What Thai legal entity for a "one man business" firm to do business and get work permi

[Tomtomtom69]

Ah, I see

If that generally a successful way of doing things though? Do they not look at all your stamps and start questioning you or when re-applying for the new B visa they not ask why you don't hire more Thais or it's totally no problem and a choice as to how many Thais you hire vs convenience of visa renewals?

* (I say this as I am not sure how difficult getting a B visa is)

This is the option with a missus but without a missus there's no chance? It's basically an under the radar thing or 2m baht + 4 staff? Advice on previous page focused on the guy and his missus and she doing things?

Useful info, cheers

Getting a B visa, either single or multiple entry is quite easy in many western countries, particularly at the honorory consulates.

No, why would they care about all your stamps? It's only if you're entering Thailand visa free that there might be a problem. Many thousands of legit business travelers use non-B visas and travel throughout the region, with or without a work permit. I'm one of them.

I would be more focusing on the fact that while doing things under the radar may work (I think most westerners exaggerate the risk out of proportion; if you're sitting in your underwear in front of your computer in your own home, the risk is next to nil) you won't have an easy time with visas. One of the biggest reasons for doing things legally is so you can have a legal long stay visa or extension of stay, plus a work permit. Doing things under the radar means you have to pass yourself off as some kind of long-term tourist, with no guarantee that your living in Thailand could be coming to an end the next time you re-enter Thailand as a "tourist".

[seancbk]

2 options.

Iglu has been around a long time.

http://iglu.in.th/

http://iglu.in.th/employer/

http://www.thaiworkvisa.com/

Hope that helps.

Try and ignore the people who obviously do not have companies here in Thailand.

For example on this forum you will keep reading that you need 4 Thai's to get a work permit. This is both true and also not. You are supposed to have 4 Thai's but they understand that it takes time to find and hire staff, so you can get your WP before you actually have the requisite 4 Thai's. You also retain your WP if your staff all quit or you fire them, so again there is an understanding that as a business owner you cannot guarantee 4 Thais will always be on the books.

[VinBkk]

The requirement to employ 4 Thais (or 2 if you are married to a Thai) is not a legal requirement to obtain a WP - it is a requirement of the immigration office to extend a non-immigrant B visa.

That being said, some labour offices are reticent to issue a WP where you are the only employee in a sole-trader business.

My suggestion would be for your GF to ask at the Labour office if they will issue a work permit for her foreign husband so that they can work together in her sole trader internet business that does not complete with other local Thai businesses. she can emphasize that your little business can help local Thai businesses to set up their websites etc, sell online etc ==> ie put some spin on it.

But it is certainly doaable, and legal, and cheap.

Hello Simon,

That's really some good post (which is rare) regarding working legally in Thailand

Is it possible to get a WP for my wife's sole trader business while on Non-O (marriage) yearly extension? or Non-B Visa is compulsory?

If yes, what are the one time and yearly costs, please?

Thanks for your expertise on this.

[simon43]

Is it possible to get a WP for my wife's sole trader business while on Non-O (marriage) yearly extension? or Non-B Visa is compulsory?

You are eligible to apply for a WP on a non-O (marriage extension), regardless of whether or not the legal entity is a Thai person's sole trader, a Partnership company, a Ltd company, a PLC etc. The Non-B via extension is really for those who are NOT married and wish to work in Thailand.

Note that 'you are eligible to apply...' does not mean that the WP will be granted See my previous post.

[MeHere]

Just curious if Ameriicans have a different set of rules with the Amity Treaty in place... I believe US citizens can own 100% of a company.

[orpheus454]

Your only option is a Limited Company + 4 x Thai staff.

Not true. 'Farang' lawyers tell you that because they are generally greedy and untrustworthy.. I stopped using such lawyers about 10 years ago and now use an honest Thai accountant.

You have several other legal choices:

1 - Registered Limited Partnership with your GF, where she owns 51% and you own 49% of the business partnership (or other ratios, but she must be the majority partner). You can apply for a WP, (so long as your profession is not on the prohibited employment list). The requirement for 4 Thai staff relates to visa extensions, not to your B visa. However, depending on your local labour office, they may require you to have 4 Thai employees or possibly 2.

