Manchester United

[muckypups]

Fergie's extensive tinkering in Copenhagen may well come back to haunt us.. I really thought we'd do enough to get a point last night. Now, it's a head to head against Benfica. but at least we're at home.

Congratulations to Celtic though.. qualification for the next phase.. jeez, I hope we're there with you..

This from the Guardian..:

Ferguson and Strachan share disbelief in different ways

Ewan Murray at Celtic Park

Wednesday November 22, 2006

The Guardian

Sir Alex Ferguson was left to bemoan his side's wastefulness in front of goal for the second Champions League match in succession as Manchester United failed to turn territorial dominance into tangible reward last night.

"We are disappointed," Ferguson lamented. "We threw it away, there is no question of that. You need to score goals to win football matches and we didn't have enough in the last third of the field to

Ferguson endured a similar outcome three weeks ago when United lost 1-0 in Copenhagen after having the bulk of possession. "We had terrific chances in Copenhagen and didn't take them," he said. "We didn't have as many clear-cut ones tonight but we had good openings."

Ferguson was upbeat, though, on the possibility of his team lifting themselves for Sunday's Premiership visit of Chelsea and what is now virtually a knockout tie against Benfica to decide who qualifies from Group F alongside Celtic. "Historically, we do things the hard way," he said. "We are going to have to do it the hard way again and get a point against Benfica. It's a home match, and of course we will try to win. Our home form is very good, we have no worries on that score, but we want to have a better edge to our game.

"We can now concentrate on the match on Sunday, which is massive for us, and the players will now relish that. If the players have ambitions to win the league, they will know how important Sunday is."

Louis Saha was United's biggest culprit, after failing to convert when one-on-one with the Celtic goalkeeper Artur Boruc and seeing a penalty saved by the Pole. Ferguson claimed Saha "heard the [referee's] whistle" when he missed the first chance and the goalkeeper's penalty save owed much to time-wasting by Celtic players, particularly Neil Lennon, which tested Saha's temperament further.

Yet Ferguson refused to blame the French striker for the defeat. "Louis is disappointed, he has missed a penalty kick in an important match," he said. "But the players will help him, we will all help him. He'll probably miss another penalty in his career. Understandably, the players are disappointed. We have five days to lift them now but if we want to win the league we have to show character and I am sure that we will."

Celtic's manager, Gordon Strachan, said he was struggling to take in the enormity of last night's result and the progression to the last 16 of the Champions League for the first time in the club's history.

"We are tired now, it has been an emotional day," he conceded. "I'll go to sleep tonight, check Teletext in the morning and if it says there that we have qualified, I'll finally believe it."

The Celtic captain, Neil Lennon, was shocked but ecstatic to learn that his side had qualified for the Champions League knockout stages after their dramatic victory. When congratulated on reaching the next round, Lennon told a television reporter: "Have we? If that really is true then it is the best result of my whole career. Just to beat Manchester United alone is enough. I can't speak highly enough of the players."

Note to Red; Did you go?

[muckypups]

Inevitably, given the way Van Nistlerooy is popping them in at the Bernabau, questions are being asked..interesting article all the same:

United pay price for profligacy in attack on the big occasion

Daniel Taylor at Celtic Park

Wednesday November 22, 2006

The Guardian

There are some games when the scoreline tells a lie. Manchester United paid a considerable price last night for their inability to turn slick, beguiling football into the hard currency of goals and their shortcomings conjured up an awkward question for Sir Alex Ferguson. These are the matches in which, not too long ago, Ruud van Nistelrooy would leave an indelible mark. An old debate, perhaps, but one that has to be recycled after what was a mind-boggling result given the run of play.

The issue could conceivably have been more to do with United's final ball rather than their finishing. None the less, this was the first time this season that United have conspicuously missed their record scorer in European competitions. A one-off? That can only be judged over a longer span of time but Ferguson will be acutely aware that Van Nistelrooy would have snaffled the chance that fell to Louis Saha when clean through with six minutes remaining. Saha seemed to think he was offside and, crucially, paused just at the moment when a centre-forward should display the nerve of a bomb-disposal expert. A golden opportunity was wasted and the game headed for its bewildering conclusion. "He heard a whistle," Ferguson offered, rather unconvincingly.

The other temptation is to wonder whether Van Nistelrooy would have failed to convert a penalty when the heat of the battle was close to intolerable. So much was riding on Saha's last-minute kick that the Frenchman could have been excused if he were afflicted by stage fright. Van Nistelrooy's record from the penalty spot was not immaculate either. He once missed a vital kick against Arsenal but he would generally thrive when the pressure was cranked up. The Dutchman's knack was getting his butterflies to fly in formation.

