A few tips from me on losing weight

[moe666]

It takes nearly the same amount of energy to chew and digest a steak that are actually in the steak making it nearly a 0 on the calorie chart.

[singa-traz]

Because it is.

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Or is it because it's convenient to think so? Think about it.

LOL. That's exactly what I was thinking, but you don't want to get JT started.

Actually, I sincerely wish him to start thinking about why, out of those two explanations, one seems more appealing to him.

[Jingthing]

Medical researchers are never going to come up with a major breakthrough in obesity therapy without considering complexities.

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[Jingthing]

This forum always seems to degrade down to the morality crutch and personal insinuations.

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[Jingthing]

I want to clarify what I posted more a bit.

I said:

Bottom line, IF you're going to be a healthy person and for most people that ultimately is going to reflect in a healthy body size (though not necessarily insurance charts "normal" weight), attention must be paid both to food intake (what foods and portions) AND to physical activity.

That was not meant to suggest that someone STARTING from obesity who begins a program for life of eating healthy foods, controlling portions, doing at least moderate exercise, and avoiding obviously harmful foods is really likely to BECOME a technically "normal weight" person for the long term. Yes, it's possible for some, but ... It would mean that obese person would very probably not gain more weight, very probably lose SOME of the weight, and also most probably be overall a HEALTHIER person, even if still technically obese. Yes obesity is a known health risk but some obese people are healthier than others, and a minority are actually healthy people by any standards.

Now if you could start everyone from childhood on such sensible life habits, of course it would be very unlikely for them to become obese in the first place.

But the reality is that hundreds of millions of people are ALREADY obese and there's the rub. Science knows for a fact how difficult it is (and statistically unlikely) for the already obese to achieve LONG TERM results in reversing that given current standard therapies, advice of diet and exercise. (Except for surgery for the very obese.)

That doesn't mean that obese people for the most part can't at least IMPROVE their health prospects, again with these common sense measures as mentioned. It does mean that it's unrealistic to expect the majority of obese to become non-obese with such measures.

I realize most all of us including me are influenced by the cultural bias that fat is bad, fat is ugly, fat equals stigmatized, fat ain't sexy, but I find it useful to filter through that and focus much more on the HEALTH aspects of these fatty matters.

I think this quote is relevant:

Obesity experts said Taft’s experience highlights how very difficult it is for many fat people to lose substantial amounts of weight and keep it off, and how little progress has been made in finding a combination of foods that lead to permanent weight loss.

¶“Maybe we are looking for something that doesn’t exist,” said David B. Allison, the director of the Nutrition Obesity Research Center at the University of Alabama at Birmingham.

¶Doctors today would most likely offer Taft weight-loss surgery — which could have a big effect on weight — or drugs, which have a small effect at best. But the diet he was advised to follow would be largely unchanged, Dr. Allison said.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/15/health/in-struggle-with-weight-william-howard-taft-used-a-modern-diet.html?_r=2&

Edited October 29, 2013 by Jingthing

[tropo]

Medical researchers are never going to come up with a major breakthrough in obesity therapy without considering complexities.

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The real answer is very simple. Bad food tastes so good! Food technology is an advanced science and hard to counter with willpower.

I just had two delicious donuts before heading off to the gym. Have you seen the amazing new Dunkin Donuts on offer? Just as you find the power to resist they make them every more enticing. It's a never ending battle.

These are problems that cavemen and early subsistence farmers never had to deal with.

Edited October 29, 2013 by tropo

[tropo]

This forum always seems to degrade down to the morality crutch and personal insinuations.

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Lighten up JT...It was merely a suggestion that some people look for excuses not to succeed because they enjoy their food too much. Even if you're not one of them, there are a lot of people who are. Psychology is an important aspect of dieting. If there's no will to succeed, then the battle is over before it begins. I know you believe that willpower will never win in the long run, but it is still a necessary element.

[danbradster]

you don't necessarily have to count calories, but understanding how calorie dense each food is is useful.

Since you've already been losing weight at a slow rate, all you have to do is cut your food/drink intake a little more (5-10%) or increase your exercise a little (10-50%) and you'll start losing weight at a moderate speed instead.

