Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

[ubonjoe]

35 minutes ago, marquess said:

Can someone who has recently applied for PR post an up today list of all the current documentary requirements? Thanks! I have read about 15 pages in reverse but have not stumble across a full list; and as the thread is quite old, I am not sure that what applied in 2006 still applies in 2020. Thanks in advance.

From immigration. Permanent Residency Requirements June 2019.pdf

[Neeranam]

Do English teachers still have a reduced salary requirement? Asking for a friend.

[ubonjoe]

6 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do English teachers still have a reduced salary requirement? Asking for a friend.

There is no list for teachers in the above package of requirements. It only mentions business/working.

[Arkady]

49 minutes ago, marquess said:

Can someone who has recently applied for PR post an up today list of all the current documentary requirements? Thanks! I have read about 15 pages in reverse but have not stumble across a full list; and as the thread is quite old, I am not sure that what applied in 2006 still applies in 2020. Thanks in advance.

You are right to seek an updated list as the documents required have changed a lot over the years, always getting more burdensome and the notarisation requirements have changed a lot too. In the late 1990s I was allowed to certify all documents myself and no police record check was needed.  That is far from the case today. 

 

I would strongly suggest you study the list provided by Joe above and then go in person to Immigration at CW to double check everything that is needed and how it has to be notarised, e.g. do your employer's accounts still need to be notarised by the auditor which they found led to problems in cases where the auditor was deceased.

 

For both citizenship and PR applications there also tend to be some small details that are not quite right in the published lists, as officers have decided to do things differently but don't want ask the big shot who signed the memo to revise it.  For example they might ask for a document that is not on the list or not actually need one that is and may be troublesome to get.  They also commonly demand extra copies of documents on the list and can explain many things that are not explained on the website.  Bring along you passport, WP and yellow tabien baan, if you have one, for them to look at.  They might spot a problem that needs to be addressed. Having a wrong tone mark in the Thai spelling of your name can hold up your application.  Don't ask me how I know this.

[Arkady]

11 minutes ago, Neeranam said:

Do English teachers still have a reduced salary requirement? Asking for a friend.

Since there is no category for teachers, they have to apply under the business category and meet the same salary criteria as businessmen. I think few teachers apply for PR for this reason.

[Neeranam]

1 minute ago, Arkady said:

They might spot a problem that needs to be addressed. Having a wrong tone mark in the Thai spelling of your name can hold up your application.  Don't ask me how I know this.

I was asked to provide my parents' names on the yellow house book! I needed a certified, translated, verified copy of my birth certificate and copies of my parents passports. However, this in the citizenship process. 

[Neeranam]

Just now, Arkady said:

Since there is no category for teachers, they have to apply under the business category and meet the same salary criteria as businessmen. I think few teachers apply for PR for this reason.

Ah, maybe I was thinking of the Work Permit.

[marquess]

Thanks for all the information so far, it sounds like a daunting amount of paper work, various trips to the embassy. I think I could write a Kafka novel based on what I have seen so far. 

[jayboy]

1 hour ago, marquess said:

Thanks for all the information so far, it sounds like a daunting amount of paper work, various trips to the embassy. I think I could write a Kafka novel based on what I have seen so far. 

I hesitate - using a horrifying metaphor - to flog a dead horse back to life again, but your comment raises the question of lawyers taking the burden off one's hands.The first point to make is that lawyers are definitely not essential in negotiating the PR obstacle course.I have two friends with PR who managed quite happily without involving lawyers or agents.In both cases they had personal secretaries who did the bulk of assembling/translating documents.However for those with limited time available, inadequate Thai language skills, no office secretary to do the ferreting around, a disinclination to deal personally with Thai bureaucrats (though it cannot be altogether avoided) and a healthy bank account - a decent, well mannered (the latter for the bureaucrats consumption not yours) lawyer/legal firm with immigration expertise might be just the ticket.However some words of warning.A poor lawyer is worse than having no lawyer at all.Secondly a rule of thumb is avoid any individual/firm that specialises in foreigners immigration affairs: they're mostly slightly dodgy.

