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^^^

Sure, at the individual teacher level.

But you'd think that a large school would have someone in management who could figure out that tone is going to be one of the major hurdles to be faced by a farang student, and that it should at least be referred to in coursework.

To ignore the tones while trying to teach a tonal language seems a pretty incompetent way to proceed,,,, :)

HI everyone,

sorry I haven't time to read the whole thread but I can let you know the AUA school in Chiang Mai (June 2009) does NOT follow their "advertised" teaching methodology, or use their own book (for level 2 at least).

I tried two of the teachers (for level 2) and I wouldn't have even know I was in the same school - if I didn't know it beforehand.

I would have dropped out if they would have given me my money back.

I am a serious learner and not doing this for "fun", which seemed to be what most of the people in the class were doing, and seemed happy with it.

There's too many details to list, but it was very disappointing for ME: wanting to really learn to be fluent, learn proper tone production, SPEAK during the class, repetition, understand when to use words that are very similar but have different meanings, etc... A serious amount of time was spent with the teacher telling stories about Chiang Mai and Farang and (her) really enjoying it.

the Chiang Mai University introductory class is similar (dec 2008), overcrowded, and if you're not looking for fun it would not recommend it.

Both classes get sidetracked by students with jokes, irrelevant questions, teachers pointing out differences ('inferiorities') of farang (really!).

Both classes you have to mostly listen to other students speak thai incorrectly, with very little correction (if any) by the teacher so you are learning from the students (incorrectly) during this time and memorizing incorrect grammar and tone.

Also they definitely play favorites when answering questions, with apparently important questions being ingored for ones that interest the instructor.

I am not making this up, and it cost me about 7500 baht total.

I am from America.

Hope this helps,

Jeff

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While I know nothing of the AUA branch in Chiang Mai, I can attest to the fact that the AUA school in Bangkok is initially a listening ONLY type of school.

It uses the "ALG" aka "Automatic Language Growth" method when learning thai. While I did research into the methodology, I was less than impressed. The innovators of the ALG system allege that after 600 hours of listening to two thai people interact on a stage using a variety of props, you will magically be able to converse in thai to thais. This is done with ZERO student interaction, no question/answers in class and not actually speaking ANY thai at all in the classroom. A dubious claim at best, but with that being said, I did meet several people who had attended 300+ hours and could speak some sort of semi-intelligible thai. Although upon further questioning; they were also learning thai with other resources.

To their credit the teachers or "actors" at AUA are innovative, interesting, theatrical and being thai nationals, speak clear thai. They tend to speak at normal speed and cadence so it's hard to hear the word breaks if you're not used to listening to thais speak. On the up side, if you buy blocks of hours, it's by far the most inexpensive thai language school to attend. The classes are offered many, many hours a day, and you can go at your convenience.

If I am not mistaken, AUA is one of the hardest schools to get an education visa from. Last time I was there they said you must attend class 30 hours a week to qualify for them to help you get your visa. Most private thai language schools stick to the Ministry of Education's minimum of 4 hours a week spread over a year to get a visa.

AUA does have a reading and writing course, but you must test into if you don't attend their whacky "learn to speak by listening only" class before hand. I spoke to the lady who oversees enrollment and it appears the test is such that even a marginal reader of thai, and/or a very basic speaker could probably get into the class if they pushed it, and were motivated to learn once they got in.

The good news is AUA sells all the old text books that they used (before they converted to the ALG method) to teach speaking, reading and writing thai at the bookstore. I couldn't get the cassettes that go with the speaking thai books (that shows you how old the material and method is) as they are all out of stock. Maybe bit-torrent has them I dunno.

I am sorry to hear the experience the previous poster had with CMU as I’ve got their materials and they seem well thought out, building on previous lessons, and many people I know up there have taken their class to great benefit. I guess its up to the individual to make sure they get bang for their baht where ever they attend. I for one would have no problem letting someone know if I was unhappy, or felt too little time was spent on learning the language.

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TL-C has a perfectly workable tone marking system

maM-maR-maH-maF-maL

Or it could be adapted from a language with similar tones (ie Vietnamese)

ma mả mã má mạ

The fact that there's no standard way to transcribe this, shouldn't stop schools informing students that Thai is a tonal language, surely.

