Thailand third worst in the world for road deaths; Phuket killing someone every three days

[Loptr]

I would respectfully contend that Dr Jinvong is full of crap. At 38 deaths per 100,000, that places Thailand WAY down the list. The US for example has 164 deaths per 100,000 annually. Not sure where he is getting his statistics, but they are incorrect.

[wilcopops]

It seems to me to have several root causes.

1/ Education, there needs to be a forced driving curriculum where drivers are required to have so many lessons etc and may only go forward for the test when qualified. I insisted on my wife doing this and it worked.

2/ The test itself has to be worthwhile, any idiot can pass here. Also with the pretty well 100% pass rate guarenteed it is meaningless.

3/ Of course you can buy your license if you want. Corruption needs to be removed.

4/ Laws are there, they just need to be enforced. Police need to do their job, not just go for the money.

5/ Educate the people that an amulet or flowers etc will not protect you.

6/ Ensure motor vehicles are safe, introduce yearly safety checks that really ensure this, not the simple kick the tyres we have now.

I am sure I have missed many points but these would certainly help.

The 5 "E's of road safety........?

Maybe, never heard of the 5 E's. Where do they come from?

the basis of all road safety and most posters here have never heard of it....that's why most of the post are purely prejudice or conjecture.

[impulse]

I would respectfully contend that Dr Jinvong is full of crap. At 38 deaths per 100,000, that places Thailand WAY down the list. The US for example has 164 deaths per 100,000 annually. Not sure where he is getting his statistics, but they are incorrect.

With a US population of 325 Million, you're saying that there are 533,000 traffic fatalities in the USA each year?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Have to be careful whether the statistic quoted is deaths per capita, deaths per vehicle, or deaths per km (or, in the US, deaths per 100 million miles)

Even in the case of deaths per billion km, some countries report deaths per passenger miles, others report deaths per vehicle miles. In countries where 80 passengers ride in buses, that makes a big difference.

And, as others point out, places like Thailand only report those declared dead at the scene, while the USA reports all deaths within 30 days that are a result of the accident.

Edited January 26, 2014 by impulse

[wilcopops]

I would respectfully contend that Dr Jinvong is full of crap. At 38 deaths per 100,000, that places Thailand WAY down the list. The US for example has 164 deaths per 100,000 annually. Not sure where he is getting his statistics, but they are incorrect.

With a US population of 325 Million, you're saying that there are 533,000 traffic fatalities in the USA each year?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Have to be careful whether the statistic quoted is deaths per capita, deaths per vehicle, or deaths per km (or, in the US, deaths per 100 million miles)

Even in the case of deaths per billion km, some countries report deaths per passenger miles, others report deaths per vehicle miles. In countries where 80 passengers ride in buses, that makes a big difference.

And, as others point out, places like Thailand only report those declared dead at the scene, while the USA reports all deaths within 30 days that are a result of the accident.

Flinging stats around rally just shows how little value they have and how open to (mis?)interpretation they are.

E.G. - More people are killed on US roads than in any of their current wars - is this acceptable?

[wilcopops]

If you don't know what the 5 Es ae, read this..........

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=2360463

5 “E”s ......

1. Education

2. Enforcement

3. Engineering

4. Emergency

5. Evaluation

You can't have one without the others!

Edited January 27, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

As for other drivers...

wiki.

Progress in the area of prevention is formulated in an environment of beliefs, called paradigms as can be seen in the next table. Some of them can be referred to as professional folklore, i.e. a widely supported set of beliefs with no real basis. For example, the “accident-prone driver” was a belief that was supported by the data in the sense that a small number of drivers do participate in a disproportionate number of accidents, it follows that the identification and removal of this drivers will reduce crashes. A more scientific analysis of the data indicate that this phenomenon can be explained simply by the random nature of the accidents, and not for a specific error-prone attitude of such drivers.

[Brevity]

I didn't read everything, but was there any talk about doing something to stop one of the most common problems of children riding motorcycles and against traffic? Often 4 or so of them on one and none with helmets on. Near my home, where there are some schools, I have seen that situation often as they ride merrily by a BIB going the wrong way on the shoulder and he doesn't bat an eye. I might also suggest that they actually test people on the road in real traffic before issuing a diving licence.

[impulse]

I would respectfully contend that Dr Jinvong is full of crap. At 38 deaths per 100,000, that places Thailand WAY down the list. The US for example has 164 deaths per 100,000 annually. Not sure where he is getting his statistics, but they are incorrect.

With a US population of 325 Million, you're saying that there are 533,000 traffic fatalities in the USA each year?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Have to be careful whether the statistic quoted is deaths per capita, deaths per vehicle, or deaths per km (or, in the US, deaths per 100 million miles)

Even in the case of deaths per billion km, some countries report deaths per passenger miles, others report deaths per vehicle miles. In countries where 80 passengers ride in buses, that makes a big difference.

