Monks Teach Maleness To Thai 'Ladyboys'

[rucus7]

This has all the trappings of potentially great comedic Thai film.

[BlueSmurf]

So why do you think (to everyone) that there seems to be a unusual amount of trans gender people in Thailand? Ok I know all some will say not enough! But...have a guess even or give it some thought to why..

here are the reasons that I have been told.

1.Lean bhap..thats copy to be in the gang.

2. Thailand is more open in general towards being gay.

3. Parents would rather see their daughter with another girl as a teenager than with a boy who may get here pregnant.

4. Poisons in the air and food.

5.Born that way.

6. Too much soy milk and tophu in the diet as a teenager which has too many female hormones in..The N.H.S. in the UK warns not to give this to teenage boys!

7.Being taught by elders and piers thats its acceptable to be Bi sexual..

I would probely agree across the board with all this reasons which add up to the reason we seem and do see more cross gender people in Thailand.

So any other reason you all can think of?

As for no.1 I would say that its a fair to say that maybe children who have become a Katoey at a eary age need time to find out if its what they really want so maybe there could be a reason for councilling at a early age? I will get slated for that but as I said some do it to become one of the gang..Told to me and seen by Thais...

Well I would not agree with 4 6 and 7 but I believe the others have merit.

Number 2 I believe to mean Thailand is more open to it as you say. It is because of the open mindedness that they have that it looks like there is a lot more of it here than in Countries less tolerant of it. They do how ever have just as many only they tend to hide it.

Maybe poisons in the air and food make no difference but 6 seems to be a proven fact.Thais seem to know about this ..Wether it makes a difference or not in the long run I do not know but it does seem to have some merit. 7.could come into the group of No. 1 as in Lean Bhap copying in or being influenced by others even to the degree of as I have heard a Thai friend say its the fashion at the moment!

I cannot believe that there is that many closet gays and cross gender people in say the USa or the Uk....In the north there seems to be a disproportionate amount..But some may say not enough!

[ginjag]

Nisa you got me confused by saying gay and lesbian are not the same ??????.............Lesbians are gay ladies. if not what are they ????

I didn't say gay and lesbian were not the same. What I said was. "... the common Thai who only refer to men as being gay. They call women lesbians, not gays "

I like you define both male and females attracted to the same sex as being gay.

Edit: maybe it is different up North, but in Bangkok I learned long ago not to refer to a women as gay because it confused Thais and I received a response on more than one occasion asking how a women can be gay.

You are correct as far as Thais thinking is concerned in the north here or Chiang Rai. Thais are confused as to what to call what. They haven't seemed to have got the universal understanding. As in many things they don't have the out of Thai vision. The katoys/ladyboys in the north tend to get off with anyone in general==older men with money OR the school or college lads/farm lads for free-(fun) but most have had a farrang or has one in tow, and 50% of them are seasonally missing from the farm.The lesbian name here is used as thats all they they know. We read books, newspapers, watch news and here-say to gain knowledge. They do little and rely on the first interpretation they hear to be correct.

[Britannia]

It's a public secret in Thailand that a huge amount of monks are just plane gay, and that becoming (temporaly) a monk is i nfact a way of reassuring or even showing their' feminine' character.Same problem with catholic priests: can we imagine catholic priests ' teaching' other priests to discover their' masculinity'???!!....The core of the problem is t hat any religion is based on sexual repression, and sexual repression can only reinforce' alternative' forms of sexuality.The ones who try to solve the problem are the problem...

The problem is with Thai Buddhism as they dont allow woman to be a monk as enjoined by Lord Buddha.

However a woman monk cannot use makeup.

Most religions developed during times of tribal loyalties or proto-city states needing to keep numbers up, and create a social re-enforcing mechanism, to get members to go and die to protect the central continuity of the city state against it's neighbors, and feed them in and organized manner. If you were made to feel a morally reenforced dictate to procreate, and if needs be send your sons to war to save your city state from destruction or make it larger, then the philosophy worked.

