snorkster Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 My thai wife and I have two boys. We want a girl, and we're both 39, she feel she's old and doesnt want to go through pregnancy again. It was difficult for her to get pregnant last time anyway, took us a long time with fertility assistance to finally manage it. So anyway now we're thinking of adopting a child. It specifically should be a girl, because we want a daughter. We already have 2 boys. Does anyone have experience with this? We are a little on the older side, which is a minus for the adoption agencies, but on the other hand my income is very good and my wife also has a good professional position with a quite good salary, for a thai person, so I guess those are pluses. We dont necessarily want a baby, an older child up to 4 or maybe even 5 would be ok. I guess even older than that theoretically would be OK but it would be a lot more difficult to establish the parent/child atmosphere with a child who's already older than that and not used to us. I was thinking it may be better to try to adopt a chinese girl. The reason for this is, in China, people sadly, routinely discard perfectly normal, healthy girls because they simply don't want them. In Thailand I would guess more often children are discarded because of actual problems/issues with them. I guess I feel like a Chinese baby would be more likely to be healthy without major problems. However, it looks like there's a 5-year wait period for a Chinese girl nowadays. The Chinese government seems to feel it's a stain on their national pride to have so many babies and children needing adoption by foreigners and have clamped down on allowing children to be adopted, preferring to save their national face while letting the orphanages fill up. We want an Asian child. Does anyone have experience with this? Have any advice to share? Thanks - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkster Posted January 15, 2012 Author Share Posted January 15, 2012 Also if anyone has done this in Thailand, are there any particular agencies to recommend? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TerryLH Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 Why don't you contact an orphanage and get first hand info? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregb Posted January 15, 2012 Share Posted January 15, 2012 (edited) First you should move this to the Family and Children's forum where this topic has previously been discussed and where you are likely to receive more knowledgeable replies. Because you are a foreigner, this will be an international adoption, and must pass the laws of both your home country and Thailand. You should start by contacting your embassy and finding out what the procedure is for adoption in your country. It will likely be necessary for you to start the procedure in your country of citizenship, who will then coordinate with an agency in Thailand to do all the appropriate home visits. Also be aware that the DSDW (http://www.adoption....go.th/home.html) has on many previous occasions suspended the processing of inter country adoptions (except for special needs children) due to exceedingly long waiting lists of Thai parents. You will need to find out from them the current status on this, and I do not know whether the fact that you are currently resident in Thailand changes their perspective. Whether you adopt from Thailand or China, you need to start by contacting your embassy to find out where to begin. Edit: If you happen to be American, I would recommend starting your search for a child with http://www.holtinternational.org/. Their Thai office (Holt Sahathai) is on On Nut. I know other countries also tend to use the Thai Red Cross as an agent for international adoptions, but your embassy should be able to direct you. Edited January 15, 2012 by gregb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkster Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) I started out with a forums search for the term "Adoption" but the top results are all irrelevant hits. Will start a new thread in that other forum. Thanks. Edited January 16, 2012 by snorkster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkster Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 Why don't you contact an orphanage and get first hand info? Yes, this is something we have already done and is one step we have engaged in to get some information. Posting here is another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7by7 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 First you should move this to the Family and Children's forum where this topic has previously been discussed and where you are likely to receive more knowledgeable replies. Will start a new thread in that other forum. Thanks. Topics merged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goinghomesoon Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Are you overseas or in Thailand? If in Thailand you need to approach DSDW. I highly recommend going to their office, as it can be hard to get them to answer the phone and they almost never respond to emails. See my previous posts on the actual adoption process, as this has not changed. There is a support group that meets monthly in Bangkok, for families awaiting a child and those who have their child home. The current wait for expat couples in Thailand is currently about 3 years. As others have already pointed out, DSDW sometimes stops taking new applications for months/years at a time while they work on their existing pile of applications. You need to speak to them directly to find out if applications are being accepted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steady Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Looking at the link provided