Jump to content
BANGKOK 18 July 2019 13:58
Sign in to follow this  
Duangta

25 Churches Now In Khao Lak

Recommended Posts

as regarding monotheism - those 3 are not the only religions and neither first to propagate it :

I was referring specifically to Abrahamic monotheisms, whose sacred scriptures, I believe, promote or encode a subtle culture of fear in the their discourse.

Thaibebop, foundationalists don't read St Augustine or any other commentators, they believe only the confirmed holy scriptures (Bible, Koran, etc) contain the message they would follow, and furthermore that the scriptures can be boiled down to a few ethical tenets. The proliferation of thought found in theology or academics is of no interest to a foundationalist.

That's distinct from fundamentalists, who follow every word of their chosen scripture without the boiling down process. Fundamentalists are more dangerous because they are adept at choosing bits of scripture to justify almost any action.

Both fall into what philosopher Peter Klein has called 'the infinite regress of reason' where the justification for faith or belief is assigned to God or scripture, rather than reason. This meta-justifcation is thus arbitrary, and since, by definition, an arbitrary belief is unjustified, there is an infinite regress of reason.

This is the exact opposite of the ways in which Augsutine, Thomas of Aquinas, Teilhard de Chardin, Blaise Pascal, etc would justify belief.

Now I know why I am confused. I didn't post anything about Augustine or any other commentors. So, I agree with you, but why were you directing that at me? Did I miss something again? :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Are Christians really good or are they doing it to impress god and secure their reward in heaven?

I know plenty of non religious people who are simply kind and good because that's how they are naturally.

Same can be applied to those building Merit, and Karma....is their only reasons for doing something good because they want something good to happen to themselves? Every single religion going uses some sort of reward/punishment system. Could it then be said that anyone who is religious is doing good deeds for personal gain alone, be it a better next life or securing a place in heaven.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Are Christians really good or are they doing it to impress god and secure their reward in heaven?

I know plenty of non religious people who are simply kind and good because that's how they are naturally.

Same can be applied to those building Merit, and Karma....is their only reasons for doing something good because they want something good to happen to themselves? Every single religion going uses some sort of reward/punishment system. Could it then be said that anyone who is religious is doing good deeds for personal gain alone, be it a better next life or securing a place in heaven.

Good point ArtfulD...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Now I know why I am confused. I didn't post anything about Augustine or any other commentors. So, I agree with you, but why were you directing that at me? Did I miss something again? :o

It was in (your) post #25:

So, you believe in a state of grace then? Now, that's outdated right there. So, then God already knows who is going and who is not? So, what the point of doing any converting or praying? Are you sure you have not read Augustine?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now I know why I am confused. I didn't post anything about Augustine or any other commentors. So, I agree with you, but why were you directing that at me? Did I miss something again? :o

It was in (your) post #25:

So, you believe in a state of grace then? Now, that's outdated right there. So, then God already knows who is going and who is not? So, what the point of doing any converting or praying? Are you sure you have not read Augustine?

Okay, but I think there may have been a missunderstanding. In the thread about converts in the Buddhism forum Suegha and I were discussing similar topics and he had said he had not read Augustine, but then he, in this thread, starts talking about the state of grace, which is an Augustine view. So, I asked him why he would believe in grace when most Christian nowadays believe that you could earn your way into heaven by being a good Christian, thus missionaries. I am making sense, or did I miss the point you were making. I can be slow sometimes, sorry.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and strictly speaking atheism / agnostisism or  ghedonism (practically any -ism) - is merely another kind of faith or religion  :o  : they also BELIEVE that THERE IS NO God. all same things they accuse theists in - can be turned back on them.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/agnostic.htm

Actually, agnsostics believe that the existence of god cannot be proved or disproved... a far cry from believing that there is no god.

Similarly, an athiest will not believe that there is a god, however, the atheist may not believe that there could not possibly be a god.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now I know why I am confused. I didn't post anything about Augustine or any other commentors. So, I agree with you, but why were you directing that at me? Did I miss something again? :o

It was in (your) post #25:

So, you believe in a state of grace then? Now, that's outdated right there. So, then God already knows who is going and who is not? So, what the point of doing any converting or praying? Are you sure you have not read Augustine?