Note - I have used this type of structure for the past couple of years for one of my small hotels, partner was ex-wife

2 - Registered sole Trader Business. Your GF goes to her local Tessabahn office and registers the business as a sole trader. Cost is about 100 baht if I recall. This type of business has no limited liability protection. She can employ you as above.

Note - I have used this type of structure for the past couple of years for another of my small hotels, partner was another ex-wife.

We used our Thai accountant to help us to register both types of business. The sole trader fees were about 400 baht, the partnership fees were a few thousand baht.

For both of these types of entity, you do not have legal 'control' over the business. But (as with my businesses), if you possess the skill upon which the business relies, then you do have 'control'

But! Your success may vary because some accountants deny that you can use this type of legal entity to employ a foreigner. Check the Thai law and you'll see that it is quite legal.

Good luck

Simon

Yep, wife as sole trader, 2 local employees, a visible presence (e.g. shopfront with sign) and you can get a work permit no problems.

[doublephil]

If you have a legitimate business registered in your own country and have a Non-B visa issued from that country on the basis of having that business - then you can legally work here in Thailand without the need for a work permit - because you are representing the foreign company and you have a valid visa issued for that purpose. I worked for 12 years in Thailand like this and never had a problem. Some people think the legality of doing it this way is not 100% - but I asked many times over the years at immigration and at the Thai embassy in London and was always told it was fine to do it. My vindictive ex-wife (Thai) thought she could get me deported for illegal working and made a legal case against me - and failed - because the judge upheld that I was working legally in Thailand and there was no breach of immigration law. I would recommend this way to the OP and anyone else - as long as you have a legitimate business registered in another country.

[LivinLOS]

step 1: register company under name of girlfriend / wife

step 2: employ some low-wage Thais (e.g. driver, maid, accounts, secretary, etc)

step 3: get your work permit and start doing business

This is your only option

Or work for a BOI registered umbrella company..

Cost +- 30% of gross.. ballpark what running a company will cost.

[LivinLOS]

Thx all here the OP

I know all about VAT in NL and TH, and even on insurrances, pension and so on

my account already dit do his job.

And as mentioned I will not work "under the radar" and would set up a serious business in Thailand too.

My main problem is that a foreigner in Thailand is not allowed to work without a work permit.

And the Thai private LTD conditions of minority and 4 Thai workers are not attractive for someone who wants to work flexible and as a 1 man company.

So it is all about "what Thai legal entity will fits best to do some business and get a work permit".

At the moment the Thai consulate here is not sure to give me -on behalf of my Dutch company - a non immigration B (business) visa.

Normally you would expect that this is a first step to obtain a work permit.

Formally, I can not work and even perform a market research and establish business contacts as “work” in Thai law is defined very broadly, covering both physical and mental activities, whether or not for wages or other form of compensation.

You already know your answer..

The legal way.. 2 million paid up capital.. 4 Thai employees.. LOTS of hassle... and 49% ownership..

The alternative way.. Umbrella company and 30% of gross.. Maybe not ideal for your situation its more a 'digital worker' solution..

The illegal way.. Just do it and dont work in Thailand or tell anyone..

[LivinLOS]

If you have a legitimate business registered in your own country and have a Non-B visa issued from that country on the basis of having that business - then you can legally work here in Thailand without the need for a work permit - because you are representing the foreign company and you have a valid visa issued for that purpose. I worked for 12 years in Thailand like this and never had a problem. Some people think the legality of doing it this way is not 100% - but I asked many times over the years at immigration and at the Thai embassy in London and was always told it was fine to do it. My vindictive ex-wife (Thai) thought she could get me deported for illegal working and made a legal case against me - and failed - because the judge upheld that I was working legally in Thailand and there was no breach of immigration law. I would recommend this way to the OP and anyone else - as long as you have a legitimate business registered in another country.

This often repeated bit of advice if flat out contradictory to the statements from the labor office.

Please show something in writing from the labor office stating you can work in Thailand (for a non Thai company) without a work permit.. Never seen one despite many of these discussions. Asking imkmigration about labor law is the same as asking my car mechanic if I need a root canal.

The labor office has stated that anything done online, even as little as uploading a youtube video or blog post with ads turned on, is work and requires a work permit.

The reality is it happens, the reality also is, its illegal.