And, as others point out, places like Thailand only report those declared dead at the scene, while the USA reports all deaths within 30 days that are a result of the accident.

Flinging stats around rally just shows how little value they have and how open to (mis?)interpretation they are.

E.G. - More people are killed on US roads than in any of their current wars - is this acceptable?

If you want to discuss how nice a place is, or how friendly the people are, or how good the food is, by all means, forget the statistics.

But any discussion of how safe one place is compared to another place starts with statistics. The discussion doesn't end with the statistics, and the statistics do have to be scrutinized rather than accepted blindly.

But if the comparison doesn't start with the numbers, it's just bar talk.

[wilcopops]

I would respectfully contend that Dr Jinvong is full of crap. At 38 deaths per 100,000, that places Thailand WAY down the list. The US for example has 164 deaths per 100,000 annually. Not sure where he is getting his statistics, but they are incorrect.

With a US population of 325 Million, you're saying that there are 533,000 traffic fatalities in the USA each year?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Have to be careful whether the statistic quoted is deaths per capita, deaths per vehicle, or deaths per km (or, in the US, deaths per 100 million miles)

Even in the case of deaths per billion km, some countries report deaths per passenger miles, others report deaths per vehicle miles. In countries where 80 passengers ride in buses, that makes a big difference.

And, as others point out, places like Thailand only report those declared dead at the scene, while the USA reports all deaths within 30 days that are a result of the accident.

Flinging stats around rally just shows how little value they have and how open to (mis?)interpretation they are.

E.G. - More people are killed on US roads than in any of their current wars - is this acceptable?

If you want to discuss how nice a place is, or how friendly the people are, or how good the food is, by all means, forget the statistics.

But any discussion of how safe one place is compared to another place starts with statistics. The discussion doesn't end with the statistics, and the statistics do have to be scrutinized rather than accepted blindly.

But if the comparison doesn't start with the numbers, it's just bar talk.

That is SOOOOO naive........you don't seem to grasp the first thing about stats if that is how you think.

you are making all sorts of assumptions about how different sets of stats are complied and used....in the end you are just comparing apples and elephants....to no avail whatsoever.

motoring stats in particular are particularly a minefield....have you considered who does and doesn't actually qualify asa "road fatality"?

How this may be reported or applied in different countries (especially in Thailand)

Who complies these stats? Who publishes them and who actually analyses them and goes to press?

In many cases we are talking only of DEATHS - well is as I pointed out in Thailand the majority seems to be motorcyclists....this would not apply to countries like the U.S.

Te US has not got a tradition of "serious" driver testing (remember that drivers in the States are also 3rd or 4th generation drivers and the older ones are seriously under-trained. In Europe some countries have had rigorous testing AND education for decides whereas others were until recently almost as bad as Thailand......there are SO MANY factors to take into account just dying to compare one country to another is frankly a facile approach to the subject.

One needs to look holistically at the situation in Thailand and then apply the SCIENCE OF ROAD SAFETY (yes, 5 Es) to the situation and NOT think that blind or semi-blind faith in statistics will contribute anything of significance to the discussion.

Like personal anecdotes they are in fact mostly subjective and irrelevant.

[wilcopops]

I would respectfully contend that Dr Jinvong is full of crap. At 38 deaths per 100,000, that places Thailand WAY down the list. The US for example has 164 deaths per 100,000 annually. Not sure where he is getting his statistics, but they are incorrect.

With a US population of 325 Million, you're saying that there are 533,000 traffic fatalities in the USA each year?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Have to be careful whether the statistic quoted is deaths per capita, deaths per vehicle, or deaths per km (or, in the US, deaths per 100 million miles)

Even in the case of deaths per billion km, some countries report deaths per passenger miles, others report deaths per vehicle miles. In countries where 80 passengers ride in buses, that makes a big difference.

And, as others point out, places like Thailand only report those declared dead at the scene, while the USA reports all deaths within 30 days that are a result of the accident.

Flinging stats around rally just shows how little value they have and how open to (mis?)interpretation they are.

E.G. - More people are killed on US roads than in any of their current wars - is this acceptable?

If you want to discuss how nice a place is, or how friendly the people are, or how good the food is, by all means, forget the statistics.

But any discussion of how safe one place is compared to another place starts with statistics. The discussion doesn't end with the statistics, and the statistics do have to be scrutinized rather than accepted blindly.

But if the comparison doesn't start with the numbers, it's just bar talk.

That is SOOOOO naive........you don't seem to grasp the first thing about stats if that is how you think.

you are making all sorts of assumptions about how different sets of stats are complied and used....in the end you are just comparing apples and elephants....to no avail whatsoever.

motoring stats in particular are particularly a minefield....have you considered who does and doesn't actually qualify asa "road fatality"?

