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robblok

Many Lakes Too Expensive

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If feeding the fish is such a big part of the budget, does it not make more sense to have more anglers dumping bait in the water ? Then just 1. I mean if 1 angler uses 1 bag of lam and 5 anglers 5 bags. That saves you 4 bags on a day.

In shadow i see them count how much goes in and then feed accordingly. Days that much goes in not much is put in later.

So it actually costs them a lot if there are not many fishermen.

Double because one you got people paying for the bait (making money on that) plus they have to feed the fish less.

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Robblok,

I think this a topic I have commented on in another thread somewhere, but its always interesting to observe expats perspectives on the cost of a days fishing.

The commercial aspect of setting up and running a fishery being a subject I have a lot of experiences in, I feel qualified to make some observations.

Firstly, just like any other country in the world as far as fishing experiences are concerned you get what you pay for as a general rule of thumb. If you was living in the UK on a state pension would you expect to be able to afford to be member of the UK's best carp syndicates? Or fish the most expensive stretches of river for Salmon? Give it some thought and you start to answer your own questions.

There seems to be a perception among a lot expat anglers that fisheries can basically defy the law of economics, just becuase they operate in Thailand. For example that they can create something of value out of fresh air, like a big Mekong, just materialise in a lake becuase "big fish are easier to grow in the tropics, and/or "theres more natural food", when in fact quite the opposite is often true in commercial fisheries. Food is actually the single biggest issue that a fisheries manager has to contend with when he has large stock of big fish in a small pond. Its virtually impossible for the fish to flourish in this environment unless they are fed regularly, and the "hole" is often utterly devoid of nearly all natural food sources.

Fisheries dont "lose revenue" from expats. They are not interest in the amount of revenue your prepared to spend. Fisheries charging 5000BHT a day or more dont care if its tourist money or expat money, your not being singled out for special treatment just becuase you live here...and if you do get offered a discount think yourself fortunate.

Places like shadow lake can offer a low cost days fishing for one reason and one reason only. Their capital investment is old. In the last few years in Thailand, the cost setting up a fishery similar to Shadow Lake has probably risen 5 to 10 fold, putting it into 10s of millions of baht,if you was to invest such sums of money would you feel happy letting people fish for a thousand baht a day? The only reason the fishery can operate at such low charges is that its a long established business...this is very similar for Bungsamran, which really operates on a knife edge, becuase the fish in Bungsamran represent many millions of DOLLARS worth of investment over 30 years...this could all be wiped out in the blink of an eye if they had a contamination and fish kill. Do you think they could restock the venue at the same prices they did 10 or 20 years ago? No! So it would probably just cease to trade.

Ultimately decent low cost fisheries will become harder and harder to find, so I suggest you make hay whilst the sunshines.

We talked about this before im pretty sure you know what your talking about but your also reasoning from your point of view.

It all depends on how fast you want to make cash and get your money back. I think you guys are just too greedy on that part. Normal business with high investment wont make it back in a few years but you guys seem to want that.

Just divide your investment by 20 plus running cost that would be what you have to cover each year. I think many of you guys think you should divide the investment by 5 or 10.

Thing is im not on a pension and im making far more money then the locals. Around 150k after tax a month. And i still think its expensive. Just would someone be able to fish at the best carp syndicates if he had an above average income ? Id think the answer is yes. They would not set their prices that high. But you guys do so in an environment where cost are low.

I can only conclude you want to make too much profit in a short time. Actually by saying BSR and shadow were old you made the whole point. I think you put your depreciation too high. Normally on building and stuff you have a depreciation of 20+ years. The same could be said for lakes. Your stock that is an other matter at all, if your stocking catfish it would be cheaper as predators.

Anyway we could argue this all year round and in the end you are the one setting the prices not me. But ill do my part to steer fellow anglers away from the fisheries with high price tags.

Bloody hell Rob you earn 150k+ a month unbelievable money, I understand you have morals and do not like being ripped off but why worry with that sort of money to hand, think about people like me who are on a 4th of what you have, I am not complaining as that is life nearly all fishing and all golf is out of my reach, I am still happy though!!

