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phompen

Session With An Amateur Model

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Please look elsewhere. Thailand doesn't need more "amatuer photographers" running around with their first entry level DSLR trying to pay a few baht to capture the local women nude like a monkey in the zoo..

I didn't know about the prices, I made a mistake, I have done a simple math relation with a seller in a shop, arround 60 bahts/hour, I have thought that 500 bahts/hour would be correct, but I did not know for prices about modeling in Thailand, and we are more arround 1000 to 5000 bahts per hour, but for some more beautiful girls than I've targeted (I was focusing more on the girl next door...)

If some falang consider some girls as monkeys, I'm one of the most defensive for the girls, so I think if you would known me better you would not say that sentence, I'm a bit agree with you in some cases with some photographers

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Hi ookla

While I don't live in Bangkok, I do live in Thailand and also do photography.

First, I looked at your work on Flickr. Some nice images with good technical quality. What was missing though, was anything involving models - or at least any that I saw. You indicated that you had worked with some amateur models in Europe. If you have images of them, you might need them for my suggestions below.

I have 3 models on flickr, but not mixed them into a single set, one of them has a set called Lydia sexy shot, but only 2 photos on 11 are visible for non flickr members (or not disabled safesearch), Else I have another pictures of models that I have to upload soon

I am curious about why you seem to limit yourself to amateur models? You can get good images with amateurs but they will generally take more coaching than an experienced model and so you can get more shooting done with an experienced model.

yes I think you're right, maybe I think that every girl can be a model, but for some specific shots only an experienced model can do that well

but I would like to do the girl next door, no make up or almost, something natural, for exemple reading a book in a park and some basic ideas,

maybe after I can try something more complex, more fashion

else I would like to thank you cdnvic and you for your support wink.png

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Please look elsewhere. Thailand doesn't need more "amatuer photographers" running around with their first entry level DSLR trying to pay a few baht to capture the local women nude like a monkey in the zoo..

I didn't know about the prices, I made a mistake, I have done a simple math relation with a seller in a shop, arround 60 bahts/hour, I have thought that 500 bahts/hour would be correct, but I did not know for prices about modeling in Thailand, and we are more arround 1000 to 5000 bahts per hour, but for some more beautiful girls than I've targeted (I was focusing more on the girl next door...)

If some falang consider some girls as monkeys, I'm one of the most defensive for the girls, so I think if you would known me better you would not say that sentence, I'm a bit agree with you in some cases with some photographers

Ooka - I feel I owe you an apology. My mind was spinning not so much on you as an individual, but on my experiences with amateurs in general and I failed to make that clear. I'm sorry.

You will set your own terms and will have the opportunity to be either a positive experence for those you come into contact with, or a negative experience.

I think what you do with your images is much more important to the model than how much she'll be paid, and as long as you're 100% honest with your models about your intended usage, AND you have them sign releases, then you're off to a good start. I have hundreds of such sessions I'd love to use to make a showcase web presence, but I know there are problems with this which might or might not be a problem with your usage designs.

Allow me to run some thoughts by you. In my experience in Thailand there are two major stumbling blocks. And unfortunately they are absolutely necessary if you intended to do practically anything with the images. The first is to explain to the woman you want to put the images on the internet and how they'll be used. You'll need a website with other models on it to give them an honest visual of what you're asking. Or maybe you can show them someone else's site and explain in the future you will make one like this.

I wish you luck with this, but I'm afraid you'll have a very low success rate.

Second, you'll need to get them to sign a release in both languages (English and Thai) and once you put that document in front of them, even if they've agreed, most will stop right there. Of course we're talking about your "girls next door" and not professionals from agencies. Professionals from agencies are accustomed to abiding by their agencies standards using their releases.. but another problem will be that any agency, working with a model at this level, who asks them to sign releases for posing nude wiht the internet as a destination.. has a high chance of not being an ethical company.

I have a lawyer on retainer in Thailand who wrote my releases and because they wrote them, and because they're on retainer, they are prepared to defend them. And to defend them they stipulated strict requirements. I must sign them, the model must sign them, my assistant signs them, and a family member or close friend of the models signs them. Preferrably a parent. Like any legal document, if it's contested, you need to show you entered the contract in good faith and represented your intentions accurately and didn't try to mislead them in any way. And because this is Thailand, if their family has connections the releases can become instantly worthless no matter how much work you've put into making them correct. It's the nature of the local culture.

