Online freelancer, long stay in Thailand

[TheRascal]

I've commented this on the other thread regarding this card but I'm going to do so again. 

 

3 years ago I sold my 50% share in a business I had run for 8 years. Also around the same time before I moved out to Thailand I accepted an offer to develop an online application in exchange for 50% equity in the company. This solution is now working, profitable and requires no input at all from myself. This has put me in a position where for the time being I can have a reasonable lifestyle without working. 

 

I'm about to apply for a tourist visa - the Elite card sounds perfect but for me it's too much of a risk. If it was guaranteed that you got a 5 year visa with no chance of the rules being changed and the visa being revoked in the future then it would be a no brainer, however being able to afford £10k and gambling £10k on something that's already had a shaky history (if accounts on the forum are to be believed) are completely different things. 

[AngThong]

No, at the point where you go on with your working life you stop being a tourist and must go get a non-immigrant visa outside Thailand or convert your tourist visa entry to a non-immigrant one at an immigration office, followed by getting a work permit. It says "employment prohibited" on the visa sticker, if I remember correctly. There may be a "gray area" consisting of simply answering urgent emails or telephone, the sort of stuff you may have to do on holiday upon emergencies. But it surely isn't tapping away on a laptop developing websites or executing transactions on ebay.

 

This is exactly why the immigration is now cracking down. They don't want people working illegally in Thailand.

 

 

If so, the kind of people we're discussing here are more likely than not to simply move on. I guess LoS will eventually figure out whether that's a win or a loss for them. I personally fail to see where "employment" comes into the kind of arrangement discussed here, but I'm no expert on Thai law.

[jspill]

The Thai Elite card doesn't permit one to work, right? It's a solution to stay long term with no questions asked, but not a solution to work online legally. 

[Pattaya46]

I was not referring to retirement visa requirements, but specifically about the "young and rich" category
of under-50's who want to work online, but who have trouble with raising 500k for the Elite card

Who said they have trouble with raising 500k? They have trouble/hesitation to pay it!

I am not concerned, but I can understand them. Why would they *pay* (not just show) 500'000 B for a unsure/risky Elite Card when they can still use Tourist Visa that must cost them 15-20 k/year? You can have money but don't want use it a stupid way. As long as they will have cheaper options, probably very few will use Elite Card.

[BangPaInn]

The Thai Elite card doesn't permit one to work, right? It's a solution to stay long term with no questions asked, but not a solution to work online legally. 

You're absolutely spot on..... Yes, the elite card may allow you to stay for 5 years hassle free, but it's still a gamble!, especially if you're working here illegally.... if you pinned 500000THB on staying here for 5 years, you would want some sort of garantee! ....

I guess the people who brag about earning loads doing freelance/contract work in thailand, throwing away 500000THB on a risk of getting caught or having the visa rules changed wouldn't phase them!

[jpinx]

I've commented this on the other thread regarding this card but I'm going to do so again. 

 

3 years ago I sold my 50% share in a business I had run for 8 years. Also around the same time before I moved out to Thailand I accepted an offer to develop an online application in exchange for 50% equity in the company. This solution is now working, profitable and requires no input at all from myself. This has put me in a position where for the time being I can have a reasonable lifestyle without working. 

 

I'm about to apply for a tourist visa - the Elite card sounds perfect but for me it's too much of a risk. If it was guaranteed that you got a 5 year visa with no chance of the rules being changed and the visa being revoked in the future then it would be a no brainer, however being able to afford £10k and gambling £10k on something that's already had a shaky history (if accounts on the forum are to be believed) are completely different things. 

 

Maybe you were put off by the scaremongers ;)  I see success stories like this one a few days ago.....

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/643383-thailand-elite-card-to-be-relaunched-in-june/page-15#entry8081853

You might think again at the simplicity of getting through immigration easily for the equivalent of about 300Bhat per day compared to the cost in time and hassle, not to mention hard cash, of dodging around with dubious-validity tourist visas.  ;)

[max72]

This is what interest me to.