[Jingthing]

you don't necessarily have to count calories, but understanding how calorie dense each food is is useful.

Since you've already been losing weight at a slow rate, all you have to do is cut your food/drink intake a little more (5-10%) or increase your exercise a little (10-50%) and you'll start losing weight at a moderate speed instead.

That's a nice theory but in real life the body commonly ADJUSTS to these new conditions because it's fighting starvation, which is what we are programmed to do. Meaning many people attempting to lose weight either hit a wall or ... worse. Your mileage may vary. So you see for many people too much deprivation is basically a setup for a massive backfire. That's why most sensible obesity specialists strongly favor MODERATE approaches geared at hopes of LONG TERM changes. As usual, "will power" is overrated, the body usually has different ideas on what it needs.

If it was easy and simple for obese people to become normal weight people, the majority would have DONE it already. Instead, only a small minority have achieved long term success. This isn't a mystery. The stats are known.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

This forum always seems to degrade down to the morality crutch and personal insinuations.

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Lighten up JT...It was merely a suggestion that some people look for excuses not to succeed because they enjoy their food too much. Even if you're not one of them, there are a lot of people who are. Psychology is an important aspect of dieting. If there's no will to succeed, then the battle is over before it begins. I know you believe that willpower will never win in the long run, but it is still a necessary element.

I have never denied willpower is a very important factor and a necessary one. But it ALONE is not enough for long term success for the vast majority of actual obese persons. Absolutely, there needs to be motivation and the motivation should be coming from the person making the changes in their life and NOT from outside pressure and shaming.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Jingthing

[danbradster]

you don't necessarily have to count calories, but understanding how calorie dense each food is is useful.

Since you've already been losing weight at a slow rate, all you have to do is cut your food/drink intake a little more (5-10%) or increase your exercise a little (10-50%) and you'll start losing weight at a moderate speed instead.

That's a nice theory but in real life the body commonly ADJUSTS to these new conditions because it's fighting starvation, which is what we are programmed to do. Meaning many people attempting to lose weight either hit a wall or ... worse. Your mileage may vary. So you see for many people too much deprivation is basically a setup for a massive backfire. That's why most sensible obesity specialists strongly favor MODERATE approaches geared at hopes of LONG TERM changes. As usual, "will power" is overrated, the body usually has different ideas on what it needs.

If it was easy and simple for obese people to become normal weight people, the majority would have DONE it already. Instead, only a small minority have achieved long term success. This isn't a mystery. The stats are known.

An obese person cutting their calories by 5-10% is far from starvation. It's returning to moderation.

It's true that your body will slowly adapt, since an obese person burns more calories per day that a skinny person. At 100kg he may be able to eat 2400 calories per day and still lose weight, but when he gets down to 90kg, he may have to reduce it to 2200 calories to continue losing weight. See here to calculate the values for yourself http://www.bmi-calculator.net/bmr-calculator/

The reason obese people are obese is that they eat and drink more than their body needs. I'd say that it IS about will power, but also knowledge. If you do a strict diet, lose weight, finish the diet and put the weight on again it means you didn't plan correctly. The website above will give you the knowledge you need to do it successfully, so all you need is the will power.

If you want an even simpler solution, use www.MyFitnessPal.com. You enter your body/age/exercise details, it returns a pretty accurate figure of how many calories you need per day to lose weight. They you enter your food into the website each day to see if you're hitting the goal successfully. Although that website has a great database of western food, it doesn't have much Thai food. I've seen this website work well for people, multiple times, since it makes the weight loss process clear for people who don't understand it. Understanding the process helps 'will power' a lot.

After you're used that website for a while, hopefully you can continue on the same path without having to enter the calories each day.

[Jingthing]

Anything that supposedly "works" for weight loss is almost meaningless unless they can provide success statistics for the long term. That means an obese person becoming normal weight and staying that way for at least 5 years. Again, this is no mystery. NOTHING works short of surgery for more than a small percentage of obese people LONG TERM. This is known. Why are people afraid to confront the facts? Crowing about short term success as if weight loss alone is even success is a trap because most of those people will be on the YOYO and end up in worse health than when they started.