Now you can start to see the effort necessary to do this legally in a way that protects both parties.. and why most amateurs don't bother. Especially when all this effort can be completed negated by a family with power. And it doesn't take much power, all that's necessary is to have more power than you. This isn't hard because we have none while in Thailand. The most power we have in Thailand is to not stick our head in the lions mouth to begin with.

When you think of a young model who might go home (many young Thai's live at home well into their 30's or longer), maybe they will have remorse, and they tell their conservative parents/uncles/etc.. what they just did,. You could easily put yourself in danger legal releases or not. All of this I've been talking about.. is where knowintg the culture, the language,. and the people becomes very important so you can use your best judgment when evaluating each potential model.

And you can start to see why I don't display this type of imagery on my own site where I'd be asking for trouble, and where my goals/purposes extend further into other areas. The distractions would be severe. And I'd be a sitting target for any crusadar working against a vareity of causes from perceived exploitation to illegal acts. And it wouldn't stop with Thai authorities, you'd get missionaries and other NGO's trying to cause issues for you in your home country. One mistake, one underage girl witih a fake ID, and you could potentially face time in a Thai prison AND then be labeled a sex offender in your home country. All based on someones biased interpretation of my art.

When I ask myself what real benefits I get from displaying such images I come up with very few. Too much risk just to display my work, no real advertising benefits, there's just not much benefit. In fact, I've found there to be benefits to NOT displaying this type of imagery. The best way for a photographer to get these types of shoots, or if a professional - clients who want to be photographed in glamour or nude and will pay to do so.. is to maintain a very low profile with zero risk the authorities will be visiting your studio and examining your files. (there are safeguards against this as well, but another complex discussion area) AND to build this reputation through word of mouth. One happy client who loves their photographs and feels well protected, will recommend you to their girlfriends, who in turn recommends you.. and so on. All of this best happens.. by NOT displaying these images on the internet.

So what do they give permission for when signing releases? A client gives no such permissions, the release protects them. It states I only have permission to capture, process, and manipulate their images to meet their order. That's it. If you asked a paying client for permissions, then you have to give them something such as a free sessions or at least deeply discounted. This works okay in the west, but in Thailand they value their privacy much more. For instance one of my clients is a rich 30ish medical professional with a string of clinics and condos and boats to match. She loves pictures of herself. Her idea of fun is to spend the day modeling in different locations wearing different stuff or not, and pretending she's a professional. But they are only for her. It would be career suicide if these images got out, and maybe that of family members as well. Trust is paramount. Thailand is a very conservative society and you can't forget this for a second.

A model you approach to photograph agrees to permissions you essentially bargain for based on what you can help her feel comfortable with. I'll be very specific, one set of clothed images to be used as samples for a software reivew, inclusion in a specific existing gallery, her own gallery, etc. But what I ask for the most is unresticted access in my actual portfolios, the big heavy book of prints paying clients will use to help them decide on sets, lighting, poses, etc.. Most agree to this because they love the books and want to be part of them, and because they instinctively realize those viewing the books wil be women like them and they won't be going on-line out of control.

A model hired for a specific assignment, I only ask for permissions necessary to work the assignment. No more.

Why do I do this selectively when I could just ask for and in many cases obtain general releases? Because I would get little benefit from doing so. This is Thailand, such imagery could hurt them and bring issues back to me, and as I explained anove I'd get little for my efforts. By not asking for a general release and being selective and maintaining a reputation of honoring my clients requests.. I think I actually derive more benefits.

How much of this can help you or others? Probably just bits and pieces. Our needs are different but maybe by explaining my reasoning it will help you identifiy and address some of yours.

Sorry for the verbosity...

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If some falang consider some girls as monkeys,

Well yes and no, but they could be:-

original.jpg

100% wild

I bet you all never got a shot like this to post on ThaiVisaDotCom. coffee1.gif

Win w00t.gif

Edited by Kan Win

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