by GregB the DSDW splits between what it calls local adoptions, where the adoptive parents (and one assumes at least one foreigner) is living in Thailand and Intercountry adoptions, where the adoptive parents are elsewhere. Does the local adoption have as many hoops to jump through as the intercountry, when a foreigner is involved? The website is a very good first point of contact and then sort of dries up when a little more information is required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkster Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) I think we'll go in to the DSDW office and discuss our situation with them. We live in thailand. Hopefully with one thai parent involved, the wait won't be as long as 3 years, but even if so, it's better to get on the list sooner rather than later. I'm curious to hear from anyone who's gone through the process and adopted a thai child, how the process was for them and any advice they might have to offer. That's really my main idea posting this thread, to hear from people who've done it, if they have any insight or advice to offer. Edited January 16, 2012 by snorkster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkster Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 I'm curious about this 3-year wait list thing for expat couples. We'll see what the DSDW says when we go in there. However, my wife likes to visit a certain Thai orphanage on buddhist holidays and at other times, we bring by some small gifts and candy for the children. They sure do seem to have lots of kids there. I wonder if the process couldnt be accelerated a bit, why a 3-year wait period when there are so many children that need adoption now? The orphanage told us that most of the kids actually do have parents, but there are some problems at home that cause them to need to live in the orphanage for a while. Only a minority of them are considered finally abandoned, or have unknown or deceased parents. So that may explain why there are so many children in the orphanages, but a long wait period for adopting a child. At any rate, the person we spoke with last time said she wasn't the best person at that orphanage to talk to about adoption, recommended someone else. But I guess the top-down approach may be better, DSDW. We can mention to them that my wife is fairly well known to a certain orphanage, and maybe they would prefer to look there first. But if the legal route would wind up being through DSDW in any event, we'll drop by there and talk to them, see what they say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ludditeman Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Why not approach one of her family, most Thai families are happy to 'off-load' one of their children on a relative. The adoption process is much easier if you are related. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You migth still want to consider n international adoption. It takes longer, but it will be recognised by your own country. A purely Thai adoptioon in all likelyhood not. Get competent advise about the diferences. Especially if you ever plan to return to your home country to live. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steady Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 You migth still want to consider n international adoption. It takes longer, but it will be recognised by your own country. A purely Thai adoptioon in all likelyhood not. Get competent advise about the diferences. Especially if you ever plan to return to your home country to live. That's actually my situation. We have our neice living with us for about 2 years and she has been given 2 visitor's visas in the last 2 years to visit the UK. Our children have UK passports but now we are looking into returning to live in the UK. Wife should have no problem with settlement visa but people at VFS mentioned to the wife that we could not get a settlement visa for our niece, even though we have paperwork from her mother from the local amphur office giving us all custodial rights. Lady at VFS, the UK goverment's agents, also thought that we would have no problem getting the neice a student's visa but I thought that with that visa we would have to pay for her education and medical costs if anything happens in the UK. And more importantly it has to be renewed every so often, leaving us open to the whims of buraucracy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkster Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 My wife called DSDW. She explained our situation, the person on the phone said we could apply (19 forms) and specify our preferences for age, gender, and special needs or not, and that they estimate it would take about 1 year to match us with a child. My wife indicated that she was thai and I was american. She didnt specifically discuss the implications of nationality, but they asked what our nationalities were, so I guess it is faster if one person is Thai, since a wait time of 3 years has been estimated in this thread for pure expat couples. Interesting question was raised above about the legal implications of a purely Thai adoption, Mario2008 mentioned that a purely thai adoption might not be recognized in the US. I will consult an attorney about that. As long as there dont appear to be issues getting the adoption recognized in the US, then I think we will go in to DSDW and fill out the application. Thanks for any advice and I'll post any info I get after investigating. Also if anyone has actually done this and has any experience or advice to share, I'd be interested in hearing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregb Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Since you are American I can tell you with 100% certainty you absolutely MUST speak with the