German Tourist Fatally Injured After Falling From Elephant's Back

[cowslip]

It is FAR too soon for a "report" - what is happening now is that some people are engaging other "reputable" people to engage in a cover-up.

There also seems to be two parallel issues here

One is the actual incident and how it reflects on Thai health and safety

Two is the treatment and exploitation of animals in Thailand.

Both are a source of shame for this country.

[chiangmaicharlies]

Why do you masquerade under a FULHAM FC banner?

[annabel]

And if they were overweight where was the professionalism of the operators ...??? Sorry can't accommodate you or sometihing like that ?? Or excuse us for a moment but we have to adjust the seat...?

Sad story. It is especially tragic when you hear of accidents when people are on holiday. I expect the seat should not have tilted had it been fastened properly.

I agree! But why do I get this feeling in my gut that both of these people were very much overweight?

[annabel]

And yes, why in the first place do people encourage these tourist traps that harm these poor elephants...?? There are a few Conservation Elephant camps that are totally different to these tourist traps where you are not allowed to ride the elepahants.... You can feed them, learn about them and even bathe them.. BUT YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO RIDE THEM .!! Khun Lek's camp at Elephant Nature Camp in Mae Rim is one of them and she also has an Elephant hospital in Lampang where she has rescued so many Elephants who got their legs blown off on land mines and has miraculously managed to make prothesis's for them to save them .. Patara is another eample of great Elephant care and here you can ride the Elephants but bareback only and with a mahout by your side at all times .... these tourist traps need to be closed as they do not help or do any good for these wonderful creatures .... send them to Khun Lek or to Patara or even Baan Chang

[F4UCorsair]

Cowslip, I am not saying 20 degrees, or any figure, is safe and more is not. What I am saying is that on the 'facts' as reported, the wife lunged at the husband and the both went over the side as a consequence. I'm not being dogmatic about the position as you are. I do have some knowledge of how the law works, having studied law at university for three years before going flying for a living. That was 30+ years ago but principles of law don't change. What I am saying is that because the seat moved, that does not, in itself, dictate how the poor woman met her end. Even a not very smart barrister would punch holes in that proposition in the first five minutes.

I am not suggesting, as you are the opposite, that I am right and you are wrong, but I don't think any claim for compensation would be likely to get very far, even in a western country.

You are obviously far too uncritical when it comes to reading the media - there is no "report" as yet. Your ideas are based on mistaken assumptions...and it would see you either haven't read or don't understand my posts.

Cowslip, I have read and understand your posts, not difficult because they are rather simplistic, and you make reference to 'common sense'. You need only to walk down the street to know that 90% of people have none .

The 'report' to which I refer is that in the opening post, and it seems that is from the Nation newspaper. It is a newspaper report. I made no reference to any other report, e.g., police or coronial, so perhaps it is you who doesn't understand.

This issue has obviously become adversarial for you, so I will bow out. I wouldn't want you to become overexcited and have a heart attack. I would hate to be your wife or girl friend with an overbearing 'I am always right' attitude such as yours.

KKK, the only reason insurance companies settle out of court is to avoid legal costs in what is a case they feel, on advice, that they would inevitably lose. It's not as simple as somebody feeling they've been wronged, submitting a claim and being paid. The law is essentially about precedents, being established, and being over turned. Lawyers in a case such as this would look for similar 'accidents', how they played out, the amount of damages if negligence was proved, and an assessment would be made on whether it would be worth going to court.

Newsweird, once again, the loose seat cannot automatically be blamed as the cause of death unless it turned to a point where it actually evicted the people. We don't know that from the article/report (there's that word again cowslip). That the seat slipped can't necessarily blamed on poorly trained staff. It could, for example, have been due to faulty equipment. There is not enough in the report (Nation report) to determine anything in any detail. Recommendations to prevent future falls will come as a result of a coronial enquiry if one is held. If this went to court, a pivotal part of the case would be this: If the woman hadn't lunged/jumped to her husband, would the tilting of the seat alone have cause the people to be thrown out?

I find it astounding that there are so many who currently live in Thailand who seem to want to do nothing but pour <deleted> on everything Thai. You have choices.

Edited December 1, 2011 by F4UCorsair

[KKK]

KKK, the only reason insurance companies settle out of court is to avoid legal costs in what is a case they feel, on advice, that they would inevitably lose.