Lets say you "work", example:

Building websites, Selling online 3D models made in 3D studio, Youtube partner (get paid by Google), Play games and get paid by doing so, Manager of some company who are not required to stay in the office, Sell on eBay (you sell at your home but decided to come to Thailand for 1-2 or more months) ...... and so on and so on.

So by this logic, as soon as you enter Thailand you are in violation of the law, or... ?

 

Can someone explain this to me and anyone who wish to know?

 

Edit:  I found out that you are not allowed to even wash your car or some other stupid "work" so by that logic , are you allowed even to carry bags from 7/11? You have to pay someone to carry for you?

Few years ago I was stopped by two cops outside a shop.

They asked me what i was doing and show them my shop bag and they told me I was violating the law because shopping in Thailand was forbidden for foreigners.

So I told them to go with me and tell the shop owner to return my money in exchange of the stuff I had bought.

At that point, they let me go.

[max72]

The Thai Elite card doesn't permit one to work, right? It's a solution to stay long term with no questions asked, but not a solution to work online legally. 

 

It's extremely unsafe. It could be cancelled any moment. It had happened in the past , with some special elite cards, which were cancelled later.

If you pay 500K and after 1 day the plan is cancelled, that would be your most expensive vacation in your life. 

[Happyman108]

 

And there's still a visa that is call Tourist visa.....so if u step into Thailand with tourist visa, you can still wash your car, carrry a 7/11 bags and go on with you working life to build a website, selling on ebay or whatever work u have (u dun need to resign from work to go on a holiday) as long you have a valid tourist visa.

No, at the point where you go on with your working life you stop being a tourist and must go get a non-immigrant visa outside Thailand or convert your tourist visa entry to a non-immigrant one at an immigration office, followed by getting a work permit. It says "employment prohibited" on the visa sticker, if I remember correctly. There may be a "gray area" consisting of simply answering urgent emails or telephone, the sort of stuff you may have to do on holiday upon emergencies. But it surely isn't tapping away on a laptop developing websites or executing transactions on ebay.

 

This is exactly why the immigration is now cracking down. They don't want people working illegally in Thailand.

 

 

Its say employment prohibited but not working prohibited.....but my last sentence is more import that u may have miss it :

 

"But if someone were to be "tourist" for more than 30 days, he's either very rich or he got the wrong purpose in wrong country."

 

The problem now is more people are getting tourist visa but they are not a tourist, they just want to stay in Thailand and work online paying no tax for their work, or some are working legally without valid work permit. I think the Thai govt is considering these online worker as non performing tax payer as compare to whose on work permit or eductional visa whereby taxes are collected, and a real tourist who stay in hotel do spend quite a bit on food and stay.

 

What's so difficult to get a valid permit to stay & live in Thailand???  

[jpinx]

To allay the scaremongers -- read the thread about the elite card in it's various forms here ...

 

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/643383-thailand-elite-card-to-be-relaunched-in-june/page-15

 

There is specific mention of assistance in getting a work permit here ...

 

http://www.thailandelite.com.122.155.171.22.no-domain.name/newcreate/file_upload/20130910163730_table.jpg

(taken from this page)...

http://www.thailandelite.com/glimpse.php

 

I don't have an elite card myself, so I don't know any more than most, but I do know how to use Google to find other travel forums with further comment, and if I was more interested I would contact thai immigration to find out more.  I suggest that people who don't have one but fall into the "young and rich" category need to do the same, or get their trusted agents to do so for them.

 

 

 

 

[AngThong]

 

What's so difficult to get a valid permit to stay & live in Thailand???  

 

 

There's quite a few situations where you remain a tax resident in your country of origin and cannot easily change that, no matter where you physically spend your time. Since all of the work is provided online, your physical whereabouts are of no importance to your clients - but your tax residency may be of great interest to your country of origin. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still paying taxes back home.

 

It would make sense to move your tax residency to Thailand if it was your intention to settle here. That may not be the case for many who nevertheless spend extended periods of time in Thailand.

Edited July 14, 2014 by AngThong

[blorg]

But if someone were to be "tourist" for mroe than 30 days, he's either very rich or he got the wrong purpose in wrong country.

 

You don't think anyone can be a genuine tourist for more than 30 days? Why on earth does Thailand offer 60 day extendable tourist visas then? You hardly have to be "very rich" to spend 60-90 days on holiday in Thailand.