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, jayboy said:

I hesitate - using a horrifying metaphor - to flog a dead horse back to life again, but your comment raises the question of lawyers taking the burden off one's hands.The first point to make is that lawyers are definitely not essential in negotiating the PR obstacle course.I have two friends with PR who managed quite happily without involving lawyers or agents.In both cases they had personal secretaries who did the bulk of assembling/translating documents.However for those with limited time available, inadequate Thai language skills, no office secretary to do the ferreting around, a disinclination to deal personally with Thai bureaucrats (though it cannot be altogether avoided) and a healthy bank account - a decent, well mannered (the latter for the bureaucrats consumption not yours) lawyer/legal firm with immigration expertise might be just the ticket.However some words of warning.A poor lawyer is worse than having no lawyer at all.Secondly a rule of thumb is avoid any individual/firm that specialises in foreigners immigration affairs: they're mostly slightly dodgy.

I think this is exactly right. If someone has no one to help preparing the documentation, it is worth paying a lawyer or immigration broker with experience in PR. But you need to beware of lawyers and agents inserting themselves too much into the interface between you and Immigration because that gives them the opportunity to ask you for unnecessary bribes which may go into their own pocket.

 

There are cases in this thread where in the days PR was being held up for up to 8 years, people with lawyers were asked for 200,000 baht to be included in a special batch the minister had agreed to sign for paying clients only.  Then a few weeks later a large batch was approved, nearly all of whom did not use lawyers and had not been asked for bribes. The trick is that that the ministry/Immigration see the list that has already been signed and call up the lawyers to ask for bribes, knowing that their clients have already been approved and will be informed in a few weeks time, since the wheels of the bureaucracy grind slowly.  This scam has also been reported vis a vis citizenship applications.  Not much you can do when you find you were conned.  It's like the Nigerian letter scam. You can't report the scam without reporting your own criminal intentions.   Of course the corrupt officials don't dare call up applicants without lawyers themselves.

[scorecard]

1 minute ago, Arkady said:

I think this is exactly right. If someone has no one to help preparing the documentation, it is worth paying a lawyer or immigration broker with experience in PR. But you need to beware of lawyers and agents inserting themselves too much into the interface between you and Immigration because that gives them the opportunity to ask you for unnecessary bribes which may go into their own pocket.

 

There are cases in this thread where in the days PR was being held up for up to 8 years, people with lawyers were asked for 200,000 baht to be included in a special batch the minister had agreed to sign for paying clients only.  Then a few weeks later a large batch was approved, nearly all of whom did not use lawyers and had not been asked for bribes. The trick is that that the ministry/Immigration see the list that has already been signed and call up the lawyers to ask for bribes, knowing that their clients have already been approved and will be informed in a few weeks time, since the wheels of the bureaucracy grind slowly.  This scam has also been reported vis a vis citizenship applications.  Not much you can do when you find you were conned.  It's like the Nigerian letter scam. You can't report the scam without reporting your own criminal intentions.   Of course the corrupt officials don't dare call up applicants without lawyers themselves.

"I think this is exactly right. If someone has no one to help preparing the documentation, it is worth paying a lawyer or immigration broker with experience in PR. But you need to beware of lawyers and agents inserting themselves too much into the interface between you and Immigration because that gives them the opportunity to ask you for unnecessary bribes which may go into their own pocket."

 

I strongly agree with Arkadys' line '....immigration broker with experience in PR.'

 

I do wonder how many brokers/agents have such experience but they do of course exist. I also agree to beware of lawyers, they will tell you they know the law but I would always have doubts whether they had any real experience. 

 

I used a Thai agent and it worked well, I knew him well, he speaks perfect English, plus I was working full time with him and his Thai wife, both petroleum engineers, she also speaks perfect English. We socialized together regularly so we were well acquainted.

 

My application was smooth and It was approved 22+ years back.

 

Not long after I got approval the Thai husband and wife team were both offered big promotions to join a global engineering solutions/incident team and they moved to the US. 