And in this case that is probably what would happen if it had occurred in the west.....which is the opposite of what you had said originally.....

I would doubt that the elephant, the mahout, the tour operator has any kind of insurance to cover themselves for any responsibility in such a tragic accident as this. That only leaves the tourists own travel insurance, if they had any.

[KKK]

That the seat slipped can't necessarily blamed on poorly trained staff. It could, for example, have been due to faulty equipment.

But isn't it the responsibility of the staff, poorly trained or not, to ensure that equipment is in good condition. If it was a manufacturing fault that the staff could not have seen then the manufacturers should take responsibility. Just because an inanimate object may have been the cause does not relieve responsibility from a human.

I find it astounding that there are so many who currently live in Thailand who seem to want to do nothing but pour <deleted> on everything Thai.

Now you know that is not the case. I would have expected better than that from you....

You have choices.

Oh no..not the get out if you can't take it anymore brigade......REALLY

[KKK]

And yes, why in the first place do people encourage these tourist traps that harm these poor elephants...?? There are a few Conservation Elephant camps that are totally different to these tourist traps where you are not allowed to ride the elepahants.... You can feed them, learn about them and even bathe them.. BUT YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO RIDE THEM .!! Khun Lek's camp at Elephant Nature Camp in Mae Rim is one of them and she also has an Elephant hospital in Lampang where she has rescued so many Elephants who got their legs blown off on land mines and has miraculously managed to make prothesis's for them to save them .. Patara is another eample of great Elephant care and here you can ride the Elephants but bareback only and with a mahout by your side at all times .... these tourist traps need to be closed as they do not help or do any good for these wonderful creatures .... send them to Khun Lek or to Patara or even Baan Chang

I'm not saying you are wrong but how do we know whether the elephant is happy to carry us as a passenger or not. After all we can't talk to them about it can we. Many animals are in fact more contented when they have work to do. Ok some of those are bred specially for that purpose. This is not the case with elephants but most are born in captivity and have no knowledge of their natural environment. Where do you draw the line with an elephant? Do you not allow riding but allow them to be used in logging. Where has an elephant said it is OK for us to swim and bathe with them but not ride them. Do you not think that at some time in an elephant's life he/she probably thinks 'heh, leave me alone, I'm old enough to bath myself'. Do you not even allow them any of that instead keeping them chained up where they walk round and round in circles bored out of their minds. Probably the best would be to release them back into their natural environment where they occupy themselves foraging for food and taking care of their herd and young. But in this world of 7 billion I doubt that we have the space. Rouge/wild elephants can be a big problem to human habitation especially if in musk.

I used to visit one of the elephant camps outside of Pattaya on a regular basis with my then preteen son. We don't go there anymore since he has grown up. We would just buy some bananas and feed the elephants. We never rode one. I certainly did not notice any abuse .. I did not witness any unnecessary prodding, poking, hitting of the animals. I did not see any sores or other forms of wounds that would have lead me to believe the elephants were being mistreated. What I did notice was these great beasts going about the business of earning their keep, food, shelter, medical care etc.

To put a poodle in a dress and keep it locked up in a high rise condo where it is overly pampered, kissed and cuddled by some aging spinster hag is way more abusive then anything I've noticed in regard to elephants.

[KKK]

Continuing from my previous post.......

And if elephant riding is so bad as you seem to contend what about the millions of horses that are ridden and raced each day!

From some research I've just done..it is not really the riding of elephants that seems to be objected to but the training that the elephant has to endure before it will allow a person on its back. If what I've read is true then I might tend to agree that riding on an elephants back is not so good. The same could also be said of horses ... and I have seen the torture that a horse is subjected to before it may allow someone to ride it.

Edited December 1, 2011 by KKK

[F4UCorsair]

KKK, I'll post one more time in response. When a thread becomes adversarial, there is no point in continuing. I can only make the same points over and over. As I said, I did study law for three years, and whilst it's a long time ago, I retain the ability to think through a case, and this is not an open and shut case of a seat problem.

In response to the post quoting a retired judge, he may be assuming that the seat rotated sufficiently far to pitch the occupants out, and we don't know that is what happened from the report in The nation and quoted in post # 1.

