American man killed in Krabi - son severely injured

[kdw512]

Outrageous. Daily tourist blood spills and oil spills tarnish the land of [phony] smiles tourism industry.

[chooka]

One really doesn't know who was to blame , but killing someone is going a bit far .

I dare say the Americans had had a few drinks and were in the party spirit .

My experience of Americans is that they can be very loud , arrogant and overbearing .

They may indeed have brought this on themselves .

Same can be said of Brits and almost any nationality except the Dutch these people are total angels.

There are actually surveys that have been done in regards to the rudist tourist when they are outside there own country, Americans rank 5TH behind French #1, Austrailians #2, Brits #3, and Russians #4. RIP

That's terrible. Aussies only number 2 when we make up the largest portion of tourists on the island we should be number 1. More work to be done I think it's not good for our reputation. In Bali we are Numero Uno

Edited August 1, 2013 by chooka

[chooka]

A terrible tragedy and never should of happened. Going by the story and only the story it sounds like the tourists were being obnoxious and were drunk and may have been the instigators.

[monkey4u]

RIp Yank

I guess the thing to learn here is

DONT knock the Tip Box to the floor.

We are too lazy, stoned or drunk to pick it up but we will kill you

[Tatsujin]

I find it ridiculous how so many posters in this forum routinely take something like this and turn it into a 'Thai vs. farang' thing. This is a case of drunk people (note: people, not Thai or farang) getting involved in a stupid bar fight that escelated to a point where someone was tragically killed. I worked in the bar business for 10 years and have seen similar incidents happen many times; 99% of the time they have nothing to do with race and everything to do with boozy aggression. They usually don't end up with someone getting killed but they very well can - and do - anywhere in the world. Incredible: a bar fight breaks out and someone gets killed - let's blame it all on Thai society!

mmmmm . . . can't speak about the USA or other countries, but I don't remember that many people getting stabbed, beaten or killed in any bar fights in the UK.

And as we are in Thailand, and it involved Thai + foreigners, surely it is indeed a Thai vs Farang thing? Yes, it's stupid, yes, it involved alcohol, but do you not think that (in most instances) it's the Thai's generally that take things too far and overreact to most things with violence in these situations?

(and before you say it, yes I'm generalising and oversimplifying things, but I think it's appropriate here)

What part of the UK were you living in? Drinking in Claridges or something. Do a bit of research and you'll see the extent of the Thursday, Friday and Saturday night alcohol fuelled violence in most UK city and town centers. Why do you think UK bars and pubs employ "bouncers". Nottingham and Gloucester were very dangerous places on those nights to name but two. As for Blackpool, Gt Yarmouth and Bournemouth - ever been out in one of these on a weekend night?

I feel vastly safer in Thailand than I do in most UK city and town centres.

Thanks for the "claridges" sarcasm. I lived 15 years in Moss Side in Manchester so know very well the levels of violence that "can" occur in the UK. The difference typically with most of these bar fight situations is that people aren't generally killed in the UK, here they are. Get it?

[Tatsujin]

Hate to tell you this guys but this happens a lot in the USA. Go to some road house bar in the middle of nowhere with rednecks and bikers and see what happens. You better not look at anyone the wrong way or walk in as a stranger. Being from Texas where there is omly 1 bar every 50 miles I have seen many guys stabbed, dragged behind pickups and the like and some killed. The local law doesn't care or will take the time to investigate.

Great, you're talking about "locals" . . . but how many "tourists" get killed in this way over there?

Maybe that's because the 'tourists' in the US don't behave like drunken aggressive idiots like the 'tourists' in Thailand so often do?..

I agree that in a lot of cases, the foreigners are over the top with the alcohol and the behaviour, BUT . . . Thailand is the one welcoming them here with open arms to spend their cash, in a tourist destination, so I'm sorry, the Thai's need to chill out a little bit more, handle things in a different way, and accept that if you want tourists of that ilk, you'll get some problems.

Having said all of that. If you think foreign tourists are bad when they are drunk, have you never seen Thai men when they get drunk? Run a mile.

[BestBitterPhuket]

The American embassy has to follow up this case. Otherwise there will be no justice. Thailand is on a dangerous path when it comes to their tourist industry. Tourists and expats are not safe anymore. It's the third American murdered in Thailand in 3 weeks, and I bet none of the murderers will get the death sentence or life in prison.

