pedro01 Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Hi All Just over a week ago I took delivery of a new BMW 320i sport. After 2 days, the coolant alert came on, we called BMW and they said it could be down to an air bubble when it was first filled, to top it up and call them if it happened again. Well - a couple of days later it happened again and they towed the car away and came back declaring it fixed the same day. 2 days later we went down an car park 'off ramp' and the light came on again. The previous 2 times was also when the car was going down a ramp - the angle seemed to be doing it. So they brought a replacement car for us to drive and took ours back. I noticed the new car was a lot smoother in the gear changes, ours was an audible 'clunk' sometimes. We mentioned that to BMW and it turns out that somehow the coolant was leaking to the gearbox and now the car needs a new gearbox. At this point the car was 9 days old. On Friday, I talked to the service guy, he explained a new gearbox would take 20 days to arrive from Germany and that I could keep the loan car in the meantime. I told him that I did not want that same car back. That I don't want to be driving a "fixed" BMW, a broken car that somehow got through their quality inspections. I do not want to be driving a car that has been taken apart and put together again and I certainly don't want to be driving a car that could potentially have other undiscovered issues with the drive train or elsewhere considering it passed inspections in it's state. The service guy said he understood and now we are waiting for them to reply. So - does anyone know what the legal situation is here? Do we have to accept a repaired car or can we reasonably ask for a replacement/refund considering they sold us a faulty vehicle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inzman Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Gotta love that German quality! Buy a Honda . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Briggsy Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Office of the Consumer Protection Board They deal with many cases involving new cars due to the amount of money involved. There are law firms specialising in consumer protection law that can help you too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Office of the Consumer Protection Board They deal with many cases involving new cars due to the amount of money involved. There are law firms specialising in consumer protection law that can help you too. Thanks! Will give them a call - seems they have a hotline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoisyourdaddy Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Office of the Consumer Protection Board They deal with many cases involving new cars due to the amount of money involved. There are law firms specialising in consumer protection law that can help you too. Had a similar problem with a bike, by law they have to give you a new car. They most certainly would not want to, but mention this office in Thai and you will see how fast they will, In my case it was bike from Mityon and of course they did not want to give new bike, but after mentioning i already called the office(name in Thai) , bike was changed same day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OMGImInPattaya Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Should have bought a Toyota. Maybe the dealer will swap you even for a new Camry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hansnl Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 BMW & Mercedes still have the name of being good quality cars. My son is in the car branch, he begs to differ this opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mallyrd Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I consider my almost 20 year old 220E Mercedes to be a sound and reliable car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace of Pop Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I hope if it is an auto they didn't tow it with the rear wheels on the ground........... Water in a gearbox, thats a first for me. Except a 60's Mini, forgot..... Sounds bullshit to me,unless its a Transverse Engine, using the same oil.Watercooled Auto Box then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seedy Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Had a similar problem with a bike, by law they have to give you a new car. They most certainly would not want to, but mention this office in Thai and you will see how fast they will, In my case it was bike from Mityon and of course they did not want to give new bike, but after mentioning i already called the office(name in Thai) , bike was changed same day. Would have Loved to have been there for that !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naam Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Gotta love that German quality! Buy a Honda . right you are! it's a well known fact that the gearbox in every German car breaks down after 9 days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsxrnz Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Um, it all seems rather strange. The only way I can see that engine coolant could get into the transmission is if somebody accidentally poured coolant into the transmission oil filler, mistaking it for the coolant reservoir. Otherwise, there's no physical connection between the engine cooling system and the transmission that would allow the coolant to get there. And I know of no design that has engine coolant linked in anyway to the internals of a transmission. If the above scenario is a possibility, I'd be keeping rather quiet about demands from BMW as they may suggest any warranty is void if somebody poured coolant into the transmission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsxrnz Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Um, it all seems rather strange. The only way I can see that engine coolant could get into the transmission is if somebody accidentally poured coolant into the transmission oil filler, mistaking it for the coolant reservoir. Otherwise, there's no physical connection between the engine cooling system and the transmission that would allow the coolant to get there. And I know of no design that has engine coolant linked in anyway to the internals of a transmission. If the above scenario is a possibility, I'd be keeping rather quiet about demands from BMW as they may suggest any warranty is void if somebody poured coolant into the transmission. Head gasket blow on BL transverse engines dumps water into the trans. Been there..... So if that's the case I assume BMW will be replacing the head gasket, but the OP made no mention of that. The