I've just had coffee with a practising barrister friend, showed her this thread, and her view is similar to mine, not enough information, but it's not a simplistic case of somebody being killed because the seat moved and making a claim that will be automatically met by the insurance company. It is not the opposite of what I originally said. I maintain that on the 'facts' as reported by The Nation and posted here, that it's almost impossible to make a call, but it's not as simple as the seat rotating.

Faulty equipment, whilst the responsibility of the operators, cannot be exhaustive. By their very nature, parts wear out, break, fail, and not all could be foreseen by the staff. Mistakes are made even by highly trained, experienced staff, and it doesn't necessarily make them incompetent or to blame under the law. By way of an example, few people know the difference between not guilty and innocent but there is a vast difference.

Compare a seat rotating, say, 20 degrees, with the elephant stepping in a hole/ditch and the whole animal causing the seat to rotate to the same angle? I don't need to go into any more detail.

On a completely different tack, I have seen cruelty to elephants a training camp north of Chiang Mai, a mahout belting the animal just above the foot with his hook. It was obviously hurting because the animal was reacting with every hit, and I don't like cruelty to animals in any form by anybody. I count parading an elephant through city streets to have tourists feed it bananas as cruelty, incidentally.

Edited December 2, 2011 by F4UCorsair

[KKK]

Faulty equipment, whilst the responsibility of the operators, cannot be exhaustive. By their very nature, parts wear out, break, fail, and not all could be foreseen by the staff. Mistakes are made even by highly trained, experienced staff, and it doesn't necessarily make them incompetent or to blame under the law.

Your argument may well apply here in Thailand but I very much doubt it would in the west.....Yes parts wear out and fail but that is why you have regular inspections and maintenance programs. And yes even those do not always cover all eventualities...I never said they did. But as I've always said the operator/owner of the equipment or whatever it was that caused the accident would be insured and that insurance company would pay out. It is not just a matter of law it is a matter of responsibility. You charge somebody for a service..that service causes bodily harm..you have to take responsibility..that is why you have insurance....the insurance would pay....

please go back and read my post #78..you'll see I was talking insurance and not law.....

As a construction engineer in the UK every time we started a new place of construction we arranged masses of insurances to cover third party damages, work accidents etc. These were taken out to limit our responsibilities in case of an accident. A lot of these insurances were required by law. Because we knew in case of an accident we were responsible. We would not run away and try and blame faulty equipment etc. We would stand up and be MEN and take responsibility. But that does not seem to be the case in Thailand...always blame something else and if you can't do that then run away like chicken. And there seems little if any legal requirement for business owners to insure here.

I posed a hypothetical case to the one Thai tour operator who came on this forum to get his opinion. He has yet to reply......

On the elephant thing I agree with you....I understand it is now illegal for mahouts to bring their elephants downtown begging. As far as Pattaya is concerned I don't recall seeing it for maybe 5 years or more....But if you do see abuse who do you report it ot and do they listen....I have failed so far to get anyone to take notice of me when I tell them of the abuse my nieghbor subjects her dogs to. What did YOU do about the incident of abuse YOU witnessed?

Edited December 2, 2011 by KKK

[F4UCorsair]

This will be my last post on this topic.

The only circumstances under which an insurance company would settle out of court would be if their advice was that they would lose in court, not may lose in court, but would lose in court. Even then they could conceivably string the case out for years. Their shareholders are more important than claimants, any time. You only have to see cases where civil action is taken after criminal proceedings have found a person guilty of something. Even then it does not automatically follow that damages are paid, UNLESS the damages are ordered as part of the criminal proceedings.

When a person insures against something, a condition of that policy, be it motor car insurance, through to professional negligence or public liability, is that the insured NEVER admits liability. It's not a case of 'manning up' because if you do, you may well find yourself uninsured because you were in breach of your policy conditions. Check your policy/ies. Insurance companies don't like paying. They're like professional organizations, the Australian Medical Association, for example. They are not there for the good of the public, but their members, which in an insurance company's case, is the shareholders.

Edited December 2, 2011 by F4UCorsair

[KKK]

This will be my last post on this topic.