In modern times it is less needed because if anything there is excess population and the state has maintained a way to control protection issues. But the religious overlay doesn't fade away. Buddha of course was not advocating war, but man, in his typical controllishness, used the organizational structures to hold the society together in parallel to the state. When they are no longer needed they are still in place because of habit and cultural stasis. Which is partly why Santi Asoke is against the Thai Sangha, they think it has too many City/State trappings and less pure Buddha in it's methodology.

So not being hetro and strong and manly was one less defender of the relm ready to defend, and breed fresh defenders and agriculturists for the global public good, in the eyes of many thus putting them all at risk. So structures were put in place to keep numbers up and under moral control.

Not serpoosed to be drinking today, how many have you had?

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Yeah right! Because this country has so much in common with Taliban ruled Afghanistan!

Sure it does - the Buddhist conservative elements here, just as the Christian ones back home block efforts to improve sex education and access to reproductive health services by the young and poor, not only causing unnecessarily large numbers of teen pregnancies and kids not properly cared for, but vastly increased AIDS fatalities.

Refusal to publicly acknowledge the huge social problems caused by criminalizing the sex industry when all concerned would be much better off if it were legal and regulated.

Not as extreme, but still remnants of gender inequality under the law, and definite entrenched injustice at the social/community level, many customs and attitudes supporting women as chattel, little support for changing that through education from the top.

Despite women generally being more intelligent, ambitious and diligent than the men here, the better-paying, less-work jobs definitely go to men.

Not as extreme as the Taliban, but still stupid traditionalism maintained as if it were true morality by religion-supported conservativism. . .

[ginjag]

So why do you think (to everyone) that there seems to be a unusual amount of trans gender people in Thailand? Ok I know all some will say not enough! But...have a guess even or give it some thought to why..

here are the reasons that I have been told.

1.Lean bhap..thats copy to be in the gang.

2. Thailand is more open in general towards being gay.

3. Parents would rather see their daughter with another girl as a teenager than with a boy who may get here pregnant.

4. Poisons in the air and food.

5.Born that way.

6. Too much soy milk and tophu in the diet as a teenager which has too many female hormones in..The N.H.S. in the UK warns not to give this to teenage boys!

7.Being taught by elders and piers thats its acceptable to be Bi sexual..

I would probely agree across the board with all this reasons which add up to the reason we seem and do see more cross gender people in Thailand.

So any other reason you all can think of?

As for no.1 I would say that its a fair to say that maybe children who have become a Katoey at a eary age need time to find out if its what they really want so maybe there could be a reason for councilling at a early age? I will get slated for that but as I said some do it to become one of the gang..Told to me and seen by Thais...

Well I would not agree with 4 6 and 7 but I believe the others have merit.

Number 2 I believe to mean Thailand is more open to it as you say. It is because of the open mindedness that they have that it looks like there is a lot more of it here than in Countries less tolerant of it. They do how ever have just as many only they tend to hide it.

Maybe poisons in the air and food make no difference but 6 seems to be a proven fact.Thais seem to know about this ..Wether it makes a difference or not in the long run I do not know but it does seem to have some merit. 7.could come into the group of No. 1 as in Lean Bhap copying in or being influenced by others even to the degree of as I have heard a Thai friend say its the fashion at the moment!

I cannot believe that there is that many closet gays and cross gender people in say the USa or the Uk....In the north there seems to be a disproportionate amount..But some may say not enough!

5. BORN THAT WAY. influenced at times when young and will experiment, but at the end of the day if you dont like jelly you won't eat it, but may try it once. get the drift. 5555555555555 poisons Ha Ha soy milk Ha Ha Ha, so you don't drink soy milk in case you TURN gay YOUR No 2 is the only sensible answer.

All the rest is complete Bullsh#t......amazing poster Ha.

[animatic]

So why do you think (to everyone) that there seems to be a unusual amount of trans gender people in Thailand? Ok I know all some will say not enough! But...have a guess even or give it some thought to why..

here are the reasons that I have been told.

1.Lean bhap..thats copy to be in the gang.

2. Thailand is more open in general towards being gay.

3. Parents would rather see their daughter with another girl as a teenager than with a boy who may get here pregnant.

4. Poisons in the air and food.

5.Born that way.

