Aliens, are they leaving?,if so why?

[Konini]

Until the powers that be, move the goal posts overnight & a lot of folk are up sh*t creek without a paddle. This is an uncertainty that will never go away. We are non-immigrants.....

I think this is possibly the main reason people are moving away. It's the uncertainty, and for a lot of people that can be unsettling - especially when it's so easy to live in Malaysia or Indonesia or Cambodia or pretty much anywhere else in ASEAN. Until recently, we were too young to apply for the retirement visa, and the way they kept on changing the rules or saying they were going to change them becomes very tiring. Last year I was at a point where I was ready to call it a day - I love Chiang Mai, I like living in South East Asia, but it's too hot and humid. Up here the climate is much more pleasant, it's not too hard to arrange to be out of the country mid April to mid May when it's stinking hot, and the people on the whole are extremely warm and friendly.

We really want to stay here until we die, which hopefully is a lot of years away, but I just got so sick of the goalposts being moved I'd had enough. If it wasn't for our reaching the magical age last year and then finding the perfect place to live earlier this year, I really think that we would have just upped and offed to another country that, at least on the surface, seemed more inviting and welcoming.

[Konini]

I think you will find the owners are selling the foreigner share at inflated prices, and not bothering much with the Thai share.

I doubt they have even fitted out the unsold apts.

A game that's fairly common in CM.

I would agree that it's a common game here, but Rimping is 20 years old; the units that they were selling have been long since sold, and I believe that all of the ones they kept for themselves have been fitted out. I don't know how long since they were renovated, we looked at a 2 bedroom unit which looked positively 1980's, but as the owner's daughter lived in unit we rented, the fit out is top quality, although we have decided to put some money into it ourselves to get it exactly the way we want it as after a 6 month trial run, we have decided that we are here for the long run. Many will say we are wasting money making improvements on a unit we don't own, but it's not financially viable for us to buy. We're actually better off leaving the money invested in Australia, the return of which more than covers the rent. Besides, I doubt perfect 160 square metre units facing north (away from the traffic and the sun) come up for sale very often. We really have found the perfect place for ourselves.

I stand to be corrected, but I believe that more of the sold units are owned by Bangkokians rather than foreigners, and of the foreign-owned ones, more Chinese than farang are owners.

[BuaBS]

Could it be that they are going away because 3 to 4 months a year they can't breathe ?

Maybe they're heading home to get beter treatment for their long cancer.

I sure as hell am not looking forward to the smoke and smog starting somewhere in december !

[Beetlejuice]

The grand exodus of farangs is on the increase all over Thailand in general.

This is mainly due to the ceasing of visa runs and stricter procedures requirements regarding the employment of farang teachers here.

Expect to see a lot less entering Thailand and many more leaving the country in the foreseeable future.

[northernjohn]

I think you have to consider that there is also some movement within the country. I know of a couple of farang families near me that simply decided that they preferred living near the beach and moved down south.

Certainly a possibility. I know every once in a while the thought of a beach crosses my mind.

But the number of people at immigration seems to be growing.

[doggie888888]

Maybe people are fed up with be treated like second class citizens and are moving to countries that want their economic input. Or its becoming to expensive and regulated , and of course all the visa crackdowns and nominee company crackdowns may be forcing people out, Thailand is still a great place but its losing its advantages one step at a time.

Please allow me to correct a common misconception: You are not a citizen, second class or other class. In fact, I bet the majority of us aliens have a stamp in our passports that says Non Immigrant.

So, if someone is leaving because he wants to be treated as a citizen even though he is a non immigrant... Hardly the fault of the Thai government or its people, is it?

[puukao]

Life is short and the world is big. I think we all get to a point where the headaches mean it's time to move on. I have heard this from many expats, and the benefits cease to be as great as before. However, this could be short-term. Give it 5-10 years and new expats will come in, the old ones will miss CM, and life will go on.....

[northernjohn]

Until the powers that be, move the goal posts overnight & a lot of folk are up sh*t creek without a paddle. This is an uncertainty that will never go away. We are non-immigrants.....

I think this is possibly the main reason people are moving away. It's the uncertainty, and for a lot of people that can be unsettling - especially when it's so easy to live in Malaysia or Indonesia or Cambodia or pretty much anywhere else in ASEAN. Until recently, we were too young to apply for the retirement visa, and the way they kept on changing the rules or saying they were going to change them becomes very tiring. Last year I was at a point where I was ready to call it a day - I love Chiang Mai, I like living in South East Asia, but it's too hot and humid. Up here the climate is much more pleasant, it's not too hard to arrange to be out of the country mid April to mid May when it's stinking hot, and the people on the whole are extremely warm and friendly.

We really want to stay here until we die, which hopefully is a lot of years away, but I just got so sick of the goalposts being moved I'd had enough. If it wasn't for our reaching the magical age last year and then finding the perfect place to live earlier this year, I really think that we would have just upped and offed to another country that, at least on the surface, seemed more inviting and welcoming.