[bkkfaranguy]

One really doesn't know who was to blame , but killing someone is going a bit far .

I dare say the Americans had had a few drinks and were in the party spirit .

My experience of Americans is that they can be very loud , arrogant and overbearing .

They may indeed have brought this on themselves .

Same can be said of Brits and almost any nationality except the Dutch these people are total angels.

There are actually surveys that have been done in regards to the rudist tourist when they are outside there own country, Americans rank 5TH behind French #1, Austrailians #2, Brits #3, and Russians #4. RIP

That's terrible. Aussies only number 2 when we make up the largest portion of tourists on the island we should be number 1. More work to be done I think it's not good for our reputation. In Bali we are Numero Uno

No worries mate, that was a world wide survey, I am sure you are number 1 here just like Indonesia and the Philippines! Cheers

[pogal]

This type of ridiculously insane situation seems to happen with more and more frequency. And are we just hearing about a fraction of the violent crime committed here?

Yes, you are hearing a small part of what happens around Thailand. I deal with foreigners daily who have problems, from theft to assault and occasionally death. I can only talk about the Sukumvit/Param 4 area I work, but I would easily say you hear less than 1% about farang problems there.

As for the Thai news system, concerning Thai's it's even less.

It's probably the same in many large communities around the world, that most assaults are not reported, since murders and other events take up the headlines. I'm not saying it's different here in Thailand with a population of 60M. I'm just saying, I deal with farang problems almost daily and am surprised sometimes it's not in the local farang news.

[slipperylobster]

Who knows what happened? An American, drunk, with his son in Thailand. I can’t imagine he wasn’t arrogent and brought shit down on himself.

1. What knows what happened..... (The son and everyone there)

2. An American drunk.................... (Could have been any farang)

3. Can't Imagine he wasn't arrogant (Why not? Many people are)

4. Brought shit down on himself (No excuse for murder here)

Nobody brings murder down on himself. Your logic fails you.

[SteeleJoe]

BradinAsia wrote:

Anyone who's lived in Texas and frequented bars there should be familiar with drunken obnoxious Texans.

Some folks seem to have a special gift for getting too drunk, becoming too obnoxious, abusing people, then

starting fights and often killing someone -- or getting themselves killed. Texans seem to specialize in this all

over the world. Should be no surprise that this could happen in Thailand as well.

Based on the information given in the news reports as well as my experience over the years in both Texas

and Thailand, this looks very much like another typical Texas style incident.

Some folks will sympathize with the abusers. Others, like me, will sympathize with anyone (including Thais)

who have to endure such barbarous behavior.

I think you mean (going by your posting history) ESPECIALLY Thais.

It's a rather extraordinary post. The problem is Texas?! And the ALLEGED actions of the tourists were "barbarous" but the people who killed one and seriously injured the other are victims deserving sympathy...

Edited August 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[chooka]

Refuse to pay a buck fifty cab fare and throw a paper cup at a taxi driver (allegedly) and get hacked up by a machete wielding cab driver. Help break up a bar fight and later get shot by the jackass involved in the fight. Refuse to stop singing and knock a tip box over and get stabbed to death in the stomach. Isn't their something a bit wrong with this picture?

Killing tourists and expats seems to solution for any "loss of face" nowadays. Has it always been this way or does it seem to be escalating?

If I had it to do over again, I really reconsider my decision to move here. But I've invested too much time, money, and have extended (Thai) family that I support...can't bail now. This is a dangerous place to live and to visit.

My condolences to the Carter family. I am very sorry for your loss.

Correct me if I am wrong but the opening story doesn't indicate that he was killed for knocking over the tip box. He apparently died (RIP) during a 2nd altercation where he has confronted the musicians outside the venue (I presume whilst they were taking a break) pushing one over and sitting on his chest which caused the Thai to have problems breathing. People can actually die from this, commonly called Asphyxia. The thai has apparently grabbed an object within arms reach and unfortunately it has pierced his stomach.