6. Too much soy milk and tophu in the diet as a teenager which has too many female hormones in..The N.H.S. in the UK warns not to give this to teenage boys!

7.Being taught by elders and piers thats its acceptable to be Bi sexual..

I would probely agree across the board with all this reasons which add up to the reason we seem and do see more cross gender people in Thailand.

So any other reason you all can think of?

As for no.1 I would say that its a fair to say that maybe children who have become a Katoey at a eary age need time to find out if its what they really want so maybe there could be a reason for councilling at a early age? I will get slated for that but as I said some do it to become one of the gang..Told to me and seen by Thais...

I might say that

it is because a tribal genetic predisposition to #5,

explains 1-4 and 6-7. The #2 answer would be a rational response to a great many alternate-sexuals in the society, rather than the other way round. Nature vs Nurture: Born that way and then having accesible role models to emulate in several dozen degrees.

I also think the ladyboys themselves have found their definition: The Third Sex.

More some polymorphous bisexuality, than specifically gay or straight.

Edited July 16, 2011 by animatic

[exbelg]

thailand, the hub for trying to make gay people straight again...and I tought katoy were invented by the monks...they are still men and monks cannot touch women, so they invented katoy to have the plesure that normally a woman would give in a man's body

[RedNIvar]

Thank you TV, for keeping everyone entertained with such a topic. Can't really go out drinking, this is quite entertaining.

[SteeleJoe]

The problem is with Thai Buddhism as they dont allow woman to be a monk as enjoined by Lord Buddha.

However a woman monk cannot use makeup.

Not sure how you got this.

I know two women who went to be monks for a spell.

You just don't see them walking around asking for alms etc.

The Thai Sangha does not allow female monks and no Thai monk is allowed to ordain them. Some women, ordained abroad, have even been prosecuted for "impersonating a monk". This has been an issue for decades. This year was the first time a female monk was ordained in Thailand in modern history. She was ordained by a Sri Lankan female monk (Sri Lanka has allowed that since the late 90s and there are some Thai women who have gone there to be ordained.)

There were previously bhikkhuni in this part of the world but that was centuries ago.

I don't have any numbers for the number of female monks in Thailand but if your women friends went to be monks -- and not nuns -- then they are rather extraordinary

[anterian]

the flipping of one's gender seems to be epidemic in Thailand unlike any other country I have ever heard of. This is not only boys acting like girls, but girls acting and looking much like men. The "problem" will never be "solved" as long as the priority of convenience outweighs the consequence. The over consumption of Phthalates in the food chain from plastic bottles that sit in the sun and putting oily and hot food in plastic bags continues. A well known fact that Phthalates are carcinogenic and cause chromosome damage is well documented is a clear factor in gender disorders. The over use of estrogen mimicking pesticides is also well documented in causing the feminine qualities of a species to take dominance ie. hermaphroditic frogs and fish. In the case of hormones, a small amount has the same effect as a lot but in this country more is always better. More chemicals, more antibiotics, more volume, more MSG, the more "modern" the better. You can't change something that is by telling it it is not, ludicrous.

A good scientific precis of the most probable cause of so many ladyboys in Thailand, and incidentally the Philippines and Brazil. I would add that phthalates are used as plasticisers for PVC, hence the rigid plastic uPVC is not a risk, it is the flexible plastic found in most food wrappings which is the problem. Whilst phthallates will leach even into water, they leach more readily into acidified water such as carbonated drinks, the practice of small shops pouring coke etc into plastic bags, is a common practice in the three countries named.

Meat animals, particularly chickens, are regularly fed oestrogen in order to promote rapid growth, this then enters the food chain.

The end result of all this is that girls mature faster, breast development is precocious, boys become feminised and male sperm count falls.

Where I disagree with the quoted comment is in the incidence and correlation with female to male transition, lesbians are small in numbers compared to layboys, even then the majority are bi-sexual in orientation.

[SteeleJoe]

The problem is with Thai Buddhism as they dont allow woman to be a monk as enjoined by Lord Buddha.

However a woman monk cannot use makeup.

Not sure how you got this.

I know two women who went to be monks for a spell.

You just don't see them walking around asking for alms etc.

