Kidnapped American Girl Found In Thailand 5 Years Later

[cowslip]

Misogyny abounds on this one......

[Beetlejuice]

Posted on YouTube in 2008

The video portrays the guy as being public enemy number one. Paedophiles, rapists, murderers, drug dealers and major criminals have received better treatment.

The soft sad music, and all the crap quoted about this guy by the mother does not impress me.

After 5 years caring for his daughter in Thailand, the girl is safe, well and doing fine. That’s enough confirmation for me that proves the poor guy is a suitable father.

Sad for the man, sad for the child. I know what side I`m on.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[SouthernMan3]

. Sheriff Kevin Walsh said he did not know how the FBI tracked them down in Thailand.

a law enforcement sheriff has no idea how to track a kidnapper who has been identified to the authorities ?

first ,they check his passport number in the central database,then they know the last time he flew and into which city

then ,check his atm .credit cards and see where he has been withdrawing cash ,then you have his neighbourhood /areas he frequents (say sukhumvit rd etc )

then you check how many farangs are in rented homes and guesthouses in this area (you cant rent anything anymore without your passport copy and landlord must sent that to immigration ,even if u only stay a night ) ,talk to locals about seeing a man with a little farang girl etc and show pictures of him to all the thais in that vicinity

and you will probably have him arrested within 24 -48hrs

how can a "sheriff" go in the media and say silly things "well,i dont know how ,but they found him etc "

its like homer simpson policework

He didn't say he didn't know how to find a kidnapper.

He said "He didn't know how the FBI trcked them down".

Get your head out of the sand and stop being so critical od U.S. law enforcement and READ the article.

But it is true that if he was not in the LEIN database as a fugitive of justice, it could take be more homework to track him. Not a lot of details here....say, surrounding his passport nor the full story. If his daughter enrolled in school and money was being transferred in and out of american, and one is checking in at immigration, not too hard to track down I wouldn't suppose. Depends on how high priority in the database (NCIC or LEIN networks).

We knlow all that.

Was just stating that you mis quoted him.

Was it his job to find him ?

Certain people do certain things.

No one can do everything.

He doesn't know how the FBI tracked him.

Maybe they just didn't mention it to him.

You are reading way more into this then is necassary.........

[ScubaBuddha]

do you honestly believe there is no records kept by airlines and immigration departments ?

You do understand there are more ways to travel than by air, and that there are about 280 airlines worldwide. There are 196 countries in the world, the majority of which do not even keep computer databases of their visitors. As cobra said, it's still fairly easy to disapear in the world with a little means and preperation.

you fly out of the US ,they know which flight you took to the uk ,you leave the uk for thailand they know that also

Unless you then take a boat, train or bus to any other European country. Fly into Cambodia, land crossing into Thailand and Bob's your uncle. Traceable sure but not as easy as you suggest. No "central database."

if your passport is not used again they can assume youre still in thailand ,just a matter of where but its not easy as it

Are you under the impression that each time a passoport is used that info is somehow beamed back to the passport holders home country?

[ScubaBuddha]

used to be to rent a house ,a thai cannot rent to a farang without sending his passport copy to immigration (thats a crime since about 2 years ago )

And every law is always follwed in Thailand, yes? Particularly procedural ones like reporting your farang tenent to immigration. Thai's generally don't do this as it creates a record of income and could be used against them. Therfore most if not all landlords don't report or grossly under report rental income.

also passports are only valid for 10 years so hes stuck in his final destination sooner or later,good luck getting a new passport from the aerican embassy in bkk when ur wanted by the fbi for kidnapping

Plenty of stories of people staying for years upon years on overstay, sometimes over 20 years. Your right though about getting a new passport though. In fact in the USA about the only thing you can be denied a passport for is lack of child support payment. Even felons on probation can get them.

And although the word "kidnapping" is used, this is actually a non-custodial parental abduction. You could call it a "statutory kidnapping". A fairly common occurance considred a low proirity by law enforrecment when compared to a stranger abduction.

