The Hmong People.......

[theblether]

I was totally unaware of the Hmong people's effort in the Vietnam War, and it's got me looking deeper into their history. I've been intrigued by the Hill Tribe / Mountain people of Thailand for a while but quite frankly my lack of knowledge is appalling.

The aim of this thread is to build a working knowledge of the Hmong, who by nature are transnational. I think we should give each group the courtesy of a thread of their own, so I'll look to open a thread on the Akha, Karen, Lisu and other people's later.

The aim of this thread is to gain a greater understanding of the Hmong, their history, culture and personality. Vietnam War aspect is secondary though as it played a part in the latter 20th century history of the Hmong that cannot be ignored.

As I say my knowledge is appalling, I'm hoping for some help with this topic from others with knowledge. In the meantime I'll go digging around and see what I can find.

[theblether]

Where to start?......where else but Wiki, an overview of the Hmong......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hmong_people

Here's a paragraph from Wiki.............

In 2002 the Hmong in Thailand numbered 151,080. The presence of Hmong settlements there is documented from the end of the 19th century. Initially, the Siamese paid little attention to them. But in the early 1950s, the state suddenly took a number of initiatives aimed at establishing links. Decolonization and nationalism were gaining momentum in the Peninsula and wars of independence were raging. Armed opposition to the state in northern Thailand, triggered by outside influence, started in 1967 while here again, many Hmong refused to take sides in the conflict. Communist guerrilla warfare stopped by 1982 as a result of an international concurrence of events that rendered it pointless. Priority is since given by the Thai state to sedentarizing the mountain population, introducing commercially viable agricultural techniques and national education, with the aim of integrating these non-Tai animists within the national identity

Edited August 5, 2013 by theblether

[theblether]

A Hmong documentary.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWflBUfw1z8

You'll hear the narrator refer to the Hmong as Miao, and that causes controversy among the Hmong community, here's an explanation.....

Some non-Chinese Hmong advocate that the term Hmong be used not only for designating their dialect group, but also for the other Miao groups living in China. They generally claim that the word "Miao" or "Meo" is a derogatory term, with connotations of barbarism, that probably should not be used at all. The term was later adapted by Tai-speaking groups in Southeast Asia where it took on especially insulting associations for Hmong people despite its official status.^[17] In modern China, the term "Miao" does not carry these negative associations and people of the various sub-groups that constitute this officially recognized nationality freely identify themselves as Miao or Chinese, typically reserving more specific ethnonyms for intra-ethnic communication. During the struggle for political recognition after 1949, it was actually members of these ethnic minorities who campaigned for identification under the umbrella term "Miao"—taking advantage of its familiarity and associations of historical political oppression.^[18]

Contemporary transnational interactions between Hmong in the West and Miao groups in China, following the 1975 Hmong diaspora, have led to the development of a global Hmong identity that includes linguistically and culturally related minorities in China that previously had no ethnic affiliation.^[19] Scholarly and commercial exchanges, increasingly communicated via the Internet, have also resulted in an exchange of terminology, including Hmu and A Hmao people identifying as Hmong and, to a lesser extent, Hmong people accepting the designation "Miao," within the context of China. Such realignments of identity, while largely the concern of economically elite community leaders, reflect a trend towards the interchangeability of the terms "Hmong" and "Miao.

Edited August 5, 2013 by theblether

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Look up this book, it's quite good, must be, 'cause I'm mentioned a couple times in it!

http://www.amazon.com/Peoples-History-Hmong-Paul-Hillmer/dp/0873517261

A People's History of the Hmong Hardcover

by Paul Hillmer (Author)

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Mac

[theblether]

I'll certainly do that

I'm still watching the Hmong documentary, fascinating stuff.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Here's another good reference, focused on the outflow of refugees, including the Hmong:

http://www.amazon.com/Refugee-Workers-Indochina-Exodus-1975-1982/dp/0786445297

Mac

[zeichen]

I worked with a lot of Hmong in NY. My neighborhood was a refuge resettlement area for them.

I know it is a movie but Eastwood did a movie with and about the Hmong and it is pretty accurate on how they live in their communities abroad. "El Torrino" I think.

In my experience the girls are worked to death, end up great students but some have had serious issues leaving home at a young age and getting married to older men. Some of their families can be very strict and life is tough for the younger girls so they look for escape. Unfortunately marrying an older man doesn't help them much. We had about 6 teenage girls in our neighborhood center that we were trying to counsel them and their families to avoid this trap.