The only circumstances under which an insurance company would settle out of court would be if their advice was that they would lose in court, not may lose in court, but would lose in court. Even then they could conceivably string the case out for years. Their shareholders are more important than claimants, any time. You only have to see cases where civil action is taken after criminal proceedings have found a person guilty of something. Even then it does not automatically follow that damages are paid, UNLESS the damages are ordered as part of the criminal proceedings.

When a person insures against something, a condition of that policy, be it motor car insurance, through to professional negligence or public liability, is that the insured NEVER admits liability. It's not a case of 'manning up' because if you do, you may well find yourself uninsured because you were in breach of your policy conditions. Check your policy/ies. Insurance companies don't like paying. They're like professional organizations, the Australian Medical Association, for example. They are not there for the good of the public, but their members, which in an insurance company's case, is the shareholders.

I still think that in this case an insurance company would pay out..because no matter what the legal arguments would be the owner/operator of the elephant would have to take some responsibility in case of an accident. Insurance company would then increase its premiums. And I have never mentioned liability as that is a legal issue...I've only ever said responsibility...check your dictionary they are not the same....

The bad publicity that the insurance company would have to take if it refused to payout would far outweigh anything it paid.....

I do not expect you to reply..although it might be nice if you answered my last point about animal abuse.....

Edited December 2, 2011 by KKK

[cowslip]

Cowslip, I am not saying 20 degrees, or any figure, is safe and more is not. What I am saying is that on the 'facts' as reported, the wife lunged at the husband and the both went over the side as a consequence. I'm not being dogmatic about the position as you are. I do have some knowledge of how the law works, having studied law at university for three years before going flying for a living. That was 30+ years ago but principles of law don't change. What I am saying is that because the seat moved, that does not, in itself, dictate how the poor woman met her end. Even a not very smart barrister would punch holes in that proposition in the first five minutes.

I am not suggesting, as you are the opposite, that I am right and you are wrong, but I don't think any claim for compensation would be likely to get very far, even in a western country.

You are obviously far too uncritical when it comes to reading the media - there is no "report" as yet. Your ideas are based on mistaken assumptions...and it would see you either haven't read or don't understand my posts.

Cowslip, I have read and understand your posts, not difficult because they are rather simplistic, and you make reference to 'common sense'. You need only to walk down the street to know that 90% of people have none .

The 'report' to which I refer is that in the opening post, and it seems that is from the Nation newspaper. It is a newspaper report. I made no reference to any other report, e.g., police or coronial, so perhaps it is you who doesn't understand.

This issue has obviously become adversarial for you, so I will bow out. I wouldn't want you to become overexcited and have a heart attack. I would hate to be your wife or girl friend with an overbearing 'I am always right' attitude such as yours.

KKK, the only reason insurance companies settle out of court is to avoid legal costs in what is a case they feel, on advice, that they would inevitably lose. It's not as simple as somebody feeling they've been wronged, submitting a claim and being paid. The law is essentially about precedents, being established, and being over turned. Lawyers in a case such as this would look for similar 'accidents', how they played out, the amount of damages if negligence was proved, and an assessment would be made on whether it would be worth going to court.

Newsweird, once again, the loose seat cannot automatically be blamed as the cause of death unless it turned to a point where it actually evicted the people. We don't know that from the article/report (there's that word again cowslip). That the seat slipped can't necessarily blamed on poorly trained staff. It could, for example, have been due to faulty equipment. There is not enough in the report (Nation report) to determine anything in any detail. Recommendations to prevent future falls will come as a result of a coronial enquiry if one is held. If this went to court, a pivotal part of the case would be this: If the woman hadn't lunged/jumped to her husband, would the tilting of the seat alone have cause the people to be thrown out?

I find it astounding that there are so many who currently live in Thailand who seem to want to do nothing but pour <deleted> on everything Thai. You have choices.

" You need only to walk down the street to know that 90% of people have none . " - QED!

[taninthai]

Still amazes me how some people think these animals aren't abused/tortured they don't need to abuse the adults as they are taken from there mums at a young age tied to a tree and beaten senseless for 3 days it's called breaking the elephants spirit and scars the elephant mentally for life its not a pretty sight , pictures are available on google for those who don't think there is any harm in this.