How this may be reported or applied in different countries (especially in Thailand)

Who complies these stats? Who publishes them and who actually analyses them and goes to press?

In many cases we are talking only of DEATHS - well is as I pointed out in Thailand the majority seems to be motorcyclists....this would not apply to countries like the U.S.

Te US has not got a tradition of "serious" driver testing (remember that drivers in the States are also 3rd or 4th generation drivers and the older ones are seriously under-trained. In Europe some countries have had rigorous testing AND education for decides whereas others were until recently almost as bad as Thailand......there are SO MANY factors to take into account just dying to compare one country to another is frankly a facile approach to the subject.

One needs to look holistically at the situation in Thailand and then apply the SCIENCE OF ROAD SAFETY (yes, 5 Es) to the situation and NOT think that blind or semi-blind faith in statistics will contribute anything of significance to the discussion.

Like personal anecdotes they are in fact mostly subjective and irrelevant.

[wilcopops]

With a US population of 325 Million, you're saying that there are 533,000 traffic fatalities in the USA each year?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

Have to be careful whether the statistic quoted is deaths per capita, deaths per vehicle, or deaths per km (or, in the US, deaths per 100 million miles)

Even in the case of deaths per billion km, some countries report deaths per passenger miles, others report deaths per vehicle miles. In countries where 80 passengers ride in buses, that makes a big difference.

And, as others point out, places like Thailand only report those declared dead at the scene, while the USA reports all deaths within 30 days that are a result of the accident.

Flinging stats around rally just shows how little value they have and how open to (mis?)interpretation they are.

E.G. - More people are killed on US roads than in any of their current wars - is this acceptable?

If you want to discuss how nice a place is, or how friendly the people are, or how good the food is, by all means, forget the statistics.

But any discussion of how safe one place is compared to another place starts with statistics. The discussion doesn't end with the statistics, and the statistics do have to be scrutinized rather than accepted blindly.

But if the comparison doesn't start with the numbers, it's just bar talk.

That is SOOOOO naive........you don't seem to grasp the first thing about stats if that is how you think.

you are making all sorts of assumptions about how different sets of stats are complied and used....in the end you are just comparing apples and elephants....to no avail whatsoever.

motoring stats in particular are particularly a minefield....have you considered who does and doesn't actually qualify asa "road fatality"?

How this may be reported or applied in different countries (especially in Thailand)

Who complies these stats? Who publishes them and who actually analyses them and goes to press?

In many cases we are talking only of DEATHS - well is as I pointed out in Thailand the majority seems to be motorcyclists....this would not apply to countries like the U.S.

Te US has not got a tradition of "serious" driver testing (remember that drivers in the States are also 3rd or 4th generation drivers and the older ones are seriously under-trained. In Europe some countries have had rigorous testing AND education for decides whereas others were until recently almost as bad as Thailand......there are SO MANY factors to take into account just dying to compare one country to another is frankly a facile approach to the subject.

One needs to look holistically at the situation in Thailand and then apply the SCIENCE OF ROAD SAFETY (yes, 5 Es) to the situation and NOT think that blind or semi-blind faith in statistics will contribute anything of significance to the discussion.

Like personal anecdotes they are in fact mostly subjective and irrelevant.

I might also add that unless you take into account the 5 Es any statistic is going to be more or less worthless.

Take for instance the quality of roads and traffic engineering in Thailand or the emergency services (almost total lack thereof) an d you'll see that fatalities however recorded are going to be higher. Use these figures to infer that Thai people are bad drivers and you are on to a hiding to nothing.......

So it really isn't the "numbers" that matter at all it's how you look at them and what you conclude and that is seldom a simple as some would like to believe.

[Jeremy50]

I had realised that Thailand has a bad road death record, but I had not expected it to be so high on a world scale.

Just goes to show we are all rolling the dice out there on the roads.

Scary.

No, not really. Follow the rules you learnt back home. Look far ahead, drive defensively and keep your speed down. Drive a large truck and never get on a motorbike. Never be driven by a local. 120000k of safe driving in Thailand without incident.

[impulse]

I might also add that unless you take into account the 5 Es any statistic is going to be more or less worthless.

Take for instance the quality of roads and traffic engineering in Thailand or the emergency services (almost total lack thereof) an d you'll see that fatalities however recorded are going to be higher. Use these figures to infer that Thai people are bad drivers and you are on to a hiding to nothing.......

So it really isn't the "numbers" that matter at all it's how you look at them and what you conclude and that is seldom a simple as some would like to believe.

You haven't seen me claiming that Thai's are worse drivers. In fact, my first post on this thread is about the effects of economics on the death rate- not poor driving skills. A statement I've been defending against all kinds of racist remarks about Thai thinking, reasoning, and driving skills.