[onthemoon]

12 hours ago, Arkady said:

I think this is exactly right. If someone has no one to help preparing the documentation, it is worth paying a lawyer or immigration broker with experience in PR. But you need to beware of lawyers and agents inserting themselves too much into the interface between you and Immigration because that gives them the opportunity to ask you for unnecessary bribes which may go into their own pocket.

 

There are cases in this thread where in the days PR was being held up for up to 8 years, people with lawyers were asked for 200,000 baht to be included in a special batch the minister had agreed to sign for paying clients only.  Then a few weeks later a large batch was approved, nearly all of whom did not use lawyers and had not been asked for bribes. The trick is that that the ministry/Immigration see the list that has already been signed and call up the lawyers to ask for bribes, knowing that their clients have already been approved and will be informed in a few weeks time, since the wheels of the bureaucracy grind slowly.  This scam has also been reported vis a vis citizenship applications.  Not much you can do when you find you were conned.  It's like the Nigerian letter scam. You can't report the scam without reporting your own criminal intentions.   Of course the corrupt officials don't dare call up applicants without lawyers themselves.

I always think all these so-called bribes actually end up directly in the lawyers' coffers. I am not the only one who did it by himself and did not pay any bribes. 

 

All the lawyer does is ask you to get the documents that are in the list - which is available in English -, as they cannot get them for you. Well, they can get them translated are certified, but you can use a translation service and any messenger.

 

And then they check whether the documents are complete, using the same check-list.  

 

As for those who don't speak Thai: Well, if you want to apply for PR, you must have some connections to Thai people. Be it a wife, a secretary, a good friend. There is only very few communication to be done in person. 

 

The lawyer can do exactly nothing for you. Some said they can save you time going to all these translation and certification offices, and checking with the list whether all documents are complete. This is a secretarial job, why would you hire an expensive lawyer for that, I wonder.

 

And by the way, if I were the officer: Why do you need a lawyer to talk to me, I'd wonder. All information is available in English, the rules are transparent, and yet you think you need a lawyer? If you don't trust the government a bit, explain again why you want to stay here permanently? - This will certainly help your application.

 

The fact is, I found the officers very friendly, patient and helpful.

 

This is just my 2 cents worth. I'll probably be lynched in this forum now.

[marquess]

3 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I always think all these so-called bribes actually end up directly in the lawyers' coffers. I am not the only one who did it by himself and did not pay any bribes. 

 

All the lawyer does is ask you to get the documents that are in the list - which is available in English -, as they cannot get them for you. Well, they can get them translated are certified, but you can use a translation service and any messenger.

 

And then they check whether the documents are complete, using the same check-list.  

 

As for those who don't speak Thai: Well, if you want to apply for PR, you must have some connections to Thai people. Be it a wife, a secretary, a good friend. There is only very few communication to be done in person. 

 

The lawyer can do exactly nothing for you. Some said they can save you time going to all these translation and certification offices, and checking with the list whether all documents are complete. This is a secretarial job, why would you hire an expensive lawyer for that, I wonder.

 

And by the way, if I were the officer: Why do you need a lawyer to talk to me, I'd wonder. All information is available in English, the rules are transparent, and yet you think you need a lawyer? If you don't trust the government a bit, explain again why you want to stay here permanently? - This will certainly help your application.

 

The fact is, I found the officers very friendly, patient and helpful.

 

This is just my 2 cents worth. I'll probably be lynched in this forum now.

After 20 years here the only way I am doing the application is by myself, even if it takes me 6 months to get the documentation ready. Paying 100's of k to people who have done nothing to earn my money is a waste of money.  Thanks Onethemoon, sound advice.

[Dogmatix]

It’s definitely not a lawyer’s job, although some lawyers may do it well. My secretary did a superb job. Before that we asked the lawyer who did our WPs and the first thing out of his mouth was that for PR you have bribe many different people - forget it.

