Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[scorecard]

9 hours ago, thedemon said:

 

As far as I know, the requirement for reporting by PR's being discussed here has been in place since not too long after the 2nd world war. Nothing to do with the current government.

Please share what you're referring to.

[onthemoon]

15 hours ago, brd said:

it is clear enough THai government is making an inventory of who is a farang living where in Thailand and for what purposes.

Nothing more nothing less.

Once The Thai Authorities will have a clear overview rules will adapt to become appropriate.

All transition periods are painful short times and for better long times.

Real issues are land issues leases to go from 30 to at least 50 years.

Permanency of residences to be extended without headaches.

Each one must respect the laws no short cut no deviations and easier to stick to its.

The Thai government has an inventory of all PR holders. The purpose of the blue (white) Alien Book is that at the time it was introduced, the Thai Government needed to keep track of who left and entered the country, and the stamps in the passport were not reliable: PR holders have foreign passports that will be replaced when full or expired, so that the stamps are not available at next exit. So they made this passport-like book, which then gets stamped at every border passing.

 

Except that it has lost its value. First of all, there are computers now. Second of all, we don't even get a stamp when we use the auto-channel. This is not a transition period, this is an outdated law.

 

And yes, we have to obey the law. But we can also politely suggest to update the law to reflect today's world and get rid of this Alien Book now.

 

Once we are at it, the red (or brownish, rather) book also makes no sense any more. All the data is in the computer now. Much better are the pink ID cards, but I would suggest to make them bilingual (like the Thai ID cards) and also equip them with a chip. I'm not holding my breath though.

[scorecard]

23 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

The Thai government has an inventory of all PR holders. The purpose of the blue (white) Alien Book is that at the time it was introduced, the Thai Government needed to keep track of who left and entered the country, and the stamps in the passport were not reliable: PR holders have foreign passports that will be replaced when full or expired, so that the stamps are not available at next exit. So they made this passport-like book, which then gets stamped at every border passing.

 

Except that it has lost its value. First of all, there are computers now. Second of all, we don't even get a stamp when we use the auto-channel. This is not a transition period, this is an outdated law.

 

And yes, we have to obey the law. But we can also politely suggest to update the law to reflect today's world and get rid of this Alien Book now.

 

Once we are at it, the red (or brownish, rather) book also makes no sense any more. All the data is in the computer now. Much better are the pink ID cards, but I would suggest to make them bilingual (like the Thai ID cards) and also equip them with a chip. I'm not holding my breath though.

And issue a plastic card which is specific to PR holders only, in line with the 5 year / 10 year (not sure what it is) requirement for Thai national ID cards to be reissued to update personal details on the card and in the national database and a current photo. 

 

[thedemon]

14 hours ago, scorecard said:

What reporting?

Reporting to your local police station every 5 years and if you change residence.

[thedemon]

44 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

Once we are at it, the red (or brownish, rather) book also makes no sense any more. All the data is in the computer now. Much better are the pink ID cards, but I would suggest to make them bilingual (like the Thai ID cards) and also equip them with a chip. I'm not holding my breath though.

I can see chipped ID cards eventually being introduced, not for any benefit to the alien but because of the anti money laundering act and revenue collection.

[onthemoon]

43 minutes ago, scorecard said:

And issue a plastic card which is specific to PR holders only, in line with the 5 year / 10 year (not sure what it is) requirement for Thai national ID cards to be reissued to update personal details on the card and in the national database and a current photo. 

 

Agreed.

[onthemoon]

21 minutes ago, thedemon said:

I can see chipped ID cards eventually being introduced, not for any benefit to the alien but because of the anti money laundering act and revenue collection.

That would be another reason for the government to do it.

[scorecard]

22 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

That would be another reason for the government to do it.

Revenue collection yes, because this country is awash with folks who should pay personal income tax but don't.  