The ONLY number that matters to me are what are my chances of being hurt or killed in an accident in a given number of miles I plan to cover while I'm in country. Whether the cause is poor driving, poor engineering or lack of emergency services makes no difference to me. I can't affect any of the factors in the 5 E's. My only choice is how I travel and how much I travel in country.

In Thailand, I drive my 4 wheel vehicle only when I'm going out of town, my scooter stays parked until I sell it, and I stay off mini-vans and most inter-city buses. I take the BTS and MRT in town, and I walk a lot- with some riding my e-bike close to home.. In China, I never drove in 10 years, stayed off the expressways unless I had to travel, and stayed off them 100% if the weather was bad. In the USA, I drive everywhere when I can, only flying if I have a very tight schedule- because I love long distance driving in the USA. Hate it in Thailand, refuse to do it in China.

But the reason I hate it in Thailand isn't the danger. It's just so foreign to me that it's not comfortable. Yes, they do pass like we don't back home. But white knuckles on my part don't mean I was in danger. Why? Because that's the way they do it, everyone expects it, and people move aside rather than being "in the right" like back home.

We've discussed several times what qualifies as a traffic fatality and the differences between how they're recorded in the USA, Thailand. We've also had many discussions over countless threads about how various international agencies believe Thailand's reported numbers are much lower than the real numbers, even given that they only report fatalities declared at the scene. If you really want to see murky statistics, look up China's. Not sure the real numbers are still out there because the guys who reported them were threatened with prison for revealing state secrets. Short story, they compared hospital reports of fatalities with traffic police reports of fatalities and found out they were almost an order of magnitude apart.

We're closer on this than I think you realize. I believe Thailand's 3rd place standing (per 100,000 population) is because of the high number of (inherently dangerous) scooter riders per 100,000 population, and the high percentage of vehicles that are scooters, not because of driving skills. And that's driven by economics, not lack of common sense or (my favorite racist slur) "cognitive reasoning".

I can't discuss the statistics that are important to me (accidents, injuries and fatalities per km driven) because Thailand doesn't publish those numbers.

Edited January 28, 2014 by impulse

[wilcopops]

I might also add that unless you take into account the 5 Es any statistic is going to be more or less worthless.

Take for instance the quality of roads and traffic engineering in Thailand or the emergency services (almost total lack thereof) an d you'll see that fatalities however recorded are going to be higher. Use these figures to infer that Thai people are bad drivers and you are on to a hiding to nothing.......

So it really isn't the "numbers" that matter at all it's how you look at them and what you conclude and that is seldom a simple as some would like to believe.

You haven't seen me claiming that Thai's are worse drivers. In fact, my first post on this thread is about the effects of economics on the death rate- not poor driving skills. A statement I've been defending against all kinds of racist remarks about Thai thinking, reasoning, and driving skills.

The ONLY number that matters to me are what are my chances of being hurt or killed in an accident in a given number of miles I plan to cover while I'm in country. Whether the cause is poor driving, poor engineering or lack of emergency services makes no difference to me. I can't affect any of the factors in the 5 E's. My only choice is how I travel and how much I travel in country.

In Thailand, I drive my 4 wheel vehicle only when I'm going out of town, my scooter stays parked until I sell it, and I stay off mini-vans and most inter-city buses. I take the BTS and MRT in town, and I walk a lot- with some riding my e-bike close to home.. In China, I never drove in 10 years, stayed off the expressways unless I had to travel, and stayed off them 100% if the weather was bad. In the USA, I drive everywhere when I can, only flying if I have a very tight schedule- because I love long distance driving in the USA. Hate it in Thailand, refuse to do it in China.

But the reason I hate it in Thailand isn't the danger. It's just so foreign to me that it's not comfortable. Yes, they do pass like we don't back home. But white knuckles on my part don't mean I was in danger. Why? Because that's the way they do it, everyone expects it, and people move aside rather than being "in the right" like back home.

We've discussed several times what qualifies as a traffic fatality and the differences between how they're recorded in the USA, Thailand. We've also had many discussions over countless threads about how various international agencies believe Thailand's reported numbers are much lower than the real numbers, even given that they only report fatalities declared at the scene. If you really want to see murky statistics, look up China's. Not sure the real numbers are still out there because the guys who reported them were threatened with prison for revealing state secrets. Short story, they compared hospital reports of fatalities with traffic police reports of fatalities and found out they were almost an order of magnitude apart.

We're closer on this than I think you realize. I believe Thailand's 3rd place standing (per 100,000 population) is because of the high number of (inherently dangerous) scooter riders per 100,000 population, and the high percentage of vehicles that are scooters, not because of driving skills. And that's driven by economics, not lack of common sense or (my favorite racist slur) "cognitive reasoning".

I can't discuss the statistics that are important to me (accidents, injuries and fatalities per km driven) because Thailand doesn't publish those numbers.