[LivinLOS]

All it means is you won't get B visa

Yes you will get a B visa, but you will not be able to do yearly extensions in Thailand, (because you won't have enough Thai employees to meet the requirement for B visa extensions). Rather, you simply do visa-runs every 90 days, and re-apply outside Thailand for a new B visa when it expires.

Yet issues remain..

B visa multiple entrys are becoming harder to obtain.. Single entry and the request you extend incountry is creeping up. If that becomes firm, the route is shut down.

90 day visa runs, 90 day permission to stay.. The constant need to leave the country, get more visas, go begging around local embassies and consuls... be watchful of this and how shaky your living situation is.. Sure I did it when I was in my 20s, but its not a lifestyle that feels secure enough for me.

For me its either do it properly, and have annual extensions at whatever cost, or dont trade here, do it without telling the Thais authorities and use a marriage or retirement visa.

[timendres]

@robblok - the loan is from the company to the directors, not a 3rd party - he could just say its PIK interest and let the balance accrue

i am no expert on netherlands tax but (from 2 mins googling) it seems both corporate / dividend tax are +5% higher for any likely outcome on profit - could be a lot of money

he will still need thai accounts / admin staff (or to use an outsource provider) to process invoices / thai language contracts and he would be crazy not to take advantage of the fact that in thailand you can find staff for <300 euros/month to allow him to focus on meeting clients and driving his business forward rather than bookkeeping and washing the dishes

apologies to the OP for making assumptions - this is your thread - if you google for tax guides for netherlands and thailand you can do some quick calcs on the relative economics (given your forecast pre tax profit and payout ratio on dividends)

So there is a an interest component as i expected. Yes he does not have to pay it but it is owed.

Yes 5% higher tax. Why would he need Thai staff ? No need as the Dutch company is doing all the invoicing and they can be in English its a Dutch based company no need to use Thai. (no law) I would say that this person (assumption) would be working for other foreign companies and not Thai ones so not much of a problem. All the administrative things lie in his Dutch company and for all intent and purposes he is just a hired employee here. (that is what payrolling is)

Of course it all depends on the actual figures there i completely agree with you. But let me tell you this accountants in Thailand are not that cheap or that competent. I have had loads of problems with them. I closed one business and they never closed it lost the documents years later (truth here) The tax office contacted us about this and of course fines were handed out. This makes me really weary of Thai accountants. The prices were crazy too and the amounts of papers too. (i am an accountant myself)

If I could I would do all in my power to avoid it here and keep it in the Netherlands even if it cost me a bit more. This is however a personal opinion.

Only thing is the VAT that might be hard, but if he is only sending out a limited amount of invoices then its not hard at all.

The company does need to report the interest income on the "Loan To Directors" and pay tax on that. Very small tax bill for that, but the accountant needs to include it.

[khunPer]

OP, Harry NL, your best option is what Simon43 suggest.
Wish you good luck...

[nickcar]

Hi all,

Sorry if my post changes the subject from the OP but it is about work permits. I have completed the process to get Thai Nationality with the final step of meeting the Thai special Police to do the swearing in function. Currently waiting for interior ministry signature and His Majesties signature. In the final step they may ask to see my work permit but i dont have one. For months I have been getting agreement from a company and then at the last step a director or shareholder has objected due to my age (71). I work as a computer consultant. I have been told by 2 lawyers that agreeing to work and then changing my mind is perfectlu legal.

I do have a Thai company which has never earend a living but my lawyer has always said i need 4 Thai employees plus records of there social security payments for 3 months.

Some of the information mentioned here suggests this is not true. That i could apply for my work permit while i am looking for the 4 employees.

I must say it has never made sense to me that a foreigner wishing to work is not legally able to until he has employed 4 thais for 3 months.

Would love to hear the work permit experts opinion and suggestion.

[blackcab]

I started working for my present company in early 2015. The company was newly established when it applied for my work permit. The company had to show social fund payments for 4 staff for 1 month before the Ministry of Labour would accept the application.

This was in Bangkok.

[taninthai]

All it means is you won't get B visa

Yes you will get a B visa, but you will not be able to do yearly extensions in Thailand, (because you won't have enough Thai employees to meet the requirement for B visa extensions). Rather, you simply do visa-runs every 90 days, and re-apply outside Thailand for a new B visa when it expires.

Yet issues remain..