[ScubaBuddha]

Wow, you replied to my post twice. I'm flattered.

Maybe he used cash.

he hasnt been using the cash in his pockets for 5 years

You know this how?

immigration must have issued him and the girl a visa

Incorrect. Americans can enter both Thailand and the UK without a visa.

defend them al you like but it looks like pretty incompetent policework

if my child was kidnapped i wouldnt be happy with taking 5 years to figure out she was taken to thailand

As I mentioned, this was a non-custodial parental abduction. Very common and low priority/low risk for the child when compared to stranger abduction. We don't know the details. For all we know this guy could have taken her to sell her to pedophile rings. It has happened. But 99.9% of the time it's because the abducting parent loves the child and either thinks the child is better off with them, or feel the child is in danger if he/she remains with the other parent. Hell, I think we would all do the same thing if the circumstances were the latter. I am surprised they bothered to track him down at all, as it's a fairly difficult thing to do if he does it right.

[silentnine]

so i wonder if i will be next on the most wanted list !

[spiritrace]

Hmmmm this one smells a bit fishy.....There might be a good reason the father abandoned his life to protect his daughter. It ha been my experience that US courts tend to side with the mother even when the mother is less than reliable as a parent. Fathers seem to be left out of the loop when it comes to divorces. I lost custody because the court said "the children should be with their natural mother".....Did that mean I was not the natural father? The same logic has been applied to many custody cases.

So the guy may have had a good reason for his actions. In the end it is always the children who are hurt the most. The courts don't seem to worry about that.

The courts have been one of the greatest causes of children in the streets, runaways and trafficing.

[Beetlejuice]

Hmmmm this one smells a bit fishy.....There might be a good reason the father abandoned his life to protect his daughter. It ha been my experience that US courts tend to side with the mother even when the mother is less than reliable as a parent. Fathers seem to be left out of the loop when it comes to divorces. I lost custody because the court said "the children should be with their natural mother".....Did that mean I was not the natural father? The same logic has been applied to many custody cases.

So the guy may have had a good reason for his actions. In the end it is always the children who are hurt the most. The courts don't seem to worry about that.

The courts have been one of the greatest causes of children in the streets, runaways and trafficing.

It is exactly the same situation in the United Kingdom.

It is only in extreme cases that the father is given sole custody of his children during a custodial battle with a female partner, even if the father was a committed, decent parent. At most times the father is left high and dry, striped of most of his parental rights and quite often thrown out of the matrimonial home, cast aside, yet still imposed by law to pick up the tab for his ex family.

Mental cruelty is the favorite excuse for divorce used by most women, usually recommended by the lawyers.

I have known cases where an ex wife has brought in a new male partner into the matrimonial home and the ex hubby still has to pay for a mortgage and most of the bills, while little wifey has all the convenience of enjoying the home with her new lover, being totally supported by the social security and having full rights to the children.

If the father receives certain visitation rights, than he has to adhere to strict times of being with his children. If he contravenes these times set by the court, than he faces criminal action, such as in contempt of court and may even be imprisoned in some cases.

Treated lower than a criminal because for some reasons the female partner has decided she no longer wishes to stay in the marriage. This is actually what I was told during the divorce from my first wife in the UK, she no longer wants to stay with me, so that’s a good enough reason for divorce and I am out on a limb, my hard luck.

There should be a review and some radical changes made regarding the custody of children and fathers in Western law. I fail to see the logic of how women are able to use the children as a weapon in order to destroy a male partners life.

So as I said; I’m all for this guy and feel extreme pity for the situation he has been placed in.

Edited March 15, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[californiabeachboy]

whatever happended before , its never good to use a child for personal vendetta specially after a louzy divorce ... not to mention that this little girl needs her mother as well .... I dont know all the details of the story and have no idea about their life but to fleed your country with your kid is never the best solution.