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I have some experience with this periodically over the last five years on extended stays having attended for a while at the Somchat, Jentana's and Smile languages school - in terms of materials and teaching standards there is little difference. In fact the two ladies behind Jentana and Smile schools both taught at Nisa school ( I think if that is the one at Sathorn) before setting up on their own.

The teachers are lowly paid and have to work long hours so staff turnover is high and their hearts are not always in it. As a beginner as well it is frustrating to get a new teacher with poor English who will just smile when you ask valid questions - If I was to recommend one of these schools it would be Jentana's purely for Jentana herself - she is a well-organised lady and a very good laugh as well.

I had previously attended group classes at London university and did go and look at Unity and AUA - I am sorry but I didn't feel I could possibly learn in a group situation again with the continuous mis-pronunciations ( when it got round to me I was probably the worse culprit) so attended the schools offering one-one tuition. What I have found is needed is a real teacher who will correct you everytime you make a mistake not a shy young lady who sits smiling as you utter gobbledygook.

Now that I live in Thailand I have decided it is an absolute must to finally learn the language. I considered going back to one of the schools but recall how hit and miss it was with teachers. I was pleased to find that one of the teachers I had previously encountered was still teaching but on a freelance basis - i learn about 4 times a week at home and in a short time have made considerable progress. I would have no hesitation to recommend this lady as she has been teaching for over 10 years and has helped many nationalities to fluency - for the first time i feel i will be able to achieve that. Anyway I know one is not supposed to advertise but I would happily pass on contact details to anyone seriously wishing to learn.

Cheers BB

Hi Cheers BB,

Would you please pass on her contact info?

Thank you

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Walen School of Thai has a new branch in Ladprao (Bangkok) in the Elephant building, tower B, 16th floor. We are open for business there as of today 1st August. If Ladprao is a more convinient location for you, you are welcome to relocate to the new branch. Also if you are looking for a Thai school and Ladprao is where you live perhaps this is what you have been looking for, a good school near your place.

Regards

Walen School of Thai - Two locations in Bangkok

www.thaiwalen.com

For priority service please register

www.dcs.walenschool.com/1mw290910.eng

Edited by macwalen
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COMMENT: This site should be renamed the McW site! dominated by McW.

Any language students out there able to help with my query as have no responses?

Regards SOLOMAN

Agreed. I wish the moderator(s) would step in. I don't think sponsors should be allowed to post in the forum at all, it taints the whole atmosphere.

:):D:D

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COMMENT: This site should be renamed the McW site! dominated by McW.

Any language students out there able to help with my query as have no responses?

Regards SOLOMAN

Agreed. I wish the moderator(s) would step in. I don't think sponsors should be allowed to post in the forum at all, it taints the whole atmosphere.

:):D:D

They do step in, but only if you post negative views of Wallen, even if they are just your honest opinion after going there! I don't think really good places NEED to advertise as they get Students by word of mouth IF they are any good.

Edited by dragonfly94
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Wallen = Walen

I am afraid you do not know much about marketing khun Dragonfly94.

What about Coke? Do they need to advertise? We all know it is a nice drink and everybody knows it but they still do.

Have you ever seen BMW advertised?

Rolex?

Are those companies producing bad products? Maybe just the word of mouth would be sufficient. Also for the record we do get a lot of students by word of mouth.

Looking at your negative posts (some deleted) looks like you are placing them because you obviously do not like us or perhaps of other reasons which you did not explain well enough. If you just like abusing people it will not take you very far. Moderators delete posts only if they have a reason.

So tell us clearly Dragonfly94 what exactly do you have against Walen? How many lessons have you taken? I would like to ask students about you as a student, perhaps the problem is not with the school but with you. Could that be the case?

Regards

Walen School of Thai

www.thaiwalen.com

For priority service please register

www.dcs.walenschool.com/1mw290910.eng

Edited by macwalen
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I wasn't so impressed with Baan Phasaa Thai but maybe it was my teacher. I think they covered a lot of material but didn't really make me work at it. Also spoke English to me too much.