I am only commenting on the OP and not saying what is right or wrong. Given the story alone the Thai would have a decent argument for self defence in court. A decent barrister would argue that his client was being deprived of oxygen and feared that he was going to die if he didn't get the guy off his chest and he used reasonable force and did not intend to kill the victim. I don't know how big the thai or the tourist was but if the tourist was a much larger person this would go in favour of his argument. There is nothing to suggest that the Thai was armed with any type of weapon prior to being confronted by the tourist.

[Treborz]

This appears to be a photo of the band taken from their facebook page.

[slipperylobster]

I got to say, and it will make everyone happy that this is my last post, but killings of tourists need to be legally challenged. Lets not Ass-u-me that tourists deserve death for bad behavior. A simple banning/chastising/night in jail should do the trick. The fact is that certain people just love to say that certain Nationalities deserve dying for their behavior. In Thailand, killings are shrugged off/paid off and excused because of the support you give for that. One day, you will be in a bar with a loved one, possibly your birthday or last day on the beach before going back to a miserable job. Then you might possible become drunk and disorderly. If you insult somebody and act badly, they you are deserving of the same fate?

[catweazle]

This appears to be a photo of the band taken from their facebook page.

IS IT A SURPRISE that the musicians on the photo perfectly fit my description earlier in my longer comment on page 7... ?

Edited August 1, 2013 by catweazle

[SteeleJoe]

This appears to be a photo of the band taken from their facebook page.

IS IT A SURPRISE that the musicians on the photo perfectly fit my description earlier in my longer comment on page 7... ?

Yes, perfectly. Well except for the distinct lack of cowboy attire. But who, other than someone with your extensive firsthand experience, could have predicted rock musicians with long hair?!

[brewsterbudgen]

The American embassy has to follow up this case. Otherwise there will be no justice. Thailand is on a dangerous path when it comes to their tourist industry. Tourists and expats are not safe anymore. It's the third American murdered in Thailand in 3 weeks, and I bet none of the murderers will get the death sentence or life in prison.

What exactly do you want the US Embassy to do?

As for the death penalty, is there any country that would impose this for a bar fight in which someone was killed?

Some people really need to get a grip on reality.

[BradinAsia]

Hate to tell you this guys but this happens a lot in the USA. Go to some road house bar in the middle of nowhere with rednecks and bikers and see what happens. You better not look at anyone the wrong way or walk in as a stranger. Being from Texas where there is omly 1 bar every 50 miles I have seen many guys stabbed, dragged behind pickups and the like and some killed. The local law doesn't care or will take the time to investigate.

Very much agree.

Anyone who's lived in Texas and frequented bars there should be familiar with drunken obnoxious Texans.

Some folks seem to have a special gift for getting too drunk, becoming too obnoxious, abusing people, then

starting fights and often killing someone -- or getting themselves killed. Texans seem to specialize in this all

over the world. Should be no surprise that this could happen in Thailand as well.

Based on the information given in the news reports as well as my experience over the years in both Texas

and Thailand, this looks very much like another typical Texas style incident.

Some folks will sympathize with the abusers. Others, like me, will sympathize with anyone (including Thais)

who have to endure such barbarous behavior.

This has no similarity to texas. You are misinformed. And you seem to have all the answers. Were you there? Do you actually buy newspapers in thailand and read them, as if everything was factual. Why does everyone assume, because the victims are American, that they are rogue cowboys out of control and therefore guilty and deserving of being attacked??? This is a tourist incident involving tourists, has nothing to do with texas. Get a grip. It should could to trial (it never will)) and then you can rant on whether they were wrong or right.

You could be right.

Maybe the info in the news article about the Texas guy getting drunk, refusing to leave the stage,

becoming loud and abuse, knocking the tip box in the floor, then later going outside and knocking

down the band member -- maybe that was all fabricated by the news reporter.

Could be.

[chrisinth]

I find it ridiculous how so many posters in this forum routinely take something like this and turn it into a 'Thai vs. farang' thing. This is a case of drunk people (note: people, not Thai or farang) getting involved in a stupid bar fight that escelated to a point where someone was tragically killed. I worked in the bar business for 10 years and have seen similar incidents happen many times; 99% of the time they have nothing to do with race and everything to do with boozy aggression. They usually don't end up with someone getting killed but they very well can - and do - anywhere in the world. Incredible: a bar fight breaks out and someone gets killed - let's blame it all on Thai society!

