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Twin evils are battling to bring down Thailand

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On the topic of corruption in Thailand. I have two questions that perhps unbiased minds could shed light on it:

1- Who was behind the Palm oil scheme?

2- What minister of Agriculture had to resign in disgrace not to be indicted for benefiting from companies that had received government contracts?

Inquiring minds like to know more about the truth.

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Many people in Thailand ARE sick of corruption. Hence the protest.

Maybe but most Thais are happy to accept it as long as they or the country benefit from it.

Time after time we see polls that asset this belief.

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I love the bland, unsupported assertions like "corruption has got steadily worse since Thaksin...".

It was bad before, it was bad during, it carried on as if nothing had changed during the Dems' period at the helm, it's bad now, and it will be bad for the foreseeable future. Until the voters understand that a deep-rooted culture of nepotism and corruption is at fault - practised by pretty much anyone in a position of power - and not by a few headline-grabbing individuals, nothing will ever change. People are just so naive, and easily manipulated. And not just the Thais, going by the polemics on this forum.

At least during Mark's time, corruption was steady, and did not worsen.

That's precisely the kind of unsupported claim that I was referring to. And even if there existed some form of incontrovertible evidence to back it up, basically you're saying Abhisit did nothing about the problem.

I am pretty sure he stopped the overpriced LPG bus contract which was put up by Bum Jai.

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TVGerry - so long as people resort to attacking Thaksin rather than looking at actions and policies RIGHT NOW, the split in Thai society is only going to worsen. When the current party in power finally comes to its senses and loses the Thaksin stigma - by moving on and promoting those unassociated with the family - what will their political opponents do then? You can bet that they will carry on using the Thaksin card regardless. Attacking the man rather than the argument is so much easier. The fact is that the urban and rural working class represents a majority of voters, and the various elites and middle classes are going to have to come up with some new tactics sooner rather than later.

I'm all for Thaksin and family's removal from politics by democratic means, not least because in the meantime the real issues aren't being addressed. Nepotism and corruption across the board.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

How do you remove the owner of a party? The only thing holding it together is Thaksin's money.

If PTP was to disassociate with the Shinawatras, who would lead it?

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I doubt anyone in the Thai government or in Thai politics have clean hands. However, the PTP takes corruption to another level. How do you prove anything against Yingluck when the agencies supposedly investigating her are in her brother's pocket?

You want to talk about dumb? Dumb is people voting for the same idiots everytime when they've proven themselves corrupt and incompentant. Gotta love the downtrodden masses.

*Spare* - so we "all do it", but "Mark is clean"? Make your mind up. Firstly, I doubt very much that you have an inside line on what goes on behind the scenes in Abhisit's sphere of influence. And parroting hearsay about Yingluck doesn't help either. Evidence, backed up by reliable sources, is what I would love to see. And that would be a first on TV.

Ok a few details over her asset declaration ref Ad Index Co, but hardly earth-shattering or recent news. If proven, she can be kicked out. I'm all for it. But in the meantime the current puerile shenanigans going on as the power-hungry jockey for position would be quite funny, if it didn't hold the potential for more violence. Suthep is a joke. Oh boy, does he love the sound of his own voice. It amazes me that the Thais get taken in by his sabre-rattling nonsense, but then Nuremberg demonstrated the extent to which people can be dumb.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Obviously Thai politics is corrupt. No question about that.

But claims that Phua Thai have taken it to a new level is pure supposition.

There are never any figures to back these assertions,

I am not claiming that they are not corrupt but to make the case facts and figures are needed.

So what was the level of corruption under Abshit....how much was siphoned off and to whom?

What about Surayad's tenure? Who benefited from that?

How does this compare to the current administration?

Without any facts all these claims of "they have taken it to a new level" and "they are more corrupt" are just meaningless.

Fact and figures are not going to be forthcoming - if they were people would be in court pdq. However, one has to ask just why PTP are trying to passing mega-project loans through parliament without referring to the Finance Ministry, without a budget or plan. The only reason can be that because they want to hide where the money is really going or what it will really be used for. There is not even an official breakdown of all those trillions of baht - what was the figure just guessed at? Why tell the house that it is adjourned at midnight until the next morning, then two hours later put to the vote? Why cut of allotted house discussion time in a debate when its the opposition's time to speak? We just had a no confidence vote, yet practically nothing about the rice pledging scheme (disaster) that it was called for - what's to hide?

The difference is obvious. This government is going out of its way to massively increase the country's debt to directly increase their graft - there can be no other reason for the above. This is not skimming - not taking business backhanders for promotions and appointments, contracts and the like - this is wholesale theft of the future - there is a massive difference. It IS a new level!

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"Anand warned that if the culture of corruption is allowed to continue unchecked, the country could be heading for disaster."

This is exactly why 50% of the govt must be "SELECTED" and 50% elected.

cheque = bank balance.

And who is to say that the 50% selected are not corrupt or will not be if they become pissed with power?

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"Anand warned that if the culture of corruption is allowed to continue unchecked, the country could be heading for disaster."

This is exactly why 50% of the govt must be "SELECTED" and 50% elected.

cheque = bank balance.

And who is to say that the 50% selected are not corrupt or will not be if they become pissed with power?

Correct! What are the mechanisms that govern selecting, appointing a member of Parliament?

Vested interests? Personal gain? I scratch your back you scratch my back?

To start the long and difficult road to stamp out corruption here 2 things are needed:

1- accountability

2- punishment befitting the crime.

