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Camerata's Guide To The Permanent Residence Process

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8 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think the red book that PR holders get and stamp at the police station is this TM. 15.

 

I don't think the red alien (police) book is the same as the TM15, either. The title on my red alien book's cover is not "ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่" as you can see from the image and there is no TM reference in it that I can find.  The TM15 must be an older version of the TM16/17 that was issued prior to the Immigration Act of 1979.

Screen Shot 2020-06-05 at 20.22.51.png

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  I apologise for my misleading post.  Of course TM15 is not the ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ as it says on the Chumporn Immigration site.  Here are some links from Immigration on TMs 15, 16 and 17 in English. Unfotunately the Thai versions don't provide the same detail.

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_62

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_63

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_64

 

From this it wouid appear that the TM15 is actually for foreigners who immigrated to the Kingdom before the first Immigration Act of 1927. I expect there was some transitional provision to allow foreigner who were already here to get PR more easily.  Application form TM18.

 

TM16 seems to be a regular PR application, as we know it. Application form TM18.

 

TM17 seems to be an application for a replacement book (alien book I presume). Application form TM20.

 

I no longer have one but I don't think there are any markings in the red books show their codes but they could indeed be TM15, 16 and 17. Whether they look different or not like the blue and white books, I don't  know.  I have never heard of anyone filling up a red book.  I think it might be hard to find someoe who had a red book based on having immigrated to the Kingdom prior to 1927 and still doesn't have citizenship to see what their book looks like.

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34 minutes ago, Arkady said:

  I apologise for my misleading post.  Of course TM15 is not the ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ as it says on the Chumporn Immigration site.  Here are some links from Immigration on TMs 15, 16 and 17 in English. Unfotunately the Thai versions don't provide the same detail.

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_62

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_63

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_64

 

From this it wouid appear that the TM15 is actually for foreigners who immigrated to the Kingdom before the first Immigration Act of 1927. I expect there was some transitional provision to allow foreigner who were already here to get PR more easily.  Application form TM18.

 

TM16 seems to be a regular PR application, as we know it. Application form TM18.

 

TM17 seems to be an application for a replacement book (alien book I presume). Application form TM20.

 

I no longer have one but I don't think there are any markings in the red books show their codes but they could indeed be TM15, 16 and 17. Whether they look different or not like the blue and white books, I don't  know.  I have never heard of anyone filling up a red book.  I think it might be hard to find someoe who had a red book based on having immigrated to the Kingdom prior to 1927 and still doesn't have citizenship to see what their book looks like.

TM16 and 17 are documents issued by the Immigration Department and on the front it states that they are a "Certificate of Residence", whereas the red alien (police) book is issued by the local police station and I think is not an Immigration Department document and therefore does not carry a TM number. I think the TM16 is the original blue Certificate of Residence and the TM17 is the replacement that is issued if TM16 is lost or becomes full. I assume that the TM15 is the equivalent of the TM16 that was issued in the past, probably, as you say, going back to 1927.

Screen Shot 2020-06-05 at 21.38.29.png

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Arkady said:

 

If you flip the Chumphon Immigration page into Thai you get this.

ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ (ตม.15)

กรณีเข้ามาอยู่ในราชอาณาจักรก่อน พ.ร.บ.คนเข้าเมืองฯ กำหนด ฉบับละ 19,000 บาท

Alien book (TM15)

In the case the alien arrived in the Kingdom prior to the date specified in the Immigration Act B19,000.

 

This seems to mean that applications for PR were B19,000 before they were increased to what are they today.  My recollection is that the fee was B50,000 in the 1990s but it must have been less than that earlier.

Of course, Chumphon Immigration has nothing to do with PR applications and have no clue.  They are probably just regurgitating something in an old website or document.

If something is confusing in the English version of a Thai government website, you need to drill down to the Thai version to have any hope of understanding it.  Most Thai government officers at that level have a very basic command of written English but none are going to admit that to their boss, if asked to do an English translation.