Spot on post mate...................

[SteeleJoe]

I feel so, so badly for the sons. However, objectively speaking, we've heard two sides but both from parties who have every reason to be biased and inaccurate (deliberately or not).

The Thais were on an unprovoked homicidal rampage / The foreigners caused it all.

The truth no doubt lies somewhere between...

Edited August 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[BradinAsia]

Outrageous. Daily tourist blood spills and oil spills tarnish the land of [phony] smiles tourism industry.

The other side of the coin might be -- arrogant, drunken tourists with overly rude behavior tarnish a beautiful land.

[rayongchelsea]

I have worked with some really nice Thai males, some not so nice.

The worst was a farang who was sh..t scared of losing a well paid job of which he was incapable of doing that he fits the description of last sentence of Erwin's post more accurately.

That is just prejudice and nonsense..

[britinthai]

I lived in Thailand for a while and i saw many foreigners be not respectful to Thai people.

Also most of foreigners like to be drunk and often it become fight and bigger problems.

So yes someone died is too much but a fight that end with someone die is not the first i heard.

I think before judge someone we must wait for get more information about what really happened and hope a solution can be find for those kind of problems.

I don't like to go in place with many tourists in Thailand because they like to be drunk and can act stupid.

Also Thai people can think wrong about foreigners, so there is effort to be done from both sides.

WOW have you ever been around Thai's when they are drunk, which seems to be a hobby for a lot of Thai men. Every company party I have either arranged or been invited to, the standard practice is to have a high presence of the police or military to control all the fighting, and trust me they are needed. Within two hours they are totally pissed and fighting with each other - and you have the spunk to comment on how the western world like to enjoy themselves. Yes there are some exceptions and some right yobs that visit Thailand, but time after time I have seen Thai men gang-up and beat the crap out of a tourist who has no chance of defending himself because he is drunk; the Thai men could simply call the Thai police, but they always seem to judge a kicking and I mean a kicking as their right. However I must say on the flip side there are many Thai people that are very nice and have the same views of family life as the western world.

[BradinAsia]

RIp Yank

I guess the thing to learn here is

DONT knock the Tip Box to the floor.

We are too lazy, stoned or drunk to pick it up but we will kill you

Lesson to be learned might be --

if you are an uncivilized brute who gets arrogant, obnoxious and violent

when drunk, best to stay in your own country -- so you don't contribute to

the problems in other countries.

[louse1953]

I work as an entry clearance officer for an EU country's embassy. One thing I can share here is that I am almost always biased against visa applications lodged by Thai males. Rarely do I approve such applications, regardless of how many millions of baht they have on their bank accounts or rai of land they can show. Incidents like this very strongly reinforce my determination to keep this practice in place and to very carefully vet these people, lest they endanger the lives of those in my country. There is no place for "saving face" in my country.

The criteria is not just about satisfying the minimum eligibility conditions set on the Schengen visa protocol or entry clearance guidelines but more specifically (at least for me) the onus is on the applicants to show me that, in addition to the EU rules, they can demonstrate and prove that they are not what most Thai males are: infantile, thais-are-always-correct mentality, arrogant and fake.

How do they demonstrate that?With your bais attitude i would not be surprised they are not comfortable,maybe don't look in your eyes.So 30 million people are no good,in your narrowminded thinking.

[bkkfaranguy]

RIp Yank

I guess the thing to learn here is

DONT knock the Tip Box to the floor.

We are too lazy, stoned or drunk to pick it up but we will kill you

Lesson to be learned might be --

if you are an uncivilized brute who gets arrogant, obnoxious and violent

when drunk, best to stay in your own country -- so you don't contribute to

the problems in other countries.

Yes but we have now heard the other side of the story from the son, he was just trying to walk away and they followed him out the door! Who should we believe the 3 Thai guys or the son?