To Ferguson, it is a hypothetical debate and one to which he has no intentions of being drawn, particularly with his team at the top of the Premiership. Saha has played with so much style this season it would be inappropriate to dwell too much on one bad night. But football can be brutal and another European journey for England's biggest club is in danger of being waylaid. The knockout stage will have started early for them this year, because if Benfica win at Old Trafford in two weeks' time United will suffer the ignominy of going out despite having won their opening three Group F games.

All of which may take Ferguson some time to comprehend. Not even 30 years in management can prepare a man for the events that Celtic Park conjured up and he bore the look of someone who had found it all a deeply chastening experience. The explosion of noise at the final whistle will have screeched through his ears like fingernails running down a blackboard.

Ferguson shook his head in recounting the times when the gap between the two teams resembled a chasm. In those moments, United cherished the ball as though it were made of bone china. Celtic treated it as though it were a medicine ball. They huffed and they puffed but nearly all the aesthetic football came from the visitors. Cristiano Ronaldo seemed intent on turning the occasion into an ordeal for Scotland's top club. Evander Sno was bamboozled with a cruel nutmeg. Then it was Lee Naylor's turn. Yet slipping the ball through someone's legs does not win matches, unless it is the goalkeeper.

The longer the game remained scoreless, the more it encouraged Celtic's followers to turn up the volume. Unless you have been to Celtic Park for one of the truly big occasions it is difficult to appreciate fully the roar of the crowd. Celtic fans are more than just watchers. It is in their DNA. Their nerves work on football and, at the final whistle, the noise spread like a bushfire. Long howls of yearning and emotion. It drummed into Ferguson's head. Saha was on the turf, eyes closed.

And yet Ferguson's men had succeeded for long spells in doing what so few visiting teams do here: quelling the crowd. Great players are inspired by these arenas. They do not feel fear, only a buzz of excitement. United lined up with seen-it-all-before faces and were straight into their rhythm, working the ball from left to right, behind the full-backs. A sense of dread worked its way into the green-and-white hordes. "Where's your famous atmosphere?" the away supporters could be heard cackling. They will regret the fact that the team could not be so cutting.

[HarryHacker]

I reckon Bent's price has now increased by 5 million.

[davidjtayler]

All in all a very frustrating night ...

[totlanh]

Get in there Celtic .Well done the hoops

[mrbojangles]

Sometimes, just sometimes, i love this game

[muckypups]

Sometimes, just sometimes, i love this game

True Mr B, it is a wonderful game. However, if the object of your love is the Champions League...then I suggest you don't get overly excited by your teams chance of participation in the near future..

However, I will agree that we couldn't be making life more difficult for ourselves if we tried.. untimely tinkering in Copenhagen is looking like an outright blunder now.

[Neeranam]

Well done the Celts!

Celtic's manager, Gordon Strachan, said he was struggling to take in the enormity of last night's result and the progression to the last 16 of the Champions League for the first time in the club's history.

They were the first British club to win Europe's finest trophy in 1967.

It doesn't seem long ago that I was living in the same street as Willie Miller, and Fergie, Strachan and them all were winning everything with the dons.

It was nearly as good as watching the England Argenina rugby match

[muckypups]

From the Guardian:

Saha picks bad week for a crisis of confidence

United's striker must recover from his Celtic Park 'nightmare' in time for Chelsea's visit on Sunday

Daniel Taylor

Thursday November 23, 2006

The Guardian

The morning after the night before, and Manchester United were still coming to terms yesterday with an evening when Sir Alex Ferguson was the one Glaswegian at Parkhead whose blood had not been converted to red wine. Ferguson talked about his players "throwing away" the tie and his face hardened when a radio reporter asked him whether he was angry with his players. "I'm not angry with anyone," he replied with his most withering stare. "Maybe with you for asking such stupid questions."

Ferguson, suffice to say, did not enjoy coming off second-best to Gordon Strachan, particularly when he considered the potential repercussions of losing to Celtic. The visit of Benfica on December 6 should not inspire too much trepidation given that United have not lost a Champions League group game at Old Trafford since October 2001 but, after winning their opening three Group F matches, Ferguson is entitled to be aggrieved that qualification has gone down to the wire.