This is the problem with the anecdotes. I've seen this. I've done that. Great. The actual statistics don't lie when this problem of obesity is viewed on a MACRO level.

I am not saying don't seek solutions. I am saying I know some friends who lost some weight on this or that plan is really nothing. If you've done a controlled study and can prove 50 out of 100 obese achieved long term success on something other than surgery, that would be more than something, That would be something that does not exist yet.

Yeah, I know, I know, the response will be these vast majority of people who do fail long term just aren't motivated enough. No, that is too easy. The methods aren't good enough yet or the success rates would be higher.

Yes I'm arguing for a humane and realistic approach for ourselves and for how society views obese people given the odds against them. Congrats to the few who do achieve long term success. I am trying for that myself. I don't find knowing the TRUTH about the actual odds is a deterrent at all. I think knowing the truth actually increases a person's chances (which in general are still low).

In my opinion the best we've got now is the change your life rather then diet plan concept while avoiding being/feeling deprived and be prepared for a lifetime of vigilance (good luck) or surgery for the really big.

The yoyo thing isn't trivial. It really damages people's health and it happens to MOST obese people who have attempted diets.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Jingthing

[tropo]

This forum always seems to degrade down to the morality crutch and personal insinuations.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Lighten up JT...It was merely a suggestion that some people look for excuses not to succeed because they enjoy their food too much. Even if you're not one of them, there are a lot of people who are. Psychology is an important aspect of dieting. If there's no will to succeed, then the battle is over before it begins. I know you believe that willpower will never win in the long run, but it is still a necessary element.

I have never denied willpower is a very important factor and a necessary one. But it ALONE is not enough for long term success for the vast majority of actual obese persons. Absolutely, there needs to be motivation and the motivation should be coming from the person making the changes in their life and NOT from outside pressure and shaming.

It's catch 22. Without willpower you'll never succeed but hormones can overpower the strongest of willpower.

[tropo]

Anything that supposedly "works" for weight loss is almost meaningless unless they can provide success statistics for the long term. That means an obese person becoming normal weight and staying that way for at least 5 years. Again, this is no mystery. NOTHING works short of surgery for more than a small percentage of obese people LONG TERM. This is known. Why are people afraid to confront the facts? Crowing about short term success as if weight loss alone is even success is a trap because most of those people will be on the YOYO and end up in worse health than when they started.

This is the problem with the anecdotes. I've seen this. I've done that. Great. The actual statistics don't lie when this problem of obesity is viewed on a MACRO level.

I am not saying don't seek solutions. I am saying I know some friends who lost some weight on this or that plan is really nothing. If you've done a controlled study and can prove 50 out of 100 obese achieved long term success on something other than surgery, that would be more than something, That would be something that does not exist yet.

Yeah, I know, I know, the response will be these vast majority of people who do fail long term just aren't motivated enough. No, that is too easy. The methods aren't good enough yet or the success rates would be higher.

Yes I'm arguing for a humane and realistic approach for ourselves and for how society views obese people given the odds against them. Congrats to the few who do achieve long term success. I am trying for that myself. I don't find knowing the TRUTH about the actual odds is a deterrent at all. I think knowing the truth actually increases a person's chances (which in general are still low).

In my opinion the best we've got now is the change your life rather then diet plan concept while avoiding being/feeling deprived and be prepared for a lifetime of vigilance (good luck) or surgery for the really big.

The yoyo thing isn't trivial. It really damages people's health and it happens to MOST obese people who have attempted diets.

You're an unusual individual on this forum. Most everyone will give numbers to show the exact extent of their problem and the progress they've made. You're one of the most prolific contributors in this particular forum, yet we've seen no numbers from you.

I'd be curious to know why you keep everything a huge secret. We know the exact weight of most other members here... or did I miss the thread where you exposed yourself?

Edited October 29, 2013 by tropo

[singa-traz]

And here are mines, soon breaking the 90kg limit (in the right direction).

Still have 10-12kg to let go, and happy to do it at a rate of 1kg/month, but prefer 2kg/month.