 

Edited September 8, 2020 by Dogmatix

[Michael Hare]

On 9/7/2020 at 12:12 PM, ubonjoe said:

From immigration. Permanent Residency Requirements June 2019.pdf

I just read the list that UbonJoe sent. I applied in 2000 and got my PR in 2003 under the category of having a Thai spouse and child. The requirements have not changed very much, except the documents have to be certified by one’s embassy and translated by the Ministry of Foreign affairs in Thailand. I only bothered the Embassy once with getting a police report and all the translations were down in my home town of Ubon Ratchathani. I did everything myself. The paper work was no problem. But I wouldn’t like to apply now with all these trips to Bangkok, to the Embassy and to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

[SteveB2]

This is what I was given (see attached files)

Permanent Residence Work Eng.pdf Permanent Residence Work Thai.pdf

[Misty]

On 9/7/2020 at 12:39 PM, Arkady said:

You are right to seek an updated list as the documents required have changed a lot over the years, always getting more burdensome and the notarisation requirements have changed a lot too. In the late 1990s I was allowed to certify all documents myself and no police record check was needed.  That is far from the case today. 

 

I would strongly suggest you study the list provided by Joe above and then go in person to Immigration at CW to double check everything that is needed and how it has to be notarised, e.g. do your employer's accounts still need to be notarised by the auditor which they found led to problems in cases where the auditor was deceased.

 

For both citizenship and PR applications there also tend to be some small details that are not quite right in the published lists, as officers have decided to do things differently but don't want ask the big shot who signed the memo to revise it.  For example they might ask for a document that is not on the list or not actually need one that is and may be troublesome to get.  They also commonly demand extra copies of documents on the list and can explain many things that are not explained on the website.  Bring along you passport, WP and yellow tabien baan, if you have one, for them to look at.  They might spot a problem that needs to be addressed. Having a wrong tone mark in the Thai spelling of your name can hold up your application.  Don't ask me how I know this.

Some very helpful advice.  I just discovered that my first name is spelled in Thai differently on my professional licenses than on my work permit.  Have to get that fixed.

 

 

[jayboy]

9 hours ago, onthemoon said:

I'll probably be lynched in this forum now

I won't lynch you because I generally agree what you say.However as I pointed out in my post for those meeting certain criteria, the use of a lawyer can be helpful.Many of the negative comments here relate to the untrustworthiness/expense of lawyers.All I can say here is that one must choose the right firm.To repeat myself a bad or incompetent lawyer is worse than no lawyer at all.In practice the partner level lawyer will not get personally involved but will delegate to a legal assistant who knows his/her way around Immigration.In my case the legal assistant worked closely with my secretary.The partner level lawyer - whom I have known for many years - kept a watchful eye on progress and occasionally intervened to speed matters up.There was never any hint of seeking under the table money.As has often been pointed out PR is something of a walkover if one meets the criteria - it's not mysterious or opaque and only becomes problematic if you don't measure up.You are wrong by the way to imply that using a lawyer works against you - Immigration don't care one way or the other.Immigration will also tell you at an early stage if your application won't succeed

 

Some people with time on their hands just love running around and assembling documents, maybe the same kind of people who just love DIY and just can't comprehend why anybody would get builders in to do the work.That's the way I see it.Obtaining PR was easy for me.I did no work of any kind other than obtaining a foreign police report.If some think I am an idle SOB, I would completely agree.I just sat around and let others do the work.

Edited September 8, 2020 by jayboy

[Neeranam]

3 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

I just read the list that UbonJoe sent. I applied in 2000 and got my PR in 2003 under the category of having a Thai spouse and child. The requirements have not changed very much, except the documents have to be certified by one’s embassy and translated by the Ministry of Foreign affairs in Thailand. I only bothered the Embassy once with getting a police report and all the translations were down in my home town of Ubon Ratchathani. I did everything myself. The paper work was no problem. But I wouldn’t like to apply now with all these trips to Bangkok, to the Embassy and to the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

Do you mean you don't work? 

I know someone who is looking into getting it by investment. Is this still available? 

[Dogmatix]

3 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Do you mean you don't work? 

I know someone who is looking into getting it by investment. Is this still available? 

That category still exists but, as far as I know, it has never provided any benefit over the businesses category. Since you have to be working in your investment, you need to submit all the same documents as someone working in a business he has no shareholding in plus all the documents for your investment. Even if you are an investor in the company you work for and qualify for the investment category, it may be less hassle to apply under the business category.