They also seem to be more protective of their community and allowing outsiders in. I think that they need to be cautious because of their history. One time I was with one of the families that we worked with. The uncle kept picking his toe nails which I thought was quite rude and disgusting. However one of the younger family members who was born in the US and adapted to both cultures pretty well told me that her Uncle thought of me like family. That it was more of an honor that he wasn't formal with me. Who knows she could have been covering up for his rudeness but I liked it.

They do have a troubled past. One issue with the refugee camps at the border of Thailand that they are stuck in is that it is hard to tell the difference between those that helped the US during the war and those that are refugees because of being drug smugglers. The atrocities against them by the Laos aren't just about their support of US, it is also because of their smuggling history.

But overall I do find their culture and history very interesting. The other thing is that since they are a migratory people, the different families (last names) are quite different and their isn't one true Hmong food, dance etc. There is similarities but some of their cultural differences are noticeable if you meet Hmong from the different nations where they have settled.

[theblether]

I worked with a lot of Hmong in NY. My neighborhood was a refuge resettlement area for them.

I know it is a movie but Eastwood did a movie with and about the Hmong and it is pretty accurate on how they live in their communities abroad. "El Torrino" I think.

In my experience the girls are worked to death, end up great students but some have had serious issues leaving home at a young age and getting married to older men. Some of their families can be very strict and life is tough for the younger girls so they look for escape. Unfortunately marrying an older man doesn't help them much. We had about 6 teenage girls in our neighborhood center that we were trying to counsel them and their families to avoid this trap.

They also seem to be more protective of their community and allowing outsiders in. I think that they need to be cautious because of their history. One time I was with one of the families that we worked with. The uncle kept picking his toe nails which I thought was quite rude and disgusting. However one of the younger family members who was born in the US and adapted to both cultures pretty well told me that her Uncle thought of me like family. That it was more of an honor that he wasn't formal with me. Who knows she could have been covering up for his rudeness but I liked it.

They do have a troubled past. One issue with the refugee camps at the border of Thailand that they are stuck in is that it is hard to tell the difference between those that helped the US during the war and those that are refugees because of being drug smugglers. The atrocities against them by the Laos aren't just about their support of US, it is also because of their smuggling history.

But overall I do find their culture and history very interesting. The other thing is that since they are a migratory people, the different families (last names) are quite different and their isn't one true Hmong food, dance etc. There is similarities but some of their cultural differences are noticeable if you meet Hmong from the different nations where they have settled.

@Mac, thanks very much for that link.

@zeichen, thanks very much for that insight. Very interesting, and I share your distaste of the toe nail picking

[hml367]

Regarding their participation in SE Asia fighting, here is a start: http://www.modernforces.com/book_reviews-1.htm

There were Thais involved in less numbers and more technical aspects of these teams. http://vdha.us/stuff/contentmgr/files/23c17865c4bc7009834cd371f0703d37/docs/nakhon_phanom_doghandlers_perspective.pdf

And http://sofrep.com/7212/george-washington-bacon-part-3/

Edited August 6, 2013 by hml367

[theblether]

Okay, we're going back to some ancient history here.............the Hmong are also known as the Miao people, as mentioned earlier that can cause a bit of controversy within the community, I get the idea it's their version of being called farang......however if you see the word Miao in any of the articles of videos you know they are referring to Hmong. I think I've just hit a gold mine of videos, so here we go......

The DNA of the Hmong.......YBP means Year Before Present. I'm not that clever, I had to Google that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe-OKzX_nxE

More DNA background, some superb images on this video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6SEve-_W4Q

An ancient throwback, natural blonde Hmong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzdj7a9j1yE

Edited August 6, 2013 by theblether

[theblether]

The Central Miao/ Hmong Frontier......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vA5WlKxCVk

Hmong Shamanism......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymJnUHxqRpE

[theblether]

I'm fascinated already......still dealing with DNA and heritage issues.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOZG-gtSZAU

Hmong History and Culture......non English however with some compelling images.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVOdBAO288Q

[theblether]

The Eastern Miao/Hmong Frontier......amazing cinematography

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8JD9fkkohE

The Ghao Xiong and the ancient state of Yelang......the ancestors of the Siamese Hmong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FddRgIegWQc

[theblether]