Both are regarded as un-Thai.

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"Anand warned that if the culture of corruption is allowed to continue unchecked, the country could be heading for disaster."

This is exactly why 50% of the govt must be "SELECTED" and 50% elected.

cheque = bank balance.

And who is to say that the 50% selected are not corrupt or will not be if they become pissed with power?

Depends on how the "selection" takes place. The current method is appointment. This would only make sense if there were fixed seats and the terms were not set to end at the same time (i.e. allowing a landslide upper house to seed a landslide lower house!). A better choice might be by lottery - perhaps from a master list of ex-politicians, businessmen, lawyers, professors etc (or just from a master list of people who put their name forward) - standing politicians could also be selected and given the choice to move houses (not sit in both).

The actual selection process should be each person putting their name in a sack on a standard size piece of paper - and a royal picking out the names. This is the only way it will be believed.

Its a folly to think that the senators will have no political leaning, so ignore it and make the selection non-partisan.

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TVGerry - so long as people resort to attacking Thaksin rather than looking at actions and policies RIGHT NOW, the split in Thai society is only going to worsen. When the current party in power finally comes to its senses and loses the Thaksin stigma - by moving on and promoting those unassociated with the family - what will their political opponents do then? You can bet that they will carry on using the Thaksin card regardless. Attacking the man rather than the argument is so much easier. The fact is that the urban and rural working class represents a majority of voters, and the various elites and middle classes are going to have to come up with some new tactics sooner rather than later.

I'm all for Thaksin and family's removal from politics by democratic means, not least because in the meantime the real issues aren't being addressed. Nepotism and corruption across the board.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

 

How do you remove the owner of a party? The only thing holding it together is Thaksin's money.

 

If PTP was to disassociate with the Shinawatras, who would lead it?

 

 

 

Personally I think if they called for an election today (and they can now the no confidence vote is over) - then by the time it came around PTP would have split - the Reds agenda was not just Thaksin (even though a lot of the Red leaders try to say it is) - it was for change for the poor and rural North/North East. Too much time and effort has been wasted on the single policy of getting Thaksin back his passport, money and liberty - and I believe many in the Red camp believe this also. This could well end up as another Farmers Union Party (that once existed but failed to get a seat) with a less well known Red leader, and the pro-Thaskin PTP side separating. I would suggest the FUP would glean most seats and slip into government - probably with the aid of coalition still. Thios, with the removal of pro-Thaksin side, could even bring across a lot of those small party voters who are caught between elitist parties (yes Thaksin is as elitist as PAD leadership or the Dems). That could be just the kick in the balls this country needs. Lets hope.

 

Although I am pretty sure the PTP are well aware that they barely hold on to some coalition parties, let alone their own heartlands now - there is little chance for an early election. The Dems would not push for it either - as they will not win either. This is what the people should be pushing for, not a totalitarian state run by Suthep!

Yes agree with all that. And underlying your point that Thaksin isn't the only issue for the Reds, years ago (2008?) I talked to red demonstrators in Bangkok and Chiang Mai, and a surprising number of them pointed out that they were more interested in their future rights and benefits than in Thaksin's return. As well as other issues concerning the elite classes (which they were also surprisingly forthcoming about, to a complete stranger and farang in their midst).

So I wouldn't be surprised if today Thaksin is even less of an issue for them.

Of course all parties need funding, which would always be a problem for a loose alliance of workers'/farmers' parties.

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I love the bland, unsupported assertions like "corruption has got steadily worse since Thaksin...".

It was bad before, it was bad during, it carried on as if nothing had changed during the Dems' period at the helm, it's bad now, and it will be bad for the foreseeable future. Until the voters understand that a deep-rooted culture of nepotism and corruption is at fault - practised by pretty much anyone in a position of power - and not by a few headline-grabbing individuals, nothing will ever change. People are just so naive, and easily manipulated. And not just the Thais, going by the polemics on this forum.

 

At least during Mark's time, corruption was steady, and did not worsen.

 

That's precisely the kind of unsupported claim that I was referring to. And even if there existed some form of incontrovertible evidence to back it up, basically you're saying Abhisit did nothing about the problem.

 

 

Mark is clean. He did nothing because he could not stop his MPs from taking as usual.

Thaksin/Yingluck are different. Instead of did nothing like Mark, they joint in the fun and take more that what their MPs are taking, worsen the matter.

 

All Thai have accepted the fact that corruption cannot be stop. But what the current protesters (Suthep included) cannot stand, is that the PM is in it himself/herself.

 

Before you say another word, we all have our fair share of slipping 100 Baht to the police for jumping the red light, or riding without helmet. It is widely acceptable in Thai society.

anyone understand any of that except the last paragraph?

Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

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In Thailand, the checks and balances come in the form of the people on the streets and the army. In most other countries, a corrupt and ineffectual government like Yingluck's would have gone down long ago and a whole bunch of them would have been prosecuted for all the crap they've done. Since that's not happening, it's up to the people to bring down this government. Failing which, the army hopefully will.

Churchill said Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others. the sooner Thailand recognizes this the better off it will be. Every vote counts the same whether you like it or not. Your outlook might seem more enlightened to yourself, in fact it would be surprising if it didn't, but if it doesn't match the majority you will just have to hone your powers of persuasion for the next election.
There needs to be checks and balances and means to stop malicious persecution by those in power and controlling their use of public funds. But every democratically elected government can not be brought down from the streets. This is a "tyranny of the minority". A far more dangerous thing.

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