Edited September 8, 2020 by Dogmatix

[Misty]

On 9/7/2020 at 7:07 PM, Arkady said:

There are cases in this thread where in the days PR was being held up for up to 8 years, people with lawyers were asked for 200,000 baht to be included in a special batch the minister had agreed to sign for paying clients only.

If PR is held up for long periods of time, say 8 years, does the applicant need to remain employed during the entire period until PR is granted? 

[Michael Hare]

14 hours ago, Neeranam said:

Do you mean you don't work? 

I know someone who is looking into getting it by investment. Is this still available? 

I most certainly do work and at the time I was working from 8 am to 5 pm. Getting the documents was straightforward. I live in Ubon Ratchthani and it is fairly easy to get all the required documents signed. I have no idea about PR based on investment. 

[thedemon]

16 minutes ago, Misty said:

If PR is held up for long periods of time, say 8 years, does the applicant need to remain employed during the entire period until PR is granted? 

 

As far as I recall the longest period between application and receiving PR was during 2005/2006 to 2012. So up to 6-7 years waiting.

 

In 2012 when the backlog was cleared and PR issued to those applicants it wasn't required to have maintained a work permit and I know a couple that definitely didn't. But whether that was a special concession due to the long delay or is still the case today, I don't know.

[jayboy]

2 hours ago, thedemon said:

 

As far as I recall the longest period between application and receiving PR was during 2005/2006 to 2012. So up to 6-7 years waiting.

 

In 2012 when the backlog was cleared and PR issued to those applicants it wasn't required to have maintained a work permit and I know a couple that definitely didn't. But whether that was a special concession due to the long delay or is still the case today, I don't know.

I believe the position is that theoretically one should maintain a work permit but that in practice this is not checked -so it should not be a problem.

[marquess]

Does anyone know what the precise tax requirements are? It's been a lean year with the Covid. I know that for citizenship it's 40k per month.

[Arkady]

11 hours ago, jayboy said:

I believe the position is that theoretically one should maintain a work permit but that in practice this is not checked -so it should not be a problem.

No legal requirement remain in employment but you might get rejected, if they found out you were no longer employed when they interview you. After that I don't believe it matters. You keep getting the visa extensions so it's not an issue for that. It's stickier for citizenship as it is more specific in the Nationality Act that you need a profession or occupation.  Even so, once you have been through all the interviews, it is not normally going to matter if you no longer have a WP.  The only real trouble is if your application gets knocked back for re-checking or something. This is quite rare for PR but sometimes happens in individual cases with citizenship, like mine for example. However, under Thaksin both PR and citizenship applications were knocked back en masse, resulting in some people being found to be no longer qualified. That is the one and only time I have heared of that happening.

[Misty]

Does anyone have any tips or information on getting the "Thai clearance police Certificate"? 

 

We're hearing that we'll need to get this certificate now, in order to submit the initial application.  From Joe's list, it looks like in past years this was required only after the PR application had already been accepted.

 

Already been fingerprinted once, but had to send those to the FBI for the US Criminal check.

 

 

 

[Dogmatix]

13 minutes ago, Misty said:

Does anyone have any tips or information on getting the "Thai clearance police Certificate"? 

 

We're hearing that we'll need to get this certificate now, in order to submit the initial application.  From Joe's list, it looks like in past years this was required only after the PR application had already been accepted.

 

Already been fingerprinted once, but had to send those to the FBI for the US Criminal check.

 

 

 

There is an office that does police clearances at National Police HQ opposite Siam Square. It is right next door to the Special Branch office where you apply for citizenship. You enter through the entrance on Henri Dunant Road next to the police nursing college and walk past the display of Special Branch Harley Davidsons up to building 23 or 24, I think, and you will see the office on the ground floor on the left with a sign in English. I have never done but I believe it’s quite straightforward and not expensive.  

[SteveB2]

You will also need a ACPO 'no criminal record' certificate from your own country.

https://www.acro.police.uk/police_certificates.aspx

 

[Alex19]

Hi everyone,

 

I was just wondering, if the PR could simply be sold a similar way to the Elite. How much would you estimate it ?