Part of that anger might be directed towards himself, bearing in mind his mistake in resting half his first-choice team when United played FC Copenhagen earlier this month, another match they lost 1-0. The events in Glasgow might have been largely irrelevant for United had Ferguson fielded a full-strength team in Denmark and they had taken the point that was needed to qualify.

Otherwise his main irritation seemed to derive from his players' inability to be more penetrative in attack. In that respect Louis Saha found himself grazing in the scapegoats' paddock yesterday. The Frenchman was apologetic, but the damage to his confidence will not be repaired by the revelations that Gary Neville had correctly guessed he would fail with his 89th-minute penalty. Neville appeared to question Saha's nerve, telling the Celtic captain, Neil Lennon, "His head has gone," an astonishing remark for a player of his status to make and one that will do little to ease his team-mate's anguish going into Sunday's game with Chelsea.

The striker needed consoling by his team-mates and spoke about "living in a nightmare", describing it as one of the most harrowing experiences of his career. "I cannot believe what has happened. I just want to wake up from it. It was a difficult night for everyone but I have to admit I am really sorry for my performance. I need to survive from that. I've said sorry to everyone but a thousand sorrys won't change anything."

In mitigation, it was the first occasion this season when Saha has failed to live up to the demands of replacing Ruud van Nistelrooy. Ferguson has placed a lot of confidence in the France international and will be dismayed by Neville's remarks, which have not been denied. Saha had failed to score when clean through five minutes earlier, wrongly believing he might have been offside, and Neville seemed to cast doubt on whether the striker had the strength of character to cope.

A throwaway remark it may have been but it carries significance considering the battles ahead, starting this weekend. Saha has had a tremendous season but, rightly or wrongly, the comments attributed to Neville will raise questions about whether he is capable of flourishing when the pressure is at its most extreme. There are similarities to the situation recalled by Roy Keane of a player shaking with nerves as the Champions League music blared out before the second leg of the 2002 semi-final against Bayer Leverkusen.

It is unfair, however, for too much blame to be apportioned to one player. United have now lost three successive cup matches 1-0 and, though the damage may be superficial, it is intriguing when compared with their imperious league form.

"We have only ourselves to blame," Ryan Giggs reflected. "Celtic hardly got our of their own half in the first half but when you are on top you have to take your opportunities and we did not do that. Now we have to play Benfica again and it won't be easy."

A year of losing away

United have struggled away against some of Europe's lesser teams in the Champions League. Here are three of their most recent wasted trips

Copenhagen 1 United 0 (1/11/2006)

Marcus Allback, a striker who managed only six league goals in two years at Aston Villa, scores the winner as United freeze in Denmark and lose their perfect record

Benfica 2 United 1 (7/12/2005)

Goals from Geovanni and Beto, after Paul Scholes' opener, mean United suffer the ignominy of finishing bottom of their group - so not even a Uefa Cup place for Sir Alex Ferguson

Lille 1 United 0 (2/11/2005)

Before the match Roy Keane makes his infamous comments on the state of the team to MUTV, during it the injured captain is proved right as a Van Nistelrooy "led" United struggle

This quote amazes me..:

...."The Frenchman was apologetic, but the damage to his confidence will not be repaired by the revelations that Gary Neville had correctly guessed he would fail with his 89th-minute penalty. Neville appeared to question Saha's nerve, telling the Celtic captain, Neil Lennon, "His head has gone," an astonishing remark for a player of his status to make and one that will do little to ease his team-mate's anguish going into Sunday's game with Chelsea."

Surely a player of Nevilles stature should have stepped in and offered the ball to Ronaldo or Rooney if he felt that strongly that Saha was likely to miss...

[Neeranam]

http://media.putfile.com/211106

So are man u through as well to the final 16?

[muckypups]

Sadly not yet.. we need a point against Benfica at Old Trafford to ensure qualification.. normally no problem I'm tempted to say.. however Benfica will qualify by beating us..an anxious night guaranteed for us Reds no doubt..

[Neeranam]

I thought that maybe Fergie was doing his old mate favour by losing so they both went through - obviously not.

[muckypups]

I wish.. (that's me, fair play to the last).. Has to be said that the Chelsea defeat last night hasn't done Barcelona any favours though..

[Neeranam]

Why are Celtic through and Man U not?

They have the same points but Man U a better goal difference.

[mrbojangles]

Why are Celtic through and Man U not?

They have the same points but Man U a better goal difference.

I'm not sure as to the reasons why Celtic are top (being a Man City fan, i don't need to know how the Champs League works ) but Celtic are through because which ever way the game between Benfica and United goes, Celtic will still be either top or second, even if they lose their own final game.