Okay, but I think there may have been a missunderstanding. In the thread about converts in the Buddhism forum Suegha and I were discussing similar topics and he had said he had not read Augustine, but then he, in this thread, starts talking about the state of grace, which is an Augustine view. So, I asked him why he would believe in grace when most Christian nowadays believe that you could earn your way into heaven by being a good Christian, thus missionaries. I am making sense, or did I miss the point you were making. I can be slow sometimes, sorry.

I hate to sound Like I'm repeating my self - No I have not read Augustine, nor do I care what he wrote. However, on the subject 'of grace' thaibebop wrote "Now, that's outdated right there." No it's not, it's biblical. The word is used 170 times in the Bible, 130 of those in the NT and the one I quoted was from Eph 2 vv 8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." So it's not outdated, God never changes. This also deals with thaibebop's comment "most Christian nowadays believe that you could earn your way into heaven by being a good Christian". I have never met a Christian who said this. They can think it if they like but it's not scriptural! We can not earn our salvation!

Just one more thing, thaibebop wrote "So, then God already knows who is going and who is not? " I'm taking this to mean God knows who will have salvation and who won't, correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, God does know, he is the all seeing all knowing omnipotent God, he knows the beggining from the end, however, we don't! This is exactly the point of us (as you put it) "doing any converting or praying". I hope that clarifys things.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Do those Buddhists actually try and convert anyone to Buddhism?

IMO, Buddhism, especially in Thailand, is becoming increasingly "evangelistic", if I can use the term.

In Vancouver, Canada, I took some of my Vietnamese immigrant English-language students to visit a well-known Buddhist temple there, as it was a well-known tourist attraction for it's beauty. When we arrived I was beset upon by the monks and was rather taken aback by the English language literature they loaded me up with, unsolicited. Well, that was "western Buddhism."

What about Thailand?

I took a Bangkok Airways flight from BKK to Phnom Penh last year. For the entire flight, the "entertainment" was a video extolling the virtues of Buddhism, a "sermon" by a well-known monk, and clear instructions at the end on what you can do to find more information about Buddhism (phone numbers, email addresses, etc.). The video was in English and clearly aimed at westerners. I really didn't feel that a plane flight by a commercial airline was the proper venue for an evangelistic effort to be perpetrated onto its unsuspecting passengers.

Two years ago, some Thai friends took me to visit a well-known "forest temple" near Udon Thani, where there's a concentration of farang monks. What started out as a simple tour of the temple and grounds, turned into an attempted brain-washing session. They brought me into a hut for a "conference" with a farang monk, and first instructed me to bow my head to the dirt in reverence to the guy. As a non-Buddhist, I felt that it went a little bit beyond a simple show of respect, and I didn't feel comfortable doing it. He had to be happy with a simple "wai" from me, as I would give to any dignitary, religious or otherwise.

Then there followed a pretty high-pressure proselityzing sales pitch. I finally got so uncomfortable, I told my Thai friends, "You know, I respect your religion and beliefs, and even enjoy learning about it--but in a different context. Can we bring this to a close?" They obliged, and even admitted later that it was a bit of a "sneaky" and heavy-handed approach.

I know this is only anecdotal evidence from only one person, but three conversion attempts in three years? That's more than I've gotten from any Christian!

So, throw your mud at Christianity. If any religion believes that it is really the only way to eternal happiness and personal salvation, it is a given that it will make efforts to reach the pagan. If it makes no effort, then in my opinion, it's not worth its salt.

Despite my negative experiences above, I admire my Buddhist friends for their logical and practical follow-through of their beliefs. I admire a sincere Christian for the same reason. At the same time, I abhor any pressure, manipulation or deceipt to accomplish said goals.

Edited by cdnvic

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...I abhor any pressure, manipulation or deceipt to accomplish said goals.

And yes, that includes the Medieval Crusades, the sale of Indulgences to spring your tortured sweet grandma out of Purgatory, and the destruction of the "infidels' Twin Towers."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
...I abhor any pressure, manipulation or deceipt to accomplish said goals.

And yes, that includes the Medieval Crusades, the sale of Indulgences to spring your tortured sweet grandma out of Purgatory, and the destruction of the "infidels' Twin Towers."

Well said toptuan!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now I know why I am confused. I didn't post anything about Augustine or any other commentors. So, I agree with you, but why were you directing that at me? Did I miss something again? :o

It was in (your) post #25:

So, you believe in a state of grace then? Now, that's outdated right there. So, then God already knows who is going and who is not? So, what the point of doing any converting or praying? Are you sure you have not read Augustine?

