New Deportation Condition Changes!

[Badbanker]

Hallo Bad Banker,

Many thanks for your answer. But I have – unfortunately – to say that I did not understand your comment.

In a previous post you wrote: Quote: “Sir if you overstay your visa you have broken Thai law and are considered a criminal, as you will go to court …” and “Breaking the law by overstaying makes you a criminal” Unquote.

In your recent answer you seem to distinguish between deportation as such and being a criminal (see above). Does it mean Thai Immigration or Thai courts have no authority to blacklist criminals?

It all depends if the court imposes a jail sentence on you of over X amount of time I believe. Actually we need a Thai legal eagle in here to clarify things. Immigration can order a Black List after a conviction if they consider it is a crime worthy of this. I believe this is one legal area Immigration could technically use to black list overstayers.

[Badbanker]

Often we confuse deportation in the sense of returning a person to a country in regard to a request from that county (eg Assage) and expulsion from a country. It appears Thailand does not distinguish between the two. Is this true BadBanker?

Yes you are right there are 2 sorts of deportation. The likes of Viktor Bout and your average overstayer. The first goes where ever a request to deport is agreed and the second is where you no longer have a right or permission to reside in this country and as such are returned to your country of origin.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Badbanker

[dantilley]

He jumped ship in New Delhi

How did he manage that? I thought you needed a visa to enter India?

[Badbanker]

Bought a new ticket with a credit card in the transit section of the airport!

[Lotusbluete]

Hallo Bad Banker,

The matter starts to get interesting.

As far as I got it the sequence of actions is as follows: You overstay, you got caught by the police, you are arrested and put in a holding cell. Now you just are (only!) a suspect. Next: Then you are brought (next day/week/month?) to court and ONLY the judge can sentence you to deportation. Now you are a “deportation-criminal” and you are put in the IDC. Correct? It means that the Immigration police alone can not put you in IDC.

But now you put a new twist in this matter. Not only can the judge sentence you to deportation but also to “X amount of time” in a “real” jail. Then and only then you are a “criminal-criminal”. And only in this case you can be blacklisted.

But this act seems to be more than unlikely as you yourself report about this case of the 9-time “returner”.

So I stand my case that if you are sentenced to deportation you see to it that you get the money together for a RETURN (!) flight to your country of origin and a few days later you show up at Thai immigration with a smile on your face and you are LEGALLY back in the country. Even if you do this repeated times (see above) the Thai authorities don’t seem to mind. Simple as that.

[Lotusbluete]

Hallo Bad Banker,

There seems to be another twist in this matter.

I mean the case with the passport. To be honest, if I would be a flight captain I would strictly deny to accept responsibility to keep the passport of any sort of passenger. That is in no case “duty” of a flight captain. And I think it is undisputed that Thai authorities may it be the Immigration police or even a Thai judge have any legal means to order a “foreign” flight captain to take a third persons passport.

How would be the possible sequence of events in case of an acceptance: The Thai authorities hand over the passport to the captain. Then who, the captain or the Thai authorities have to notify an “official” in the stop-over destination to come to the gate and again accept the passport (against receipt?!). Not to forget that this “stop-over” country has not legal matters whatsoever in the deportation. Then, later, this official has to hand over again the passport to the (another?!) flight captain for the final flight to the country of origin (let’s not even imagine of two or more stop-overs). If I would be ironic I would say that after landing at the country of origin the captain would come into the cabin and with a smile on his face hands over the passport (against receipt?!) and whishes a pleasant stay.

You see, I am not a flight captain, but I am sure that captains have a lot other things to do after landing than to notify/wait for an official (in your case in New Delhi) to hand over the passport.

The one who may suffer most is the deportee. In consequence it can mean that he/she is sentenced to deportation, has the money for a (return?!) flight but no flight captain is prepared to take hold of the passport.

We are back to square one: The deportee stay indefinitely in the IDC.

[easybullet3]

Previously It could be arranged for British nationals to be deported to a place for which you have no right of entry refusal as in Hong Kong.

That has now changed! If you are arrested or voluntarily surrender to immigration even after 5 days overstay expect to be deported to your country of origin.

5 days overstay will get someone deported? I know the 'overstay' line at the airport and land-borders and there is 'always' some people paying an overstay fine. so I can assume there must be at least 30 or more offenders a day in thailand (and thats a very very low estimate) it sounds a bit far-fetched to deport all of them!

to me, the very fact that they advertise a 'fine system' (500 baht a day) means that they are ok with you overstaying (as long as you pay the fine), or else, why on earth is it in place?

or are you talking about 'criminals' who have overstayed?