Come on Benfica

[redrus]

Daniel Taylor The Guardian Online

Saha picks bad week for a crisis of confidence

Manchester United need Louis Saha at his best before Chelsea's visit so it's a worry that he seems to have lost his nerve.

November 23, 2006 12:30 AM

The morning after the night before, and Manchester United were still coming to terms yesterday with an evening when Sir Alex Ferguson was the one Glaswegian at Parkhead whose blood had not been converted to red wine. Ferguson talked about his players "throwing away" the tie and his face hardened when a radio reporter asked him whether he was angry with his players. "I'm not angry with anyone," he replied with his most withering stare. "Maybe with you for asking such stupid questions."

Ferguson, suffice to say, did not enjoy coming off second-best to Gordon Strachan, particularly when he considered the potential repercussions of losing to Celtic. The visit of Benfica on December 6 should not inspire too much trepidation given that United have not lost a Champions League group game at Old Trafford since October 2001 but, after winning their opening three Group F matches, Ferguson is entitled to be aggrieved that qualification has gone down to the wire.

Part of that anger might be directed towards himself, bearing in mind his mistake in resting half his first-choice team when United played FC Copenhagen earlier this month, another match they lost 1-0. The events in Glasgow might have been largely irrelevant for United had Ferguson fielded a full-strength team in Denmark and they had taken the point that was needed to qualify.

Otherwise his main irritation seemed to derive from his players' inability to be more penetrative in attack. In that respect Louis Saha found himself grazing in the scapegoats' paddock yesterday. The Frenchman was apologetic, but the damage to his confidence will not be repaired by the revelations that Gary Neville had correctly guessed he would fail with his 89th-minute penalty. Neville appeared to question Saha's nerve, telling the Celtic captain, Neil Lennon, "His head has gone," an astonishing remark for a player of his status to make and one that will do little to ease his team-mate's anguish going into Sunday's game with Chelsea.

The striker needed consoling by his team-mates and spoke about "living in a nightmare", describing it as one of the most harrowing experiences of his career. "I cannot believe what has happened. I just want to wake up from it. It was a difficult night for everyone but I have to admit I am really sorry for my performance. I need to survive from that. I've said sorry to everyone but a thousand sorrys won't change anything."

In mitigation, it was the first occasion this season when Saha has failed to live up to the demands of replacing Ruud van Nistelrooy. Ferguson has placed a lot of confidence in the France international and will be dismayed by Neville's remarks, which have not been denied. Saha had failed to score when clean through five minutes earlier, wrongly believing he might have been offside, and Neville seemed to cast doubt on whether the striker had the strength of character to cope.

A throwaway remark it may have been but it carries significance considering the battles ahead, starting this weekend. Saha has had a tremendous season but, rightly or wrongly, the comments attributed to Neville will raise questions about whether he is capable of flourishing when the pressure is at its most extreme. There are similarities to the situation recalled by Roy Keane of a player shaking with nerves as the Champions League music blared out before the second leg of the 2002 semi-final against Bayer Leverkusen.

It is unfair, however, for too much blame to be apportioned to one player. United have now lost three successive cup matches 1-0 and, though the damage may be superficial, it is intriguing when compared with their imperious league form.

"We have only ourselves to blame," Ryan Giggs reflected. "Celtic hardly got our of their own half in the first half but when you are on top you have to take your opportunities and we did not do that. Now we have to play Benfica again and it won't be easy."

redrus

[redrus]

Do we miss RVN....?

Take The Poll..........!

I vote no.

redrus

[muckypups]

Me too Red.. I voted no. True, at his best he was always there to snap an opportunity when all seemed lost.. but for two years he was almost a periphal player. Saha has delivered this season, strikers miss chances, penalties even.. no cause for real alarm; let's see what Sunday brings.

I must say I felt that our deciding group game in the Champions League was against Copenhagen.. and the wrong time to tinker with a winning team, especially with a relatively comfortable run of fixtures to follow. In my opinion needless pressure has been added.. but I still expect us to qualify.. and comfortably at that...

[redrus]

Me too Red.. I voted no. True, at his best he was always there to snap an opportunity when all seemed lost.. but for two years he was almost a periphal player. Saha has delivered this season, strikers miss chances, penalties even.. no cause for real alarm; let's see what Sunday brings.

I must say I felt that our deciding group game in the Champions League was against Copenhagen.. and the wrong time to tinker with a winning team, especially with a relatively comfortable run of fixtures to follow. In my opinion needless pressure has been added.. but I still expect us to qualify.. and comfortably at that...