[Cypress Hill]

I think there might be some confusion.  I was not referring to retirement visa requirements, but specifically about the "young and rich" category of under-50's who want to work online, but who have trouble with raising 500k for the Elite card -- assuming the Elite card actually satisfies their requirements in other ways -- which I have not investigated.

There's no confusion, mate.
 
The point is if 500K should be a cinch for anyone working online, then ALL retirees should be able to find 800k to qualify for a retirement visa without resorting to borrowing it
 
We all know that lots of people wanting retirement visas don't actually HAVE 800k to meet the criteria.
 
 
I'm eagerly awaiting the day when Immigration change the rules to make it so that, in order to qualify for a retirement visa, the 800k MUST be on deposit in a Thai account for SIX  months prior to application for an extension.
 
Let's see how many wheezers are spotted weeping into their happy hour shandy at the prospect of stepping off a plane in the middle of winter back in Farangland.

[JLCrab]

I'm eagerly awaiting the day when Immigration change the rules ... Awaiting from where?

[DrTuner]

 

 

And there's still a visa that is call Tourist visa.....so if u step into Thailand with tourist visa, you can still wash your car, carrry a 7/11 bags and go on with you working life to build a website, selling on ebay or whatever work u have (u dun need to resign from work to go on a holiday) as long you have a valid tourist visa.

No, at the point where you go on with your working life you stop being a tourist and must go get a non-immigrant visa outside Thailand or convert your tourist visa entry to a non-immigrant one at an immigration office, followed by getting a work permit. It says "employment prohibited" on the visa sticker, if I remember correctly. There may be a "gray area" consisting of simply answering urgent emails or telephone, the sort of stuff you may have to do on holiday upon emergencies. But it surely isn't tapping away on a laptop developing websites or executing transactions on ebay.

 

This is exactly why the immigration is now cracking down. They don't want people working illegally in Thailand.

 

 

Its say employment prohibited but not working prohibited.....but my last sentence is more import that u may have miss it :

 

"But if someone were to be "tourist" for more than 30 days, he's either very rich or he got the wrong purpose in wrong country."

 

The problem now is more people are getting tourist visa but they are not a tourist, they just want to stay in Thailand and work online paying no tax for their work, or some are working legally without valid work permit. I think the Thai govt is considering these online worker as non performing tax payer as compare to whose on work permit or eductional visa whereby taxes are collected, and a real tourist who stay in hotel do spend quite a bit on food and stay.

 

What's so difficult to get a valid permit to stay & live in Thailand???  

 

You can actually go to the Revenue Department and pay taxes on income from abroad without having a WP. Do a PND 90 and waltz in: http://www.rd.go.th/publish/49230.0.html

 

But that's Revenue Department. There are four bodies interested in foreigner working in Thailand:

 

 * Ministry of Foreign Affairs: you need to have a visa allowing employment when entering Thailand

 * Immigration: you have to be staying on a permit to stay allowing employment

 * Ministry of Labour: you have to have a work permit for the work you do

 * Revenue Department: you have to pay taxes for the work you do

 

The co-operation between the four seems a bit awkward at times. 

Edited July 14, 2014 by DrTuner

[Pattaya46]

We all know that lots of people wanting retirement visas don't actually HAVE 800k to meet the criteria.

You don't need them anyway. Not a problem.

I'm eagerly awaiting the day when Immigration change the rules to make it so that,
in order to qualify for a retirement visa,
the 800k MUST be on deposit in a Thai account for SIX months prior to application for an extension.

3 months or 6 months, I don't really see the difference. What would that change ?
Many expats I know have a Term Deposit account with 800'000 baht that they never touch.

[jpinx]

 

I think there might be some confusion.  I was not referring to retirement visa requirements, but specifically about the "young and rich" category of under-50's who want to work online, but who have trouble with raising 500k for the Elite card -- assuming the Elite card actually satisfies their requirements in other ways -- which I have not investigated.

There's no confusion, mate.
 