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Robblok,

I think this a topic I have commented on in another thread somewhere, but its always interesting to observe expats perspectives on the cost of a days fishing.

The commercial aspect of setting up and running a fishery being a subject I have a lot of experiences in, I feel qualified to make some observations.

Firstly, just like any other country in the world as far as fishing experiences are concerned you get what you pay for as a general rule of thumb. If you was living in the UK on a state pension would you expect to be able to afford to be member of the UK's best carp syndicates? Or fish the most expensive stretches of river for Salmon? Give it some thought and you start to answer your own questions.

There seems to be a perception among a lot expat anglers that fisheries can basically defy the law of economics, just becuase they operate in Thailand. For example that they can create something of value out of fresh air, like a big Mekong, just materialise in a lake becuase "big fish are easier to grow in the tropics, and/or "theres more natural food", when in fact quite the opposite is often true in commercial fisheries. Food is actually the single biggest issue that a fisheries manager has to contend with when he has large stock of big fish in a small pond. Its virtually impossible for the fish to flourish in this environment unless they are fed regularly, and the "hole" is often utterly devoid of nearly all natural food sources.

Fisheries dont "lose revenue" from expats. They are not interest in the amount of revenue your prepared to spend. Fisheries charging 5000BHT a day or more dont care if its tourist money or expat money, your not being singled out for special treatment just becuase you live here...and if you do get offered a discount think yourself fortunate.

Places like shadow lake can offer a low cost days fishing for one reason and one reason only. Their capital investment is old. In the last few years in Thailand, the cost setting up a fishery similar to Shadow Lake has probably risen 5 to 10 fold, putting it into 10s of millions of baht,if you was to invest such sums of money would you feel happy letting people fish for a thousand baht a day? The only reason the fishery can operate at such low charges is that its a long established business...this is very similar for Bungsamran, which really operates on a knife edge, becuase the fish in Bungsamran represent many millions of DOLLARS worth of investment over 30 years...this could all be wiped out in the blink of an eye if they had a contamination and fish kill. Do you think they could restock the venue at the same prices they did 10 or 20 years ago? No! So it would probably just cease to trade.

Ultimately decent low cost fisheries will become harder and harder to find, so I suggest you make hay whilst the sunshines.

We talked about this before im pretty sure you know what your talking about but your also reasoning from your point of view.

It all depends on how fast you want to make cash and get your money back. I think you guys are just too greedy on that part. Normal business with high investment wont make it back in a few years but you guys seem to want that.

Just divide your investment by 20 plus running cost that would be what you have to cover each year. I think many of you guys think you should divide the investment by 5 or 10.

Thing is im not on a pension and im making far more money then the locals. Around 150k after tax a month. And i still think its expensive. Just would someone be able to fish at the best carp syndicates if he had an above average income ? Id think the answer is yes. They would not set their prices that high. But you guys do so in an environment where cost are low.

I can only conclude you want to make too much profit in a short time. Actually by saying BSR and shadow were old you made the whole point. I think you put your depreciation too high. Normally on building and stuff you have a depreciation of 20+ years. The same could be said for lakes. Your stock that is an other matter at all, if your stocking catfish it would be cheaper as predators.

Anyway we could argue this all year round and in the end you are the one setting the prices not me. But ill do my part to steer fellow anglers away from the fisheries with high price tags.

Bloody hell Rob you earn 150k+ a month unbelievable money, I understand you have morals and do not like being ripped off but why worry with that sort of money to hand, think about people like me who are on a 4th of what you have, I am not complaining as that is life nearly all fishing and all golf is out of my reach, I am still happy though!!

I am not complaining i am questioning prices, and they can easily be manipulated. Its easy to justify things but i know a lot about profits and accounting. I know how you can appear to be making a loss while you are not.

BSR and shadow show that the economical lifespan of a lake is real long 30 years for sure. If he is calculating with 5 years. Then yes he can say he is making a loss.

Also he was complaining about feeding fish, if you have many anglers they will feed the fish and pay for it. If you keep it exclusive the lake pays for feeding. So that is not a reason to justify high prices.