It looks to me that

you are shifting your position (nothing particularly wrong in that)

or

you didn't explain yourself fully before.

and you are not a confident or experienced driver yourself and you avoid road use of any form as much as possible.

Edited January 29, 2014 by wilcopops

[pokerface1]

Yep that's very true they are in the mind set of not noticing many things. I think it's because they are in a survival mode of thinking and seeing the world around them. How can the world be any different than what it is, must be there catch cry. As soon as they find a comfort state of mind with wealth and support I think things will improve for the better. Oh and the bigger my car or truck the safer I am is quite an obvious way of seeing safety with a blindfold on

A road safety campaign or brain washing out of old and dangerous driving habits is best served up in prime time TV. Showing all the blood and guts at meal time across all channels. Another less brutal series of ads should be aimed at the kids prime time as well so they can learn about being a safe passenger by putting pressure on the driver to be more careful.

In the end the quickest way to fix the problem is to reward the good drivers and punish the bad ...it's that simple

Every now and again I see very graphic accident pics at the local municipal bus station. All the gore you could ask for. For whatever reason people either ignore or don't seem to notice.

[wilcopops]

Yep that's very true they are in the mind set of not noticing many things. I think it's because they are in a survival mode of thinking and seeing the world around them. How can the world be any different than what it is, must be there catch cry. As soon as they find a comfort state of mind with wealth and support I think things will improve for the better. Oh and the bigger my car or truck the safer I am is quite an obvious way of seeing safety with a blindfold on

A road safety campaign or brain washing out of old and dangerous driving habits is best served up in prime time TV. Showing all the blood and guts at meal time across all channels. Another less brutal series of ads should be aimed at the kids prime time as well so they can learn about being a safe passenger by putting pressure on the driver to be more careful.

In the end the quickest way to fix the problem is to reward the good drivers and punish the bad ...it's that simple

Every now and again I see very graphic accident pics at the local municipal bus station. All the gore you could ask for. For whatever reason people either ignore or don't seem to notice.

Complete nonsense - accidents are NEVER reduced accidents by showing prime-time gore!!!! - This simply doesn't work, people get acclimatised.

If you look at the countries that have the LOWEST accident rates, they only used to have very low key but EFFECTIVE road safety campaigns aimed at EDUCATION not shock.

Also as I"ve said time and again, you want even dent accident figures unless you address ALL aspects of road safety ( the 5 Es) and driver behaviour is only a part of ONE of them.

Just talk about drivers and you are BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE.

Edited February 9, 2014 by wilcopops

[NamKangMan]

Yep that's very true they are in the mind set of not noticing many things. I think it's because they are in a survival mode of thinking and seeing the world around them. How can the world be any different than what it is, must be there catch cry. As soon as they find a comfort state of mind with wealth and support I think things will improve for the better. Oh and the bigger my car or truck the safer I am is quite an obvious way of seeing safety with a blindfold on

A road safety campaign or brain washing out of old and dangerous driving habits is best served up in prime time TV. Showing all the blood and guts at meal time across all channels. Another less brutal series of ads should be aimed at the kids prime time as well so they can learn about being a safe passenger by putting pressure on the driver to be more careful.

In the end the quickest way to fix the problem is to reward the good drivers and punish the bad ...it's that simple

Every now and again I see very graphic accident pics at the local municipal bus station. All the gore you could ask for. For whatever reason people either ignore or don't seem to notice.

Complete nonsense - accidents are NEVER reduced accidents by showing prime-time gore!!!! - This simply doesn't work, people get acclimatised.

If you look at the countries that have the LOWEST accident rates, they only used to have very low key but EFFECTIVE road safety campaigns aimed at EDUCATION not shock.

Also as I"ve said time and again, you want even dent accident figures unless you address ALL aspects of road safety ( the 5 Es) and driver behaviour is only a part of ONE of them.

Just talk about drivers and you are BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE.

I disagree.

If someone goes to the bus station and sees all the photos of bus accidents, all over Thailand, with all the deah and gore, that may influence them to fly, rather than travel by road, thus, reducing the risk to themselves, therefore, possibly saving their life. :)

[wilcopops]

Yep that's very true they are in the mind set of not noticing many things. I think it's because they are in a survival mode of thinking and seeing the world around them. How can the world be any different than what it is, must be there catch cry. As soon as they find a comfort state of mind with wealth and support I think things will improve for the better. Oh and the bigger my car or truck the safer I am is quite an obvious way of seeing safety with a blindfold on

Every now and again I see very graphic accident pics at the local municipal bus station. All the gore you could ask for. For whatever reason people either ignore or don't seem to notice.

Complete nonsense - accidents are NEVER reduced accidents by showing prime-time gore!!!! - This simply doesn't work, people get acclimatised.