I think these people are farangs.......but in Thailand it is the norm for parents to abuse their children through a vendetta between the adults. Really annoys me because the child is not responsible for their parents' actions but they are the ones that usually suffer. I speak from experience with my ex Thai wife: she was treated like this as a child and off course treated pur child in the same way. He is now undergoing psychological counselling and is beginning to shape up, understand and so on.

I agree with these comments. I am sure he loved his child, but the bottom line is that when he took his child to a foreign country illegally, he was putting his interests ahead of those of the child. Once you abduct a child to a foreign country illegally you start a downward spiral for that child that is difficult (not impossible ) to stop. In my opinion, children need security - the belief that the people in their lives will be there, they have a home, etc. Put the kid first, then decide what to do.

[Nigel1500]

...

Was she a mail order bride he got while he lived in America maybe and like many, once they receive their green card they are off looking for better and richer guys? There has been many documentaries about these types of inccedents and I know we are only speculating now but I'm willing to bet he did the right thing weather it is legal or not by fleeing the country with his daughter.

...

On the evidence before me it appears she was a mail order bride who fell in love with an American prick and after working that out has returned home to become a nurse. There is no evidence to say this is a green card issue or that she's after a richer man. Only a prick would kidnap his own daughter. Unfortunately, they don't make documentaries about mail order brides who have had their hearts broken by having their own child kidnapped. The man belongs in jail and the girl belongs with her mother who, it appears, will be continuing her respectable career as a nurse back in Russia after having discovered that the grass isn't always greener - the hard way!!!

[Macmundi]

Had he had shared custody of the little girl, he wouldn't have had to kidnap her.

[yummypizza]

Had he had shared custody of the little girl, he wouldn't have had to kidnap her.

That's obviously a non thought about comment, you must be a social worker!

[yummypizza]

...

Was she a mail order bride he got while he lived in America maybe and like many, once they receive their green card they are off looking for better and richer guys? There has been many documentaries about these types of inccedents and I know we are only speculating now but I'm willing to bet he did the right thing weather it is legal or not by fleeing the country with his daughter.

...

On the evidence before me it appears she was a mail order bride who fell in love with an American prick and after working that out has returned home to become a nurse. There is no evidence to say this is a green card issue or that she's after a richer man. Only a prick would kidnap his own daughter. Unfortunately, they don't make documentaries about mail order brides who have had their hearts broken by having their own child kidnapped. The man belongs in jail and the girl belongs with her mother who, it appears, will be continuing her respectable career as a nurse back in Russia after having discovered that the grass isn't always greener - the hard way!!!

You sound like a judge making a stupid decision, looking back to my own situation and thinking of the children, i should have done the same, it isn't black and white, women get custody regardless if they are fit mothers or not, the men a treated like second class citizens, the only option to save your child from it being used as a weapon against you is to fight it in the courts and lose, or rescuing your child, against the law, it is not so easy and believe me, this child will suffer immensely as all children do in these matters!

[wana]

do you honestly believe there is no records kept by airlines and immigration departments ?

You do understand there are more ways to travel than by air, and that there are about 280 airlines worldwide. There are 196 countries in the world, the majority of which do not even keep computer databases of their visitors. As cobra said, it's still fairly easy to disapear in the world with a little means and preperation.

you fly out of the US ,they know which flight you took to the uk ,you leave the uk for thailand they know that also

Unless you then take a boat, train or bus to any other European country. Fly into Cambodia, land crossing into Thailand and Bob's your uncle. Traceable sure but not as easy as you suggest. No "central database."

if your passport is not used again they can assume youre still in thailand ,just a matter of where but its not easy as it

Are you under the impression that each time a passoport is used that info is somehow beamed back to the passport holders home country?

you can NOT walk freely in and out of countries like you are suggesting and no authorities can tell you went there

there would be no point in even having passports if the criminals could move like that and were untraceable

try going back and forth to cambodia without a passport and tell us what happens when your embassy has to get you out from jail

[forqalso]

I've taken a boat across the Mekong into Laos and back without having my passport with me. If I could do it as an average tourist, how hard would it be for a criminal?