They were not monks - they can go to the temple and live like a monk, but they wear white etc and are not regarded as monks as such - nor do they have they same rights and obligations.

THere are some women protesting this as it is not universally so in other Theravada Buddhist countries

Monks / nuns, same ecclesiastical mindset and essential purpose.

Oops. Guess i should read through the thread before commenting, since my first post was redundant -- but I'm too lazy so I'll make another possibly redundancy:

It's not the same at all. The difference is hugely significant to the women who wish to be monks or are already and many who have no desire to be monks but think they shouldn't be forbidden. Some people would argue it's important to Theravada Buddhism as a whole and certainly to Thailand in terms of women's rights and how they are viewed in the society and culture.

[anterian]

the flipping of one's gender seems to be epidemic in Thailand unlike any other country I have ever heard of. This is not only boys acting like girls, but girls acting and looking much like men. The "problem" will never be "solved" as long as the priority of convenience outweighs the consequence. The over consumption of Phthalates in the food chain from plastic bottles that sit in the sun and putting oily and hot food in plastic bags continues. A well known fact that Phthalates are carcinogenic and cause chromosome damage is well documented is a clear factor in gender disorders. The over use of estrogen mimicking pesticides is also well documented in causing the feminine qualities of a species to take dominance ie. hermaphroditic frogs and fish. In the case of hormones, a small amount has the same effect as a lot but in this country more is always better. More chemicals, more antibiotics, more volume, more MSG, the more "modern" the better. You can't change something that is by telling it it is not, ludicrous.

A good scientific precis of the most probable cause of so many ladyboys in Thailand, and incidentally the Philippines and Brazil. I would add that phthalates are used as plasticisers for PVC, hence the rigid plastic uPVC is not a risk, it is the flexible plastic found in most food wrappings which is the problem. Whilst phthallates will leach even into water, they leach more readily into acidified water such as carbonated drinks, the practice of small shops pouring coke etc into plastic bags, is a common practice in the three countries named.

Meat animals, particularly chickens, are regularly fed oestrogen in order to promote rapid growth, this then enters the food chain.

The end result of all this is that girls mature faster, breast development is precocious, boys become feminised and male sperm count falls.

Where I disagree with the quoted comment is in the incidence and correlation with female to male transition, lesbians are small in numbers compared to layboys, even then the majority are bi-sexual in orientation.

[DumFarang]

Yeah right! Because this country has so much in common with Taliban ruled Afghanistan!

Sure it does - the Buddhist conservative elements here, just as the Christian ones back home block efforts to improve sex education and access to reproductive health services by the young and poor, not only causing unnecessarily large numbers of teen pregnancies and kids not properly cared for, but vastly increased AIDS fatalities.

Refusal to publicly acknowledge the huge social problems caused by criminalizing the sex industry when all concerned would be much better off if it were legal and regulated.

Not as extreme, but still remnants of gender inequality under the law, and definite entrenched injustice at the social/community level, many customs and attitudes supporting women as chattel, little support for changing that through education from the top.

Despite women generally being more intelligent, ambitious and diligent than the men here, the better-paying, less-work jobs definitely go to men.

Not as extreme as the Taliban, but still stupid traditionalism maintained as if it were true morality by religion-supported conservativism. . .

Well if you go around always splitting hairs like this to define your world view then you're right I guess. I don't because nothing is ever absolute, so technically nothing ever ends. To make comparisons between Thai society and the vision of a Taliban society is laughable at best. The outward appearance of the two are nothing like each other. It's like saying a mouse resembles a human because of that statistic that we share ninety some odd percent of each other's genetic code, or that getting slapped in the face by a child is similar to being beaten mercilessly nearly to the point of death just because they both involve a degree of violence.

[DumFarang]

the flipping of one's gender seems to be epidemic in Thailand unlike any other country I have ever heard of. This is not only boys acting like girls, but girls acting and looking much like men. The "problem" will never be "solved" as long as the priority of convenience outweighs the consequence. The over consumption of Phthalates in the food chain from plastic bottles that sit in the sun and putting oily and hot food in plastic bags continues. A well known fact that Phthalates are carcinogenic and cause chromosome damage is well documented is a clear factor in gender disorders. The over use of estrogen mimicking pesticides is also well documented in causing the feminine qualities of a species to take dominance ie. hermaphroditic frogs and fish. In the case of hormones, a small amount has the same effect as a lot but in this country more is always better. More chemicals, more antibiotics, more volume, more MSG, the more "modern" the better. You can't change something that is by telling it it is not, ludicrous.