Anyway, rest assured that a TM15 is a red alien book ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ (ตม.15).  It matters not a fig what date you arrived in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

Around 22 - 23 years ago, I forget the fee to lodge the PR application, I guess a few thousand Baht, on approval I paid the single rate of 50,000Baht to get issued with the dark blue certificate of residence book, plus 2Baht to pay for the book.   

 

Edited by scorecard

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1 hour ago, Arkady said:

 

 

I no longer have one but I don't think there are any markings in the red books show their codes but they could indeed be TM15, 16 and 17. Whether they look different or not like the blue and white books, I don't  know.  I have never heard of anyone filling up a red book.  I think it might be hard to find someoe who had a red book based on having immigrated to the Kingdom prior to 1927 and still doesn't have citizenship to see what their book looks like.

After further reflection I think I better understand your post. The printing of the red alien (police) books could pre-date the current TM numbering system that the Immigration Department uses today and are now designated as TM15. Perhaps before the use of the current TM16 it was the only document issued to resident aliens.  

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Etaoin Shrdlu said:

TM16 and 17 are documents issued by the Immigration Department and on the front it states that they are a "Certificate of Residence", whereas the red alien (police) book is issued by the local police station and I think is not an Immigration Department document and therefore does not carry a TM number. I think the TM16 is the original blue Certificate of Residence and the TM17 is the replacement that is issued if TM16 is lost or becomes full. I assume that the TM15 is the equivalent of the TM16 that was issued in the past, probably, as you say, going back to 1927.

Screen Shot 2020-06-05 at 21.38.29.png

That’s it. TM16 is the blue book and TM17 is the white book. TM15 is presumably archaic and now redundant because anyone entitled to it is long dead, if it was really for those who arrived before the first Immigration Act of 1927.

 

i think the red books may actually pre-date the 1927 Immigration Act. There were large waves of Chinese immigration since the late 19th century when British and German shipping companies started regular coastal steamer services around China and SE Asia. The government must have issued a law requiring Chinese and possibly other nationalities to report to police stations and be issued with a red book. It might not have included Indians, Burmese, Malays who were all British, or Indochinese who were all French because the Europeans, Americans and Japanese were not subject to Siamese laws under the international treaties that were the forerunners of the only surviving one, the US Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations. There was definitely a big triad criminal problem on Thailand and SE Asia and Siamese police needed a handy way to identify and control Chinese living in their precincts. It was probably like getting a Thai driving license without test by presenting a foreign driving license. Just show up at the police station with your Chinese documents and be issued a red book.

 

So, from 1927 I am speculating that Chinese already registered before the Immigration Act came into force could take their red books along to a spanking new Immigration office and be issued with a TM15 book of whatever colour automatically without having to go through the PR application process and prove they had a profession or trade to support themselves with. There was a similar provision in the first Working of Aliens Act in the early 70s which introduced work permits. Those already working and with PR were issued with lifetime WPs, valid as long as they remained in the same profession. It may have been a different colour too. Thailand loves to preserve archaic and redundant provisions which no one fares clean up or it just occur to them they are redundant.

 

if there any really old hands out there with a TM15 certificate of residence, please post a pic of it and let us know what colour it is.

 

Edited by Dogmatix

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1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

That’s it. TM16 is the blue book and TM17 is the white book. TM15 is presumably archaic and now redundant because anyone entitled to it is long dead, if it was really for those who arrived before the first Immigration Act of 1927.

 

i think the red books may actually pre-date the 1927 Immigration Act. There were large waves of Chinese immigration since the late 19th century when British and German shipping companies started regular coastal steamer services around China and SE Asia. The government must have issued a law requiring Chinese and possibly other nationalities to report to police stations and be issued with a red book. It might not have included Indians, Burmese, Malays who were all British, or Indochinese who were all French because the Europeans, Americans and Japanese were not subject to Siamese laws under the international treaties that were the forerunners of the only surviving one, the US Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations. There was definitely a big triad criminal problem on Thailand and SE Asia and Siamese police needed a handy way to identify and control Chinese living in their precincts. It was probably like getting a Thai driving license without test by presenting a foreign driving license. Just show up at the police station with your Chinese documents and be issued a red book.