If you look at the countries that have the LOWEST accident rates, they only used to have very low key but EFFECTIVE road safety campaigns aimed at EDUCATION not shock.

Also as I"ve said time and again, you want even dent accident figures unless you address ALL aspects of road safety ( the 5 Es) and driver behaviour is only a part of ONE of them.

Just talk about drivers and you are BARKING UP THE WRONG TREE.

I disagree.

If someone goes to the bus station and sees all the photos of bus accidents, all over Thailand, with all the deah and gore, that may influence them to fly, rather than travel by road, thus, reducing the risk to themselves, therefore, possibly saving their life.

There is NO evidence to support this.

Thailand - pictures of gore - very high death rates.

UK no pictures of gore EVER - some of the lowest accident rates in the world.

See if you can find any evidence to suggest that your idea works.

[NamKangMan]

@ wilcopops

See if you can find any evidence that it doesn't work. Remember, it's only got to save ONE life, and it has worked.

Ok, I will speak for myself. I went on one visa run in a minibus, a few years ago - never again. Now, I fly for my visa runs. Did graphic pictures effect my decision to fly, no, because I didn't need to see them - I know I would havw died if that crazy visa run driver crashed.

What about all the news stories of bus crashes in Thailand. Don't you think this causes some people to fly???? Don't you think people can mentally picture the carnage when to vehicle collide at 100 kmph?

You mention the UK. Here's one story I remember that must have had an effect on people's choice of mode of transport for long distances in Thailand. I believe these mothers created a website - I just couldn't find it.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/sep/16/thailand-mothers-memory-sons

No need for graphic pictures. The news stories and road statistics in Thailand speak for themself.

You mention EDUCATION. Here's some education for you. Thailand is a 3rd World Country with poor safety standards, poorly maintained vehicles, and where corruption is rife.

Road transport is barely regulated and road laws hardly enforced. No need to see graphic pictures when you know this. It makes the decision NOT to get on the roads here and easy one.

The title of this thread speaks for itself.

[wilcopops]

@ wilcopops

See if you can find any evidence that it doesn't work. Remember, it's only got to save ONE life, and it has worked.

Ok, I will speak for myself. I went on one visa run in a minibus, a few years ago - never again. Now, I fly for my visa runs. Did graphic pictures effect my decision to fly, no, because I didn't need to see them - I know I would havw died if that crazy visa run driver crashed.

What about all the news stories of bus crashes in Thailand. Don't you think this causes some people to fly???? Don't you think people can mentally picture the carnage when to vehicle collide at 100 kmph?

You mention the UK. Here's one story I remember that must have had an effect on people's choice of mode of transport for long distances in Thailand. I believe these mothers created a website - I just couldn't find it.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/sep/16/thailand-mothers-memory-sons

No need for graphic pictures. The news stories and road statistics in Thailand speak for themself.

You mention EDUCATION. Here's some education for you. Thailand is a 3rd World Country with poor safety standards, poorly maintained vehicles, and where corruption is rife.

Road transport is barely regulated and road laws hardly enforced. No need to see graphic pictures when you know this. It makes the decision NOT to get on the roads here and easy one.

The title of this thread speaks for itself.

It's clear you don't understand how to present your case....I have already shown you some evidence but you can't recognise it. Added to that you seem to have no idea how subjective your comments are. I feel that any further discussion with you is a waste of time.

Edited February 10, 2014 by wilcopops

[andreandre]

@ wilcopops

See if you can find any evidence that it doesn't work. Remember, it's only got to save ONE life, and it has worked.

Ok, I will speak for myself. I went on one visa run in a minibus, a few years ago - never again. Now, I fly for my visa runs. Did graphic pictures effect my decision to fly, no, because I didn't need to see them - I know I would havw died if that crazy visa run driver crashed.

What about all the news stories of bus crashes in Thailand. Don't you think this causes some people to fly???? Don't you think people can mentally picture the carnage when to vehicle collide at 100 kmph?

You mention the UK. Here's one story I remember that must have had an effect on people's choice of mode of transport for long distances in Thailand. I believe these mothers created a website - I just couldn't find it.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/sep/16/thailand-mothers-memory-sons

No need for graphic pictures. The news stories and road statistics in Thailand speak for themself.

You mention EDUCATION. Here's some education for you. Thailand is a 3rd World Country with poor safety standards, poorly maintained vehicles, and where corruption is rife.

Road transport is barely regulated and road laws hardly enforced. No need to see graphic pictures when you know this. It makes the decision NOT to get on the roads here and easy one.

The title of this thread speaks for itself.

"What about all the news stories of bus crashes in Thailand. Don't you think this causes some people to fly???? Don't you think people can mentally picture the carnage when to vehicle collide at 100 kmph?"

And there are no collisions/deaths on the roads to and from the airport huh?