OP also made no mention of oil getting into the engine oil and sludging, as would be the case of a blown head gasket. This would be as big an issue re the warranty claim as the buggered transmission. If not bigger, considering potential head warping and internal engine damage from the coolant diluting the engine oil etc. I understand what you're saying Transam - but I still say either the analysis by the BMW service people is potentially incomplete/wrong (as no mention of a blown head gasket was mentioned) and that simply replacing the transmission won't solve the root problem. Or the coolant was accidentally pured down the wrong hole when the OP did the initial top-up of the coolant. Exactly HOW the fluid got into the tranny is the issue. Bolting on a new tranny just doesn't seem to address the full issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BSJ Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I fail to see how coolant from the radiator can find it's way into a manual transmission! An auto can have the ATF contaminated by coolant if there is a leak in the cooling system. I will be interested to know what the heck happened! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Um, it all seems rather strange. The only way I can see that engine coolant could get into the transmission is if somebody accidentally poured coolant into the transmission oil filler, mistaking it for the coolant reservoir. Otherwise, there's no physical connection between the engine cooling system and the transmission that would allow the coolant to get there. And I know of no design that has engine coolant linked in anyway to the internals of a transmission. If the above scenario is a possibility, I'd be keeping rather quiet about demands from BMW as they may suggest any warranty is void if somebody poured coolant into the transmission. It was really odd to me too. Although the last car I actually repaired myself was an Austin Metro in 1986. First off - the coolant only seemed to really disappear en-masse when exiting a car park with a steep downward off ramp. So this was dependent on the angle of the car. The three times it occurred were on an off ramp waiting for traffic to clear and then the light came on. Also - when they took it away the second time, I checked the driveway after they took it away and there was an amount of fluid on the drive that was white in color and thick in consistency whereas the coolant was blue and watery in consistence. I doubt anyone poured coolant into the transmission as we got it straight from the shop and the issue first occurred in 2 days when no-one had even lifted the bonnet. We stopped at a service station and called BMW - it was the guys at the service station that topped up the coolant and it was obviously going in the right place. Also odd that the gear issue wasn't considered until my wife called on the second day of them having the car for the second time. It was almost an aside that we asked them to check why the gear change had been so clunky (since day 1) relative to the loan car. It wasn't more than an hour before they called us and told us about the gearbox. They found that issue very quickly indeed once we told them the symptoms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Office of the Consumer Protection Board They deal with many cases involving new cars due to the amount of money involved. There are law firms specialising in consumer protection law that can help you too. Thanks! Will give them a call - seems they have a hotline. I mentioned this to them. Called them and told them I didn't think BMW had a choice to make. So now we seem to have gone from "seeing if BMW will give a new car" to "we have to give you a new car and seeing if BMW will back them up" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 I have know idea if the OP's car is front wheel drive. If it is not, then the water thing is something I don't understand. Perhaps he is being fobbed off. Sounds like it. BUT, modern stuff is out of my domain, perhaps there is some sort of trans water cooling, I don't know. BL transverse engines and trans used the same oil, they were one, if a head gasket went then water went into the gearbox and sump. It is rear-wheel drive. They could well be fobbing me off but telling me it needs a new gearbox is hardly an artful fobb-off. All I really know is coolant was leaking and that it now needs a new gearbox. If it's head gasket as someone else mentioned, then the gearbox could be the tip of the iceberg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace of Pop Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 B.M. did offer a bigger Oil Cooler for the 3.Litre Auto Box if you did a lot of Towing, i had one,in essence it was just increased oil and bigger rad, No Water involved. Fear Not its not a Ford,so You wont be told to Cluck Off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gsxrnz Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Confusion reigns. It's a rear wheel drive so the transverse engine/blown head gasket issue seems to be a red herring. I fail to see how any coolant can get into the transmission unless it was poured in there by the blokes at the service station when you topped up. The warning light could easily have been triggered by a bubble/air lock suddenly releasing when on an incline. The fluid wasn't "lost", I think it just triggered the sensor due to perceived reduced levels when the bubble was released. OP - How did the white sludge get on the driveway? Was it physically leaking from somewhere or did the mechanics release a pipe or something to expose this? The white sludge you describe is consistent with an oil/coolant/water mix of some sort, but I'm curious as to how it got on the driveway. Unless there is some weird way that BMW have transmission cooling/fluid lines running through the radiator/cooling system, I just cannot see any physical link that gets coolant into the tranny of a conventional in-line design. It's almost as bizarre as saying coolant leaked into the rear wheel differential. I'd really like to hear what the final outcome is once you get it solved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 Confusion reigns. It's a rear wheel drive so the transverse engine/blown head gasket issue seems to be a red herring. I fail to see how any coolant can get into the transmission unless it was poured in there by the blokes at the service station when you topped up. The warning light could easily have been triggered by a bubble/air lock suddenly releasing when on an incline. The fluid wasn't "lost", I think it just triggered the sensor due to perceived reduced levels when the bubble was released. OP - How did the white