I have had 1:1 at Berlitz for about 7 months and like that. So far all conversation, no reading & writing. I'd say the teacher speaks Thai to me 99% of the time. She just forces me to talk, talk and talk in Thai adding words and grammar as we go along. I consider myself a slow learner for languages but do get a few complements on my Thai, including accent, and I'll have to give all that credit to my teacher and the Berlitz method. Downside: expensive. (they have a web site)

Do think I need to bear down on the reading & writing and now sure how I will approach that. I another 1:1 teacher my company provides and she introduces some (forget the name of that school as she comes to me). Some of the software is good from drilling on some of this.

I thought about a private tutor for just conversation. Ended up searching on the Thailovelinks web site and have made some friends that like to speak Thai with me. The best seem to be 20’s college educated so they have the book English fresh in their minds but haven’t had work experience in an multi-national or situation where they are confident English speakers. I’ve found a few who are fairly natural teachers – know when to correct and when to just let me rattle on, have an ear to understand, etc. That has been a win-win for both of us. We have some fun, go do things, have simple conversations, I of course pick up the tab but it’s cheaper than a teacher most times while being fun and natural. My experience is that if someone has strong English skills the conversation just ends up in English too much and likewise if they don’ speak any English it’s hard for them to coach me.

Good luck,

Good strategies ~ I agree ~ making friends and using Thai in "natural" settings is vital... I have had a lot of success with similar methods... You'd be surprised how much Thai I have via getting nice chatty massages, too... :D

For a year, I lived in a smallish Thai village in Chiang Mai where I was the only farang. And when I went shopping at the local market, chatted with neighbors or talked with my girlfriend I ONLY USED THAI ~ LOTS OF WORK looking up things in the dictionary at first ~ but the time gives dividends and is like "money in the bank" for language training...

To converse at normal speed, you must immerse yourself on many levels... Friends, locals, neighbors, TV, radio, MUSIC is GREAT!!!

At my home, I did not get cable and only listened to broadcast THAI TV ALL THE TIME I WAS AT HOME ~ even fell asleep to Thai TV ~ that way I could rack up maybe 4-5 hours a night of listening to THAI TV EVERY DAY! At first (1st month), it gave me a headache, but soon (maybe 3 months) I was understanding more and more...

After 10 months, I felt I had a LOT of good listening comprehension at normal speed and then that helped my speaking skills and speed, too...

The keys are repetition, self study and immersion with the Thai media and your Thai friends ~ variety is important!

Last year, I taught 6 classes at Chula in my field using THAI as the language of instruction (believe me, it was too slow to use English ~ much easier to use Thai to increase class discussion...) All department meetings were in Thai, too. As well as all conferences, too...

So, now, my spoken Thai is at a rather high conversational level and high for comprehension, too... But, it is a constant process of improving learning and understanding...

...Just think of how long you have been studying English to understand this email at a high level???

Same same for Thai ~ you must amass THOUSANDS OF HOURS OF ACTIVE AND PASSIVE LISTENING AND TALKING...

Now, I am starting to read and write in Thai at a much higher level, but it will be more years before I can say I am a really fluent reader or writer...

I am also a musician and that helps greatly to hear the subtleties of Thai and its tones....

Remember, you are your own best teacher and you know what you want and need to learn at what time is right for you...

Enjoy the journey...

Kaw hai mee chok dee na krab,

:)

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Holy cow!

Macwalen, every post you make is like watching you put another nail in your own coffin.

There is nothing more frustrating than having the "management" attempt to put the blame back on the person making critical remarks.

Regarding the teachers. I have not been in the class and I am not able to exactly picture what it looked like but you were the only person who complained. I have spoken with both teachers and perhaps you overreacted a little. They are actually well trained. As a matter of fact I train teachers on a regular basis.

"I wasn't in the class, so I don't know what is really going on (but that won't stop me from proceeding as if I had been), but no one else complained so you must be the troublemaker and the teachers, whom I train my wonderful self regularly, make it out that YOU were the problem and were overreacting."

And then a litany of defensive posts.

I thought my years in management school were more or less exercises in common sense, but you take the cake. You should assume the student is right and make every effort to not only make things right for him, but for others who glean information from these exchanges as well.

Looking over your posts and your tenor, I wouldn't come near your school. (And you will probably reply in the vein of, "Great, we don't want a student like you anyway!")

Tuktong na krab!!! (That's right!!!)