These are just my 2 cents, in the end i cant influence the price at all but i can question it. If many people question it then lakes are forced to lower it.

However this is not easily accomplished because tourists gladly pay high prices. But if the economic situation changes they might not be. I am also active on some Dutch fishing forums and fishing in Thailand sometimes comes up and prices are questioned then. I just hand out free advice there.

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Fishing lake owners and fishing guides will always say they are worth their money. Everyone will always say they are worth their money and if they could give themselves a raise they would.

Its human nature, so its quite normal to question it. Information given by people involved is never unbiased.

Just like my opinion is colored by the wish of lower prices. So the truth will always be somewhere in the middle.

Just look at it this way if you could give yourself a raise you would find a way to justify it, others would too even if its not justified. That is why others usually decide these things.

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About the big expensive syndicate carp waters in the UK i haven't been able to find those that charge 5000 bt a day for a rod. Also don't forget wages are higher and cost too in the UK.

The prices that i found were more in line with prices at BSR.

If you can point them out ill look into it but they should be at least 7500 a day as everything is more expensive int he UK compared to Thailand.

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Robblok,

I think this a topic I have commented on in another thread somewhere, but its always interesting to observe expats perspectives on the cost of a days fishing.

The commercial aspect of setting up and running a fishery being a subject I have a lot of experiences in, I feel qualified to make some observations.

Firstly, just like any other country in the world as far as fishing experiences are concerned you get what you pay for as a general rule of thumb. If you was living in the UK on a state pension would you expect to be able to afford to be member of the UK's best carp syndicates? Or fish the most expensive stretches of river for Salmon? Give it some thought and you start to answer your own questions.

There seems to be a perception among a lot expat anglers that fisheries can basically defy the law of economics, just becuase they operate in Thailand. For example that they can create something of value out of fresh air, like a big Mekong, just materialise in a lake becuase "big fish are easier to grow in the tropics, and/or "theres more natural food", when in fact quite the opposite is often true in commercial fisheries. Food is actually the single biggest issue that a fisheries manager has to contend with when he has large stock of big fish in a small pond. Its virtually impossible for the fish to flourish in this environment unless they are fed regularly, and the "hole" is often utterly devoid of nearly all natural food sources.

Fisheries dont "lose revenue" from expats. They are not interest in the amount of revenue your prepared to spend. Fisheries charging 5000BHT a day or more dont care if its tourist money or expat money, your not being singled out for special treatment just becuase you live here...and if you do get offered a discount think yourself fortunate.

Places like shadow lake can offer a low cost days fishing for one reason and one reason only. Their capital investment is old. In the last few years in Thailand, the cost setting up a fishery similar to Shadow Lake has probably risen 5 to 10 fold, putting it into 10s of millions of baht,if you was to invest such sums of money would you feel happy letting people fish for a thousand baht a day? The only reason the fishery can operate at such low charges is that its a long established business...this is very similar for Bungsamran, which really operates on a knife edge, becuase the fish in Bungsamran represent many millions of DOLLARS worth of investment over 30 years...this could all be wiped out in the blink of an eye if they had a contamination and fish kill. Do you think they could restock the venue at the same prices they did 10 or 20 years ago? No! So it would probably just cease to trade.

Ultimately decent low cost fisheries will become harder and harder to find, so I suggest you make hay whilst the sunshines.

Regardless of personal finances i maybe one of the more tight arsed anglers where prices for fishing parks are concerned, Some years ago i used to be regular at shadow but never go now...might go again in the near future it was always value for money,

I have a strong and healthy distaste for this not only sick but immoral practice of double pricing based on race or skin colour and refuse to go anywhere that wants to shaft me with it....it would leave a bad taste in my mouth and ruin my whole day....i walk away feeling happier than had i got ripped off and gone in,

I feel fishing in thailand is a passion and should be embraced so if a venue is priced out of reach for the local thais regardless of how fat my wallet is or is not they wont be seeing my face or money + i would invest energy convincing others not to support it, I definatly would,nt feel good fishing venues here where thai angling friends could,nt join in,

Bungsamran was a place i point blank refused to visit and would try to convince visiting friends to avoid the place with gusto...when they changed their pricing policy towards expats who live here