sludge get on the driveway? Was it physically leaking from somewhere or did the mechanics release a pipe or something to expose this? The white sludge you describe is consistent with an oil/coolant/water mix of some sort, but I'm curious as to how it got on the driveway. Unless there is some weird way that BMW have transmission cooling/fluid lines running through the radiator/cooling system, I just cannot see any physical link that gets coolant into the tranny of a conventional in-line design. It's almost as bizarre as saying coolant leaked into the rear wheel differential. I'd really like to hear what the final outcome is once you get it solved. The guys @ the service station definitely topped up the coolant as I watched them. Also - each time this occured, the coolant fell way below the "min" level on the top up tank. So the fluid was definitely lost. The sludge on the driveway was just there when they took it away, so I'm not sure exactly where it came from. I'm wondering if there were multiple issues with the car... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kartman Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Maybe somebody drove it through a flood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
namdocmai Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 First i would have bought a Camry but allright you bought the bmw. With problems like this i would call the consumer protection authority straight away, don't make problems with the dealer at all. Or maybe call bmw directly if possible. I think you deserve a new car but will have to wait for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace of Pop Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 I recon its the Engine,you mentioned the gearbox clonk after the water top up,so somethings lost in translation perhaps.. Why do posters bother mentioning another brand, totally irelevant. Never had that with my 100Bht Truck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedro01 Posted February 24, 2014 Author Share Posted February 24, 2014 I recon its the Engine,you mentioned the gearbox clonk after the water top up,so somethings lost in translation perhaps.. Why do posters bother mentioning another brand, totally irelevant. Never had that with my 100Bht Truck. Gearbox clunk was there from the moment we picked it up - I just didn't read much into it till we drove the car they gave us whilst ours was in the shop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong! Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Should have bought a Toyota. Maybe the dealer will swap you even for a new Camry. One assumes, seeing as he paid a lot of money for a BMW, that he doesn't want to drive the dullest car in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whoisyourdaddy Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Had a similar problem with a bike, by law they have to give you a new car. They most certainly would not want to, but mention this office in Thai and you will see how fast they will, In my case it was bike from Mityon and of course they did not want to give new bike, but after mentioning i already called the office(name in Thai) , bike was changed same day. Would have Loved to have been there for that !! Surprisingly enough it was well handled without the looks or back chatter. Had a manager also call me to apologize and provide his personal number should there be any other problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotsira Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 My take on this problem could be that the radiator and transmission oil cooler is integrated in to the same unit. Hence, the leak or mix of engine coolant is caused by a fault internal to the cooling unit, it's the only area that the two fluids are physically near to and another at the front end of the car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JesseFrank Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 Gotta love that German quality! Buy a Honda . right you are! it's a well known fact that the gearbox in every German car breaks down after 9 days Hmm, I wasn't aware of that, I'm better be careful when I buy a German car then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotsira Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 After thinking about this problem further i can certainly say that some BMW's do indeed have a water cooled transmission cooler, as i suspected. They are mounted at the bottom of the radiators,i can only imagine that this is where the problem lies where the water is finding it's way into the gearbox oil. I also found this extract of a conversation in a BMW forum:- RE: E46 2004 320i Auto Gearbox Issues I smell another auto to manual conversion coming up...Sounds like the water cooled transmission cooler got damaged as it sits on the bottom of the radiator. If ATF is getting into the radiator then it is safe to say that water is getting into the transmission, water will kill the transmission and so will lack of ATF. He made a huge and costly mistake by driving the car after the incident, he should have had the car towed...R22k and I will do the auto to manual 6spd conversion for him, will be alot cheaper than the R35k bill he will get for reconditioning the auto box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Litlos Posted February 24, 2014 Share Posted February 24, 2014 As previously mentioned is probably a leak in the transmission oil cooler loop in the radiator. Higher pressure water forcing its way into the transmission oil lines and back into the gearbox oil reservoir. The reason for the water level light coming on on a down slope may be the related to the position of the level sensor making it sensitive to that angle, the water is migrating to the gearbox so there will be less water available in the system, hence an actual low water level. Having seen a few engines with blown head gaskets the oil is almost always milky in colour with the water being mixed in. The fact fluid has blown out of the gearbox indicates some damage to seals. Basically the auto is toast until a full rebuild, though a brand new one is probably a much better option here. Would also need the radiator replaced and the cooler lines replaced or properly flushed. I would definitely try for a complete new car as I have a complete lack of trust of dealership mechanics and not just in Thailand. The dealers get very little money on warranty repairs generally, so will try and cut corners. If no new car then keep a real careful eye on the transmission oil for changes in colour, any milkiness , change in consistency or rough gear changes indicate ongoing problems. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.