[KKK]

Still amazes me how some people think these animals aren't abused/tortured they don't need to abuse the adults as they are taken from there mums at a young age tied to a tree and beaten senseless for 3 days it's called breaking the elephants spirit and scars the elephant mentally for life its not a pretty sight , pictures are available on google for those who don't think there is any harm in this.

yes I made some research on this....wasn't aware of it before...see my post 101...but you can't blame most tourists for not knowing ... they need educating ... I've lived in Thailand 30 years and only just found out...my kids all educated in Thai schools know nothing about it...

What I don't quite get is horse breaking...most but not all, of the time it seems to be carried out without abuse. Can't the same methods/techniques be used for an elephant or are they really that different in spirit. Both animals are intelligent so I'd have thought the same technique would work.

Edited December 2, 2011 by KKK

[F4UCorsair]

Posting again but only as requested to answer a question.

What did YOU do about the incident of abuse YOU witnessed?

Sorry KKK, I presume this was the question you asked me to answer?? My not answering was an oversight.

I risked the wrath of the mahout and his hook, walked the 50 metres or so and tore strips off him, verbally, to the cheers of many of the westerners who saw it. He didn't understand the content but he certainly understood the tone, my gestures, and my attitude toward him. I don't think it will make any difference long term, but it immediately made me feel a hell of a lot better, although my blood pressure took a serious hit for a few minutes. The two methods I've seen for training animals are cruelty and food, both, regrettably involving subjugation in different forms.

I've lived in a number of Asian countries over many years, and they don't have the same attitude toward animals that most western countries do. It's sad, and I hate it, but the best thing I can do is not put myself in situations where I witness it. I also contribute to a couple of animal welfare organizations. I see too many organizations such as zoos, which I will never visit, hiding behind the mantra of 'captive breeding programs', but it seems few animals born to such programs are released, and more likely sold or traded to other zoos for public display so organizations can make money and CEO's suck fat salaries and bonuses out of them.

I think the methods of training are probably more race related KKK. I saw horses being broken as a kid in western Queensland, and cruelty was a part of it, just as killing cattle didn't first require stunning back then, but I think we've evolved here, largely because of the activities of animal rights organizations.

Recent publicity around Indonesian abattoirs cruelly killing cattle imported from Australia, in spite of education programs, shows that they place a different value on animal life from what we do, and before anybody accuses me of being racist, I'm not. I saw the same when living in Japan where fish are filleted whilst alive so 'toxins aren't released into the flesh' so making it less tasty. I would have thought that subjecting an animal to terrible pain, rather than a quick death, would be more likely to release toxins??

Edited December 2, 2011 by F4UCorsair

[KKK]

Posting again but only as requested to answer a question.

What did YOU do about the incident of abuse YOU witnessed?

Sorry KKK, I presume this was the question you asked me to answer?? My not answering was an oversight.

I risked the wrath of the mahout and his hook, walked the 50 metres or so and tore strips off him, verbally, to the cheers of many of the westerners who saw it. He didn't understand the content but he certainly understood the tone, my gestures, and my attitude toward him. I don't think it will make any difference long term, but it immediately made me feel a hell of a lot better, although my blood pressure took a serious hit for a few minutes. The two methods I've seen for training animals are cruelty and food, both, regrettably involving subjugation in different forms.

I've lived in a number of Asian countries over many years, and they don't have the same attitude toward animals that most western countries do. It's sad, and I hate it, but the best thing I can do is not put myself in situations where I witness it. I also contribute to a couple of animal welfare organizations. I see too many organizations such as zoos, which I will never visit, hiding behind the mantra of 'captive breeding programs', but it seems few animals born to such programs are released, and more likely sold or traded to other zoos for public display so organizations can make money and CEO's suck fat salaries and bonuses out of them.

I think the methods of training are probably more race related KKK. I saw horses being broken as a kid in western Queensland, and cruelty was a part of it, just as killing cattle didn't first require stunning back then, but I think we've evolved here, largely because of the activities of animal rights organizations.

Recent publicity around Indonesian abattoirs cruelly killing cattle imported from Australia, in spite of education programs, shows that they place a different value on animal life from what we do, and before anybody accuses me of being racist, I'm not. I saw the same when living in Japan where fish are filleted whilst alive so 'toxins aren't released into the flesh' so making it less tasty. I would have thought that subjecting an animal to terrible pain, rather than a quick death, would be more likely to release toxins??