[Arkady]

Definitely the system of documenting PRs is archaic and most of it (probably including the printing of the alien books, as far as I am aware, dates back to the original 1927 Immigration Act or not long after.  What is clearly needed is a new Immigration Act.  The current one dates back to 1979 when PR was relatively easy to obtain and many of the types of visa issued today had yet to be invented.  The current act probably had a lot of clauses simply cut and pasted from earlier acts that were already obsolete at the time, in the typical lazy manner of Thai law drafters.  Some further amendments to the Civil Registration Act are also needed to issue smart ID cards to PRs which would facilitate the abolition of the residence and alien books which are no longer of any use to authorities or PRs.

 

However, I have never seen any suggestion from officials or politicians that the PR system needs changing or that the Immigration Act needs reform.  I think the status quo suits officials very well.  They like an Immigration Act that is out of date but that they can continuously amend without parliamentary approval with police orders or ministerial regulations.  A whole new act of parliament might well contain some measures added by politicians they didn't like and would then be unable to amend easily.  The system of documentation creates many "sabai" and pensionable jobs with full civil service healthcare for family members for lazy people.  The sections at CW that issue books for PRs and do the annual endorsements are obviously highly sought after positions because they all seem to be Snr Pol Sgt Majs. No need to deal with queues of sweaty, angry foreigners all day like the other CW officers.  In police stations in Bangkok there is an alien registration officer who in most cases has only a few minutes work a day to perform on average.    

 

 

[scorecard]

On 8/24/2019 at 7:09 PM, scorecard said:

Permanency of residences to be extended without headaches. ? ?

@brd    please share what you mean by this line.

[Arkady]

35 minutes ago, scorecard said:

@brd    please share what you mean by this line.

It's pretty clear that brd is unfamiliar with the PR system but wanted to chime in anyway.

[scorecard]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

It's pretty clear that brd is unfamiliar with the PR system but wanted to chime in anyway.

My suspicions also.

[onthemoon]

10 hours ago, Arkady said:

Definitely the system of documenting PRs is archaic and most of it (probably including the printing of the alien books, as far as I am aware, dates back to the original 1927 Immigration Act or not long after.  What is clearly needed is a new Immigration Act.  The current one dates back to 1979 when PR was relatively easy to obtain and many of the types of visa issued today had yet to be invented.  The current act probably had a lot of clauses simply cut and pasted from earlier acts that were already obsolete at the time, in the typical lazy manner of Thai law drafters.  Some further amendments to the Civil Registration Act are also needed to issue smart ID cards to PRs which would facilitate the abolition of the residence and alien books which are no longer of any use to authorities or PRs.

 

Thanks for the background.

 

10 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

However, I have never seen any suggestion from officials or politicians that the PR system needs changing or that the Immigration Act needs reform.  I think the status quo suits officials very well.  They like an Immigration Act that is out of date but that they can continuously amend without parliamentary approval with police orders or ministerial regulations.  A whole new act of parliament might well contain some measures added by politicians they didn't like and would then be unable to amend easily.  The system of documentation creates many "sabai" and pensionable jobs with full civil service healthcare for family members for lazy people.  The sections at CW that issue books for PRs and do the annual endorsements are obviously highly sought after positions because they all seem to be Snr Pol Sgt Majs. No need to deal with queues of sweaty, angry foreigners all day like the other CW officers.  In police stations in Bangkok there is an alien registration officer who in most cases has only a few minutes work a day to perform on average.    

While I agree with what you say about the situation, I see no reason to accept it as a permanent situation. Change is possible, let's work on it rather than giving up before we did anything.

[Arkady]

15 hours ago, onthemoon said:

 

Thanks for the background.

 

While I agree with what you say about the situation, I see no reason to accept it as a permanent situation. Change is possible, let's work on it rather than giving up before we did anything.