I want to be clear about this because I have been here 5 years (and always legally on a tourist visa) regularly doing visa runs.. I have nothing bad on my name and I fund my own life here from my UK Bank... but I do casually overstay sometimes and pay the fine.

am I (and other people in my situation) at risk?

and more importantly, is there anywhere I can read about this new rule? or is there a number i can dial?

(PS: the 4-digit immigration helpline is awful.. I had so much wrong information from them in the past I really dont trust them),, so if you know anywhere i can clarify my situation, then please share..

regards

[Maestro]

Badbanker, when I posted the deportation clause from the Immigration Act I was wondering

a) whether the immigration division of the Royal Thai Police can decide on its own on a deportation

or whether a deportation always needs a court order, with the immigration police then carrying out that order and deciding on the modus operandi (mode of transport, destination, etc)

I suspect it is

P.S. I see this has already been answered, deportation is on a court order. I had posted without reading the latest posts in the topic.

Edited March 20, 2012 by Maestro
Added postscript.

[Maestro]

Till the end of September 2011 you could be deported to almost anywhere your nationality had no right of refusal to entry. Then along came Mr. ACMW (identity known) who was a UK national released on bail or license to appeal on a charge of human trafficking of Thai women. He fled to Thailand! A warrant for his arrest was issued by the UK Government and then through Interpol given to Thai Immigration.

He was arrested and I had the responsibility of translating and informing him his visa had been withdrawn by the Royal Thai Government and he was black listed from entering Thailand and was to be deported.

His friend bought him a ticket and he was put on a plane, passport in hand with a stop in New Delhi. He jumped ship in New Delhi and caught a flight to Cambodia where he still resides due to a lack of extradition treaty with the UK.

This infuriated the UK and Thai Government to a degree you really can't comprehend and a month or so after this the strict deport to country of origin order was issued.

PM me if you want to know who he is!

I can imagine how this caused some embarrassment all around and this is likely part of the reason for the adjustment in deportation procedure by Thai immigration. In today's world of political correctness, nobody wants to get accused of discrimination and thus the same procedure is being applied to all deportees, regardless of the background for the arrest.

Not knowing about the possibility of handing a deportee and his passport to the captain of the aircraft, for handing on to police authorities and the captain of the next flight at stopovers where applicable and if the involved airlines and governments agree, I would in this case of Mr. ACMW have expected the UK to send a police officer to take charge of Mr. ACMW, take possession of his passport and accompany him back to the UK.

[Maestro]

5 days overstay will get someone deported? I know the 'overstay' line at the airport and land-borders and there is 'always' some people paying an overstay fine. so I can assume there must be at least 30 or more offenders a day in thailand (and thats a very very low estimate) it sounds a bit far-fetched to deport all of them!...

Having read all posts in this topic, also those that got deleted for being off topic, I can summarise the current situation as follows:

• An overstayer who goes directly to the airport and pays his fine on departure usually does not get arrested.
  
• When a foreigner is found to be on overstay during a police check, the police officer can use his discretion whether or not to make an arrest. In most cases the officer may close an eye and let him go if the overstay is not more than five days, but would probably be disciplined for dereliction of his duties if he did not arrest a foreigner with a longer overstay and were found out.
  
• When a foreigner goes to the local immigration office, not directly to the airport or other border checkpoint, to clear his overstay the same applies as mentioned above with a police check.
  

[NancyL]

What about people with flagrant overstay violations "up country"? Is there something similar to IDC in Chiang Mai for overstayers who come to the attention of the police due to some other activity, like bar fight, playing music in a bar without a work permit, taking their clothes off & urinating in their condo lobby (just to mention a few activities of some members of the expat retiree community here)

[Lotusbluete]

From my point of view we are slowly mixing two cases which should strictly be kept separate, extradiction and deportation.

In case of an extradiction (as in the case of Mr. ACMW) the legal case, i.e. the warrant of arrest, is made in a "second" country and Thailand only assisted in the arrest and the extradiction. This extradiction must absolutely not be in the direction of the country of origin as we all have seen in the case of Victor Bout. His country of origin was, if I am not mistaken, Russia. And as far as I remember Russia very seriously (to put it in mild words) demanded his extradicition. But he was instead shipped to the country that started the legal case, in his case the USA. So I agree, it should be the responsibility of the "second" country to assure his safe arrival. Although, I will not hide, that I still have my serious doubts (I am NOT a lawyer!) if there is any "stop over" whether the deportee can not LEGALLY demand his passport back in this stop over country as this country has no legal matter in this case. As we have seen in the case of Victor Bout the USA have sent several (!!!) officials as "guard of honour" and even its own aircraft to ensure his "safe" (and direct!) return to the US.