 

So, from 1927 I am speculating that Chinese already registered before the Immigration Act came into force could take their red books along to a spanking new Immigration office and be issued with a TM15 book of whatever colour automatically without having to go through the PR application process and prove they had a profession or trade to support themselves with. There was a similar provision in the first Working of Aliens Act in the early 70s which introduced work permits. Those already working and with PR were issued with lifetime WPs, valid as long as they remained in the same profession. It may have been a different colour too. Thailand loves to preserve archaic and redundant provisions which no one fares clean up or it just occur to them they are redundant.

 

if there any really old hands out there with a TM15 certificate of residence, please post a pic of it and let us know what colour it is.

 

I'm just wondering about Chinese immigrants who came down from mainland China many many decades ago.

 

I recall reading* something like after a large number of Chinese arrived into Siam the gov't of the day gave them a form of long-term approval to stay and after a couple more generations their children were granted Thai citizenship. Sounds logical. (I've searched but I now can't find it.)

 

I also recall going to the old Imm. office in Soi Suan Plu to get a new certificate of residence book (white cover) because my original dark blue book was full. This would have been round 2544 / 2001.

 

The day I went the ground floor of the Soi Suan Plus office was overrun with perhaps 100 or more (wild guess) old and very old Chinese folks. They were accompanied by much younger family members and a couple of agents. 

 

One of the agents asked me (good English) why I was there above. I explained, she looked at my documents and said 'looks like your well prepared'.

 

Out of curiosity I asked why the large crowd of old / very old Chinese folks. She explained 'they also have PR, it was basically crated for these and similar folks, many got PR 50 or 60 years, they don't qualify for Thai citizenship but their children do'.

 

What documents they were carrying I don't recall. 

 

I wonder if the above sits somewhere in the discussion in this thread? 

 

 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, scorecard said:

Out of curiosity I asked why the large crowd of old / very old Chinese folks. She explained 'they also have PR, it was basically crated for these and similar folks, many got PR 50 or 60 years, they don't qualify for Thai citizenship but their children do'.

In a similar vein, I was crossing into Laos one day in Nong Khai, and an old lady came up with me speaking Thai asking to help fill out her departure card (this was a few years ago!). 
 

Turns out she had a Vietnamese passport! It had absolutely no visas in it, but I should have asked what other permits she had because I suspect she was part of the Vietnamese diaspora who fled the French in the 40s and 50s. 

Edited by samran

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2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

That’s it. TM16 is the blue book and TM17 is the white book. TM15 is presumably archaic and now redundant because anyone entitled to it is long dead, if it was really for those who arrived before the first Immigration Act of 1927.

 

[...]

 

if there any really old hands out there with a TM15 certificate of residence, please post a pic of it and let us know what colour it is.

 

You mean someone on this list who arrived before 1927? 

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47 minutes ago, scorecard said:

[...]

Out of curiosity I asked why the large crowd of old / very old Chinese folks. She explained 'they also have PR, it was basically crated for these and similar folks, many got PR 50 or 60 years, they don't qualify for Thai citizenship but their children do'.

 

What documents they were carrying I don't recall. 

 

I wonder if the above sits somewhere in the discussion in this thread? 

If both parents have PR, their children born in Thailand can get Thai citizenship at birth. I know such an individual. Both parents are European and already had PR when he was born. While that was in the 1950s, I don't think that law has changed. If found these (non-official) websites that seem to confirm it:

https://www.legal.co.th/resources/visa-immigration-law/nationality-law/are-children-born-thailand-automatically-thai-citizens/

https://www.thethailandlife.com/foreign-children-born-thailand

 

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14 hours ago, Arkady said:

  I apologise for my misleading post.  Of course TM15 is not the ใบสำคัญถิ่นที่อยู่ as it says on the Chumporn Immigration site.  Here are some links from Immigration on TMs 15, 16 and 17 in English. Unfotunately the Thai versions don't provide the same detail.