When your number is up..it's up..end of, IMO

Also, pedantic maybe, but LOS is not a 3rd world country...

[Felt 35]

IMO there are only five efficient ways to lower traffic accidents and fatalities in Thailand. 1. Learning from birth that discipline and respect is a must in most life situations and not only for anyone above in the hiarki. 2.Real driver education based on international standards. 3. Police enforcing the existing home modificated traffic regulations / laws until phased out by international traffic regulations. 4.Severe punishment if breaking the traffic laws. 5. Encourage the use of an optimal combination of modes of transport, including walking, cycling and private and public means of transportation through appropriate pricing, spatial settlement policies and regulatory measures.

Edited February 10, 2014 by Felt 35

[wilcopops]

Actually as there seems to be several people who have no clue about road safety I will say a bit more.

I notice above that someone else has cottoned on to the basis of ALL road safety the 5Es - if you don't understand this then quite frankly you are in no position to comment on road safety.

Now....let's just use a bit of common sense regarding the idea of posting gore all over the place. What in reality will it do??? Just think for one minute...... If a bad driver sees a picture like that, what is the effect will it have in reality? - The best you can hope for is that he/she will drive more slowly for a short period of time. They will still be driving badly because no one has told them any different. In fact research has shown when people are shown stuff like this they actually disassociate themselves from it and assume it applies to other drivers and not themselves.

So...... will it improve their driving NO! Will it teach them the rudiments of the driving correctly? NO! Will it make the roads themselves better? NO! Will it improve road building? NO! Will it improve emergency services? NO! Will it address ANY of the 5Es? NO! It is quite simply a idea without any basis in reason or reality. Just like so many of the pronouncements you see on raid safety made both on this thread and by the Thai government.

Edited February 10, 2014 by wilcopops

[wilcopops]

IMO there are only five efficient ways to lower traffic accidents and fatalities in Thailand. 1. Learning from birth that discipline and respect is a must in most life situations and not only for anyone above in the hiarki. 2.Real driver education based on international standards. 3. Police enforcing the existing home modificated traffic regulations / laws until phased out by international traffic regulations. 4.Severe punishment if breaking the traffic laws. 5. Encourage the use of an optimal combination of modes of transport, including walking, cycling and private and public means of transportation through appropriate pricing, spatial settlement policies and regulatory measures.

Sounds good doesn't it? BUT like so many other posters you concentrate only on the driver. Although a major factor it is by no means the only factor. You mention enforcement...that is one of the Es but you don't get to grips with road and traffic engineering emergency services and government examination of the measures in place......none of which is up to any acceptable standard in Thailand. No matter how much people bewail the driving in Thailand they are misinterpreting the problem completely. Edited February 10, 2014 by wilcopops

[NamKangMan]

Actually as there seems to be several people who have no clue about road safety I will say a bit more.

I notice above that someone else has cottoned on to the basis of ALL road safety the 5Es - if you don't understand this then quite frankly you are in no position to comment on road safety.

Now....let's just use a bit of common sense regarding the idea of posting gore all over the place. What in reality will it do??? Just think for one minute...... If a bad driver sees a picture like that, what is the effect will it have in reality? - The best you can hope for is that he/she will drive more slowly for a short period of time. They will still be driving badly because no one has told them any different. In fact research has shown when people are shown stuff like this they actually disassociate themselves from it and assume it applies to other drivers and not themselves.

So...... will it improve their driving NO! Will it teach them the rudiments of the driving correctly? NO! Will it make the roads themselves better? NO! Will it improve road building? NO! Will it improve emergency services? NO! Will it address ANY of the 5Es? NO! It is quite simply a idea without any basis in reason or reality. Just like so many of the pronouncements you see on raid safety made both on this thread and by the Thai government.

Of course the posting of graphic photos everywhere is not the only answer to road safety in Thailand, and I agree with your "5 E's." I was merely pointing out that if those photos had an effect on just one person, it's had a positive effect for road safety.

You keep banging on about graphic photos. People don't need to see the photos - just read a headline like "Phuket killing someone every three days" is enough for people to know the roads are dangerous here.

Is the thread title not graphic enough? What about Thailand's road death statistics - third worst in the world? The news, the headlines, the stats, say it all.

Here's an example. How many tourists have heard of "the jet ski scam on Phuket?" Do they really need to see the You Tube videos? They read about it, hear about it from others, and then many don't hire them.

I'm well known on the Phuket forum for my opinion on how the lack of public transport has a direct effect on the traffic, roads condition, parking, pollution, accidents and deaths and injury on Phuket.

With no public transport here, EVERYONE has control of a potentially deadly weapon (car and/or bike) - there's more things that effect road fatalities on Phuket than just your "5 E's." Remember, I agree with them, but a lot more needs to be done than just them.