embassy before you go too far down this road. They are extremely helpful and will explain what needs to happen in order for the child to receive citizenship. Talk to a lawyer by all means if you have one your trust, but absolutely drop an email to [email protected]. Tell them that you live in Thailand and are interested in adopting a Thai child through the DSDW. Then ask them what procedure you will need to follow to make sure the child receives citizenship. Their choice then to give you info by email or ask you to make an appointment to come in and speak with them. Most adoptions by Americans do go through Holt International, but that is not required and you can use anyone as long as the appropriate steps are followed. The only advantage with Holt is that they know all these steps and make it easy for you. For some people that is worth the cost. I have only second hand information in this area so I don't want to give you misleading information. But the embassy will give you 100% accurate information and absolutely free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goinghomesoon Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 My Thai spouse and I applied at DSDW 2 years 4 months ago and were told the waiting period would be 12-18 months. It quickly became clear after our application was lodged that this was not the case, and our social worker has admitted that waiting times have been getting longer and longer for the past 3-4 years. I am referring here to the international adoption side of things, as the domestic Thai option was not open to us due to my country's visa rules. Our DSDW social worker advised us when we applied that couples with 1 Thai spouse do not get special consideration - you go into the queue with everyone else. This was reconfirmed by her supervisor when we visited DSDW in August 2011 to provide them with some updated documents and we asked again, hoping we might get a different answer. GregB is right, you need to talk to your embassy to see if you are required to adopt via a particular pathway. A group of parents that have already adopted, and/or are waiting to adopt, meet every month in Bangkok, you can get details from the BAMBI website. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkster Posted January 20, 2012 Author Share Posted January 20, 2012 I do think adoption is a more ethical choice, overall, and on that basis theoretically would like to do it. However if it proves to be too daunting (and we're already almost 40, so a wait of several years will just make us older, which is less good for the child), maybe we'll wind up having another child the natural way. Anyway thanks for the advice, I will check out the website you mention, Goinghomesoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soboringtochooseaname Posted January 22, 2012 Share Posted January 22, 2012 Can anyone simply reply if it's easy, fast and cheap to adopt a child in Thailand when you are a Thai-farang couple living in Thailand and not interested in any international thing. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiodad Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I can share my experience with Thai adoption. It is not exactly the same, but may help. My wife and I are both American and have adopted three children. In 1997, we adopted a boy from China at age 15 months. He is now 15. In 2003, we adopted a girl from China at age 19 months. She is now 10. In 2008, we adopted a girl from Thailand at age 10 years. She is now 14. All three adoptions went through Holt. we found the Holt staff very helpful. In each adoption, something went wrong with paperwork and the staff was able to clear things up quickly and painlessly.Writing as a farang who has never lived in Thailand, having people by my side while navigating the process was invaluable. I was 54 when we did the Thai adoption. From my point of view, your age is not a problem. Aside from the paperwork issues, I think the biggest issue for you and your wife (and possibly your children) to work out is the kind of child you are looking for. When we first met with Holt, we were asked to complete a survey about our intended child. In addition to sex preference, you must consider whether you want a younger child (under 2 years) or a waiting child (over 2). In general, the wait time is less for an older child. In our Thai adoption case, we decided that we didn't want to deal with diapers anymore, so we looked for an older child. You must also consider if you might adopt a child with a disability. BTW, an older child is considered special needs because of the emotional trauma involved with leaving her family and starting a new life. The paperwork issues are big at the beginning, but are quickly forgotten once you and your wife begin the real task of bringing a new chid into your family and raising her as your own. We have found the experience to be incredibly difficult and incredibly rewarding. The best way to learn about adoption is to talk to families who have done it. There is a group on Facebook called "Thailand adoption". There are over 200 members from all over the world who are raising children adopted from Thailand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkster Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 Ohio dad, thanks so much for sharing your experience. Wonderful to hear about your family of three adopted children. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snorkster Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 Does anyone have an idea of how most children come to need adoption in Thailand? Are the parents usually deceased, or the baby abandoned, or are they often taken away due to a bad home environment? Some thai friends have remarked that if we adopt a child, there may be parents out there who decide they want the child back. In China, many girls have historically been abandoned as the parents wanted a boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ohiodad Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 In our case, our daughter's biological mother has spent most of her life in prison and her father is unknown. When our daughter was 10, the bio mom's parental rights were terminated. It is highly unlikely that the bio mom would be able to sue for our daughter's return. It is not something we worry about. My wife and I are members of several internet adoption forums. I cannot recall any case in the last 15 years in which an international adoption was voided because a birth parent lodged a complaint. (Sometimes these adoptions don't work out, but it is not because of the biological parents.) Our daughter has a younger half-sister who is HIV positive. She was adopted by a different family in the US. Our two Chinese children came to us as toddlers and they have no memories of life in China. The situation for our Thai daughter is very different. In spite of her personal difficulties, she has very strong, positive feelings about Thailand and all things Thai. As I suggested in my earlier post, the bigger issue is how you will go about making this child become a part of your family. Prior to adopting, we were required to meet with a social worker. In all of our cases, a huge part of the interview was spent on teaching us about emotional bonding between parent and child. At the time, I thought it was kind of stupid, but I now understand that just getting your new child to become part of your family is a huge undertaking and is not always automatic. Before we adopted our Thai daughter, Holt had me interview parents who took on the hard cases. Sometimes it just doesn't work out and the child becomes re-institutionalized. In others, the stress caused divorce. That is why I suggest that you examine why you are considering adoption and think about the effects it may have on the other family members (including grandparents). The real risks involve developing a relationship beetween you and your child, not problems from the outside. Once you are comfortable with the great unknowns, it will become easier to find a program that will find the right child for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Does anyone have an idea of how most children come to need adoption in Thailand? Are the parents usually deceased, or the baby abandoned, or are they often taken away due to a bad home environment? Some thai friends have remarked that if we adopt a child, there may be parents out there who decide they want the child back. In China, many girls have historically been abandoned as the parents wanted a boy. With an adoption in Thailand, the parents of the child must give permission. If they don't give permission, a judge can give permission instead. Adoption means that you now become the legal parent of the child, instead of the natural parents. They can not demand the child back or anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goinghomesoon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Does anyone have an idea of how most children come to need adoption in Thailand? Are the parents usually deceased, or the baby abandoned, or are they often taken away due to a bad home environment? Some thai friends have remarked that if we adopt a child, there may be parents out there who decide they want the child back. In China, many girls have historically been abandoned as the parents wanted a boy. With an adoption in Thailand, the parents of the child must give permission. If they don't give permission, a judge can give permission instead. Adoption means that you now become the legal parent of the child, instead of the natural parents. They can not demand the child back or anything. While that's the case with international adoptions Mario, do you know if that is the case with domestic 'Thai-style' adoptions? My understanding was that the local adoptions do not remove all parental responsibilities and that this is the reason some countries won't recognise them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goinghomesoon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 My wife called DSDW. She explained our situation, the person on the phone said we could apply (19 forms) and specify our preferences for age, gender, and special needs or not, and that they estimate it would take about 1 year to match us with a child. My wife indicated that she was thai and I was american. She didnt specifically discuss the implications of nationality, but they asked what our nationalities were, so I guess it is faster if one person is Thai, since a wait time of 3 years has been estimated in this thread for pure expat couples. Interesting question was raised above about the legal implications of a purely Thai adoption, Mario2008 mentioned that a purely thai adoption might not be recognized in the US. I will consult an attorney about that. As long as there dont appear to be issues getting the adoption recognized in the US, then I think we will go in to DSDW and fill out the application. Thanks for any advice and I'll post any info I get after investigating. Also if anyone has actually done this and has any experience or advice to share, I'd be interested in hearing it. Snorkster, the form is available online http://www.adoptinginthailand.com/user/image/dsdwapplication.pdf and the requirements (and list of supporting documents) is here http://www.adoption.dsdw.go.th/adoption-03-01-e.html We found the social workers weren't very keen on dealing with us and answering questions until we had all the documents ready to submit. The social worker that is manning the desk on the day you apply is