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_62

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_63

https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_64

 

From this it wouid appear that the TM15 is actually for foreigners who immigrated to the Kingdom before the first Immigration Act of 1927. I expect there was some transitional provision to allow foreigner who were already here to get PR more easily.  Application form TM18.

 

TM16 seems to be a regular PR application, as we know it. Application form TM18.

 

TM17 seems to be an application for a replacement book (alien book I presume). Application form TM20.

 

I no longer have one but I don't think there are any markings in the red books show their codes but they could indeed be TM15, 16 and 17. Whether they look different or not like the blue and white books, I don't  know.  I have never heard of anyone filling up a red book.  I think it might be hard to find someoe who had a red book based on having immigrated to the Kingdom prior to 1927 and still doesn't have citizenship to see what their book looks like.

I see that for TM17 they list ใบอนุญาตทำงาน (ถ้ามี). I'm on my second TM17 and I don't recall they wanted to see my work permit when applying for my previous one and it anyways says ถ้ามี. Not sure why they would list the work permit as a document to present when it is not really required to receive a TM17?

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33 minutes ago, tblbkk said:

I see that for TM17 they list ใบอนุญาตทำงาน (ถ้ามี). I'm on my second TM17 and I don't recall they wanted to see my work permit when applying for my previous one and it anyways says ถ้ามี. Not sure why they would list the work permit as a document to present when it is not really required to receive a TM17?


I have done it without WP when not working and wasn’t asked for one. The next time I had one and they seemed happy to look at it. I think they just want to see it, if you are working, but it doesn’t matter. May as well bring it along, if you have one.

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I left the country on Saturday 30th of May. Tried using the Auto gate (as I always do), but was met with staff that said it didn't work. I tried anyway, but they were right. It didn't accept my Norwegian passport. My Autogate approval expires in September. Is this a permanent thing, or a "Corona-related" problem?

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12 hours ago, mortenaa said:

I left the country on Saturday 30th of May. Tried using the Auto gate (as I always do), but was met with staff that said it didn't work. I tried anyway, but they were right. It didn't accept my Norwegian passport. My Autogate approval expires in September. Is this a permanent thing, or a "Corona-related" problem?

No. They upgraded the Autochannel system before the Corona crisis, and the new software works only with Thai passports. They couldn't tell me when we can use it again, but I haven't travelled since early March, so I didn't follow up since then.

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Posted (edited)

Back to today, PR holders, Covid 19 and international travel into and out of Thailand.

 

 

Have any Thailand PR holders recently noticed any new or updated details of documentation (e,g, medical reports, Covid test results, Covid health insurance, fit to fly documents etc.) for PR holders to enter Thailand and/or to depart Thailand?

 

Also about the requirements for quarantine on arrival in Thailand. Whilst Thai citizens are required to do 14 days compulsory quarantine at gov't location or hotel obviously same applies to all other folks.

 

But has there been any suggestion of when 14 days quarantine for Thais will be dropped, and when that happens will PR holders also no longer need to quarantine on arrival.

 

Also, and specific details whether arriving PR holders have to be taken to 'luxury' accommodation or have a choice of gov't venue or basic hotel, and in all scenarios who pays? 

 

On the other hand, does anybody have a specific e. mail address or tel no., to call in Thailand to get some answers to the above? 

 

I use a wheelchair, my family home is in Chiang Mai, I'm hoping, perhaps with some quick discussion with my Thai adult son on arrival in CM, they might allow me to do the 14 days quarantine in my own bedroom at home with son taking care of meals etc. Probably NO, but maybe worth a try. 

 

One more, does any member know what agency to contact in Malaysia to check whether non-Malaysian citizens are allowed to currently do transit in Malaysia (KLIA), example AirAsia,  Australian cities to KL, 1 to 3 hr stopover airside in AirAsia lounge,  then new flight KL to Bkk or Chiang Mai?

 

Please share, any aligned facts/details etc., much appreciated. 

 

Perhaps also valuable for other PR holders.

 

 

Edited by scorecard
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