Mai dong yung gab rongrien muen nee krab... (Don't get involved with a school like this... )

Kao gamlang ateebai mag gern bai (He is explaining too much )

~ sadaeng waa kao mai sonjai nakrien kid yang rai.... ( ~ showing that he is not interested in what student/s think about this... )

Hen duay mai krab? (Do you see the same? Do you agree? ;-)

Kaw hai chok dee rongrien nee... (May this school have good luck... )

Kao dong mee chok dee nae nawn! (They should definitely need good luck!)

:)

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Hi All

We offer effective Thai language courses, but our motive for posting to this forum is not necessarily a direct promotion of our school, but more to advise you of what we have learned in our research into effective methods for learning a second language.

Whichever school or course you choose – here are some things for you to consider:

1. If you learn by doing, seeing, feeling and experiencing, as well as listening, your knowledge of the language will grow far more naturally and it will become much more deeply engrained at a subconscious level. Think about how easy we pick up our native language as children, and consider how we learn. Research shows that these methods can be adopted into adult learning as well. So choose a course that engages all of your senses in the learning process. A course that helps you to relate a word to a particular feeling or action - For example - learn the word laugh, by hearing it repeatedly while you are laughing. Or learn the word "jump" while you are jumping up and down. Learn the numbers while being told (in Thai) to jump up and down once, twice, three times etc....

2. By learning from an action or feeling, you will learn to "think" in Thai. If you learn from a vocabulary list, you will only learn the translation, and will constantly need to translate from your own language before speaking. This will inhibit any conversations.

3. Listening plays a huge role in learning the Thai language. As it is a tonal language, your ears need to become much more attuned to listening for changes in note, in order to interpret the meaning. However many westerners may struggle with this as they are not used to listening so acutely. A good course will therefore use some kind of visual aid to help you become more familiar with the tones - arm signals for example, to indicate rising, falling etc.....

4. Make sure that any course introduces you to new words, and then repeatedly re-introduces the words in varied formats. This way you will be able to draw on your memory of many different scenarios relating to that particular word. The varied formats could be actions, sound files, games and videos of real life scenarios.

5. Make sure that the school or course you use really does understand the Thai culture. This goes without saying really... but the best way to understand the Thai culture is to be taught by a Thai-speaking person. This is particularly important when learning Thai as it is what is known as a "HIGH CONTEXT" language. They cannot use tone to express emotion, and they do not like to lose face... with this in mind you really need to become familiar with what is assumed to be "understood" among Thai people, given the context of a situation.

6. Reading and writing also plays a vital role in learning to speak Thai. Although you may not be interested in the reading and writing aspect of the Thai language... having some knowledge of the alphabet will assist you immensely when learning to speak. You will start to gain much more assistance from things such as signposts for example....

There are many other things to consider... but I hope these points help you sieve through some of the many options available to you...

Most of all - remember... the Thai language is fun to learn, enjoy your journey into the culture and the language...

Good luck!!

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@LantaSchool

Thanks for this nice summary, and I don’t wish to unduly criticise what seems a well-intentioned post; however, there are a couple of myths here about the psychology of language acquisition and about the Thai language I should like to point out for those just starting out and choosing a language school.

Point 5 about Thai being a ‘high-context’ language seems right enough, but it’s not quite accurate to say Thais cannot use ‘tone’ the way other languages do. Thai is ‘tonal’, but the word ‘tone’ has a very specific, and quite limited application in reference to Thai. Like English, Thai speakers can and do use intonation, as well as vary stress, pitch, volume and tempo (all of which may generally, if inaccurately, be connoted by the word English word ‘tone’ in the wider sense) to reflect emotions. The sound of an angry voice, to take a blunt example, can be similarly recognised in both Thai and English by a speakers’ intonation, stress, volume and so on even if one has no knowledge or understanding of the vocabulary. The idea that because Thai is a ‘tonal’ language, emotions can only be understood in context is, at best, a bit of an over-simplification. Switch on channel 3, close your eyes, and even a beginner will be able to tell the differene between two lovers smooching and two 'ladies' cat fighting!