Okay, but I think there may have been a missunderstanding. In the thread about converts in the Buddhism forum Suegha and I were discussing similar topics and he had said he had not read Augustine, but then he, in this thread, starts talking about the state of grace, which is an Augustine view. So, I asked him why he would believe in grace when most Christian nowadays believe that you could earn your way into heaven by being a good Christian, thus missionaries. I am making sense, or did I miss the point you were making. I can be slow sometimes, sorry.

I hate to sound Like I'm repeating my self - No I have not read Augustine, nor do I care what he wrote. However, on the subject 'of grace' thaibebop wrote "Now, that's outdated right there." No it's not, it's biblical. The word is used 170 times in the Bible, 130 of those in the NT and the one I quoted was from Eph 2 vv 8-9 "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast." So it's not outdated, God never changes. This also deals with thaibebop's comment "most Christian nowadays believe that you could earn your way into heaven by being a good Christian". I have never met a Christian who said this. They can think it if they like but it's not scriptural! We can not earn our salvation!

Just one more thing, thaibebop wrote "So, then God already knows who is going and who is not? " I'm taking this to mean God knows who will have salvation and who won't, correct me if I'm wrong. Yes, God does know, he is the all seeing all knowing omnipotent God, he knows the beggining from the end, however, we don't! This is exactly the point of us (as you put it) "doing any converting or praying". I hope that clarifys things.

Yeah, so, let me repeat myself, CHRISTIANS AREN"T LIKE YOU. Okay? You have your nose so far in the book you don't know what other Christians are doing or what they believe. So, please read something else before telling me what Christians are, becuase you have no clue. I said it before, but, you should care what Augustine wrote and others like him because they have influenced modern Christian thinking, thus how that book of yours is understood by other Chirstians. And the whole grace thing has been thrown out a long time ago because why would any want to be a Christian if what they did had no effect of getting them into heaven? The Church (which ever one you want to use) isn't going to get modern people in the pews by saying that God has predetermined who is going to h3ll and who to heaven and there is nothing you can do about it. So, yes it is an outdated concept.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, so, let me repeat myself, CHRISTIANS AREN"T LIKE YOU. Okay? You have your nose so far in the book you don't know what other Christians are doing or what they believe. So, please read something else before telling me what Christians are, becuase you have no clue. I said it before, but, you should care what Augustine wrote and others like him because they have influenced modern Christian thinking, thus how that book of yours is understood by other Chirstians. And the whole grace thing has been thrown out a long time ago because why would any want to be a Christian if what they did had no effect of getting them into heaven? The Church (which ever one you want to use) isn't going to get modern people in the pews by saying that God has predetermined who is going to h3ll and who to heaven and there is nothing you can do about it. So, yes it is an outdated concept.

wow thaibebop! your post reads like you think all christians are the same... are you saying that all modern christians think the same, and that all christians believe in going to heaven or he11? i think suegha describes himself as a christian - but he just doesn't believe some stuff that some other christians believe.

i know loads of christians who believe (fundamentally) different things to each other - and i know loads of christians who don't believe in the concepts of heaven and he11 as places of eternal reward or punishment...

i think from the people i discuss these things with that there are variations of belief within people who share the same 'title' (eg christian) - sometimes over absolutely fundamental things (eg heaven and hel_l!). i think that's the same for other major religions too - eg some muslims think islam justifies killing non-muslims, some think the opposite and say it condemns the taking of innocent life - and i'm sure there are similar examples in other religions...

a previous 'poster' wrote about foundationalists and fundamentalists... i really appreciated those definitions - i'd not heard of foundationalists before. sounds to me like suegha is a 'foundationalist' who believes that christ was the 'messiah', and that the 'holy scriptures' are complete (which could be why he calls himself a christian). if that's the case, why should he read augustine (except out of general interest)? it would have no effect on his general beliefs or faith. i'm sure there must be many writers (across religions and with no religion) who don't believe in the concept of 'grace' - but then there are church of england bishops in england who don't believe quite a bit of what the bible says!

surely by definition, a foundationalist wouldn't believe that it's possible for the bible to be 'outdated'? (would welcome the original poster's view on this...)

ps - just wanted to apologise ... as you can tell, i'm new to this!

i didn't know how to check who'd said about foundationalists and fundamentalists once i'd started to post a reply!!! so, thanks sabaijai for your definitions. and, as i said, i'd appreciate your response to the question at the end of my previous post.