In case of a deportation the legal case, i.e. the deportation order is solely and only issued by Thai authorities. As said in a previous post neither a possible country of stop over nor the country of origin have any legal matter in this case. So in case of a "simple" deportation-criminal (with no extra black listing) the Thai authorities should (and I think) will not matter where the deportee is flown to. As long as the deportee just touches foreign soil the deportation matter is solved and, as also said in a previous post, the deportee can return within hours/days and is LEGALLY back in the country.

[Badbanker]

When I read his post about begging police to arrest vagrant Farang, i must admit it sent up a red flag, since he would be in a perfect position then to "rescue' them.

Go to the airport an hour earlier than usual, and on a 5 day overstay...pay the 2,500 Baht, and please do come back soon!

I did post a rather long theory previously that said that Thailand may be using this to profile groups they fear ... since the Soi 71 bombing.

Anyway, I agree with you that unless you are really creating a problem, this is just a fine that is paid. Also, folks seem to be tossing around this 20,000 baht number like that is the fine...it is not the fine..it is the CAP on the fine.

Richard the problem is that there are so many and it is not 5 day it is 5 months and they have been sleeping rough for 4 of these months with out a shower or bath and have no possessions. Many of them suffer dementia or other mental illness that requires embassy or family intervention for their repatriation. I have paid numerous people's court fines and given full sets of clothes, underwear and baggage and checked them into cheap hotels to get cleaned. Paid taxi fares and train fairs even borrowed airport passes to ensure they get on the plane.

They will go back to their bank and will be back on a plane with a new passport in a few days, destitute in a month and come to see me for hand outs again. That is where the buck stops. It is hop my motorcycle I want you to meet some friends of mine who can help get you sorted out. Short trip to the IDC and they are sorted.

I have a great deal of compassion for everyone but the streets of Bangkok are not the place for a sick or demented foreigner with no money or ability to look after himself.

Do you know not one of them has come back to me in any way and said thank you for intervening?

Edited March 20, 2012 by Badbanker

[Badbanker]

Hallo Bad Banker,

the one question that come to my mind reading all this: If someone is caught for overstay, even incarcerated in the IDC for a certain period (let's say until he find means to pay for deportation) etc. all this does apparently not lead to any sort of BLACKLISTING. You report about a man that has done the "round", as I would like to call it, for 9 times now. That seems for me in a way inconsequent by the Thai authorities.

The fact is that you are deported from Thailand to your country of origin. But this, the country of your origin, has no matters whatsoever in the deportation and lets you return to Thailand maybe with the next available flight (provided that financial means are available).

My direct questions again: Did you ever come across a case that due just to deportation somebody was accordingly blacklisted, i.e. prevented from ever enter Thailand again?

Sadly no! Only black lists are people that have committed a crime in their home country or Thailand and a request has been made to withdraw their visa.

[harrry]

I have a great deal of compassion for everyone but the streets of Bangkok are not the place for a sick or demented foreigner with no money or ability to look after himself.

Agreed but because of some great Thai people it is probably better than being a sick or demented citizen with no money or ability to look after himself in many countries.

[Badbanker]

Hallo Bad Banker,

I mean the case with the passport. To be honest, if I would be a flight captain I would strictly deny to accept responsibility to keep the passport of any sort of passenger. That is in no case “duty” of a flight captain. And I think it is undisputed that Thai authorities may it be the Immigration police or even a Thai judge have any legal means to order a “foreign” flight captain to take a third persons passport.

How would be the possible sequence of events in case of an acceptance: The Thai authorities hand over the passport to the captain. Then who, the captain or the Thai authorities have to notify an “official” in the stop-over destination to come to the gate and again accept the passport (against receipt?!). Not to forget that this “stop-over” country has not legal matters whatsoever in the deportation. Then, later, this official has to hand over again the passport to the (another?!) flight captain for the final flight to the country of origin (let’s not even imagine of two or more stop-overs). If I would be ironic I would say that after landing at the country of origin the captain would come into the cabin and with a smile on his face hands over the passport (against receipt?!) and whishes a pleasant stay.

I am going to answer your 2 post in this one.

