Norwegian Chiropractor arrested by Pattaya Immigration Police

[NomadJoe]

I wonder just what a qualified chiropractor is qualified to do. I have noticed that chiropractors without borders is not rushing to deal with the Ebola outbreak.

Real doctors consider them witch doctors.

[orosee]

Why do I get the feeling that quite a few "foreign undercover" operatives are posting law & order messages here?

Lice and let live, wasn't that what used to make Thailand so attractive, way way back?

(Edit:That typo is much too charming to correct. You know how it should have spelled.)

Edited August 20, 2014 by orosee

[common sence]

This is a tricky subject, Asia in general had adopted Western standard for law that can at times be shortsighted. This might be an example. There is an old biblical saying "the letter kills yet the spirit gives life" (Semitic thought-form) In mainland China there are amazing practitioners who don't have licences. The idea of licences are a western concept. It seems that he should be judged by his actions. Why don't his happy customers hire him a lawyer and get him the credentials he needs. The bottom line if he is a capable guy with a needed skill set there should be a way to have him stay. I am not advocating lawlessness but once again this Aristotelian thought form that so many country s have swallowed hook line and sinker is really a shame, Asia has for centuries its own concepts of society. What we see now is rigid (Greek =; thesis anti thesis based logical structures) that can be counter productive. In my humble opinion a synthesis is best, a blend of Asia wisdom and western law. Is it not important for him to be judged first and foremost by his actions, his intent and his contribution to his community? What are the goals of the law anyway...to keep people from getting care?

Shalom,

Lawrence

[wilcopops]

This is a tricky subject, Asia in general had adopted Western standard for law that can at times be shortsighted. This might be an example. There is an old biblical saying "the letter kills yet the spirit gives life" (Semitic thought-form) In mainland China there are amazing practitioners who don't have licences. The idea of licences are a western concept. It seems that he should be judged by his actions. Why don't his happy customers hire him a lawyer and get him the credentials he needs. The bottom line if he is a capable guy with a needed skill set there should be a way to have him stay. I am not advocating lawlessness but once again this Aristotelian thought form that so many country s have swallowed hook line and sinker is really a shame, Asia has for centuries its own concepts of society. What we see now is rigid (Greek =; thesis anti thesis based logical structures) that can be counter productive. In my humble opinion a synthesis is best, a blend of Asia wisdom and western law. Is it not important for him to be judged first and foremost by his actions, his intent and his contribution to his community? What are the goals of the law anyway...to keep people from getting care?

Shalom,

Lawrence

This is the kind of nonsense, in the guise of being impartial, that gives credence to all sorts of quackery. It's nothing to do with East or West, it's down to hard-arsed evidence and efficacy .

Edited August 20, 2014 by wilcopops

[transam]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

What is a FALONG ????

It's a tall farang....................Thought everyone knew that .................

[The Deerhunter]

Undercover foreign operative? They are really getting clever now.

If this Vince guy is as good as people say he is he should be able to find a way to sort out this mess he's in now, clear his fines, and come back. If he finds a Thai partner who is is licensed and accredited it wouldn't be too difficult to get a work permit.

Wouldn't the Thai partner have to already have 4 Thai staff members on the payroll before he could hire him, or is that only English teachers?

Edited August 20, 2014 by The Deerhunter

[wilcopops]

I think it is now beyond debate that the current government is determined to clear up the amount of and activities of foreigners (Western or otherwise) in the kingdom. It remains to be seen how heavy handed they become.

[barryofthailand]

Pomthai, on 20 Aug 2014 - 06:26, said:

Hopefully the undercover foreign operative had a work permit.

Undercover foreign operatives work under the Pattaya Police Department and the Chonburi Immigration. All carry I.D. Cards that are signed by the head of the police and this suffices for a work permit.

[sawadee1947]

He is the best chiropractor I have been to in Pattaya, and better than all but ne I have been to in Saudi Arabia and England.

Big loss to the community.