[transam]

Here's my take. Dad and son somehow cause the band to lose face, most probably by doing something so innocuous it didn't register at the time. Band waits outside for the pair to leave and desperate for revenge, attacks, thinking 3 on 2 should be okay as it's only a dad and son. As most Thai males can't fight for shit without back-up or being tooled-up, they started to get a beating so resort to knifing the dad and then trying to beat the son to death. Band then make up BS excuses (tip-box, didn't stop singing etc.) in order to try to minimize their guilt, similar to that murdering taxi driver in BKK recently. ThaiVisa Thai-wannabes take the BS excuses as fact, even inventing stuff like spitting in a girl's face. Then they try to put the blame on the Americans by excusing the Thai thugs behaviour with the usual 'cultural differences' chestnut.

And yes, some westerners behave boorishly or aggressively when drunk, but often the Thai response (beatings, knifings, murder etc.) is totally over the top and out of proportion to the perceived original 'offence'.

Even if the 'reports' of the Americans bad behavior turns out to be true, it didn't warrant a death sentence.

Honestly saying ,after i saw how did they behave i wished those 2 drunk guys would get beaten up.Unfortunately,one of them died.But i'm not lying , i really wished they would get beaten.

And people like you are the the worst posters here on TV.You just wait to something like this happen(or every other story) just so you can bash all thai people. If you think one can come here and behave aggressively,shouting at people then you shouldn't even come.Try to do that in other country,it will be with same consequences.

I lived 3 years in Pattaya and believe me 99% of all fights started because farang started behave aggressively first. Tell me one story that you know where thai WITHOUT ANY REASON attacked foreigners?(except robbers and similar).Yes there are,but very rarely.

So tell me, why are these bars opened ? I will post why they open, my thought, to earn money FROM holidaymakers or resident farangs, and of course locals if they have the cash. Opening an establishment such as this comes with the drawbacks. If you want to make money from booze then one must accept what goes with booze, and we all know what that is. A guy gets cut up cos he's a bit pissed and dies, very sad, yet folk here talk as though folk must not get drunk in a Thai bar and accept the knife. Nooooooooooooooooo .

Drink and act responcibly.

Eeeeeeeeeeer, do folk do that in farangland ?, don't think so. Many UK city centres have become ''no-go'' areas at chucking out times.

Ask UK police.

[transam]

I work as an entry clearance officer for an EU country's embassy. One thing I can share here is that I am almost always biased against visa applications lodged by Thai males. Rarely do I approve such applications, regardless of how many millions of baht they have on their bank accounts or rai of land they can show. Incidents like this very strongly reinforce my determination to keep this practice in place and to very carefully vet these people, lest they endanger the lives of those in my country. There is no place for "saving face" in my country.

The criteria is not just about satisfying the minimum eligibility conditions set on the Schengen visa protocol or entry clearance guidelines but more specifically (at least for me) the onus is on the applicants to show me that, in addition to the EU rules, they can demonstrate and prove that they are not what most Thai males are: infantile, thais-are-always-correct mentality, arrogant and fake.

How do they demonstrate that?With your bais attitude i would not be surprised they are not comfortable,maybe don't look in your eyes.So 30 million people are no good,in your narrowminded thinking.

I am not buying it, there is no way someone with these opinions could be working in a high level position for one of the EU embassies here in Thailand. This has to be someone just trying to stir the pot!

Perhaps not.

[SteeleJoe]

RIp Yank

I guess the thing to learn here is

DONT knock the Tip Box to the floor.

We are too lazy, stoned or drunk to pick it up but we will kill you

Lesson to be learned might be --

if you are an uncivilized brute who gets arrogant, obnoxious and violent

when drunk, best to stay in your own country -- so you don't contribute to

the problems in other countries.

Yes but we have now heard the other side of the story from the son, he was just trying to walk away and they followed him out the door! Who should we believe the 3 Thai guys or the son?

Those aren't the only choices.

Keep in mind that aside from the obvious and perfectly natural bias the son would be likely to have, it isn't clear that he was even there. (And he never explicitly denies that his father was acting in a way that some would not tolerate, he merely characterizes it differently and feels it was within reason).

Edited August 1, 2013 by SteeleJoe

[boone57]

I have never seen a Thai man in a bar that I have felt needed an ass kicking. But I have seen many many many foriegners, sloshed to the gills and weened into a faults senese of security. And they push and push until they hit the trip-wire.

In sounds from the article that the Thai's did everything possible to avoid the confrontation including leaving their own gig.

Thai's in general arn't murders, well not for free anyway.