[NamKangMan]

@ wilcopops

See if you can find any evidence that it doesn't work. Remember, it's only got to save ONE life, and it has worked.

Ok, I will speak for myself. I went on one visa run in a minibus, a few years ago - never again. Now, I fly for my visa runs. Did graphic pictures effect my decision to fly, no, because I didn't need to see them - I know I would havw died if that crazy visa run driver crashed.

What about all the news stories of bus crashes in Thailand. Don't you think this causes some people to fly???? Don't you think people can mentally picture the carnage when to vehicle collide at 100 kmph?

You mention the UK. Here's one story I remember that must have had an effect on people's choice of mode of transport for long distances in Thailand. I believe these mothers created a website - I just couldn't find it.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/sep/16/thailand-mothers-memory-sons

No need for graphic pictures. The news stories and road statistics in Thailand speak for themself.

You mention EDUCATION. Here's some education for you. Thailand is a 3rd World Country with poor safety standards, poorly maintained vehicles, and where corruption is rife.

Road transport is barely regulated and road laws hardly enforced. No need to see graphic pictures when you know this. It makes the decision NOT to get on the roads here and easy one.

The title of this thread speaks for itself.

"What about all the news stories of bus crashes in Thailand. Don't you think this causes some people to fly???? Don't you think people can mentally picture the carnage when to vehicle collide at 100 kmph?"

And there are no collisions/deaths on the roads to and from the airport huh?

When your number is up..it's up..end of, IMO

Also, pedantic maybe, but LOS is not a 3rd world country...

Yes, of course there are accidents to and from the airport, however a 1 hour journey, compared to a 12 hour journey, is considerably less risk.

[Felt 35]

IMO there are only five efficient ways to lower traffic accidents and fatalities in Thailand. 1. Learning from birth that discipline and respect is a must in most life situations and not only for anyone above in the hiarki. 2.Real driver education based on international standards. 3. Police enforcing the existing home modificated traffic regulations / laws until phased out by international traffic regulations. 4.Severe punishment if breaking the traffic laws. 5. Encourage the use of an optimal combination of modes of transport, including walking, cycling and private and public means of transportation through appropriate pricing, spatial settlement policies and regulatory measures.

Sounds good doesn't it? BUT like so many other posters you concentrate only on the driver. Although a major factor it is by no means the only factor. You mention enforcement...that is one of the Es but you don't get to grips with road and traffic engineering emergency services and government examination of the measures in place......none of which is up to any acceptable standard in Thailand. No matter how much people bewail the driving in Thailand they are misinterpreting the problem completely.

The road and how the traffic engineering is done don't come against you drunk and at speed of 150km/h nor do the emergency service. That not means road engineering or emergency service not could be better, but its far from the first steps they need to do here. The Government don't control and examinate anything else than what bring in money here so yes as a driver you are the most important part out there.

[IrishIvan]

I would be interested in the Thai/Falang ratio of deaths over the last 10 years

[Somtamnication]

It may be 3rd. in road deaths worldwide, but it is #1 in political circuses! Strive to be number 1, my granny said to me.

[andreandre]

@ wilcopops

See if you can find any evidence that it doesn't work. Remember, it's only got to save ONE life, and it has worked.

Ok, I will speak for myself. I went on one visa run in a minibus, a few years ago - never again. Now, I fly for my visa runs. Did graphic pictures effect my decision to fly, no, because I didn't need to see them - I know I would havw died if that crazy visa run driver crashed.

What about all the news stories of bus crashes in Thailand. Don't you think this causes some people to fly???? Don't you think people can mentally picture the carnage when to vehicle collide at 100 kmph?

You mention the UK. Here's one story I remember that must have had an effect on people's choice of mode of transport for long distances in Thailand. I believe these mothers created a website - I just couldn't find it.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/sep/16/thailand-mothers-memory-sons

No need for graphic pictures. The news stories and road statistics in Thailand speak for themself.

You mention EDUCATION. Here's some education for you. Thailand is a 3rd World Country with poor safety standards, poorly maintained vehicles, and where corruption is rife.

Road transport is barely regulated and road laws hardly enforced. No need to see graphic pictures when you know this. It makes the decision NOT to get on the roads here and easy one.

The title of this thread speaks for itself.

"What about all the news stories of bus crashes in Thailand. Don't you think this causes some people to fly???? Don't you think people can mentally picture the carnage when to vehicle collide at 100 kmph?"

And there are no collisions/deaths on the roads to and from the airport huh?

When your number is up..it's up..end of, IMO

Also, pedantic maybe, but LOS is not a 3rd world country...

Yes, of course there are accidents to and from the airport, however a 1 hour journey, compared to a 12 hour journey, is considerably less risk.

If your number is up..that's it..its up....you can get yourself killed just crossing the road...wrong place at the wrong time is all it takes..