Thank you for finding the time to reply. You got the right question. I commend you 'attacking' the mahout and generally agree with you on most of the other points you made. I'm honestly ashamed of myself in not knowing the abuse that an elephant goes through so that it can be ridden. But elephant riding still seems to be widely available in Thailand; sometimes with a seat sometimes bareback. Not sure which way is better or if either of them can be called OK. My only hope is that those places that do offer elephant riding do train their elephants in a non-abusive way. I would think that current non-abusive methods of training horses would probably work but I'm no expert. If the only way is the awful method of 3 days of beatings that apparently can be found on google videos, I couldn't bring myself to watch it, then elephant riding should be banned. I will certainly avoid it and advise friends/family to do the same.

Problem is that we tend to only see the juicy steak on the plate waiting be be consumed and don't think of all the things that happened to get it there.Education, education, education, the key to any society that wants to call itself civilised.

Edited December 2, 2011 by KKK

[KKK]

two types of elephant seats, howdah or houdah sometimes also called sedan

The type most often used in Thailand...

and

the type I've seen in India and Nepal

you decide which you think is safer......

Edited December 2, 2011 by KKK

[cowslip]

Still amazes me how some people think these animals aren't abused/tortured they don't need to abuse the adults as they are taken from there mums at a young age tied to a tree and beaten senseless for 3 days it's called breaking the elephants spirit and scars the elephant mentally for life its not a pretty sight , pictures are available on google for those who don't think there is any harm in this.

I believe that the situation is different for domesticated elephants - in that wild and domesticated require different sorts of "breaking"

however the whole situation with elephants is worse than deplorable.

Firstly Thailand had a surfiet of unemployed elephants and nowhere to keep them.

This resulted in the "owners" hiring them out of people who drag them round the streets....they are NOT mahouts or anything so dignified.

THen as this seems profitable the breeding of animals has continued especially as babies earn more money.

After this it was found that Burma is a source of cheaper elephants - and THESE are captured from the wild - broken in a most inhuman way - and then smuggled into Thailand.

It isn't just tourist who sponsor this cruel trade - or trades - but Thai people will flock to an elephant that is dragged around their town in the evening - apparently totally oblivious to the terrible history that led to its being there.

THis UTTER lack of concern by the "operators" for want of a better word- spills over in the general attitude to the tourists who are naively beguiled by the site of these wondrous beasts. As far as they are concerned the tourist is just there to have his money taken - if he falls offf and breaks his neck then "som nam na" - and the cover-up begins........

[cowslip]

Continuing from my previous post.......

And if elephant riding is so bad as you seem to contend what about the millions of horses that are ridden and raced each day!

From some research I've just done..it is not really the riding of elephants that seems to be objected to but the training that the elephant has to endure before it will allow a person on its back. If what I've read is true then I might tend to agree that riding on an elephants back is not so good. The same could also be said of horses ... and I have seen the torture that a horse is subjected to before it may allow someone to ride it.

Actually I've been present on many occasions when horses are saddle-trained and no abuse or force is needed - but these are domesticated animals born on a farm.....

I"m not sure but I'd wager that elephants are not really a domesticated species and as such have a different set of problems.

[KKK]

Cowslip...you can't seem to make up your mind....

I believe that the situation is different for domesticated elephants - in that wild and domesticated require different sorts of "breaking"

I"m not sure but I'd wager that elephants are not really a domesticated species and as such have a different set of problems.

Anyway the way I see it is like this:

Some but not all elephants have been abused or mistreated. I've no idea on the percentage. Trouble is how can we tell. I don't think we can, so should we then have nothing to with elephants at all, not ride them, not bathe with them, not feed them in case one of them happens to have been an abused one and we could then be seen as "supporting" that abuse. There maybe some elephant camps that say they don't or never have abused their elephants but we only have their word on that. Without proper regulation, licensing and regular checks being made by some 'authoritative' agency we really can't be sure.And if we stay away from them all we end up with more 'unemployed', as cowslip puts it, elephants creating even more of a problem....Doesn't seem to be a solution does there...well I can't think of one....