I'm now:

• in my early-mid 40s
• moderate to quite active,
• With a desk job, most days sitting in front of a computer.

Past:

• Gained 1kg per year (on average) for the last 20 years, since I arrived in Asia (20 years ago)
• Three years ago was about 86-87kg, but had sport activities 3 times a week.
• Travelled a lot (up to 50%) in the past 2-3 years, with easy access to 5 Stars buffet lunch

Progress (August-October):

• Can now run 3-4 times the distance that I used to be able just 3 months ago (did 14km last week)
• Lost 5-6kg in the process
• October was a slow month, as I was expecting to lose 2kg, but might have been too generous in some reward lunch/dinner
• The mirror reflects the progress

Challenges:

• Feel like I should start to include moderate Strengh Training activities in my weekly activities, but have Zero knowledge and Zero motivation to do so (I should say I'm very resistant to the idea).
• You would have to "kill me" before bringing/carrying me to a gym

[ChrisB87]

This is a very interesting thread.

What people here think of being totally vegetarian? (still with the consumption of eggs, yogurt, and some other dairy)

Do we really need meat?

[Tolley]

And here are mines, soon breaking the 90kg limit (in the right direction).

30-OCTOBER-2013.png

Still have 10-12kg to let go, and happy to do it at a rate of 1kg/month, but prefer 2kg/month.

I'm now:

• in my early-mid 40s
• moderate to quite active,
• With a desk job, most days sitting in front of a computer.

Past:

• Gained 1kg per year (on average) for the last 20 years, since I arrived in Asia (20 years ago)
• Three years ago was about 86-87kg, but had sport activities 3 times a week.
• Travelled a lot (up to 50%) in the past 2-3 years, with easy access to 5 Stars buffet lunch

Progress (August-October):

• Can now run 3-4 times the distance that I used to be able just 3 months ago (did 14km last week)
• Lost 5-6kg in the process
• October was a slow month, as I was expecting to lose 2kg, but might have been too generous in some reward lunch/dinner
• The mirror reflects the progress

Challenges:

• Feel like I should start to include moderate Strengh Training activities in my weekly activities, but have Zero knowledge and Zero motivation to do so (I should say I'm very resistant to the idea).
• You would have to "kill me" before bringing/carrying me to a gym

At your age and given your type of job resistance training is essential.

You wll get far better results and feel and look much better if you incorporate some resistance training in your regime.

You dont really have to do very much for it to be effective.

Even as little as an hour a week can make a big difference but two or three would be much better.

[Tolley]

This is a very interesting thread.

What people here think of being totally vegetarian? (still with the consumption of eggs, yogurt, and some other dairy)

Do we really need meat?

That really isnt a vegetarian diet as it includes dairy and eggs and vegeatarianvpurists wouldnt eat those products.

I think you need a bit of meat and definitely fish as well as it is very hard to get all the nutrients you need from other products especially red meat has some things that are hard to get elsewhere.

[tropo]

This is a very interesting thread.

What people here think of being totally vegetarian? (still with the consumption of eggs, yogurt, and some other dairy)

Do we really need meat?

No, we don't need meat. Meat is a whole protein which your digestive system breaks down into individual amino acids. That's what your body needs - amino acids which can be obtained from plant food sources. If you eat a non-meat diet with the addition of eggs and other dairy, you're not going to have a problem. Eggs are one of the very best whole proteins and much easier to digest than meat.

Sounds like a good plan.

[mommysboy]

Sorry MrHammer, but you are simply overeating and underexercising.

It's as simple as that.

You are not following up on what you write.

Junk food is ok, yes, everything is ok in moderation.

Hot cocoa is good if you have a sweet tooth.

Perhaps you are fearful of exercise, just do it lightly, walking is best.

[mommysboy]

This is a very interesting thread.

What people here think of being totally vegetarian? (still with the consumption of eggs, yogurt, and some other dairy)

Do we really need meat?