The point is if 500K should be a cinch for anyone working online, then ALL retirees should be able to find 800k to qualify for a retirement visa without resorting to borrowing it
 
We all know that lots of people wanting retirement visas don't actually HAVE 800k to meet the criteria.
 
 
I'm eagerly awaiting the day when Immigration change the rules to make it so that, in order to qualify for a retirement visa, the 800k MUST be on deposit in a Thai account for SIX  months prior to application for an extension.
 
Let's see how many wheezers are spotted weeping into their happy hour shandy at the prospect of stepping off a plane in the middle of winter back in Farangland.

 

 

Maybe not confused, but wandering off the topic of this thread about online freelancers living and working in Thailand.  The elite card does provide assistance in getting a work permit - see my  reference here

 

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/742653-online-freelancer-long-stay-in-thailand/page-2#entry8099193

 

As for the requirements for a retirement visa --  no problem if they change the rules as you state, because genuine retirees can use the income method.

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2014 by jpinx

[DrTuner]

 

 

What's so difficult to get a valid permit to stay & live in Thailand???  

 

 

There's quite a few situations where you remain a tax resident in your country of origin and cannot easily change that, no matter where you physically spend your time. Since all of the work is provided online, your physical whereabouts are of no importance to your clients - but your tax residency may be of great interest to your country of origin. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still paying taxes back home.

 

It would make sense to move your tax residency to Thailand if it was your intention to settle here. That may not be the case for many who nevertheless spend extended periods of time in Thailand.

Depends on the double taxation agreements between your country of origin and Thailand, but generally:

 

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

 

 

 

Taxpayers are classified into “resident” and “non-resident”. “Resident” means any person residing in Thailand for a period or periods aggregating more than 180 days in any tax (calendar) year. A resident of Thailand is liable to pay tax on income from sources in Thailand as well as on the portion of income from foreign sources that is brought into Thailand. A non-resident is, however, subject to tax only on income from sources in Thailand. 

>= 180 days in Thailand within a year makes you a tax resident.

[onthemoon]

Saigon is a hot spot for online workers right now and the visa situation in Vietnam is considerably easier than Thailand.

 

An ED visa will get you permission to stay in Thailand for about 30,000/year (go to the classes and be a legitimate student if you do it, don't be a <deleted> and ruin it for everyone else). It will not give you permission to work and a work permit cannot be obtained on an ED visa. I've never heard of immigration enforcing the work restriction against someone who was working online from their home, not making too much noise about it, and not doing work related to Thai companies or Thai people, however. (Has anybody?)

 

 

In order to obtain a work permit, you need to enter the country on a non-immigrant visa. the law does not specify which class of non-imm visa you have to be on. Yes, you can apply for a work permit on a ED visa. The only exception is a non-imm OA visa (retirement visa).

 

But visa status can also be changed while in-country, I have heard of people entering on a tourist visa and applying for status change so that they could apply for a work permit.

 

You cannot work in Thailand without a work permit, though. The law does not not even care whether you get paid for your work.

[StevenWayneSimpson]

If your good at what you do, why not set up a company and target local market as well. People underestimate how much locals will pay for good work. This way it could create a few opportunities and sort out the visa situation.

[onthemoon]

Think best option is ED visa, and is good to learn Thai since you're staying here.......you actually pay for the education or language and hence apply a valid legal visa for it. Stop the visa run and get the right visa.

 

There must be a purpose we want to live in a country, being married, study, working, retired etc, and most if not all will have a right visa for right purpose. But if someone want to work but apply a study visa, then be risk of getting caught. And for your case of living in Thailand working online, is still consider as working whereby u need a work permit and u can apply for non O visa base on your work permit.......but since u feel that u are not working in Thailand company and should not be getting work permit, then best option is to apply education visa or move on to another country that you can legally work online with work permit. 

 

You cannot apply for a visa based on your work permit.

[AngThong]

If your good at what you do, why not set up a company and target local market as well. People underestimate how much locals will pay for good work. This way it could create a few opportunities and sort out the visa situation.

 

Not a bad idea but its applicability will obviously depend on your trade.

[DrTuner]

If your good at what you do, why not set up a company and target local market as well. People underestimate how much locals will pay for good work. This way it could create a few opportunities and sort out the visa situation.