No, you don't need to go so far: There is well known and high recommended English DOCTOR in Chiang Mai: DR. PERRY,

look http://www.rajavejchiangmai.com/

[common sence]

I went to see him yesterday morning and as ever he was exceptionally professional and sorted out a problem that has caused me a great deal of pain. To accuse him of being a criminal and amateur is churlish at the very least - sure he evidently bent the rules but he took his job seriously - he had had over 200 weeks of training in his home country with the diplomas to prove it. It is a real shame that Pattaya will now be deprived of the only decent chiropractor around - now any of us with back problems will have to go to Bangkok - a journey in itself which is likely to give you some! I am 69 years old and have been practicing various extreme sports at high levels for years and have had recourse to a lot of chiropractors and oesteopaths - Vince was undoubtedly one of the best and I was fortnate to find him. Good luck Vince!

All chiropractic is based on theory that has no scientific background, therefore any diagnosis made by this method is liable to be ill-informed. how can these people claim to be "professional" in any meaningful way?

I used to think Chiropractors were wannabe doctors...but then I went to one..he corrected a problem i had for years, one that my AMA approved doctor could not help with despite the AMA approved drugs. Sure there are some bad chiropractors but to say their methods are scientific is just not accurate. Some in the Western medical communities are recognizing the benefit of Chinese medicine..even though it not "scientific" my dear friend Dr. Laura Kragie wrote a book a few years ago, http://www.amazon.com/Rainbow-Bridge-Heaven-Earth-How-ebook/dp/B0081UEYIU Laura is one of the most distinguished "scientific" physicians/researchers in the world!

[chrisinth]

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This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

If the guy is un-qualified (he is a student) he would, IMHO, be a danger to the public especially if administering drugs.

Are you trying to say that there is a shortage of qualified Thais in this line of work? Or is it your experience that they need to be supervised by Westerners?

[Mammon]

with all the other "not quite legal" stuff going on here in the land of scams they decide to pick on this guy, a sign of more things to come I think.

[petercool]

A flame post removed ...

7) You will respect fellow members and post in a civil manner. No personal attacks, hateful or insulting towards other members, (flaming) Stalking of members on either the forum or via PM will not be allowed.

[poweratradio]

Are we here now giving creedence to a medical student as a chiropractor. Get real, this guy is an injury waiting tp happen.

[transam]

My ex UK wife ended up having spine surgery to remove a disc after visiting a similar set up in the UK...........

[Nigeone]

Hopefully the undercover foreign operative had a work permit.

The labor department has made clear that only regular volunteer work requires a work permit. One off or the occasional, non regular volunteer work doesn't not require a WP.

In addition, there are several exemptions to the requirements of the Alien Immigration Act which allow foreigners to work without a WP in Thailand.

From WORKING OF ALIENS ACT, B.E. 2521 (1978)

Section 4. This Act does not apply to performance of specific duty by aliens in the Kingdom in the following capacities:

(1) as members of a diplomatic mission;

(2) as members of a consular mission;

(3) as representatives of member countries and officials of the United Nations and specialized institutions;

(4) as personal servants coming from foreign countries to work regularly for persons in (1) or (2) or (3);(5) as persons who perform duty or mission under an agreement concluded between the Government of Thailand and foreign Governments or international organizations;

(6) as persons who perform duty or mission for the benefit of education, culture, art, sports or other activities as may be prescribed by the Royal Decree;

(7) as persons permitted by the Government of Thailand to enter and perform any duty or mission.

Item 6....slightly off topic..does this mean I dont need a work permit to coach basketball/football etc ??

Coached my national team for many years and would like to coach certainly basketball in Thailand

[petercool]

Two troll posts removed ..

9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

[WitawatWatawit]

I went to see him yesterday morning and as ever he was exceptionally professional and sorted out a problem that has caused me a great deal of pain. To accuse him of being a criminal and amateur is churlish at the very least - sure he evidently bent the rules but he took his job seriously - he had had over 200 weeks of training in his home country with the diplomas to prove it. It is a real shame that Pattaya will now be deprived of the only decent chiropractor around - now any of us with back problems will have to go to Bangkok - a journey in itself which is likely to give you some! I am 69 years old and have been practicing various extreme sports at high levels for years and have had recourse to a lot of chiropractors and oesteopaths - Vince was undoubtedly one of the best and I was fortnate to find him. Good luck Vince!