A good scientific precis of the most probable cause of so many ladyboys in Thailand, and incidentally the Philippines and Brazil. I would add that phthalates are used as plasticisers for PVC, hence the rigid plastic uPVC is not a risk, it is the flexible plastic found in most food wrappings which is the problem. Whilst phthallates will leach even into water, they leach more readily into acidified water such as carbonated drinks, the practice of small shops pouring coke etc into plastic bags, is a common practice in the three countries named.

Meat animals, particularly chickens, are regularly fed oestrogen in order to promote rapid growth, this then enters the food chain.

The end result of all this is that girls mature faster, breast development is precocious, boys become feminised and male sperm count falls.

Where I disagree with the quoted comment is in the incidence and correlation with female to male transition, lesbians are small in numbers compared to layboys, even then the majority are bi-sexual in orientation.

This is a very interesting twist on this thread. I have zero knowledge about it but thank you two for introducing it. Now I have an interesting new thing to learn about.

[Jirapa]

Women cannot be monks in Thailand - in Si Lanka yes, but not in Thailand.

It shows that sexism and homophobia are not the sole preserves of Christians

Yes they can they ware white and stay in separate accommodation from the men but still in the same temples. And please don't anyone argue as I was at one the other day which my wife was staying at for a week and no she didn't have to shave her head as women have the choice.

[animatic]

the flipping of one's gender seems to be epidemic in Thailand unlike any other country I have ever heard of. This is not only boys acting like girls, but girls acting and looking much like men. The "problem" will never be "solved" as long as the priority of convenience outweighs the consequence. The over consumption of Phthalates in the food chain from plastic bottles that sit in the sun and putting oily and hot food in plastic bags continues. A well known fact that Phthalates are carcinogenic and cause chromosome damage is well documented is a clear factor in gender disorders. The over use of estrogen mimicking pesticides is also well documented in causing the feminine qualities of a species to take dominance ie. hermaphroditic frogs and fish. In the case of hormones, a small amount has the same effect as a lot but in this country more is always better. More chemicals, more antibiotics, more volume, more MSG, the more "modern" the better. You can't change something that is by telling it it is not, ludicrous.

A good scientific precis of the most probable cause of so many ladyboys in Thailand, and incidentally the Philippines and Brazil. I would add that phthalates are used as plasticisers for PVC, hence the rigid plastic uPVC is not a risk, it is the flexible plastic found in most food wrappings which is the problem. Whilst phthallates will leach even into water, they leach more readily into acidified water such as carbonated drinks, the practice of small shops pouring coke etc into plastic bags, is a common practice in the three countries named.

Meat animals, particularly chickens, are regularly fed oestrogen in order to promote rapid growth, this then enters the food chain.

The end result of all this is that girls mature faster, breast development is precocious, boys become feminised and male sperm count falls.

Where I disagree with the quoted comment is in the incidence and correlation with female to male transition, lesbians are small in numbers compared to layboys, even then the majority are bi-sexual in orientation.

I agree this could well be an additional modern environmental factor.

On the other hand in the, images, literature and general history of Thailand Katoeys have been represented far more than most other cultures. And the generalized acceptance is much more wide spread for this to be a recent cultural adoption. This is why I suspect there is a specific transmittable genetic marker for this in Thai genetic culture. Of course adding 'Phthalates in the food chain', could increase this even more.

Edited July 16, 2011 by animatic

[BlueSmurf]

So why do you think (to everyone) that there seems to be a unusual amount of trans gender people in Thailand? Ok I know all some will say not enough! But...have a guess even or give it some thought to why..

here are the reasons that I have been told.

1.Lean bhap..thats copy to be in the gang.