Okay, forgive me to bore you for a moment, this video deals with the influence of Taoism in the Hmong culture. The man they refer to, Lao Tzi, was a predecessor of the better known Confucius. You can be sure that Confucius knew of the teachings of Lao Tzi. Lao, like Buddha, a close contemporary in Northern India, was primarily concerned with the relationship between man and nature. Confucius was more concerned in the relationship between men. Socrates is regarded as being the founder of Western philosophical thought. These four men and their teachings have had a great influence over vast swathes of humanity ever since. Lao Tzi is the least well known to the West, this video gives an insight......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuGouNqFVK8

A look at the cloth and fashion of the Hmong through the centuries......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKTZitFAPVs

Hemp in the Hmong Culture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rU7s5cM7aiU

Another video dealing with the vibrancy and importance of cloth to the Hmong.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asNJpCITvn8

Edited August 6, 2013 by theblether

[Thanyaburi Mac]

http://www.modernforces.com/book_reviews-1.htm

Jim Parker's book COVERT OPS, previously issued as CODE NAME MULE, is a good one. Jim also wrote LAST MAN OUT which was about his follow on assignment to Vietnam up to the end, it also includes some of his Lao period.

TRAGIC MOUNTAINS by Jane H-M, well, take it with a wee bit of salt. OK, but I'd not quote from it. Paul Hillmer's book is better.

Way better is Doctor Charles "Jigs" Weldon's (RIP) book TRAGEDY IN PARADISE, really good.

Then there's Ken Conboy's SHADOW WAR, which I keep handy as a reference, covers the entire country.

Roger Warner's SHOOTING AT THE MOON is also a good one about the war in the NE.

Mac

[hml367]

http://www.modernforces.com/book_reviews-1.htm

Jim Parker's book COVERT OPS, previously issued as CODE NAME MULE, is a good one. Jim also wrote LAST MAN OUT which was about his follow on assignment to Vietnam up to the end, it also includes some of his Lao period.

TRAGIC MOUNTAINS by Jane H-M, well, take it with a wee bit of salt. OK, but I'd not quote from it. Paul Hillmer's book is better.

Way better is Doctor Charles "Jigs" Weldon's (RIP) book TRAGEDY IN PARADISE, really good.

Then there's Ken Conboy's SHADOW WAR, which I keep handy as a reference, covers the entire country.

Roger Warner's SHOOTING AT THE MOON is also a good one about the war in the NE.

Mac

Have you read the book by Jane H-M? I have not. From the description on the referenced url regarding her book, what parts are to be taken with a wee bit of salt? Or do you mean all of it?

Also, if you don't mind, from what perspective are you basing the value of the different books?

Edited August 6, 2013 by hml367

[BookMan]

I worked with a lot of Hmong in NY. My neighborhood was a refuge resettlement area for them.

I know it is a movie but Eastwood did a movie with and about the Hmong and it is pretty accurate on how they live in their communities abroad. "El Torrino" I think.

I

Gran Torino..A good movie

[zeichen]

I love the line where he is surprised that he has more in common with them than his own family.

[fabianfred]

I am also interested in the Hill-tribes of Thailand and hope you continue the series.

The Hmong tribes on the Vietnam/China border farming the terraced rice fields around the tourist area known as Sapa are probably the most traditional still in their lifestyle...although that will change soon.

[klikster]

My last neighborhood in the US was Anaheim, Ca. Lot's of Lao and Hmong lived nearby. We had 2 Thai-Lao markets, 3 restaurants, 2 barber shops, couple of night spots, and a genuine Lao Law office. As an old 'Nam vet I got along famously with them.

The Lao, and especially the Hmong, seemed to integrate into the farang community much better than the Thais did. The Hmong (as did the Vietnamese) assumed they would never return to their ancestral lands.

[johnn11]

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[mike2011]

I still remember vividly how Thailand expelled the Hmong refugees to Laos after decades in detention camps. One elderly person had to be carried on a stretcher across the border. This atrocious act was committed by Oxford-trained opposition leader (FUHRER) Abbishit.

The fate of this people tells all about not so high Thai society.

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Mike

Quite agree! FYI, I went up to Nong Khai, from Bangkok, to catch the last few buses crossing over the "Friendship Bridge" to Laos. These were the 158 (153?) Hmong who'd been in the Nong Khai IDC for over two years, and included a number of former "resistance" members who were not likely to be well received by the Lao government. All of the IDC Hmong had been recognized as refugees by the UNHCR office and all of them had 3rd country resettlement offers. The RTG just included this group in the force repatriation of the some 4,500 from Houei Nam Khao, Khao Kor District, Petchaboon.

Sad day it was.

Mac