I became very regular and still am night or day...i found i had little or no interest in targeting siamese carp and had anyway caught those at shadow but was trying to find a way to target the monster plah bueks (willy) it was the challenge of landing them, I came to the conclusion there is no real way to target the big ones but on average every 30th bug you hook will be a monster and it became quite a workout (i,m not the youngest and it hurts at times) When sawai take my hook i feel a little annoyed as it might have been a willy had that pesky sawai left my hook alone :annoyed:

Apart from bait fishing i find myself addicted to snakehead hunting with lures, just get a kick out of tricking a fish into biting something fake and the explosive take on the lure, i visited pilot 111 at times and really found no negatives...fun and value spring to mind, I was surprised to find some of the unsuspecting wild ponds in bkk around where i live have snakehead in there too.

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Sorry I dont get a chance to keep up with all the new posts and reply to them as they are added, but to be honest its probably just as well.

Lets a get a few things straight shall we?

Firstly, I'm not defending the fisheries who ask for higher ticket fees, any more than I am defending the uneducated Thai man running a loss making venture,

I am simply stating the facts. You get what you pay for take it or leave it.

So Rob, you earn a good salary, but are not happy to spend 3% of it for a day out on a monthly basis on your number one hobby, you must be caked! (Would you like to invest in a fishery?...then youd have no ticket cost, but you would have spent upwards of 15milbht) Thats of course your prerogative, as it is anyone else's as to where and what they choose to do with their hobbies. Heavydrinker yes fishing in the Chao Praya is fun under some of the bridges up near Rangsit for example....tell me can you catch a 50kg Chao Praya Catfish out of there? if you can, then your right to keep it off the forums (send me a PM and I'll buy the information from you!) If you can it will be the first one caught in 20 years, so please let us know when it happens.

Well the fact that things grow in the tropics is not exactly news is it? And provided knowone had to pay for the food then isnt that a great thing? But we are talking about fishing parks here that are massively over stocked in order to give you or someone the fishing experience they want. If you overstock with Mekongs they lose weight, so the cost of all that 6 year effort to get one to 100kg has to be born by someone....would you do it? For a few thousand baht a fish? Even Mekongs now, the easiest and fastest growing sport fish that can be farmed for introduction into fisheries are getting expensive. When I first came to Thailand you could buy 1 at 30BHT a kilo up to 30kg and 80BHt a kilo for 30kg fish upwards. Now you are lucky if you can even find 50kg+ fish to buy unless you have them farmed under contract.

But the species thing opens up another series of questions for you non believers of the costs of running a fishery. If your happy just targeting the same old 1 or 2 species, then of course you can pay a few hundred baht for your days fishing. if your happy fishing in the knowledge that 95% of the fish are all in a fixed weight range, then you can fish for a few hundred baht. If that is what fishing is about for you, then once again that is your prerogative. But most people who get on a plane and fly 12hrs specifically to come and fish, are not interest in a countries "also-ran" fisheries. They want the best opportunity to catch the best of what that country has to offer.

The fisheries that charge high prices are not discriminating against expats who don't want to spend money or Thai's for that matter...they are trying to offer a service, that some people at least want.

Finally Id just say...I have done detailed business models on just about every type of fishery concept you can imagine here in Thailand. Unfortunately the only ones that easily workable are to the "Pla Buk, Pla Sawai" holes, and the Barramundi catch and takes....thats why this is where the Thai's in this business focus their efforts, becuase its safe and it doesnt lose money hand over fist.

Just as point in case....Ive attached a scale 6 inches across from a 100kg carp (perhaps a 100 years old) that was briefly foul hooked at Bungsamran a few weeks back.If you wanted to buy this fish, do you have any idea's what the costs would be?

The answer means you could buy 20 rai in Isaan for less! or perhaps build a nice 3 bedroom bungalow for your Tilak. Perhaps time to rethink your logic guys?

post-32215-0-83250900-1319424277_thumb.j

Edited by rufanuf

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Just simplifying my rant a little bit, Robblok. All the 5000BHT plus fisheries your talking about are in fact predator fisheries, and it is these that fishery managers ask a lot more money for as a rule of thumb. The maths you state for fisheries about taking your investment and divided it by 20 but the owners want their money back in 5 years instead of 20 is nonsense.