All chiropractic is based on theory that has no scientific background, therefore any diagnosis made by this method is liable to be ill-informed. how can these people claim to be "professional" in any meaningful way?

Well, that "theory" has had an awfully long gestation period yet the profession still keeps going. I wonder why? We're not all mugs, you know, - we're not all susceptible to hocus pocus - there are a lot of very satisfied customers out there, including myself. I've read the theories put up by anti-chiro doctors and researchers, yet it took 20 doctors to diagnose my problem, but only one chiro. I've read about some patients claiming to have been crippled by chiro treatment, but they seem few and far between - but I've heard nothing to suggest that chiros "bury their mistakes" (google Dr Christopher Duntsch).

[asean]

NIce to see the Pattaya police actually enforcing the law. Normally he would get deported with a 5 year blacklist. But they might add imposter and deception by documentation to that and blacklist him for life. Practising medicine on a student visa is a very serious offence. In any country.

[Lancashireman]

I wonder just what a qualified chiropractor is qualified to do. I have noticed that chiropractors without borders is not rushing to deal with the Ebola outbreak.

Google is your friend. Try it. Google chiropractor, then Ebola and see if you think they go together.

Bet you won't find many eye specialists, plastic surgeons, skin specialists or gynaecology experts rushing to deal with the Ebola outbreak either.

Well said baerboxer. I'm sure quite a few people on here will have misunderstood what a chiroprator/practitioner actually is.

Further, the suggestion that IV drugs were also seized during his arrest is a cause for concern? Chiropractice does not include invasive treatments!

[petercool]

troll post removed

9) You will not post inflammatory messages on the forum, or attempt to disrupt discussions to upset its participants, or trolling. Trolling can be defined as the act of purposefully antagonizing other people on the internet by posting controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

[pgrahmm]

Seems he "worked" with some therapists of a famous soccer team......means nothing and no accreditation to start any type of practice....whether by happenstance he was good or not.....

It's possible with no other competition around he seemed good - a dime a dozen in the west and it takes time to find a good practitioner.....

It's probably one reason he couldn't set up - he wasn't qualified......

Trying to operate an illegal business (fraud) to fund his stay in Thailand - unqualified (fraud) - on a student visa (fraud)......

He couldn't do it in his country either......that's why he tried it on for size here.....

He's probably a "really good guy" in both countries.....

Edited August 20, 2014 by pgrahmm

[arjunadawn]

My fiancé has a Thai medical license. I do not. My fiancé is a graduate of an accredited traditional Chinese medicine school in the USA also, as am I. This masters program is recognized throughout the world, even in Thailand- to a point. In Thailand an MD can practice acupuncture on patients with only 3 month crash course. This! This, is near condoning negligent medicine. MD or not, you cannot learn TCM in 90 days.

There are nearly 400 primary points alone, not counting speciality and extra points, meridians, syndromes, etc, etc. basically, they don't learn most of the points, only cardinal points. She has her own clinic, licensed, etc., but is now told she must take the 3 month course- the one she could teach blindfolded- after they approved her business model and opening. She's reluctantly doing it to remain compliant. It's totally upside down. Her post medical school education was translated and accepted and approved then an inspector came to clinic later... You get it. Thus I think the means here do seem quite Byzantium.

I cannot help her in clinic. I was told in order for me to legally work I'd need to challenge a Thai Chinese medicine board, in Thai, as the first step. Yes, it could be argued that my patients are Thai but I can't clear that hurdle now. So I do not practice anything, period. This chiro had, perhaps, similar choices but choose instead to place his family precariously before the law. I know the rules are screwy but others aren't breaking the law.

[Zeegator]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

"...to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business."

...by putting an un-qualified, unlicenced individual who is in Thailand illegally out of the business of masquerading as a professional chiropractor is what you should have said.

"...there is a strong need for this type of service..."

I would suggest that there is no need whatsoever for this type of service.