Points 1 and 2 are more of a worry in terms of misleading new language learners. I agree physical activities can make language learning fun and interesting and can help to cognitively cement new vocabulary. However, that is not to say that this is i. the only way or ii. the best way to learn a language. People respond positively to different kinds of teaching methods. Personally, I would not enjoy going to a class where a teacher tried to make me engage in “child-like” learning games. To imply that people who share my aversion to this kind of 'role play' are reducing their chances of successfully acquiring a new language is, at best, misleading.

It is also manifestly false that learning from a vocab list will condemn you to translation as stated in point 2. I’d hazard a guess that most of those reading this post who have picked up Thai as a second language learned ห้วเราะ in just that way and can use it, and much other vocab, quite reflexively. Whether someone translates before parsing meaning has nothing to do with how they learned words but with the frequency in which they meet and use those expresssions.

Finally, if you're choosing a school for the first time, please beware the BS about 'natural learning'. Despite what a lot of ‘quick-fix’ language schools say to generate business (i’m not suggesting this about Lanta, i don’t know anything about them, my point is general), there is NO valid research that shows adults can learn a language like a child.

Our cognitive abilities are utterly unalike, not least because children learn a language while discovering the world, developing social interaction skills and expanding their cognitive and conceptual abilities. Language plays an essential role in their psychological development. They are hard-wiring their brains through language as they physically and psychologically mature. For adults, this process has already taken place, which means adult language learns have always to deal with interference from their native language and the habitual hard-wiring of their brain. This point is so widely accepted in academic circles, its barely credible that so many schools get away with perpetuating the "learn naturally like a child" myth. Of course, it sells seats, but I would strongly advise anyone looking for a good school to avoid this kind of charlatanism (indeed, it would be interesting to hear from any of the more advanced non-native speakers of Thai who populate this site whether ANY of them had learned 'naturally like a child' - i'm betting my rather inedible hat that the number is absolute zero!)

All that said, once again, I do think you made a nice summary of some points worth sharing.

Edited by SoftWater
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@LantaSchool

Thanks for this nice summary, and I don’t wish to unduly criticise what seems a well-intentioned post; however, there are a couple of myths here about the psychology of language acquisition and about the Thai language I should like to point out for those just starting out and choosing a language school.

Point 5 about Thai being a ‘high-context’ language seems right enough, but it’s not quite accurate to say Thais cannot use ‘tone’ the way other languages do. Thai is ‘tonal’, but the word ‘tone’ has a very specific, and quite limited application in reference to Thai. Like English, Thai speakers can and do use intonation, as well as vary stress, pitch, volume and tempo (all of which may generally, if inaccurately, be connoted by the word English word ‘tone’ in the wider sense) to reflect emotions. The sound of an angry voice, to take a blunt example, can be similarly recognised in both Thai and English by a speakers’ intonation, stress, volume and so on even if one has no knowledge or understanding of the vocabulary. The idea that because Thai is a ‘tonal’ language, emotions can only be understood in context is, at best, a bit of an over-simplification. Switch on channel 3, close your eyes, and even a beginner will be able to tell the differene between two lovers smooching and two 'ladies' cat fighting!

Points 1 and 2 are more of a worry in terms of misleading new language learners. I agree physical activities can make language learning fun and interesting and can help to cognitively cement new vocabulary. However, that is not to say that this is i. the only way or ii. the best way to learn a language. People respond positively to different kinds of teaching methods. Personally, I would not enjoy going to a class where a teacher tried to make me engage in “child-like” learning games. To imply that people who share my aversion to this kind of 'role play' are reducing their chances of successfully acquiring a new language is, at best, misleading.

It is also manifestly false that learning from a vocab list will condemn you to translation as stated in point 2. I’d hazard a guess that most of those reading this post who have picked up Thai as a second language learned ห้วเราะ in just that way and can use it, and much other vocab, quite reflexively. Whether someone translates before parsing meaning has nothing to do with how they learned words but with the frequency in which they meet and use those expresssions.

Finally, if you're choosing a school for the first time, please beware the BS about 'natural learning'. Despite what a lot of ‘quick-fix’ language schools say to generate business (i’m not suggesting this about Lanta, i don’t know anything about them, my point is general), there is NO valid research that shows adults can learn a language like a child.