The decision the fishery manager has to make is at what price level is he prepared to take the risk that your fishing activities might kill his investment? 1000BHT or 10,000BHT Maybe????

If a 100kg Arapaima costs 100,000BHT, and it could die the next time it is even hooked...how would make that judgement call? And this is not just true of Arapiama, its true of many of the fish species barring one or two....In fact the one or two that most Thai fisheries stock, for reason the fishery managers understand, they are easy to keep.

If you really wanted a frank opinion on the risk involved in setting up a mixed species fishery sit down and have a serious chat with one or two of the owners, you'll find most are struggling to make it work as a concept, thats why they keep hiking prices on tour operators as well as local expats. Its not impossible,but it is very difficult to make money from the fish alone, it really has to be a lifestyle choice and you need to be happy to work for much less than the salary of an accountant, regardless of where you set the ticket price.

Edited by rufanuf

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I'd like to fish more, but refuse to pay the stupid prices.. they put the price up in phuket where i live and i havent been in 6 months now. but im splashing out in febuary on a trip to samui. Hope i get some nice fish! when i convert it to UK pounds i think christ i would never ever pay 30 quid to fish in the UK so why should i here... and its better fishing in the UK too!

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If feeding the fish is such a big part of the budget, does it not make more sense to have more anglers dumping bait in the water ? Then just 1. I mean if 1 angler uses 1 bag of lam and 5 anglers 5 bags. That saves you 4 bags on a day.

In shadow i see them count how much goes in and then feed accordingly. Days that much goes in not much is put in later.

So it actually costs them a lot if there are not many fishermen.

Double because one you got people paying for the bait (making money on that) plus they have to feed the fish less.

Edited by hedonist44

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Robbie, I think you made a good point about having more customers, it is a lot cheaper to not to have to feed the fish. It is simple economics and people will vote with their wallet. They make money on the cost per rod plus you are feeding the fish. The owners are entitled to charge whatever they think the customers are willing to pay, if if customers do not see the value, than they have to drop their prices.

I disagree with one of the replies where they say you make a lots of money and you should not complain. If they were a millionaire, does it mean they will pay fifty bucks for a bottle of water? I go to many fishing parks that guys spend hundreds of baht on bait, when they only pay a hundred baht to fish.

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Just to make a few things clear here. I was talking about regular fishing. That means going there every week 1 or 2 times. I am not talking about the occasional trip to a lake.

Also i was talking about lakes holding mekong catfish not the predators. These damage easier.

Anyway i had a great experience as Gilhams a few days ago. So much better as palm tree. For almost the same price. The lake is better, much larger. The fish are treated much better. Scenery ten times better. No funny stuff with prices.

I would certainly return there, but its not a lake for regular fishing even if it was closer to me. Its just too expensive for that. I would go there once in a while.

The lake was fished by about 10-15 anglers on the days i was there. You were not crowded (though if a mekong was hooked problems would arise). I found the rods and reels a bit under powered (for mekong). But that is because i use different gear now. Fish were treated for wounds with a kind of anti biotic, mekongs got an injection after a fight to help them deal with the stress of the fight. I never seen fish being treated better.

I am also of the opinion that a mekong lake is a lot less costly then a predator lake so those things must be taken in consideration.

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Robblok...

I am heading to Gillhams for a few days fishing myself in a few weeks time and was wondering how it is currently fishing. The website currently does not sport a newsletter for November.

I had intended bringing a couple of rods over but Lufthansa want too much as they are over 1.49metres in length so will have to resort to using the hire tackle. There will however, be room in my bag for an 8 weight fly rod and I was thinking of bringing a 4 piece Shimano exage texasbt3050 rod coupled with a TLD25 loaded with 150bs braid as per fishery recommendations for tackling the freshwater stingers.

Yes,It's not cheap but compared to chasing a white ball around a manicured lawn represents value for money.

Just to make a few things clear here. I was talking about regular fishing. That means going there every week 1 or 2 times. I am not talking about the occasional trip to a lake.