[yummypizza]

I've taken a boat across the Mekong into Laos and back without having my passport with me. If I could do it as an average tourist, how hard would it be for a criminal?

did you have a kid by your side?

[Beetlejuice]

Had he had shared custody of the little girl, he wouldn't have had to kidnap her.

That's obviously a non thought about comment, you must be a social worker!

I absolutely agree with our Macmundi.

With many of these women it`s winner takes all, total elimination of the male partner from the scene, no compassion or compromise. Why should they? These women have the full support of the law, the do gooder organisations and the State on their side acting as they’re henchmen.

Once the female partner has put the custodial wheels in motion, the guy is powned by the courts right up to the children are 18 years of age, but without hardly any jurisdiction over the upbringing of his kids, with the loss of most of his assets and forcibly imposed into a financial commitment for years after the divorce. It makes how some women in Thailand have cheated their farang husbands appear like chicken feed in comparison.

I knew of an acquaintance in the United States whose wife was having several affairs. One day she changed the locks on they’re apartment, brought in her family as backup and denied her husband access into the home. It took her only 3 days to acquire a restraining order from the court against her husband with virtually no questions asked. In many instances the mother has no need to prove her case in a divorce suit, her word taken as gospel no matter what defence the lawyers conjure up for the fathers.

There should be stark warnings to any men considering getting involved with women in the West, also the risks involved to farangs considering taking a Thai wife back to their home countries for settlement.

Not only are these systems completely bias against the fathers, but also inhuman and unjust. The only losers are the children and their fathers. Quite often when the children grow to adulthood, they end up hating the mother who perpetrated these vile acts against them and their father. So natural justice can prevail.

As you can see, I have strong views regarding these matters, it`s a sensitive subject with me and I will argue the point until the cows come home.

Edited March 16, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[LomSak27]

Bagwan Posted

If this American father has acted in the best interests of his child and that this can be demonstrated, I hope that the Judge will show some compassion and a large degree of sympathy to him. I hope that the decision to award custody to the mother be reviewed and that how the mother has conducted herself for the past 8 years will be a salient factor in any deliberation of the matter. No sentient person can believe other that the child's best interests and happiness are of paramount importance.

You are making some Giant assumptions;

The person in question kidnapped the child, plain and simple> What may be or might have been WE do not know, which lead me your most amazing staement .... WHY should the courts review how the mother has conducted herslef ? They already did that when custody was awarded. Why is my tax money going to coddle criminals and duplicate already perfromed judicial process?

this guy needs to be tossed in lockup - end of story

[nocturn]

discussion of this really is all speculation with the odd axe brought in to be ground.

While i can certainly empathise with the father, I reserve judgment, we know nothing of the mother at all.

[Grumbles]

Agreed, none of us really know the full story here. However too many times people just assume the male is in the wrong and the child needs her mum more. I think it is an outdated idea that women these days are more nurturing and more suitable as parents than men. As women strive for equality in all area's and focus on careers, then courts should recognise this and stop basing judgements on past morals and ideals!

Having experienced the one sided, inflexible, interfering, overbearing child 'welfare / support' agencies in Australia I would have to say that the guy probably decided that this was his best course of action to keep his daughter. As he has obviously been taking good care of her I hope he doesn't get treated too harshly.

[webfact]

New York girl abducted by her father found safe in Thailand

Daily Mail

A New York girl kidnapped four years ago by her father has been found living in Thailand by FBI agents, Daily Mail online reported Friday.

She was tracked down to Bangkok two weeks ago after a long-running operation by the FBI and is said to be in good health.

Deonna Shipman, who is now eight, was allegedly snatched in July 2007 by Jeffery Shipman, 51, after he was denied custody.

