullshit on that one.

No, tend to agree, many buy for the status, my neighbours for one.

I get the buy for status.. I just say bullshit on the thousands with less than 500km on 12 car. 5000km maybe

And the reason that there are so many in the tents is that Thais dont buy very many 2nd hand things....full stop. its that status thing again

" sigh, brains are low in here tonight. I clearly gave the website."

yep. mainly yours. as usual. As i note that most of the ads on 12car do not even include mileage.

Me, low brains , well l know but keep it to yourself eh.

[thaicbr]

Me, low brains , well l know but keep it to yourself eh.

No not you.. well maybe. It was seriouseats that said that. not me.. so your gonna have to ask him

[topt]

I would mention that there are 2 Toyota and Mitsu dealers on Sukhumvit (between Nua and Naklua end) and the ones on the north side were streets ahead of the ones on the south -

Doesn't Sukhumvit basically run north to south...so how can anything be on the "north" or "south" side of it (at least until it gets up towards the top of the Gulf and vears to the left)? Maybe you could clarify by stating the good ones are on the side of Bangkok-Pattaya Hospital or the opposite side or in the alternative are on the side of one driving north or driving south

Apologies for my geographical faux pax - I should have course have said on the East side - IE dark side of Suk. Or to be crystal the opposite side of the road to Bankok Pattaya Hospital.

[kkerry]

Every time there's a motor show on there are always newspaper reports about how many thousand new cars have been sold at the show. If there are really that many being sold then there can't be many people test driving them first.

If I couldn't test drive a car then I'd be buying elsewhere. I've had this argument before with my wife who doesn't get why anyone would need to do a test drive... just like i can never understand why anyone would not... somewhere like Australia it's never an issue, walk in to a dealer and after a brief chat and providing a copy of your licence you are off for a test drive, usually on your own.

Maybe Thai dealers are worried about this happening...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/07/06/3262252.htm

[kuffki]

Every time there's a motor show on there are always newspaper reports about how many thousand new cars have been sold at the show. If there are really that many being sold then there can't be many people test driving them first.

If I couldn't test drive a car then I'd be buying elsewhere. I've had this argument before with my wife who doesn't get why anyone would need to do a test drive... just like i can never understand why anyone would not... somewhere like Australia it's never an issue, walk in to a dealer and after a brief chat and providing a copy of your licence you are off for a test drive, usually on your own.

Maybe Thai dealers are worried about this happening...

http://www.abc.net.a.../06/3262252.htm

Has anyone noticed that any new models in Thailand in any make do not really do well or do very slow?!

Most cars sold at the motor shows are the usual same cars. People buying them do not test drive and buy either from having owned one prior or recommendation from a friend. This is why the same models in the same makes always have the same kind of sales figures.

People do not get to test drive other makes such as Nissan or Ford or Mazda, so the original 3- Toyota, Isuzu and Honda always in top 3.

Because people do not get to test drive, new models are very slow in sales. Take Nissan March for example, really not so many on the road, yet it is a better, more economical and nicer car to drive than Yaris or Jazz. I just bought one for my mother and she has had all 3 in the past, yet it is not really doing well locally.

Even the new Honda Brio, released not so long ago, i have not seen even 1 yet on the road and i would attribute it to inability to test drive it. Price is good, drive is nice, very economical, very nicely designed and is a Honda, but its a new Honda, so people keep buying Jazz.

Another perfect example is Toyota Prius hybrid, i do not think there is a queque waiting to buy one, while Camry Hybrid has a waiting list. Go figure

Edited July 10, 2011 by kuffki

[ra1n85]

Your experience would have driven me mad enough to consider my living arrangements. Ridiculous customer service.

[kuffki]

Your experience would have driven me mad enough to consider my living arrangements. Ridiculous customer service.

5-7 years ago i would of been ready to explode but now while frustrating, it is pretty normal.

Just as off topic example. Go to buy all-in-one office jet(print/copy/scan/fax)

Really was unsure on what to get, so asked sales guy what was good, reliable and fast.

Answer was-"i do not know, because i do not use it", At least he was honest

[thaicbr]

kuffki said" Take Nissan March for example, really not so many on the road"

I think it depends where you are. I live on the south west side of Bkk and there are at least 3 Nissan dealers close. There are also LOTS of Nissan Marches on the rd here.

[kuffki]

kuffki said" Take Nissan March for example, really not so many on the road"

I think it depends where you are. I live on the south west side of Bkk and there are at least 3 Nissan dealers close. There are also LOTS of Nissan Marches on the rd here.

I can not speak for your area, in Pattaya there are hardly any and i do mean Nissan March(not the dealers), while same type of a car like Yaris or Jazz is on every corner.

[kkerry]

With Nissan March being a small car perhaps it's mainly selling in Bangkok. I know I keep seeing them everywhere as their jelly bean color range and red plates make them stand out in traffic. There's a thread somewhere about there being a waiting list for the March just like for many Honda and Toyota models so they must be selling a few.