Also i was talking about lakes holding mekong catfish not the predators. These damage easier.

Anyway i had a great experience as Gilhams a few days ago. So much better as palm tree. For almost the same price. The lake is better, much larger. The fish are treated much better. Scenery ten times better. No funny stuff with prices.

I would certainly return there, but its not a lake for regular fishing even if it was closer to me. Its just too expensive for that. I would go there once in a while.

The lake was fished by about 10-15 anglers on the days i was there. You were not crowded (though if a mekong was hooked problems would arise). I found the rods and reels a bit under powered (for mekong). But that is because i use different gear now. Fish were treated for wounds with a kind of anti biotic, mekongs got an injection after a fight to help them deal with the stress of the fight. I never seen fish being treated better.

I am also of the opinion that a mekong lake is a lot less costly then a predator lake so those things must be taken in consideration.

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Just to make a few things clear here. I was talking about regular fishing. That means going there every week 1 or 2 times. I am not talking about the occasional trip to a lake.

Also i was talking about lakes holding mekong catfish not the predators. These damage easier.

Anyway i had a great experience as Gilhams a few days ago. So much better as palm tree. For almost the same price. The lake is better, much larger. The fish are treated much better. Scenery ten times better. No funny stuff with prices.

I would certainly return there, but its not a lake for regular fishing even if it was closer to me. Its just too expensive for that. I would go there once in a while.

The lake was fished by about 10-15 anglers on the days i was there. You were not crowded (though if a mekong was hooked problems would arise). I found the rods and reels a bit under powered (for mekong). But that is because i use different gear now. Fish were treated for wounds with a kind of anti biotic, mekongs got an injection after a fight to help them deal with the stress of the fight. I never seen fish being treated better.

I am also of the opinion that a mekong lake is a lot less costly then a predator lake so those things must be taken in consideration.

Gillham's is an example in point. You couldn't possibly expect to pay a few hundred baht to fish a place like this, its not a "regular" place to fish unless you have considerable funds, but most dont argue that its value for money. Not withstanding facilties and services Palm Tree has at least as many big fish per rai of various species, and if you asked the owners what is the most expensive element of the business they would both say the fish. Which is really the point I was trying to make. Barring surroundings they are exceptional fisheries becuase of the fish, and thats the single biggest expense.

I

Edited by rufanuf

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Just to make a few things clear here. I was talking about regular fishing. That means going there every week 1 or 2 times. I am not talking about the occasional trip to a lake.

Also i was talking about lakes holding mekong catfish not the predators. These damage easier.

Anyway i had a great experience as Gilhams a few days ago. So much better as palm tree. For almost the same price. The lake is better, much larger. The fish are treated much better. Scenery ten times better. No funny stuff with prices.

I would certainly return there, but its not a lake for regular fishing even if it was closer to me. Its just too expensive for that. I would go there once in a while.

The lake was fished by about 10-15 anglers on the days i was there. You were not crowded (though if a mekong was hooked problems would arise). I found the rods and reels a bit under powered (for mekong). But that is because i use different gear now. Fish were treated for wounds with a kind of anti biotic, mekongs got an injection after a fight to help them deal with the stress of the fight. I never seen fish being treated better.

I am also of the opinion that a mekong lake is a lot less costly then a predator lake so those things must be taken in consideration.

Gillham's is an example in point. You couldn't possibly expect to pay a few hundred baht to fish a place like this, its not a "regular" place to fish unless you have considerable funds, but most dont argue that its value for money. Not withstanding facilties and services Palm Tree has at least as many big fish per rai of various species, and if you asked the owners what is the most expensive element of the business they would both say the fish. Which is really the point I was trying to make. Barring surroundings they are exceptional fisheries becuase of the fish, and thats the single biggest expense.

I

To be honest you cant possible compare Gillhams with Palm Tree. No comparison for the serious angler what so ever. Size of the lake, looks of the lake.. accomedations. And the prices are similar. Palm tree would have been half the price of Gilhams if you compare the two. Its just too small and doesnt look the part. I seen sawai ponds that are bigger then that.

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