The deportation process at the IDC is quick. If you surrender at 8.30 in the morning a case is drawn up in about 30 mins and you are at court by 10am. The judge makes a decision and will fine anything from 1,500 to 10,000 baht and if you have the money to pay the fine you will be taken back to the IDC. If no money you serve 1 day for each 200 baht of the court fine in Pathumthani jail.

Then if you have a ticket for that evening and the money to for transportation you may fly out that evening. If not you will wait till a ticket and transportation funding is available.

Airline captains acceptance

Some airlines by policy do not accept deportees and as such it is a lower rank airline that normally accept you. As has already been stated the airline that flew you into Thailand the last time has the legal responsibility to also remove you. Even in darkest African 2 flights will get you home from Bangkok!

[Badbanker]

Badbanker, when I posted the deportation clause from the Immigration Act I was wondering

a) whether the immigration division of the Royal Thai Police can decide on its own on a deportation

or whether a deportation always needs a court order, with the immigration police then carrying out that order and deciding on the modus operandi (mode of transport, destination, etc)

I suspect it is

P.S. I see this has already been answered, deportation is on a court order. I had posted without reading the latest posts in the topic.

I am led to believe that there must be a court order. In the case of our British Delhi hopper, a translation of a British court order was shown to a Thai court and as it was human trafficking of Thai women, the court quickly cancelled his right to remain. (withdrew his visa I think it is termed)

I believe there have been special cases but I can't personally quote them.

[Badbanker]

I can imagine how this caused some embarrassment all around and this is likely part of the reason for the adjustment in deportation procedure by Thai immigration. In today's world of political correctness, nobody wants to get accused of discrimination and thus the same procedure is being applied to all deportees, regardless of the background for the arrest.

Not knowing about the possibility of handing a deportee and his passport to the captain of the aircraft, for handing on to police authorities and the captain of the next flight at stopovers where applicable and if the involved airlines and governments agree, I would in this case of Mr. ACMW have expected the UK to send a police officer to take charge of Mr. ACMW, take possession of his passport and accompany him back to the UK.

Yesterday immigration officers cursed me and cited Mr. ACMW as being the sole very embarrassing reason for the change in policy that has caused them a huge amount of more work.

It was also a UK Government mistake not sending officers to escort him home to the UK!

[harrry]

I have some difficulty understanding this. In a deportation from a foreign warrant the person is handed over to a police officer of the requesting country. International laws enable him to retain the person in custody in transit countries. By trying to do it on the cheap and use expulsion to bypass legal safeguards it backfired.

With expulsion of any type there is no person with legal custody once Thai territory is left..

If the captain attempts to detain the person in a transit country he would surely be liable to claims of illegal imprisonment.

Edited March 20, 2012 by harrry

[Badbanker]

What about people with flagrant overstay violations "up country"? Is there something similar to IDC in Chiang Mai for overstayers who come to the attention of the police due to some other activity, like bar fight, playing music in a bar without a work permit, taking their clothes off & urinating in their condo lobby (just to mention a few activities of some members of the expat retiree community here)

All deportations of non neighbouring countries nationals go through Bangkok. So it is police lockup or jail and then transport to Bangkok for deportation. Logically I would expect that Phuket may deport some foreigners directly to the likes of Singapore of Hong Kong although I don't know?

[Badbanker]

I have some difficulty understanding this. In a deportation from a foreign warrant the person is handed over to a police officer of the requesting country. International laws enable him to retain the person in custody in transit countries. By trying to do it on the cheap and use expulsion to bypass legal safeguards it backfired.

With expulsion of any type there is no person with legal custody once Thai territory is left..

If the captain attempts to detain the person in a transit country he would surely be liable to claims of illegal imprisonment.

Yes you are right and as I said in the previous post "It was also a UK Government mistake not sending officers to escort him home to the UK!"

[spacemand]

Badbanker

You come across like a decent person just trying to help, not sure you get paid for your work, unless you are an embassy employee, since it seems like most of the people you handle don't have the funds to pay you.

Thanks for your contribution and I hope you have the time in the future to give your input on what happens since you seem very informed. My rule of thumb staying here is I try to behave like I would like foreigners behave in my country, following the law and behaving decently. I had a 2 day overstay a year ago because I thought I could stay until the 25th and not the 23rd mistakes happen but overstaying months and months or 2-5 days again and again then its not a mistake and in my opinion those people should be barred from entering the country.

Thanks again for your work probably save a few people some scary nights in jail.