2. Thailand is more open in general towards being gay.

3. Parents would rather see their daughter with another girl as a teenager than with a boy who may get here pregnant.

4. Poisons in the air and food.

5.Born that way.

6. Too much soy milk and tophu in the diet as a teenager which has too many female hormones in..The N.H.S. in the UK warns not to give this to teenage boys!

7.Being taught by elders and piers thats its acceptable to be Bi sexual..

I would probely agree across the board with all this reasons which add up to the reason we seem and do see more cross gender people in Thailand.

So any other reason you all can think of?

As for no.1 I would say that its a fair to say that maybe children who have become a Katoey at a eary age need time to find out if its what they really want so maybe there could be a reason for councilling at a early age? I will get slated for that but as I said some do it to become one of the gang..Told to me and seen by Thais...

I might say that

it is because a tribal genetic predisposition to #5,

explains 1-4 and 6-7. The #2 answer would be a rational response to a great many alternate-sexuals in the society, rather than the other way round. Nature vs Nurture: Born that way and then having accesible role models to emulate in several dozen degrees.

I also think the ladyboys themselves have found their definition: The Third Sex.

More some polymorphous bisexuality, than specifically gay or straight.

A good angle on my post rather than the other persons post that just says there is only one reason people are gay, because they are born that way....And yes some people just like to have sex no matter where it comes from...Maybe why people experiment when young as they have a high sex drive..?? Animatic you make this forum more interesting..

[Jirapa]

Yeah right! Because this country has so much in common with Taliban ruled Afghanistan!

Sure it does - the Buddhist conservative elements here, just as the Christian ones back home block efforts to improve sex education and access to reproductive health services by the young and poor, not only causing unnecessarily large numbers of teen pregnancies and kids not properly cared for, but vastly increased AIDS fatalities.

Refusal to publicly acknowledge the huge social problems caused by criminalizing the sex industry when all concerned would be much better off if it were legal and regulated.

Not as extreme, but still remnants of gender inequality under the law, and definite entrenched injustice at the social/community level, many customs and attitudes supporting women as chattel, little support for changing that through education from the top.

Despite women generally being more intelligent, ambitious and diligent than the men here, the better-paying, less-work jobs definitely go to men.

Not as extreme as the Taliban, but still stupid traditionalism maintained as if it were true morality by religion-supported conservativism. . .

Well if you go around always splitting hairs like this to define your world view then you're right I guess. I don't because nothing is ever absolute, so technically nothing ever ends. To make comparisons between Thai society and the vision of a Taliban society is laughable at best. The outward appearance of the two are nothing like each other. It's like saying a mouse resembles a human because of that statistic that we share ninety some odd percent of each other's genetic code, or that getting slapped in the face by a child is similar to being beaten mercilessly nearly to the point of death just because they both involve a degree of violence.

Precisely! This country has less rules and taboos than most western countries put together as the laws so rarely enforced. Go to any police station and it's all parking fines, coffee, TV and have a ciggy out front. Taliban indeed. My father in law's a monk since 10+ years and he drinks, smokes and has a girlfriend he sneaks off to see which is illegal here but they just turn a blind eye to it. In fact he came to stay with me for a week with his monk mate and they sat round in their robes drinking Lao Khao most days.

[SteeleJoe]

Women cannot be monks in Thailand - in Si Lanka yes, but not in Thailand.

It shows that sexism and homophobia are not the sole preserves of Christians

Yes they can they ware white and stay in separate accommodation from the men but still in the same temples. And please don't anyone argue as I was at one the other day which my wife was staying at for a week and no she didn't have to shave her head as women have the choice.

Those are nuns. Monks -- male or female -- where saffron. And nuns are not fully accepted -- the Sangha did not not yet recognize Mae Jie in the beginning of this decade and still does not as far as I know -- and within the temples and among the populace they typically face a great deal of prejudice and inequality.

[Jirapa]

Women cannot be monks in Thailand - in Si Lanka yes, but not in Thailand.

It shows that sexism and homophobia are not the sole preserves of Christians

Yes they can they ware white and stay in separate accommodation from the men but still in the same temples. And please don't anyone argue as I was at one the other day which my wife was staying at for a week and no she didn't have to shave her head as women have the choice.