i'll get the hang of this soon... :o

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, so, let me repeat myself, CHRISTIANS AREN"T LIKE YOU. Okay? You have your nose so far in the book you don't know what other Christians are doing or what they believe. So, please read something else before telling me what Christians are, becuase you have no clue. I said it before, but, you should care what Augustine wrote and others like him because they have influenced modern Christian thinking, thus how that book of yours is understood by other Chirstians. And the whole grace thing has been thrown out a long time ago because why would any want to be a Christian if what they did had no effect of getting them into heaven? The Church (which ever one you want to use) isn't going to get modern people in the pews by saying that God has predetermined who is going to h3ll and who to heaven and there is nothing you can do about it. So, yes it is an outdated concept.

wow thaibebop! your post reads like you think all christians are the same... are you saying that all modern christians think the same, and that all christians believe in going to heaven or he11? i think suegha describes himself as a christian - but he just doesn't believe some stuff that some other christians believe.

i know loads of christians who believe (fundamentally) different things to each other - and i know loads of christians who don't believe in the concepts of heaven and he11 as places of eternal reward or punishment...

i think from the people i discuss these things with that there are variations of belief within people who share the same 'title' (eg christian) - sometimes over absolutely fundamental things (eg heaven and hel_l!). i think that's the same for other major religions too - eg some muslims think islam justifies killing non-muslims, some think the opposite and say it condemns the taking of innocent life - and i'm sure there are similar examples in other religions...

a previous 'poster' wrote about foundationalists and fundamentalists... i really appreciated those definitions - i'd not heard of foundationalists before. sounds to me like suegha is a 'foundationalist' who believes that christ was the 'messiah', and that the 'holy scriptures' are complete (which could be why he calls himself a christian). if that's the case, why should he read augustine (except out of general interest)? it would have no effect on his general beliefs or faith. i'm sure there must be many writers (across religions and with no religion) who don't believe in the concept of 'grace' - but then there are church of england bishops in england who don't believe quite a bit of what the bible says!

surely by definition, a foundationalist wouldn't believe that it's possible for the bible to be 'outdated'? (would welcome the original poster's view on this...)

ps - just wanted to apologise ... as you can tell, i'm new to this!

i didn't know how to check who'd said about foundationalists and fundamentalists once i'd started to post a reply!!! so, thanks sabaijai for your definitions. and, as i said, i'd appreciate your response to the question at the end of my previous post.

i'll get the hang of this soon... :D

Trying reading my post and then respond. It might work better. :o

Edited by thaibebop

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thaibebop wrote "Yeah, so, let me repeat myself, CHRISTIANS AREN"T LIKE YOU. Okay? You have your nose so far in the book you don't know what other Christians are doing or what they believe. So, please read something else before telling me what Christians are, becuase you have no clue. I said it before, but, you should care what Augustine wrote and others like him because they have influenced modern Christian thinking, thus how that book of yours is understood by other Chirstians. And the whole grace thing has been thrown out a long time ago because why would any want to be a Christian if what they did had no effect of getting them into heaven? The Church (which ever one you want to use) isn't going to get modern people in the pews by saying that God has predetermined who is going to h3ll and who to heaven and there is nothing you can do about it. So, yes it is an outdated concept."

I respond with...

Thaibebop, let me deal with your points in turn in and add a few more constructive comments.

1. I don’t like people SHOUTING at me so please desist!

2. How can you say I haven’t got a clue? 30 years of bible study and a ‘thinking’ mind tells me I have got a clue!

3. I believe the bible to be the inspired word of God and therefore it can never be outdated, regardless of what a man (or men) might say.

4. I don’t care what other Christians might think if it contradicts what the bible says.

5. I don’t believe in he11 or heaven going at death, it is apostate doctrine and not what the bible teaches.

6. Yes, God is omnipotent, knowing the beginning from the end, this is what the bible teaches so it’s good enough for me.

7. How can you know what ‘all’ Christians believe? I don’t claim to. Also, I have never met a Christian who disagrees with salvation by grace through faith!

Finally I found your post (and your subsequent post to lilyflower) confrontational and that is not what I wish to encounter on a forum. If you wish to post more, please avoid the confrontational tone and I would be happy to respond.

Edited by suegha

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thaibebop wrote...

Trying reading my post and then respond. It might work better. :o

hmmmn... did you think i responded without reading your post? what was it i said that made you think that?

i thought i was responding quite clearly to the points you made in your post.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...