No, we don't need meat. Meat is a whole protein which your digestive system breaks down into individual amino acids. That's what your body needs - amino acids which can be obtained from plant food sources. If you eat a non-meat diet with the addition of eggs and other dairy, you're not going to have a problem. Eggs are one of the very best whole proteins and much easier to digest than meat.

Sounds like a good plan.

Most of us of a certain age, nominally mid twenties up need a balanced diet which includes meat, as it is likely that eating rather enormous quantities of compensatory veg and beans would lead to digestive issues. A vegetarian diet is an extreme one, and could be as dangerous as a 'bad diet', in fact i'd say it is the worst diet as it encourages folly. Taking a close look at diet is important only if you have a recognised health condition such as IBS, diabetes, and specific food allergy of course.

One of the best meals often foregone by health fads is bacon and eggs for example. Most sensible food plans that work were sussed out centuries ago and combine food that complement and balance, eg, porridge with a pinch of salt, or the traditional western meat, spuds, and 2 veg combo.

Diet is more about not eating too much all the time and mild/moderate exercise is part of weight control.

Nearly all diet problems stem from over-indulgence in my own experience, even then it's good to pig out once in awhile.

[JSixpack]

Sorry MrHammer, but you are simply overeating and underexercising.

More likely just eating too much of the wrong things. To his great credit, he's managed to figure out that junk food and bread aren't good, though he doesn't really know why bread isn't.

And he's wrong about heavy lifting vs. cardio. The cardio is better for losing weight, though neither are particularly good for that purpose.

The reason is quite simple:

Fatty acids mobilized from triacylglycerols are oxidized to

meet the energy needs of a cell or organism. During rest or moderate exercise,

such as walking, fatty acids are our primary source of energy.

--Berg, Biochemistry, p. 639

Junk food is ok, yes, everything is ok in moderation.

No.

Hot cocoa is good if you have a sweet tooth.

You don't understand about cocoa, a carb. You need non-Dutch processed cocoa and then use artificial sweetener only. Stevia's good. I often have this.

Perhaps you are fearful of exercise, just do it lightly, walking is best.

Did you read his post at all?

[hanno]

This is a very interesting thread.

What people here think of being totally vegetarian? (still with the consumption of eggs, yogurt, and some other dairy)

Do we really need meat?

No, but I like it and, whilst having reduced the intake somewhat, I will not give it up. The same goes for beer. I guess if I cut it out I could use a few kilos but whilst not reed-thin, I am OK with the way I look. I compensate with running (50+ K this week) as well as regular HIIT sessions. I am happy exercising enough to compensate for my little weaknesses.

[JSixpack]

Taking a close look at diet is important only if you have a recognised health condition such as IBS, diabetes, and specific food allergy of course.

No. For the average person nowadays, NOT taking a close look at diet leads inevitably to metabolic syndrome and its many woes. Often you hear, "If you're not insulin-resistant, no need to worry about carb intake." Trouble is, not so worrying is exactly what leads to the insulin resistance--which has become so epidemic.

One of the best meals often foregone by health fads is bacon and eggs for example. Most sensible food plans that work were sussed out centuries ago and combine food that complement and balance, eg, porridge with a pinch of salt, or the traditional western meat, spuds, and 2 veg combo.

"Complement and balance" has been much abused by quack science and superstition. See the discrediting of Diet for a Small Planet by Frances Moore Lappe.

Not the porridge and spuds, sorry. Esp that porridge with a banana or "a bit of honey" so beloved and blessed by our forum members.

Diet is more about not eating too much all the time and mild/moderate exercise is part of weight control.

No, it's more about what you eat and what your body does with it.

Exercise doesn't help a lot; in fact, exercise often just makes people more hungry to eat more carbs. How would you "work up a good appetite?" Exercise.

You can lose weight w/o any exercise at all. Of course exercise is good on many other counts.

Nearly all diet problems stem from over-indulgence in my own experience, even then it's good to pig out once in awhile.

No, and the "overindulgence" represents a false moral spin.

[JSixpack]

Celebrity trainer Vinnie Tortorich, author of ‘Fitness Confidential,’ on what works for weight loss

The Hollywood fitness expert says it's not that hard to lose weight and get in shape — just back off grains and sugar. Tortorich opens up about his tough childhood and how he got into working out in the new book, ‘Fitness Confidential: Adventures in the Weight-Loss Game.’