The UK-based online reported her father, who used to work for the state Department of Transportation, was detained in Thailand on international parental kidnapping charges and then transported to Los Angeles, where he was arraigned.

Deonna has been returned to her Syracuse-area home, according to Onondaga County Sheriff Kevin Walsh. Shipman, US Marshals say, will eventually be returned to Onandoga County for further court appearances.

When her daughter was abducted, mother Lioubov Shipman became what experts call ’the left-behind parent’.

She will soon return to the Syracuse area from Russia - the native country where she has been studying nursing - to be reunited with her daughter.

Ms Shipman and her ex-husband, Jeffrey, shared joint custody of the little girl since their divorce three years ago. While she had physical custody, Shipman was allowed visitation only.

Both parents filed petitions seeking to modify the order in June of 2007 in Onondaga County Family Court.

At the family's last court appearance, Shipman told his ex-wife: ’If I can't have her, no one will.’

Authorities believe Shipman abducted Deonna after one of his court-appointed visits after losing the lengthy custody battle with his wife.

Police authorities tracked Shipman’s car to Monroe County Airport in Rochester and later determined he had flown to London. At that point, though, they lost track of him.

He bought tickets to Frankfurt, Germany, also but these were never used. Authorities believe he bought them to throw them off the scent.

But FBI officials never let up in their search for Deonna, according to Walsh, finally finding her, and arresting Shipman, on February 24.

-- The Nation 2012-03-16

[BookMan]

Had he had shared custody of the little girl, he wouldn't have had to kidnap her.

That's obviously a non thought about comment, you must be a social worker!

I absolutely agree with our Macmundi.

With many of these women it`s winner takes all, total elimination of the male partner from the scene, no compassion or compromise. Why should they? These women have the full support of the law, the do gooder organisations and the State on their side acting as they’re henchmen.

Once the female partner has put the custodial wheels in motion, the guy is powned by the courts right up to the children are 18 years of age, but without hardly any jurisdiction over the upbringing of his kids, with the loss of most of his assets and forcibly imposed into a financial commitment for years after the divorce. It makes how some women in Thailand have cheated their farang husbands appear like chicken feed in comparison.

I knew of an acquaintance in the United States whose wife was having several affairs. One day she changed the locks on they’re apartment, brought in her family as backup and denied her husband access into the home. It took her only 3 days to acquire a restraining order from the court against her husband with virtually no questions asked. In many instances the mother has no need to prove her case in a divorce suit, her word taken as gospel no matter what defence the lawyers conjure up for the fathers.

There should be stark warnings to any men considering getting involved with women in the West, also the risks involved to farangs considering taking a Thai wife back to their home countries for settlement.

Not only are these systems completely bias against the fathers, but also inhuman and unjust. The only losers are the children and their fathers. Quite often when the children grow to adulthood, they end up hating the mother who perpetrated these vile acts against them and their father. So natural justice can prevail.

As you can see, I have strong views regarding these matters, it`s a sensitive subject with me and I will argue the point until the cows come home.

Really??? I think you might be referring to America. My experiences in Australia (part of the western world) are far different.

Like probably everyone on this forum I know many people whose parents went through divorce or separation. I can't think of many, or any really, who have ended up hating " the mother who perpetrated these vile acts against them and their father."

If anything, it has been the man who has come off better time and time again when separation has occurred. So many of the men I know, who go through a separation/divorce, pay next to nothing in maintenance: hide their assets and earnings to avoid more maintenance: See the kids whenever it suits them, which is not often. I rarely have seen this behaviour from the mother's side. Almost unfailingly, these same men will bleat incessantly about how they got ripped off, or the mother is a b*#*#*.

I know personally several people who grow up having no respect for their father, not the mother.

Your experiences are way out of kilter with my own.

[yummypizza]

Had he had shared custody of the little girl, he wouldn't have had to kidnap her.

That's obviously a non thought about comment, you must be a social worker!