I think we must have got lucky when buying our Ford recently. Helpful salesman, switched on, knew his product, 30 minute test drive of the top model no problem, plenty of coffee and drinks supplied, easily contactable and no pressure. Dealership always had a steady stream of customers. Mainly stocked sedans so I don't know what they would be like to buy a truck from but for buying a car I was happy. I remember another member here who bought the same car I did saying he'd been to different Ford dealers and how the service levels varied.

The comment about tire kickers seemed a little strange to me because if a foreigner is making the effort to walk in to a dealer here then I would think they were more likely to end up buying something, but then it could be about financing and how dealers probably prefer you to finance a car rather than pay cash so as they can get a commission. Maybe foreigners mostly pay cash and anyway, currently Honda, Toyota and Nissan have more customers than they have cars to sell.

[WarpSpeed]

Me, low brains , well l know but keep it to yourself eh.

No not you.. well maybe. It was seriouseats that said that. not me.. so your gonna have to ask him

Tsk tsk tsk tsk T/A, of course not you........

Edited July 10, 2011 by WarpSpeed

[WarpSpeed]

sigh, brains are low in here tonight. I clearly gave the website.

It's all status cars that were shipped off to tent dealers RIGHT after they emptied the free gas tank.. Sometimes they've got a couple hundred baht left by eating mama's for a few weeks and they get to 1.5k km

remember a bunch of funny status stories from a while ago on this forum.. one member had a cheap car, neighbor got a manual fortuner and parked it in the street proudly and it ended by the thai moving his unused status manual fortuner inside his parking and putting a drape over it in shame when the thaivisa member bought a sportivo and used it daily.

what website? in what post?

He wrote "12 car" when it should have been "one2car" so that's the site he was referring to.

[kuffki]

sigh, brains are low in here tonight. I clearly gave the website.

It's all status cars that were shipped off to tent dealers RIGHT after they emptied the free gas tank.. Sometimes they've got a couple hundred baht left by eating mama's for a few weeks and they get to 1.5k km

remember a bunch of funny status stories from a while ago on this forum.. one member had a cheap car, neighbor got a manual fortuner and parked it in the street proudly and it ended by the thai moving his unused status manual fortuner inside his parking and putting a drape over it in shame when the thaivisa member bought a sportivo and used it daily.

what website? in what post?

He wrote "12 car" when it should have been "one2car" so that's the site he was referring to.

Thank you, had no idea what 12 car meant

[transam]

Me, low brains , well l know but keep it to yourself eh.

No not you.. well maybe. It was seriouseats that said that. not me.. so your gonna have to ask him

Tsk tsk tsk tsk T/A, of course not you........

Nice to hear that from you BUT l am afraid it's true.

[David006]

I have a 2011 Toyota Vigo from the Toyota dealer on the 4th floor of Central Rama 3 in Bangkok. Bought it from Khun Mam. Super lady. I want some fish and a mail order wife, can you send pics. he he. Nah, I just loathe whiners and tire kickers

:clap2:

Got a special on this week...FREE: 1 fish wife ( drinks a lot of gasohol and smokes a lot and needs a re- bore, looks like been in accident so in need of some body work)..comes with three whining tyre biters, a clapped out Anglia, a MIL and a heavily mortgaged semi in south London....yes you can take them all for a test drive after closing time...

[wandrinstar]

Not only do you get Tire Kickers, you get Arrogant Oiks,in a Vyron look at me T Shirt.They ask you all the things they are sure you wont know, then tell you in a Loud Voice to impress other Customers in the Showroom.When they have made sure you dont know the Tyre Brand without looking,they inform you of the Valve Clearances. After rubbishing You and The Product, they get in their Truck and leave with a Loud IM OFF to THE VOLVO Showroom.This applies to Ferangs here only .As told to me by the Ford Dealer in Ubon Rat..Not that i imply this Forum has such Bums.

[wandrinstar]

Not only do you get Tire Kickers, you get Arrogant Oiks,in a Vyron look at me T Shirt.They ask you all the things they are sure you wont know, then tell you in a Loud Voice to impress other Customers in the Showroom.When they have made sure you dont know the Tyre Brand without looking,they inform you of the Valve Clearances. After rubbishing You and The Product, they get in their Truck and leave with a Loud IM OFF to THE VOLVO Showroom.This applies to Ferangs here only .As told to me by the Ford Dealer in Ubon Rat..Not that i imply this Forum has such Bums.

[katabeachbum]

Not only do you get Tire Kickers, you get Arrogant Oiks,in a Vyron look at me T Shirt.They ask you all the things they are sure you wont know, then tell you in a Loud Voice to impress other Customers in the Showroom.When they have made sure you dont know the Tyre Brand without looking,they inform you of the Valve Clearances. After rubbishing You and The Product, they get in their Truck and leave with a Loud IM OFF to THE VOLVO Showroom.This applies to Ferangs here only .As told to me by the Ford Dealer in Ubon Rat..Not that i imply this Forum has such Bums.

spot on , and sales staff general impression of farang, test drive and talking and dealing on price, but not buying

reminding me of late 2005, wanted a Fortuna, 3-5 months waiting lists, approached showroom, didnt even look at Fortuna, found senior sales staff, told him 10k baht in his pocket If I could have one in silver with Michelin tyres (hated the Bridgestones) within 3 days. but but you farang you need to look and testdrive, 3 days later we picked it up. Took me 2 days to sell Vigo, everyone happy

[seriouseats]

should of given him fake money for being corrupted? He should be pleased to do it for the sake of service and commissions.