He blames a couple of culprits for the fattening of America. One is the "calorie-in, calorie-out" concept of dieting that has focused on calorie restriction as opposed to the calorie sources. When it comes to protein, fat and carbs from fruit and veggies, our bodies know what to do – using them, respectively, for rebuilding cells and for providing long-term and short-term energy. But calories from grains and sugar? "They're killing you," he writes.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/celeb-trainer-works-weight-loss-article-1.1499200#ixzz2jD1KnEuZ

[Briggsy]

Great post.

The only way I lost weight was counting calories. It is very time consuming though.

Eating vegetables and not eating out are an essential by-product of counting calories.

[mommysboy]

Jsixpack-

It's no good just taking a couple of quotes out of context: that context being an argument of moderation and balance applicable to people who are currently basically healthy and willing to do a bit of exercise.

For others as I mentioned the game is a little different.

But for everybody it's a simple case of calories out, calories in. All else is secondary or erroneous in my view.

[Tolley]

JSixpack

Now dont go attacking my porridge and honey in the morning.

Most people will go well on oats every morning. I eat grains like oats and brown rice every day and I have maintained a healthy weight and good blood sugar numbers all my life. You take the whole grain thing way too far. For most people all they need to do is cut out all the processed grains and drastically reduce their sugar intake and that would be sufficient no need to throw the baby out with the bath water. Good quality grains can be quite beneficial in the diet.

Exercise is key to maintaining good health. Heck there has been quite a bit of research on the benefits of exercise and even people who are overweight but are fit and active have better blood count numbers than thinner non active people.

Your comment about metabolic syndrome disregards the influence of exercise which evern with a poor diet can offset the onset of metabolic syndrome. It is inactivity and poor diet combined that eventually can lead to metabolic syndrome but even then it wont effect everyone.

[JSixpack]

You like to search for links, so how about providing a link to a study where people were kept in a lab for months and everything they ate was controlled and every calorie expended through exercise was calculated. 6 months would be nice because it can take awhile to see significant changes. Also, they would need to be measured for bodyfat and muscle mass at regular intervals - by a 4 compartment fat testing method for maximum accuracy.

I don't believe such an experiment has ever been done. If it has been done, I'd love to read about it.

You can just do this for yourself just as personal trainer Sam Feltham did in the original link I gave above, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2459915/Could-low-fat-diet-make-EVEN-FATTER-As-experts-question-conventional-wisdom-diets-extraordinary-results-mans-experiment.html. It's not at all necessary that you wait for some such lab experiment. Then you can post it on the web as a link and read about it as you wish.

[tropo]

You like to search for links, so how about providing a link to a study where people were kept in a lab for months and everything they ate was controlled and every calorie expended through exercise was calculated. 6 months would be nice because it can take awhile to see significant changes. Also, they would need to be measured for bodyfat and muscle mass at regular intervals - by a 4 compartment fat testing method for maximum accuracy.

I don't believe such an experiment has ever been done. If it has been done, I'd love to read about it.

You can just do this for yourself just as personal trainer Sam Feltham did in the original link I gave above, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2459915/Could-low-fat-diet-make-EVEN-FATTER-As-experts-question-conventional-wisdom-diets-extraordinary-results-mans-experiment.html. It's not at all necessary that you wait for some such lab experiment. Then you can post it on the web as a link and read about it as you wish.

We all know that such an experiment is unlikely ever to be done. It would be an astronomical undertaking as humans don't like to be kept in labs for extended periods of time and we'd need truck loads of humans kept in isolation for months on end. For now, we'll have to rely on lab rats.

The point is that if you want to debunk the laws of physics, the onus is upon you to prove them wrong, not the other way around. You certainly won't be getting close to that with "studies" which rely on people reporting honestly about what they eat for years on end.

Even in this golden age of science people in this line of study are still talking about BMI and weight loss (as opposed to fat loss). There isn't even an economical, accurate method available to determine the body's fat mass.