I absolutely agree with our Macmundi.

With many of these women it`s winner takes all, total elimination of the male partner from the scene, no compassion or compromise. Why should they? These women have the full support of the law, the do gooder organisations and the State on their side acting as they’re henchmen.

Once the female partner has put the custodial wheels in motion, the guy is powned by the courts right up to the children are 18 years of age, but without hardly any jurisdiction over the upbringing of his kids, with the loss of most of his assets and forcibly imposed into a financial commitment for years after the divorce. It makes how some women in Thailand have cheated their farang husbands appear like chicken feed in comparison.

I knew of an acquaintance in the United States whose wife was having several affairs. One day she changed the locks on they’re apartment, brought in her family as backup and denied her husband access into the home. It took her only 3 days to acquire a restraining order from the court against her husband with virtually no questions asked. In many instances the mother has no need to prove her case in a divorce suit, her word taken as gospel no matter what defence the lawyers conjure up for the fathers.

There should be stark warnings to any men considering getting involved with women in the West, also the risks involved to farangs considering taking a Thai wife back to their home countries for settlement.

Not only are these systems completely bias against the fathers, but also inhuman and unjust. The only losers are the children and their fathers. Quite often when the children grow to adulthood, they end up hating the mother who perpetrated these vile acts against them and their father. So natural justice can prevail.

As you can see, I have strong views regarding these matters, it`s a sensitive subject with me and I will argue the point until the cows come home.

Really??? I think you might be referring to America. My experiences in Australia (part of the western world) are far different.

Like probably everyone on this forum I know many people whose parents went through divorce or separation. I can't think of many, or any really, who have ended up hating " the mother who perpetrated these vile acts against them and their father."

If anything, it has been the man who has come off better time and time again when separation has occurred. So many of the men I know, who go through a separation/divorce, pay next to nothing in maintenance: hide their assets and earnings to avoid more maintenance: See the kids whenever it suits them, which is not often. I rarely have seen this behaviour from the mother's side. Almost unfailingly, these same men will bleat incessantly about how they got ripped off, or the mother is a b*#*#*.

I know personally several people who grow up having no respect for their father, not the mother.

Your experiences are way out of kilter with my own.

you're a lucky man my friend, be blessed that things went the right way for you and have understanding for others who weren't so fortunate..

[ReeceArnold]

Maybe he loved his daughter so much, and maybe the mom wasn't too good, we don't know even 2% of the story, . . .

And about the detective lesson from that early post; its not so simple to fi.d someone in just 48 hours, they took 3months finding me and I wasn't hiding. Bangkok , for example, is certain a very good place to hide . . .

[oops]

Being that the father of this girl is American....I would really want to know more about the story before I would call him a Kidnapper.

Because in some cases that's what they call a father in America that should have his children but the feminist groups have to much control.

And the Government makes more money off the father of a child when a mother ends up with the children.

[swillowbee]

Thailand! ... you gotta' love this country, eh?

If I am going to be a crook, Thailand is the place to go! ... blend right in with the locals and just ... disappear.

[Buchholz]

Family of Jeffery Shipman speaks out

There are two sides to every story. That's why the family of Jeffery Shipman says they're speaking out, now that Shipman, who left the country with his daughter, Deonna, five years ago, turned himself into authorities in Thailand. He has since been arrested and separated from his daughter. Our Kat De Maria sat down with the family Friday.

SYRACUSE, N.Y. -- For five years, Jeffery Shipman, 51, was the only one who knew where his daughter, Deonna, was seen in a video last Christmas Eve innocently playing a computer game, probably not even aware she was technically "missing."

Amid a custody battle when Deonna was just four years old, Shipman took her and fled the country.

Shipman's family, who gathered together Friday to talk with reporters, say they didn't hear from him at all until sister Cindy received a call from the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok, Thailand, to say Shipman, who was on the FBI's Most Wanted list, had turned himself in.