We always do things the hard way. I was in Glasgow, I had a top night out anyway, so thats what counts....

redrus

[redrus]

23 November 2006

TORRES UP FOR £25M

MANCHESTER UNITED boss Sir Alex Ferguson has made a new move for Atletico Madrid striker Fernando Torres - but has been told the price is a stunning £25million. (we know this already though, as his buyout clause is 26 million.... )

Now the Old Trafford money men are deciding whether to meet the valuation in January.

Fergie has resumed a quest to sign the Spain star, 22, as he realises they need more firepower to win the title.

redrus

[muckypups]

We always do things the hard way. I was in Glasgow, I had a top night out anyway, so thats what counts....

redrus

Perfect.. and anyway, if all goes to plan us and the Hoops in the next phase is not a bad result eh?

[mrbojangles]

Why are Celtic through and Man U not?

They have the same points but Man U a better goal difference.

I'm not sure as to the reasons why Celtic are top (being a Man City fan, i don't need to know how the Champs League works ) but Celtic are through because which ever way the game between Benfica and United goes, Celtic will still be either top or second, even if they lose their own final game.

Red, muckypups or nev. Can you answer this question or not

[redrus]

1 Celtic 5 3 0 2 7 6 1 9

2 Man Utd 5 3 0 2 7 4 3 9

3 Benfica 5 2 1 2 6 5 1 7

4 FC Copenhagen 5 1 1 3 2 7 -5 4

Celtic do not have the superior GD, I'd hazard a guess they had a better result in Copenhagen than us....!

redrus

[mrbojangles]

Celtic do not have the superior GD, I'd hazard a guess they had a better result in Copenhagen than us....!

I've got an excuse, as City have never been (and may never be ) in the champions league. But come on Red, you lot have been in it for years and you still have to HAZARD a guess as to the rules

[redrus]

Celtic do not have the superior GD, I'd hazard a guess they had a better result in Copenhagen than us....!

I've got an excuse, as City have never been (and may never be ) in the champions league. But come on Red, you lot have been in it for years and you still have to HAZARD a guess as to the rules

We don't normally have this problem, we just wait to get knocked out properly...........

redrus

[redrus]

Well thats frettled my welter, they haven't played in Copenhagen yet....! LINK....!!!!

Why the **** have Celtic gone through....?

redrus

[mrbojangles]

Why the **** have Celtic gone through....?

As in my post above, i know why they have gone through. Cos no matter what happens in the next game, they can't finish any worse than 2nd. But why are they above United?

[redrus]

Why the **** have Celtic gone through....?

As in my post above, i know why they have gone through. Cos no matter what happens in the next game, they can't finish any worse than 2nd. But why are they above United?

If Copenhagen beat Celtic and, if Benfica beat us, Celtic drop to third, depending on goal difference.....!

No-one should have gone through yet....!

redrus

[mrbojangles]

Why the **** have Celtic gone through....?

As in my post above, i know why they have gone through. Cos no matter what happens in the next game, they can't finish any worse than 2nd. But why are they above United?

If Copenhagen beat Celtic and, if Benfica beat us, Celtic drop to third, depending on goal difference.....!

No-one should have gone through yet....!

Factually wrong there, Red. All the punters and Strachan have said that Celtic are through already and they are actually above Utd in the table. The only thing i can think of, is that it is something to do with the game you played against Celtic and maybe (even though away goals don't count perse) the 2 goals they scored against you at OT, may have a bearing

[muckypups]

I'm confused.. but:

Group F

Team P W D L F A Pts

Celtic 5 3 0 2 7 6 9

Manchester United 5 3 0 2 7 4 9

Benfica 5 2 1 2 6 5 7

FC Copenhagen 5 1 1 2 2 7 4

* Teams receive three points for a win and one point for a draw.

* The top two teams from each group qualify for the second round.

* If two or more sides finish level on points, the positions will be decided thus:

i) Higher number of points obtained in the group matches played between the teams in question.

ii) Superior goal difference in the group matches played between the teams in question.

iii) Higher number of goals scored away from home in the group matches played between the teams in question.

iv) Superior goal difference from ALL group matches.

v) Higher number of goals scored.

vi) Coefficient points accumulated by the club in question, as well as its association, over the previous five seasons.

I think clause iii) is the clincher.. United winning 3-2 at OT and Celtic winning 1-0.. their away goals proving decisive.. jeez, complex (and potentially depressing) if that is the case..