 

Change will have to come some day but it will not be to promote the convenience of PRs.  It will be because those defending the iron rice bowls mentioned above get outflanked by someone more powerful in the political structure with different objectives. Ultimately it may be wrapped up as a national security issue to keep better track of PRs by giving them smart ID cards. But unfortunately, PRs are usually unnoticed as there are so few of them and so many Thais have no idea they even exist.  I recall the situation when Immigration introduced multi-entry visas for NON-B holders, in place of the system where you had to estimate how many trips you expected to make in the coming year and buy the appropriate number of re-entry visas or go to Immigration before each trip tobuy them one by one.  I happily fronted up for my first renewal at the Soi Suan Plu office and asked a multi-entry re-entry only to be told that the pu yai had not bothered to issue the order to make multi-entries apply to PRs and they had no idea when or if it would happen.  In fact it took them a year to issue the notice and PRs had to get single entries while non-PRs were smiling with their new multi-entries. 

 

An interesting example of resistance to logical change was the attempt by the Interior Ministry under the Thaksin regime to combine all the staff at the Interior Ministry, Immigration and Special Branch who handle PR and citizenship applications.  It was acknowledged that the system was hugely inefficient with overlapping responsibilities and massive duplication of work in addition to things falling between the cracks.  Ultimately it is the same department at the Interior Ministry that is responsible for the two ministry sections that approve PR and citizenship.  Immigration does the initial screening and final processing of applications for PR and Special Branch does the same for citizenship, while all the important work is done at the ministry out of sight of applicants and the police.  Communication between the ministry and Immigration and Special Branch is poor and applicants often find that an interpretation by Immigration or Special Branch ends up rejected by the ministry.  Eventually the proposal that would obviously have streamlined the two processes immensely had to be shelved due to fierce resistance from Immigration and Special Branch as the officers could not accept that they would have to give up their police ranks and medals for parachuting and stuff by becoming part of the Interior Ministry. Obviously senior police also objected to giving up the departments but the police ranks issue was used as the insurmountable HR obstacle and an excuse to retain an utterly inefficient system for another generation or more.  

[onthemoon]

3 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

Change will have to come some day but it will not be to promote the convenience of PRs.  It will be because those defending the iron rice bowls mentioned above get outflanked by someone more powerful in the political structure with different objectives. Ultimately it may be wrapped up as a national security issue to keep better track of PRs by giving them smart ID cards. But unfortunately, PRs are usually unnoticed as there are so few of them and so many Thais have no idea they even exist.  I recall the situation when Immigration introduced multi-entry visas for NON-B holders, in place of the system where you had to estimate how many trips you expected to make in the coming year and buy the appropriate number of re-entry visas or go to Immigration before each trip tobuy them one by one.  I happily fronted up for my first renewal at the Soi Suan Plu office and asked a multi-entry re-entry only to be told that the pu yai had not bothered to issue the order to make multi-entries apply to PRs and they had no idea when or if it would happen.  In fact it took them a year to issue the notice and PRs had to get single entries while non-PRs were smiling with their new multi-entries. 

[...]

You are describing a situation that was bad and has improved. Good!

 

Don't be so negative, have faith. Things are improving, I was involved in changing another law recently. The country is developing, it takes its time but it is getting better over time. 

[jayboy]

15 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

You are describing a situation that was bad and has improved. Good!

 

Don't be so negative, have faith. Things are improving, I was involved in changing another law recently. The country is developing, it takes its time but it is getting better over time. 

Instead of wallowing in uninformed and fatuous Pollyanna type fantasy, I submit you would find it more instructive to listen carefully to someone who actually understands the history and dynamics of the PR system in Thailand - and drop the impertinent accusation of negativity.

 

 

[Arkady]

1 hour ago, onthemoon said:

You are describing a situation that was bad and has improved. Good!

 

Don't be so negative, have faith. Things are improving, I was involved in changing another law recently. The country is developing, it takes its time but it is getting better over time. 

Yes, try to push for change by all means but be aware of the entrenched vested interests you are up against. The fact that they have only just decided to enforce the ridiculous TM30 rules 40 years after the law was passed is also a good example of the current official mindset. They might even go backwards and start enforcing the rule that PRs have to check into the local police station after spending 72 hours in another district, or whatever that rule was. 