B visa multiple entrys are becoming harder to obtain.. Single entry and the request you extend incountry is creeping up. If that becomes firm, the route is shut down.

90 day visa runs, 90 day permission to stay.. The constant need to leave the country, get more visas, go begging around local embassies and consuls... be watchful of this and how shaky your living situation is.. Sure I did it when I was in my 20s, but its not a lifestyle that feels secure enough for me.

For me its either do it properly, and have annual extensions at whatever cost, or dont trade here, do it without telling the Thais authorities and use a marriage or retirement visa.

yep seems this route is not possible anymore according to royal thai consulate uk only single entry b visa are now issued...unless you have a work permit in place already.

[SoFarAndNear]

Hi all,

Sorry if my post changes the subject from the OP but it is about work permits. I have completed the process to get Thai Nationality with the final step of meeting the Thai special Police to do the swearing in function. Currently waiting for interior ministry signature and His Majesties signature. In the final step they may ask to see my work permit but i dont have one. For months I have been getting agreement from a company and then at the last step a director or shareholder has objected due to my age (71). I work as a computer consultant. I have been told by 2 lawyers that agreeing to work and then changing my mind is perfectlu legal.

I do have a Thai company which has never earend a living but my lawyer has always said i need 4 Thai employees plus records of there social security payments for 3 months.

Some of the information mentioned here suggests this is not true. That i could apply for my work permit while i am looking for the 4 employees.

I must say it has never made sense to me that a foreigner wishing to work is not legally able to until he has employed 4 thais for 3 months.

Would love to hear the work permit experts opinion and suggestion.

How could you apply for the Thai Citizenship if you never worked here? I though having a WP and paying taxes for at least 3 years is an absolute requirement?!

[nickcar]

.

How could you apply for the Thai Citizenship if you never worked here? I though having a WP and paying taxes for at least 3 years is an absolute requirement?!

I have lived and worked in Thailand for 20 years. I retired a few months ago not realizing i needed the work permit for swearing in process.

[SoFarAndNear]

.

How could you apply for the Thai Citizenship if you never worked here? I though having a WP and paying taxes for at least 3 years is an absolute requirement?!

I have lived and worked in Thailand for 20 years. I retired a few months ago not realizing i needed the work permit for swearing in process.

So at the moment of your application you had a work permit?

[Bredbury Blue]

does a "Registered sole Trader Business" has any restrictions on foreigner work permit

like in LTD it is 4 Thai for 1 foreign WP -that has been said by those falang laywers

The requirement to employ 4 Thais (or 2 if you are married to a Thai) is not a legal requirement to obtain a WP - it is a requirement of the immigration office to extend a non-immigrant B visa.

That being said, some labour offices are reticent to issue a WP where you are the only employee in a sole-trader business.

My suggestion would be for your GF to ask at the Labour office if they will issue a work permit for her foreign husband so that they can work together in her sole trader internet business that does not complete with other local Thai businesses. she can emphasize that your little business can help local Thai businesses to set up their websites etc, sell online etc ==> ie put some spin on it.

But it is certainly doaable, and legal, and cheap.

^"The requirement to employ 4 Thais (or 2 if you are married to a Thai) is not a legal requirement to obtain a WP - it is a requirement of the immigration office to extend a non-immigrant B visa."

I always thought the employ 4 Thais workers for 1 work permit was a labour department regulation not immigration department regulation so thanks for clarifying that.

[nickcar]

.

How could you apply for the Thai Citizenship if you never worked here? I though having a WP and paying taxes for at least 3 years is an absolute requirement?!

I have lived and worked in Thailand for 20 years. I retired a few months ago not realizing i needed the work permit for swearing in process.

So at the moment of your application you had a work permit?

Yes

[GarryP]

How could you apply for the Thai Citizenship if you never worked here? I though having a WP and paying taxes for at least 3 years is an absolute requirement?!

I have lived and worked in Thailand for 20 years. I retired a few months ago not realizing i needed the work permit for swearing in process.

So at the moment of your application you had a work permit?

Yes

While it is mentioned here and there that you need to remain under a work permit until the last minute, when all ts are crossed and i-s dotted, they did not ask to see my work permit when I took the oath.

[Tomtomtom69]

Can foreigners married to Thais only employ 2 Thais all the time, or only in their first year of operations?