the social worker that will deal with you throughout the entire process, so make sure you get her name and number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Does anyone have an idea of how most children come to need adoption in Thailand? Are the parents usually deceased, or the baby abandoned, or are they often taken away due to a bad home environment? Some thai friends have remarked that if we adopt a child, there may be parents out there who decide they want the child back. In China, many girls have historically been abandoned as the parents wanted a boy. With an adoption in Thailand, the parents of the child must give permission. If they don't give permission, a judge can give permission instead. Adoption means that you now become the legal parent of the child, instead of the natural parents. They can not demand the child back or anything. While that's the case with international adoptions Mario, do you know if that is the case with domestic 'Thai-style' adoptions? My understanding was that the local adoptions do not remove all parental responsibilities and that this is the reason some countries won't recognise them. The meaning of adoption is that someone else than the current legal parent(s) become(s) the legal parent(s) of the person who is adopted. Otherwise it is not an adoption, but someone being placed in your care till that person becomes an adult. It can be that under Thai law a person doesn't completely severe his Thai with his former legal parents. I believe that some countries won't recognize a local adoption because of an international treaty that states that an international adoption must be according to the laws of both countries involved. An adoption of a Thai national by two Thai nationals would be recognised by other countries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goinghomesoon Posted February 11, 2012 Share Posted February 11, 2012 It can be that under Thai law a person doesn't completely severe his Thai with his former legal parents. Yes Mario I think you are right there. I believe a Thai domestic adoption order gives the child new parents but does not fully sever the parental relationship with the birthmother (and father if named on the birth certificate). So in effect a child just gains extra parents. We have a Thai/Swedish friend that adopted domestically as a Thai and then had difficulties taking the child on holidays to Sweden : the Swedes pointed out that the adoption order does not severe the birthmother's relationship. They required the consent of the birthmother before a visa would be issued. Luckily she did give permission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gregb Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Does anyone have an idea of how most children come to need adoption in Thailand? Are the parents usually deceased, or the baby abandoned, or are they often taken away due to a bad home environment? Some thai friends have remarked that if we adopt a child, there may be parents out there who decide they want the child back. In China, many girls have historically been abandoned as the parents wanted a boy. With an adoption in Thailand, the parents of the child must give permission. If they don't give permission, a judge can give permission instead. Adoption means that you now become the legal parent of the child, instead of the natural parents. They can not demand the child back or anything. While that's the case with international adoptions Mario, do you know if that is the case with domestic 'Thai-style' adoptions? My understanding was that the local adoptions do not remove all parental responsibilities and that this is the reason some countries won't recognise them. The registration of a Thai domestic adoption simply states the court docket # that was used to approve the adoption, and that both the birth parents and the adoptive parents have signed their consent to that decree. If the proceedings of that court case decree that the birth mother has no further claim over the child, then that is the law. However, the details of these court proceedings are not made available to the Registrar at the district office. Therefore, it is possible that the judge could simply have ordered a new name be added, or that the birth mother be completely stripped of her parental rights. There is no way to tell from the Registration of Adoption all by itself, and the complete judgement of the court is not usually provided. I don't know if the court case is actually sealed or is accessible to the public. What is certain is that after a Thai domestic adoption only the adoptive parent is allowed to make decisions for the child or choose where the child can reside, so with all parental powers transferred to the adoptive parent it is not clear what role the birth mother could still play, if any. In the case of the US Embassy, as it was explained to me, it is simply that the US has no treaty with Thailand to recognize adoptions. Therefore, any adoption must satisfy the laws of both countries individually, and be approved by the relevant agencies individually in each respective country, including home visits and suitability by a recognized US agent. In order for US citizenship to be transferred to an adoptive child, the adoption must be carried out as specified by the relevant US agencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mario2008 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 The only role the birth parents could continue to play that I can think of is regarding inheritence and such. I think it is more that only an international adoption is recognised, unles it is an adoption by Thai nationals only of a Thai national. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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