Those are nuns. Monks -- male or female -- where saffron. And nuns are not fully accepted -- the Sangha did not not yet recognize Mae Jie in the beginning of this decade and still does not as far as I know -- and within the temples and among the populace they typically face a great deal of prejudice and inequality.

They're also called nuns in Europe and only men can be monks so don't pick at straws. They both devote there lives to the lord but never stay in the same accommodation, they're the same just different orders of sexes use different names.

[sydneyjed]

Ironically a BBC report doco' 2 years back highlighted in NE Thailand how schools had segregated toilets for 'alternate pupils' against male/female toilets..This they argued gave an individual their personality regardless of sexuallity...interesting!

I don't understand what this gender modification training has to do with Buddhism. More blowhard closet queens in orange trying to stop everybody else's rights to be who and what they want to be. Again Thailand proves that their unique taliban style of Buddhism will not tolerate anything but the party line.

[MUYTHAI]

the flipping of one's gender seems to be epidemic in Thailand unlike any other country I have ever heard of.

It is the same in the Philippines (PI). There are LBs everywhere in PI! There are many in Indonesia also. I assume there are fewer LBs in the other neighboring countries (Cambodia, Vietnam, China, etc.) because descrimination against them is rife and can even lead to the beatings and murder of LBs. There are many 'closet' LBs in the other more descriminating countries who are afraid to come out.

[SteeleJoe]

Women cannot be monks in Thailand - in Si Lanka yes, but not in Thailand.

It shows that sexism and homophobia are not the sole preserves of Christians

Yes they can they ware white and stay in separate accommodation from the men but still in the same temples. And please don't anyone argue as I was at one the other day which my wife was staying at for a week and no she didn't have to shave her head as women have the choice.

Those are nuns. Monks -- male or female -- where saffron. And nuns are not fully accepted -- the Sangha did not not yet recognize Mae Jie in the beginning of this decade and still does not as far as I know -- and within the temples and among the populace they typically face a great deal of prejudice and inequality.

They're also called nuns in Europe and only men can be monks so don't pick at straws. They both devote there lives to the lord but never stay in the same accommodation, they're the same just different orders of sexes use different names.

I'm sorry, but while I'm no expert I believe you are wrong. It's not merely a difference in labels. They are NOT the same.

It's true that the English word "monk" describes a male but that's the closest word we have for Bhikkhu (male) or Bhikkuni (female) -- but just as a Nun and Priest are not at all equivalent in Catholicism, neither are a Mae Jie and a Bhikku.

[wiscoman]

Again Thailand proves that their unique taliban style of Buddhism will not tolerate anything but the party line.

Exactly like Taliban 2.0

No it is still not even close to being like the Taliban. Nobody is publicly chopping off people's hands, stoning people to death, or banning music. Thailand is about as far away from Taliban culture as you can possibly get, and Buddhism in Thailand is a pretty tame religion when compared to almost every other major world religion.

[SteeleJoe]

Again Thailand proves that their unique taliban style of Buddhism will not tolerate anything but the party line.

Exactly like Taliban 2.0

No it is still not even close to being like the Taliban. Nobody is publicly chopping off people's hands, stoning people to death, or banning music. Thailand is about as far away from Taliban culture as you can possibly get, and Buddhism in Thailand is a pretty tame religion when compared to almost every other major world religion.

Spot On.

I have loads to complain about regarding what has happened to mainstream Thai Buddhism (as opposed to the "forest tradition") but people comparing it to the Taliban are really being dumb. Moreover it's offensive in that it not only grossly exaggerates what happens here but absurdly diminishes what was/is done in by the Talib.

[overhaul38]

Other countries have tried and continue to try to cure homosexuality but have had little success. I wish them luck.

[crusader79]

So why do you think (to everyone) that there seems to be a unusual amount of trans gender people in Thailand? Ok I know all some will say not enough! But...have a guess even or give it some thought to why..

here are the reasons that I have been told.

1.Lean bhap..thats copy to be in the gang.

2. Thailand is more open in general towards being gay.

3. Parents would rather see their daughter with another girl as a teenager than with a boy who may get here pregnant.

4. Poisons in the air and food.

5.Born that way.