 

At first it is exciting to be a PR but over the years the gloss tarnishes when you get fed up with having to submit photocopies of so many books that no one understands and have relatively few privileges compared to being a PR in most other countries, where one is often effectively a citizen without the right to vote.  Fortunately Thailand provides a way out of this which to apply for citizenship after 5 years of PR. Another 5 years after that you even get the right to vote.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Citizenship is the way to go. Do it as soon as you can, because things don’t tend to get easier over time around here.


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[onthemoon]

17 hours ago, Arkady said:

Yes, try to push for change by all means but be aware of the entrenched vested interests you are up against.

Yes, I know what I'm up against. Been there, done that. ????  (With another Ministry.)

 

17 hours ago, Arkady said:

The fact that they have only just decided to enforce the ridiculous TM30 rules 40 years after the law was passed is also a good example of the current official mindset. They might even go backwards and start enforcing the rule that PRs have to check into the local police station after spending 72 hours in another district, or whatever that rule was. 

When I first came to Thailand, there was a rule that tourists had to make a tax declaration if they stayed in the country for more than 90 days in a calendar year, and even pay taxes on the amount they spent if they stayed more than 180 days. What I am saying about ridiculous rules is that Thailand is a developing country, and all is getting better in the long run. Two steps forward, one step back, that's normal.

 

I love this country and have the best hopes for it in the long run. And I'm willing to help if I can.

 

17 hours ago, Arkady said:

At first it is exciting to be a PR but over the years the gloss tarnishes when you get fed up with having to submit photocopies of so many books that no one understands and have relatively few privileges compared to being a PR in most other countries, where one is often effectively a citizen without the right to vote.  Fortunately Thailand provides a way out of this which to apply for citizenship after 5 years of PR. Another 5 years after that you even get the right to vote.

True, but having PR is still better than depending on the renewal of a non-imm visa, IMHO.

[scorecard]

20 minutes ago, onthemoon said:

Yes, I know what I'm up against. Been there, done that. ????  (With another Ministry.)

 

When I first came to Thailand, there was a rule that tourists had to make a tax declaration if they stayed in the country for more than 90 days in a calendar year, and even pay taxes on the amount they spent if they stayed more than 180 days. What I am saying about ridiculous rules is that Thailand is a developing country, and all is getting better in the long run. Two steps forward, one step back, that's normal.

 

I love this country and have the best hopes for it in the long run. And I'm willing to help if I can.

 

True, but having PR is still better than depending on the renewal of a non-imm visa, IMHO.

Totally agree, further, I have attempted to apply for citizenship a couple of times, and I thought I had all my ducks in a row and with no foreseen problems. It didn't work out like that at all with very slight complications with my work permits, and then older age.

 

So I stay with PR which I got more than 2 decades ago and it serves me very well. If I had an opportunity to comment I would:

 

- Suggest consideration of dropping the WP requirement either on receipt of PR or perhaps after holding PR for say 10 years.

 

- Retain the current restrictions on types of work (I agree with protecting citizens and work opportunities).

 

- A dedicated Thai PR holders ID card as already mentioned a couple of days ago on this thread, with removal of the location / movement restrictions on the back of the card.  

Edited August 28, 2019 by scorecard

[onthemoon]

2 hours ago, scorecard said:

Totally agree, further, I have attempted to apply for citizenship a couple of times, and I thought I had all my ducks in a row and with no foreseen problems. It didn't work out like that at all with very slight complications with my work permits, and then older age.

 

So I stay with PR which I got more than 2 decades ago and it serves me very well. If I had an opportunity to comment I would:

 

- Suggest consideration of dropping the WP requirement either on receipt of PR or perhaps after holding PR for say 10 years.

 

- Retain the current restrictions on types of work (I agree with protecting citizens and work opportunities).

 

- A dedicated Thai PR holders ID card as already mentioned a couple of days ago on this thread, with removal of the location / movement restrictions on the back of the card.  

I agree with your three points. 

[Arkady]

3 hours ago, scorecard said:

Totally agree, further, I have attempted to apply for citizenship a couple of times, and I thought I had all my ducks in a row and with no foreseen problems. It didn't work out like that at all with very slight complications with my work permits, and then older age.