The hurdles there are:

 

  * Unless you open as a BOI (Board of Investment, http://www.boi.go.th/) or amity company (U.S. citizens only), you can only own 49% of the company. Rest of the company must be owned by Thais.

  * A minimum of 2M baht registered capital

  * For a work permit for a foreigner, a minimum on four Thais working in the company at a registered office

 

It's quite a bit of $$$ to set up just for a one man band and you end up with an office and four Thai employees you don't need. 

[onthemoon]

And there's still a visa that is call Tourist visa.....so if u step into Thailand with tourist visa, you can still wash your car, carrry a 7/11 bags and go on with you working life to build a website, selling on ebay or whatever work u have (u dun need to resign from work to go on a holiday) as long you have a valid tourist visa.

 

But if someone were to be "tourist" for mroe than 30 days, he's either very rich or he got the wrong purpose in wrong country.

 

Well, I wouldn't put the limit at 30 days, but I agree that people who stay in Thailand for a long time (one year to several years) as tourists, are often not tourists but tax evaders. They work here, be it as language teachers or other freelancers, and happily use the streets and other facilities paid for by our tax money. 

 

Parasites.

[onthemoon]

The Thai Elite card doesn't permit one to work, right? It's a solution to stay long term with no questions asked, but not a solution to work online legally. 

 

You are allowed to play golf.

[Happyman108]

Well back to the initial question :
 

"What would your options be for staying long-term (months, years) in Thailand if consecutive tourist visas are out? ED visa?

Cambodia is looking mighty attractive all of a sudden."

 

Guess wil be either a ED visa or moving out of Thailand  

[onthemoon]

 

 

What's so difficult to get a valid permit to stay & live in Thailand???  

 

 

There's quite a few situations where you remain a tax resident in your country of origin and cannot easily change that, no matter where you physically spend your time. Since all of the work is provided online, your physical whereabouts are of no importance to your clients - but your tax residency may be of great interest to your country of origin. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm still paying taxes back home.

 

It would make sense to move your tax residency to Thailand if it was your intention to settle here. That may not be the case for many who nevertheless spend extended periods of time in Thailand.

That's a problem with your country. With my country, if I live more than 180 days per year outside of it, I am a "tax foreigner" and don't pay taxes there.

 

However, if you live and work in Thailand, it really does not matter what your native country's law says (unless there is a double-taxation treaty): You work here so you pay taxes here. That's not difficult to understand, is it?

[jpinx]

 

The Thai Elite card doesn't permit one to work, right? It's a solution to stay long term with no questions asked, but not a solution to work online legally. 

 

You are allowed to play golf.

 

 

Perhaps a scan of the actual conditions of the Elite card would show that they actually assist you to get a work permit, if you need one.

[AngThong]

 

That's a problem with your country. With my country, if I live more than 180 days per year outside of it, I am a "tax foreigner" and don't pay taxes there.

 

However, if you live and work in Thailand, it really does not matter what your native country's law says (unless there is a double-taxation treaty): You work here so you pay taxes here. That's not difficult to understand, is it?

 

 

Makes sense I suppose. Haven't been here that long and have been going back regularly so it hasn't been an issue thus far.

[Soutpeel]

The Thai Elite card doesn't permit one to work, right? It's a solution to stay long term with no questions asked, but not a solution to work online legally. 

 
It's extremely unsafe. It could be cancelled any moment. It had happened in the past , with some special elite cards, which were cancelled later.
If you pay 500K and after 1 day the plan is cancelled, that would be your most expensive vacation in your life. 

So how many people lost their visa's under the other incarnation's of the TE program then ?
As far as remember none did, the visa part of the program was and is still in place

Let's face facts shall we, Thailand will never provide a visa or method for the on liners to stay legally in Thailand in way the vast majority of on liners want it ie a long term "freelance" type set up, as all this would do is provide a loophole for visa abuse, which is exactly what are trying to crack down on currently, further going the route I suspect they want it to be set up would require changes to labour, immigration and business laws not going to happen, you can stamp your little feet as much as you want Edited July 14, 2014 by Soutpeel