Edited December 3, 2011 by KKK

[wilsonf]

Once again those that are know all know nothings on this site speculate and proffer suggestions of blame, or the possibility of others escaping blame.<BR><BR>Sadly a woman has lost her life, whatever the circumstances, her husband will no doubt be distraught at his loss, once again no matter what the circumstances of her death, or whether or not it was as a result of him falling upon her, and also their extended family, and possibly children will be devastated.<BR><BR>My sympathies are extended to them all,<BR><BR>When making my reply I noticed that three members and sixty eight guests were reading the topic, given the quality of the posts so far any of those guests could be forgiven for assuming that the majority of members on Thai Visa Forum who contribute to these items are idiots. Its about time that you moderators got your act together and took matters in hand, speculation without anything to back it up should be regarded as 'off topic' and deleted, this would certainly reduce the number of irrelevant posts.

[x5david]

<br />

<br />

<br />

<br />No, what caused the accident was a poorly fastened seating...<br />

<br />Seconded. Did they really blame the husband? <br /><br />The re-assignment of blame and in-ability to take any responsibility here whatsoever knows no bounds.<br /><br />Amazing Thailand yet again. <br /><br />RIP and condolences.<br />

<br /><br />The report doesn't apportion blame; it just states what happened. <b>You lot are too paranoid. </b><br /><br /><br /><br />

<br /><br />more likely you haven't been here long enough to find out.<br /><br /><br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Have to agree with that, anyone who has lived here for any reasonable time soon finds out Thais will always blame a farang when something goes wrong even if it is clearly the fault of a Thai....

[elektrified]

No, what caused the accident was a poorly fastened seating...

As usual, safety is always at the bottom of the list.

[grumpyoldman]

x5David, you see a health professional regarding that xenophobia?

[techboy]

No, what caused the accident was a poorly fastened seating...

Seconded. Did they really blame the husband?

The re-assignment of blame and in-ability to take any responsibility here whatsoever knows no bounds.

Amazing Thailand yet again.

RIP and condolences.

The report doesn't apportion blame; it just states what happened. You lot are too paranoid.

Not paranoid. Just aggressively ignorant. The responses were nothing more than unreasonable assumptions and defamatory statements that were made without anything near to appropriate details. In another carnation this mentality would have never missed a witch burning.

[h5kaf]

Condolences to the husband and the whole family of the poor woman. RIP.

As with every such post, I can only note with disgust the various comments... Thai bashing in 90% of all posts... "Thai to be blamed for accident".... "would be treated differently if it would be a Thai"... "would be treated differently in Europe"... "no money to be made, case closed"....

I'd like to ask a question to the Admins: Why do you allow comments on such "news" items? You know what will be coming... you could as well add the standard blaming comments yourself and close the item for comments.... did not see a single comment that add value to the post... probably mine included...

If the Admins did as you suggest there would be no discussion at all on this site. Many of us are constantly amazed and amused at the lengths posters will go to in order to rubbish some aspect of Thai society. To take away the ability to moan and groan is akin to taking away the 'life blood' of many who post here. Feel sorry for them. Thailand is corrupt, we all know that, but we still live here and enjoy life - deal with it. Tourists know this as well, for its not like Thai culture is a massive secret on the internet etc.

My condolences to the family of this poor lady who seems to have been the subject of a tragic accident. R.I.P.

[Markaew]

No, what caused the accident was a poorly fastened seating...

Seconded. Did they really blame the husband?

The re-assignment of blame and in-ability to take any responsibility here whatsoever knows no bounds.

Amazing Thailand yet again.

RIP and condolences.

The report doesn't apportion blame; it just states what happened. You lot are too paranoid.

No non Thai can be too paranoid here.

Absolutely! My motto has always been "Only the paranoid survive!"

[Markaew]

Negligent though the tour company was, this seems to me a freak tragic accident, your chances of dying from falling from 3 meters is pretty low, even when someone else lands on top of you.

Agreed, but it also depends on how a falling person hits the ground, if part of the head hits the ground first without any hand or arm protection, then fatality can occur from a very short fall.

Moreover, the landing of a person on top of one's body from about a 5 meter hight (depending on body weight) will do no more than breaking a few rib bones, particular in females.

There are of course always other possibilities, in this case for instance ... her husband (of heavy weight or not) could have fallen down on parts of his wife's body with bended elbows, and /or bended knees, and that could have caused fatality.

A very shocking event indeed.

Age should be taken into account as well.