 

So I stay with PR which I got more than 2 decades ago and it serves me very well. If I had an opportunity to comment I would:

 

- Suggest consideration of dropping the WP requirement either on receipt of PR or perhaps after holding PR for say 10 years.

 

- Retain the current restrictions on types of work (I agree with protecting citizens and work opportunities).

 

- A dedicated Thai PR holders ID card as already mentioned a couple of days ago on this thread, with removal of the location / movement restrictions on the back of the card.  

 

Needing a WP is a major grievance of being a PR.  To date they have only made things worse in this respect.  The first Working of Aliens Act which introduced WPs for the first time had a transitional provision that exempted PRs, who were working and already had PR when the law came in, from needing a WP for life, provided that they remained within the same profession.  Obviously that concept is long gone. 

 

Then in 2011 the Labour Ministry, under pressure from Immigration which resented PRs' ability to get around their rules about Thai employees, decided to cancel the exemption from needing any Thai employees that used to be enjoyed by PRs working in small companies.  I questioned this at the Labour Ministry at the time because I was thinking about returning to my own small company situation and a knowledgeable official was decent enough to come out of the back office and talk to me.  He quoted from the preamble to the 2008 Working of Aliens Act the bit about the need to protect employment opportunities for Thai citizens and kindly gave me a copy.  He said he realised that the Labour Ministry had not previously required Thai employees for PRs but that had not been consistent with the need to protect Thai jobs in the law.  When I asked him if he thought PRs, having been given permission to stay for life and may need to earn a living, should be treated differently, he replied that he understood that thinking but that the law did not provide for that.  Finally he offered the consolation that for people with a Thai spouse only 1 million in paid-up capital was required.  I thanked him for that but said I already had 2 million in paid-up capital.  

 

The reality is that the only changes regarding WPs for PRs have been with the intent of treating them exactly the same as everyone else.  So one can hope for special treatment in future and even petition for it like the TM30 objectors but the chances in my opinion are extremely slim.   The good thing is that the problem of WPs eventually goes away when you retire. 

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, onthemoon said:

Yes, I know what I'm up against. Been there, done that. ????  (With another Ministry.)

 

When I first came to Thailand, there was a rule that tourists had to make a tax declaration if they stayed in the country for more than 90 days in a calendar year, and even pay taxes on the amount they spent if they stayed more than 180 days. What I am saying about ridiculous rules is that Thailand is a developing country, and all is getting better in the long run. Two steps forward, one step back, that's normal.

 

I love this country and have the best hopes for it in the long run. And I'm willing to help if I can.

 

True, but having PR is still better than depending on the renewal of a non-imm visa, IMHO.

I was reminded of the tax declaration looking through an old passport that had them in it.  I had a secretary to organise that but it would have been a hassle to do oneself or if a trip had to be made at very short notice. I guess the Finance Ministry worked out that it was not helping them collect enough incremental tax to cover the cost of administering the damned thing. I think the Finance Ministry tends to be more pragmatic than other ministries.

 

Of course having PR is much better than any other type of visa but it is not nearly as good as it ought to be, given the hassle and cost of obtaining it. I hope you and others can persuade the authorities to change things for the better, despite all the vested interests and other obstacles.  Since I have already jumped ship and become a citizen, it is no longer my fight.

[sas_cars]

I was reminded of the tax declaration looking through an old passport that had them in it.  I had a secretary to organise that but it would have been a hassle to do oneself or if a trip had to be made at very short notice. I guess the Finance Ministry worked out that it was not helping them collect enough incremental tax to cover the cost of administering the damned thing. I think the Finance Ministry tends to be more pragmatic than other ministries.
 
Of course having PR is much better than any other type of visa but it is not nearly as good as it ought to be, given the hassle and cost of obtaining it. I hope you and others can persuade the authorities to change things for the better, despite all the vested interests and other obstacles.  Since I have already jumped ship and become a citizen, it is no longer my fight.