6. Too much soy milk and tophu in the diet as a teenager which has too many female hormones in..The N.H.S. in the UK warns not to give this to teenage boys!

7.Being taught by elders and piers thats its acceptable to be Bi sexual..

I would probely agree across the board with all this reasons which add up to the reason we seem and do see more cross gender people in Thailand.

So any other reason you all can think of?

As for no.1 I would say that its a fair to say that maybe children who have become a Katoey at a eary age need time to find out if its what they really want so maybe there could be a reason for councilling at a early age? I will get slated for that but as I said some do it to become one of the gang..Told to me and seen by Thais...

I might say that

it is because a tribal genetic predisposition to #5,

explains 1-4 and 6-7. The #2 answer would be a rational response to a great many alternate-sexuals in the society, rather than the other way round. Nature vs Nurture: Born that way and then having accesible role models to emulate in several dozen degrees.

I also think the ladyboys themselves have found their definition: The Third Sex.

More some polymorphous bisexuality, than specifically gay or straight.

A good angle on my post rather than the other persons post that just says there is only one reason people are gay, because they are born that way....And yes some people just like to have sex no matter where it comes from...Maybe why people experiment when young as they have a high sex drive..?? Animatic you make this forum more interesting..

It's been several years since I read Richard Totman's book The Third Sex, he had some fascinating things to say on this subject. He's an Oxford sociologist who came to Thailand on holiday and had the same thought as the rest of us, why are there so many transexuals in Thailand? So he returned for an extended stay in the north, befriended local transexuals and their families, and tried to find some answers.

He argues that throughout human history there have been homosexual and transexual minorities (the latter possessing a mental gender that differs from the physical, which is not the same thing as same sex attraction). This was an accepted fact of life, and in fact transexuals often played a shamanistic role, perceived as 'special' and thus closer to the spirit world. With the advent of monotheistic religion, however, both groups were stigmatized and socially suppressed (although their continued presence was perhaps expressed in subliminal ways, such as the long tradition of crossdressing in performance art).

But more open transexuality survived (at least until relatively recent times) in pockets where the local culture was free from monotheism and/or practiced a very accepting form of religion, including Thailand, India, the south Pacific, Siberia and native America. He notes that in Thailand the transexuals were traditionally associated with the temples, living in communities alongside them, performing at temple fairs, suggesting a link to Thailand's animistic, shamanistic, pre-Buddhist past. But after WWII Thai society began changing enormously and first local cabarets, then the American GI influx, and finally mass tourism lured many transexuals into the booming entertainment and sex industries (while at the same time creating an enormous economic incentive for more individuals to buck family and social pressures and pursue their transexual identity).

Totman also argues that there is growing evidence that transexuality, like homosexuality, has a genetic basis (even if not always), reinforcing the argument that such minorities have existed throughout human history. He says that Thailand's transexuals are taller on average than the average Thai male (which is certainly my observation!), and that a statistically significant number are left-handed. This suggests that one of the genes contributing to the expression of transexuality shares a chromosome with important genes for height and 'handedness'. He also explains how genetics may account for the relative scarcity of female to male transexuals (too complicated to remember). He also expressed surprise at the relative lack of scientific research on this subject, all you budding geneticists out there.....

Anyway, that's what my not entirely reliable memory can retrieve!

Edited July 16, 2011 by crusader79

[scorecard]

Interesting article. If a person with same sex attractions sincerely wishes to comfortably be able to live a straight life and is willing to pay his dues, so to speak, it can be done.

What do you mean by 'pay his dues'?

[MrBrad]

When they are finished with their education they can then go on with their lives, whatever they choose to do. It will give them some perspective and time to decide what is the best for themselves. They will also learn patients and that they will be able to get what they want if they can wait a little while.

And I suppose for the sake of equal treatment, straight-identified 11-18 year-old boys should be indoctrinated in what it's like to be a lady boy for a number of months.

"When they are finished with their education they can then go on with their lives, whatever they choose to do. It will give them some perspective and time to decide what is the best for themselves. They will also learn patients (sic) and that they will be able to get what they want if they can wait a little while."