Article and Video News continues :

http://centralny.ynn.com/content/all_news/577346/family-of-jeffery-shipman-speaks-out/

YNN - March 16, 2012

.

[Buchholz]

Family comes to the defense of a man charged with international kidnapping

The man charged with international kidnapping turned himself in last month in Thailand, along with his eight-year-old daughter Deonna. That’s according to his family who came forward to defend Jeffery Shipman on Friday.

"I always knew that she was safe with Jeff, always. There was no question about that," said Michael Shipman, Jeffery's brother.

Shipman recently sent the family drawings, pictures and home videos. For the first time, we’re getting a glimpse inside the life of a little girl at the center of an international kidnapping case.

Continues:

http://www.9wsyr.com/news/local/story/Family-comes-to-the-defense-of-a-man-charged-with/LsjGYZIRN0Wsn7DxM4frpw.cspx

Channel 9 News - March 17, 2012

.

[softgeorge]

Had he had shared custody of the little girl, he wouldn't have had to kidnap her.

That's obviously a non thought about comment, you must be a social worker!

I absolutely agree with our Macmundi.

With many of these women it`s winner takes all, total elimination of the male partner from the scene, no compassion or compromise. Why should they? These women have the full support of the law, the do gooder organisations and the State on their side acting as they’re henchmen.

Once the female partner has put the custodial wheels in motion, the guy is powned by the courts right up to the children are 18 years of age, but without hardly any jurisdiction over the upbringing of his kids, with the loss of most of his assets and forcibly imposed into a financial commitment for years after the divorce. It makes how some women in Thailand have cheated their farang husbands appear like chicken feed in comparison.

I knew of an acquaintance in the United States whose wife was having several affairs. One day she changed the locks on they’re apartment, brought in her family as backup and denied her husband access into the home. It took her only 3 days to acquire a restraining order from the court against her husband with virtually no questions asked. In many instances the mother has no need to prove her case in a divorce suit, her word taken as gospel no matter what defence the lawyers conjure up for the fathers.

There should be stark warnings to any men considering getting involved with women in the West, also the risks involved to farangs considering taking a Thai wife back to their home countries for settlement.

Not only are these systems completely bias against the fathers, but also inhuman and unjust. The only losers are the children and their fathers. Quite often when the children grow to adulthood, they end up hating the mother who perpetrated these vile acts against them and their father. So natural justice can prevail.

As you can see, I have strong views regarding these matters, it`s a sensitive subject with me and I will argue the point until the cows come home.

Really??? I think you might be referring to America. My experiences in Australia (part of the western world) are far different.

Like probably everyone on this forum I know many people whose parents went through divorce or separation. I can't think of many, or any really, who have ended up hating " the mother who perpetrated these vile acts against them and their father."

If anything, it has been the man who has come off better time and time again when separation has occurred. So many of the men I know, who go through a separation/divorce, pay next to nothing in maintenance: hide their assets and earnings to avoid more maintenance: See the kids whenever it suits them, which is not often. I rarely have seen this behaviour from the mother's side. Almost unfailingly, these same men will bleat incessantly about how they got ripped off, or the mother is a b*#*#*.

I know personally several people who grow up having no respect for their father, not the mother.

Your experiences are way out of kilter with my own.

Well my parents went through a divorce and my brother and myself were awarded to our mother and her abusive husband. (The courts allegedly knew what was best for us) We received constant physical abuse from her husband and our bitch of a mother did absolutely nothing. Our mother even denied us access to our father who would turn up constantly to see us but we were never alowed to speak to him being told he was a bad man. What total lies and rubbish we were being fed by her and the animal she married. My older brother committed suicide at 14 because of my mother and step father. I do not even speak to mother now and totally dispise her in everyway. I have a strong relationship with my father and 1/2 brothers and sisters who grew up in a happy normal family. Nope from my personal experience the mothers are the evil ones.

Edited March 17, 2012 by softgeorge