Our cognitive abilities are utterly unalike, not least because children learn a language while discovering the world, developing social interaction skills and expanding their cognitive and conceptual abilities. Language plays an essential role in their psychological development. They are hard-wiring their brains through language as they physically and psychologically mature. For adults, this process has already taken place, which means adult language learns have always to deal with interference from their native language and the habitual hard-wiring of their brain. This point is so widely accepted in academic circles, its barely credible that so many schools get away with perpetuating the "learn naturally like a child" myth. Of course, it sells seats, but I would strongly advise anyone looking for a good school to avoid this kind of charlatanism (indeed, it would be interesting to hear from any of the more advanced non-native speakers of Thai who populate this site whether ANY of them had learned 'naturally like a child' - i'm betting my rather inedible hat that the number is absolute zero!)

All that said, once again, I do think you made a nice summary of some points worth sharing.

SoftWater makes some interesting points...

I disagree with the ideas about the brain's "hard wiring." Sure, that is true to a point, but SoftWater overgeneralizes...

More and more the neuroscientists agree that people's brains are much more plastic than many people think...

Think brain plasticity and lifelong learning...

Once "commonly accepted" ideas of learning and the brain development have been soundly rejected. Take the examples of stroke patients who suddenly find that they have "new interests and emerging skills" that they "never" considered before the brain injury of the stroke...

Much depends on many "soft factors" such as nutrition, exercise, social support, friends, varied stimulation, personal attitudes about learning and reinforcement of learning progress...

Sure "book learning" is helpful and necessary but social and natural reinforcement is essential too...

Think broadly about how you learn and what creates success for you as a learner ~ this varies greatly among individuals... (read this sentence again! ;-)

Kid gwaang gwaang ~ mai dong kid kaep!

Think broadly ~ don't think narrowly!

Good luck to everyone with their studies ~ a beginner's mind can be very helpful ~ nothing about these approaches is "the best" ~ what matters is what works best for you ~ and even that can and will change with time...

:)

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More and more the neuroscientists agree that people's brains are much more plastic than many people think...

Think brain plasticity and lifelong learning...

There is no inconsistency between the points you make and my points against the myth of the so-called natural learning methods. Yes, the neurons and neural paths in our brains make new connections, both when the brain is injured and, more generally, whenever we learn a new skill. But with all due respect, that is irrelevant to whether one can replicate the cognitive and linguistic learning processes of a partially developed infant/child’s brain in an already mature and properly functioning brain. I think you’ll be hard pressed to find any neuroscientist on the planet who would sign up to that idea.

But there’s no reason why anyone should take my word for it – better that before you buy into some pseudo-scientific sales pitch, do your own research about their claims. Ask the schools what independent studies can they cite that would support their theory? Lanta say their ‘research’ has shown that…but the use of the word ‘research’ should immediately raise eyebrows. Promoting your own methodology by citing your methodology is not what the word ‘research’ normally connotes. “Research” implies independently verifiable studies. And I didn’t see Lanta rush to cite any of these.

AUA is a good example of a school with pseudo-scientific claims – this school states in its sales leaflet that they have never seen a student master Thai who has not learned via the natural method.

I’d love to know what exactly this claim means and what evidence is it based on.

What does ‘master Thai’ mean? = equivalent to a native speaker? That sets the bar to high.

What does ‘never seen’ mean? = they haven’t gone out and found all the very competent Thai speakers that are out there who didn’t go to their school? Then they didn’t look very hard.

And notice that the so-called claim is a negative – but where is the positive evidence?

If their system was the only way to properly learn Thai there should be plenty of evidence to show how successful it is. (e.g., most if not all of those very competent Thai speakers on this site and elsewhere must presumably have gone to AUA…I don’t think so…but let’s ask the forum.

Q: Has anyone done ALL and ONLY AUA’s natural learning method, and can they demonstrate that their Thai is as proficient as a native speaker (because that’s what AUA’s claim amounts to..)?

Can’t wait to be proved wrong ☺

Edited by SoftWater
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Last year, I taught 6 classes at Chula in my field using THAI as the language of instruction (believe me, it was too slow to use English ~ much easier to use Thai to increase class discussion...)

What field is that?

I was under the impression that the only foreign instructors at Chula were those teaching English or those teaching subject fields in international programs (in which case they are supposed to teach in English not Thai)?

Edited by SoftWater
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