[astanhope]

Just remember it was one lovely British man who jumped ship in New Delhi to return to Cambodia that caused all of this!

Sounds like a job for Captain Benjamin Willard.

[astanhope]

Often we confuse deportation in the sense of returning a person to a country in regard to a request from that county (eg Assage) and expulsion from a country. It appears Thailand does not distinguish between the two. Is this true BadBanker?

I think you are confusing "deportation" with "extradition."

[Maestro]

I have been travelling and fell behind on my news reading. I see that the Brit whose behaviour was the cause of immigration's change in deportation procedures has been named in this news article as Andrew Christopher Michael Wallace and therefore we can now refer to him also here by his name.

I still think it was ill-advised of the British Prison Service not to sent one of their officers to Bangkok to bring the fugitive Wallace back to Britain. It seems more than a little foolhardy to me to rely on the staff of apparently two airlines and also of New Delhi airport to act as prison wardens for Wallace. The article says that Thai police arrested Wallace and handed him over to the British embassy, which leads me to think that it should have been the responsibility of the embassy to make the arrangements for his secure return to Britain and no blame should be put on the Thai authorities.

It remains to be seen how many airlines, and police at stopover airports, will agree to take deportees on the conditions of these new procedures. Hopefully, no ThaiVisa member will become subject to deportation, but I guess Badbanker will keep us posted about how this is playing out in coming weeks.

[Badbanker]

Thank you Maestro

So for one mans protecting of his own freedom all deportees now have to spend larger amounts of money and time to come back to Thailand. And Andrew Christopher Michael Wallace to this day lives his life in total freedom.

Tis a shame that this man could not have done the 3 months in jail voluntarily in the UK and we all could have carried on normally!

As I have said before, at the rate people flagrantly break the overstay law it only takes one persons extreme action to hurt us all

[dantilley]

It was also a UK Government mistake not sending officers to escort him home to the UK!

The authorities here could also have insisted that they would only accept a direct flight ticket as the condition for his release and deportation. This would have prevented the opportunity for him to do a runner in India. Of course this rule couldn't apply to the bigger picture as there are many countries without any direct flights from Bangkok - but if they'd done this for Mr. Wallace we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I would suggest that to minimise the potentially awkward situation of having to keep hold of passports during transit, a "direct flights only" rule should be applied wherever possible.

[Badbanker]

It was also a UK Government mistake not sending officers to escort him home to the UK!

The authorities here could also have insisted that they would only accept a direct flight ticket as the condition for his release and deportation. This would have prevented the opportunity for him to do a runner in India. Of course this rule couldn't apply to the bigger picture as there are many countries without any direct flights from Bangkok - but if they'd done this for Mr. Wallace we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I would suggest that to minimise the potentially awkward situation of having to keep hold of passports during transit, a "direct flights only" rule should be applied wherever possible.

Yes that was also an issue, but the person who was kind enough to help pay the ticket was broke and as is often the case, immigration and the UK Government wanted him out of Thailand. Direct flight and an escort would have done it nicely.

[wayned]

I would suggest that in the future if Thailand is asked to arrest someone and deport them that if that country "declines" to send someone to escort the detainee to their home country, Thailand should "deport" him and deliver him to that country's Embassy in Bangkok, after all it is their territory, and the the responsibility of getting the individual back to their home country lies on the Ambassador of that country. Hind sight is 20/20!

[harrry]

This situation arose because both countries tried to avoid the right of the accused to a court hearing. Thailand did have the right to refuse entry and as such make the person leave to a place of his choice. It also could have presented the arrest warrant and the person to the THai Court to be held until the UK could apply to a UK court for extradition and then ask the Thai court to allow it to enforce it.

Both countries tried to take administrative shortcuts and save money and airfares. The persons rights to due process were definitely abused.

If Thailand had wanted the person sent from the UK it could not have occurred in this way.

Whilst I am not against the Thai Immigration Police as I think they generally do a hard job well considering the staffing I think they do not realise that International Law exists and taking the easy or quick way out will not work internationally. They cannot transit countries to break the law by allowing illegal imprisonment of the person in transit.

Courts should also realise that they must work to the book in an International environment and that they do not have power outside of Thailand except by treaty and International law. It may have3 been a quick fix but in this case the decision meant that the action taken by the accused was possible and legal.

The blame apparently does not rest with you BadBanker or the hard pressed Immigration Police but as a direct result of the court decision to cancel the right to stay rather than to allow extradition.

Edited March 21, 2012 by harrry