[BradinAsia]

This seems counter productive since there is a strong need for this type of service and the people that can do it are very rare in Thailand. Falong could be able to help Thais in many occupations but the work permits are so difficult to get. I do not imagine that any Thai will step in to fill the void created by putting a Chiropractor out of business.

Wow! That's an amazing new twist for TV negativity.

Arresting illegals is counter productive.

[asean]

My fiancé has a Thai medical license. I do not. My fiancé is a graduate of an accredited traditional Chinese medicine school in the USA also, as am I. This masters program is recognized throughout the world, even in Thailand- to a point. In Thailand an MD can practice acupuncture on patients with only 3 month crash course. This! This, is near condoning negligent medicine. MD or not, you cannot learn TCM in 90 days.

There are nearly 400 primary points alone, not counting speciality and extra points, meridians, syndromes, etc, etc. basically, they don't learn most of the points, only cardinal points. She has her own clinic, licensed, etc., but is now told she must take the 3 month course- the one she could teach blindfolded- after they approved her business model and opening. She's reluctantly doing it to remain compliant. It's totally upside down. Her post medical school education was translated and accepted and approved then an inspector came to clinic later... You get it. Thus I think the means here do seem quite Byzantium.

I cannot help her in clinic. I was told in order for me to legally work I'd need to challenge a Thai Chinese medicine board, in Thai, as the first step. Yes, it could be argued that my patients are Thai but I can't clear that hurdle now. So I do not practice anything, period. This chiro had, perhaps, similar choices but choose instead to place his family precariously before the law. I know the rules are screwy but others aren't breaking the law.

Your fiance has a licence to practice medicine in Thailand. If this was issued by the Thai Medical council then i am not sure what the problem is.

[Zeegator]

But how many Thai QUACKS who have paid for sudo fake licences are putting people at risk of perminent damage.

Why don't you tell us if you have that information? If you don't, then why post garbage?

[Evolare]

Why not just setup a business and get a workpermit it's not that hard to get. You can even be excempt from hiring any employees for upp to 3 years. And even after 3 years then you can be excempt and have less than 4 as stated. As long as you pay tax you can continue.

And if he is a certified chiropractor in Norway getting approved for that here don't seem that farfetched I know other farang who practise different forms of medical practise in thailand

Edited August 20, 2014 by Evolare

[asean]

My fiancé has a Thai medical license. I do not. My fiancé is a graduate of an accredited traditional Chinese medicine school in the USA also, as am I. This masters program is recognized throughout the world, even in Thailand- to a point. In Thailand an MD can practice acupuncture on patients with only 3 month crash course. This! This, is near condoning negligent medicine. MD or not, you cannot learn TCM in 90 days.

There are nearly 400 primary points alone, not counting speciality and extra points, meridians, syndromes, etc, etc. basically, they don't learn most of the points, only cardinal points. She has her own clinic, licensed, etc., but is now told she must take the 3 month course- the one she could teach blindfolded- after they approved her business model and opening. She's reluctantly doing it to remain compliant. It's totally upside down. Her post medical school education was translated and accepted and approved then an inspector came to clinic later... You get it. Thus I think the means here do seem quite Byzantium.

I cannot help her in clinic. I was told in order for me to legally work I'd need to challenge a Thai Chinese medicine board, in Thai, as the first step. Yes, it could be argued that my patients are Thai but I can't clear that hurdle now. So I do not practice anything, period. This chiro had, perhaps, similar choices but choose instead to place his family precariously before the law. I know the rules are screwy but others aren't breaking the law.

Your fiance has a licence to practice medicine in Thailand. If this was issued by the Thai Medical council then i am not sure what the problem is.

If she graduated from one of these schools then she should have no problem http://www.tmc.or.th/en_nameofrecognized-Foreign.php

Same would apply for you. Once you sit the council exam in Thai you too can legally practice medicine in Thailand

[fabianfred]

Was there not recently a post commenting on how good the clinic is? Or was for that matter.

He is/ was excellent and is accredited just not in Thailand .

From my understanding to get accredited in Thailand he would have to speak really good Thai and pass a few tests.

It's a real shame because he really was is/was excellent , much better than his competition in north Pattaya

It was probably his Thai competition who wanted to get rid of him..