I am also a PR and I wholeheartedly agree. There is no benefit in obtaining it other than lifelong visa.

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[scorecard]

37 minutes ago, sas_cars said:

I am also a PR and I wholeheartedly agree. There is no benefit in obtaining it other than lifelong visa.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk
 

Agree but I would describe my PR status a bit different - It gives me the peace of mind that I have a 99.99% guarantee that I will never be separated from my very much loved Thai family because of re-application for annual visas / suddenly more complex if work suddenly stops and WP, therefore visa cancelled, holding  big money in the bank as a requirement to get re-issue of some annual visas,  etc., etc.

 

And the bonus of never having to do 30 day / 90 day reporting, TM30 stuff and etc. 

[sas_cars]

Agree but I would describe my PR status a bit different - It gives me the peace of mind that I have a 99.99% guarantee that I will never be separated from my very much loved Thai family because of re-application for annual visas / suddenly more complex if work suddenly stops and WP, therefore visa cancelled, holding  big money in the bank as a requirement to get re-issue of some annual visas,  etc., etc.
 
And the bonus of never having to do 30 day / 90 day reporting, TM30 stuff and etc. 

Since you have a thai family, you could have gone directly to citizenship and not bothering with PR at all?

I bothered with PR since I don't have a thai family

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[scorecard]

1 hour ago, sas_cars said:

Since you have a thai family, you could have gone directly to citizenship and not bothering with PR at all?

I bothered with PR since I don't have a thai family

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-

Edited August 28, 2019 by scorecard

[THAIJAMES]

5 hours ago, Arkady said:

Then in 2011 the Labour Ministry, under pressure from Immigration which resented PRs' ability to get around their rules about Thai employees, decided to cancel the exemption from needing any Thai employees that used to be enjoyed by PRs working in small companies.  

I have not been asked to show proof of Thai employees for my company since becoming a PR when renewing work permit at the labor dept. in Chiang Mai.  (3 renewals so far)  Is that a requirement in other provinces?

Edited August 28, 2019 by THAIJAMES

[0zz1]

Does anyone know the current point system for PR under Working/Business Category? I found some information here under the marriage category, but it's not relevant to me (married only 3 years and no kids, I understood it's easier to apply under the working/business in my case). 

 

I'm planning to hand in my application in December this year (December because my non-B visa was issued 1st Dec 2010). To my understanding the point system will have the following: 

 

• Age 
• Personal Income / Tax paid for last 3 years
• Education
• Years on the same visa 
• Thai Language

Did I miss something? IF the point system is somewhat similar to what it is under the marriage category some years ago I should score full points with the first 2, but then it gets slowly worse. I got Bachelor degree which was 8/15 pts on the scale I saw earlier, years on the same visa and work permit would be 9 which to my understanding is pretty low and Thai language, well I got some time to improve I can get by in normal conversation as long it's not some dialect, but my reading is very slow and writing close to zero. 

 

I'm wondering if I should apply now or give it another year as I'm currently finishing my masters degree so then I would have couple of extra points for that as well as 1 more year on the visa to make it to 10 and some time to improve my Thai and perhaps even learn to sing the national anthem. 

 

Any and all advice highly appreciated! 

[rimmae2]

On 8/28/2019 at 12:13 PM, scorecard said:

Totally agree, further, I have attempted to apply for citizenship a couple of times, and I thought I had all my ducks in a row and with no foreseen problems. It didn't work out like that at all with very slight complications with my work permits, and then older age.

 

So I stay with PR which I got more than 2 decades ago and it serves me very well. If I had an opportunity to comment I would:

 

- Suggest consideration of dropping the WP requirement either on receipt of PR or perhaps after holding PR for say 10 years.

 

- Retain the current restrictions on types of work (I agree with protecting citizens and work opportunities).

 

- A dedicated Thai PR holders ID card as already mentioned a couple of days ago on this thread, with removal of the location / movement restrictions on the back of the card.  

There is no requirement to hold WP after receipt of PR as stated, unless I am mistaken?