[katabeachbum]

should of given him fake money for being corrupted? He should be pleased to do it for the sake of service and commissions.

with the right contacts in a sales organisation, sales staff can "steal" a car from another customer and explain the other customer his car is delayed. As the cash discount was 10k baht at that time, I basicly paid MSRP, and got what I wanted when I wanted, and we took it for a 2 month holiday-trip

One year later I sold it, but thats another story

[kuffki]

Not only do you get Tire Kickers, you get Arrogant Oiks,in a Vyron look at me T Shirt.They ask you all the things they are sure you wont know, then tell you in a Loud Voice to impress other Customers in the Showroom.When they have made sure you dont know the Tyre Brand without looking,they inform you of the Valve Clearances. After rubbishing You and The Product, they get in their Truck and leave with a Loud IM OFF to THE VOLVO Showroom.This applies to Ferangs here only .As told to me by the Ford Dealer in Ubon Rat..Not that i imply this Forum has such Bums.

spot on , and sales staff general impression of farang, test drive and talking and dealing on price, but not buying

reminding me of late 2005, wanted a Fortuna, 3-5 months waiting lists, approached showroom, didnt even look at Fortuna, found senior sales staff, told him 10k baht in his pocket If I could have one in silver with Michelin tyres (hated the Bridgestones) within 3 days. but but you farang you need to look and testdrive, 3 days later we picked it up. Took me 2 days to sell Vigo, everyone happy

Yes, its unspeakable that someone wants to know the car, get a feel and make choice based on personal preference NOT on a word of someone else. All those 6.5 billion people have no idea, ONLY Thai dealers got it right.

[Richb2004v2]

It's just a different system here. Maybe ordinarily the Thai staff don't need to know anything at all about the cars they are selling. Possibly because Thai customers never ask any questions. It seems it is not Thai to ask questions about anything. Doing so may reveal that they don't know everything and may embarrass those being asked the question. The system works for Thais, and this is Thailand, so why should they change anything for the occasional annoying fereng who shows up going against their tried and tested sales method. This is only a guess. I have no idea if it's right.

[katabeachbum]

Not only do you get Tire Kickers, you get Arrogant Oiks,in a Vyron look at me T Shirt.They ask you all the things they are sure you wont know, then tell you in a Loud Voice to impress other Customers in the Showroom.When they have made sure you dont know the Tyre Brand without looking,they inform you of the Valve Clearances. After rubbishing You and The Product, they get in their Truck and leave with a Loud IM OFF to THE VOLVO Showroom.This applies to Ferangs here only .As told to me by the Ford Dealer in Ubon Rat..Not that i imply this Forum has such Bums.

spot on , and sales staff general impression of farang, test drive and talking and dealing on price, but not buying

reminding me of late 2005, wanted a Fortuna, 3-5 months waiting lists, approached showroom, didnt even look at Fortuna, found senior sales staff, told him 10k baht in his pocket If I could have one in silver with Michelin tyres (hated the Bridgestones) within 3 days. but but you farang you need to look and testdrive, 3 days later we picked it up. Took me 2 days to sell Vigo, everyone happy

Yes, its unspeakable that someone wants to know the car, get a feel and make choice based on personal preference NOT on a word of someone else. All those 6.5 billion people have no idea, ONLY Thai dealers got it right.

an hours test drive does not make anyone know a car.

Reading up on crash safety and running costs and magazines test driving can give you an impression. Ad your own feeling by sitting in it and you have knowledge to make a qualified choise. This is Thailand, the combined car/pickup/suv market is 6-700k units a year, IOW small dealers sell average 100 units a year. Back home each dealer sells 5-600units to survive, more to make money. TH dealers in general can not afford test vehicles, neither can their staff afford to own a car

and if you want to test drive, leave farang pattaya for a couple of days, and go to Thailand, sorry meant Bangkok, where dealers have test vehicles, trained staff, guts and money to order units not sold yet, IOW able to deliver without you waiting 3-6 months

[seriouseats]

I seriously dont know where you've got the info but i never heard of any thais taking a test drive for more than a few mins.. My gf said it makes no sense.. but then again most of her friends are decently educated and wealthy so they might not be dumb enough to ask a dealer for a 3days test drive(who in their right mind would even think thats possible?)

Best reason why test drive might be frowned upon at some places is that the test driver go crazy on the car.. They seem crazy around here and just 5mins ago. I saw a bunch of muslim farangs in a chevrelot captiva test drive driving 120kph and drift breaking at a busy uturn (in the oposite uturn lane fortunately no one was uturning also they went in front of 2 people already waiting to turn) almost crashing into oncoming traffic.. Saw them doing a bunch of other bad maneuver while they were in front of me on a long road..

Most test driving cars i have seen around from mitsu and chevy are all going extremely fast and its usually by people who probably don't own a license.