I liked your on the surface comment. I was recently informed that Cambodia is starting to tighten up on their visa rules. Will be interesting to see what happens when the Asan kicks in. As for Malaysia I believe you have to have a whole lot more money to retire there. Been a while since I looked at that. But I believe it was expensive. Besides to hot there.

Best not to make a move until all the countries are together. Might amount to jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Besides I believe both Malaysia and Cambodia have had demonstrations lately all is not well with them. The last time we were in Malaysia the lawyers were talking about making some Muslim laws apply to the whole country. The one at that time was a couple who were not Muslim would still be illegal for them to walk down the street and hold hands. Don't know how that went but it is an indication that there is possibilities for social changes that non Muslims may not like.

[beau thai]

The grand exodus of farangs is on the increase all over Thailand in general.

This is mainly due to the ceasing of visa runs and stricter procedures requirements regarding the employment of farang teachers here.

Expect to see a lot less entering Thailand and many more leaving the country in the foreseeable future.

Be interested in an real evidence of this (facts, numbers) because if its gut instinct, mine is that this high season will be busier with incomers than the last now that we have a stable government cracking down on corruption etc.

[Torrens54]

Around the KOOLPUNT 5,6 and 7 area, there has been an increase in the number of available properties over the past few months.

The Missionaries near the entrance to Koolpunt 5 are moving, although I think they are simply relocating elsewhere in CNX. I overheard a guy with an American accent talking to a couple of Thais in a coffee shop a few months back about wanting to "move his flock" in August to new premises, so not only will the "Commercial" area be vacant but also a number of homes that were occupied by the "flock."

Aside from that, I know quite a few Older Ferang are less than impressed with the new Government ditching the Health Care Project that was introduced only last year. This will leave many FERANG High and Dry when they become sick as they can't afford the massive premiums demanded by Insurance companies. Yes, there are more and more empty houses around and I don't think they'll be rented any time soon.

[spidermike007]

Vacancies are a beautiful thing, for all parties concerned, except the owners. It helps correct the market, it deflates arrogance, helps to reduce inflation, makes owners a lot friendlier, and more flexible, and it is a vital aspect of a market economy. The junta is of course not taking into account the effect their policies are having on the economy. Perhaps that is a good thing, as it allows them to operate with objectivity. Perhaps.

[Torrens54]

Maybe people are fed up with be treated like second class citizens and are moving to countries that want their economic input. Or its becoming to expensive and regulated , and of course all the visa crackdowns and nominee company crackdowns may be forcing people out, Thailand is still a great place but its losing its advantages one step at a time.

I think this is at least part of the reason.

I couldn't agree more. We "second class citizens" spend an awful lot of money here, we buy cars, condos "fund" houses contribute to all manner of shops and other businesses but if we should dare complain about anything, we are quickly told we should go elsewhere.

Maybe people are taking that advice and indeed, going elsewhere, to places where their Economic Input will be appreciated.

[Beetlejuice]

The grand exodus of farangs is on the increase all over Thailand in general.

This is mainly due to the ceasing of visa runs and stricter procedures requirements regarding the employment of farang teachers here.

Expect to see a lot less entering Thailand and many more leaving the country in the foreseeable future.

Be interested in an real evidence of this (facts, numbers) because if its gut instinct, mine is that this high season will be busier with incomers than the last now that we have a stable government cracking down on corruption etc.

This has nothing to do with tourism and genuine tourists that will not be affected, as I very much doubt that holiday makers would be living in rented accommodation for the long term unless they are the forever tourists otherwise known as the visa hoppers that the new enforcements are affecting.

[heybruce]

Expect a stampede for the exits if the CityNews story is true: http://chiangmaicitynews.com/news.php?id=4387

Once they eliminate the beer girls and late night places the only people who won't head to Cambodia will be the missionaries. Good news for the missionaries, they should be able to get some good deals on condos.

(For the humor deprived, this is a joke. Sort of.)

[Tokay]

We had a lot of units in our condo empty almost overnight.

[Tokay]

Maybe people are fed up with be treated like second class citizens and are moving to countries that want their economic input. Or its becoming to expensive and regulated , and of course all the visa crackdowns and nominee company crackdowns may be forcing people out, Thailand is still a great place but its losing its advantages one step at a time.

Please allow me to correct a common misconception: You are not a citizen, second class or other class. In fact, I bet the majority of us aliens have a stamp in our passports that says Non Immigrant.

So, if someone is leaving because he wants to be treated as a citizen even though he is a non immigrant... Hardly the fault of the Thai government or its people, is it?

I suppose some are asking too much when wanting to be treated as a human being?

It's not a privilege to be here, or anywhere for that matter. It should be a right. Borders are imaginary lines created by greedy men , that's it. You can't see borders from space and they don't exist within the universe.

To be honest, it's little sad so many of you think so little of yourself that you blindly accept such things.

[Dante99]

Maybe people are fed up with be treated like second class citizens and are moving to countries that want their economic input. Or its becoming to expensive and regulated , and of course all the visa crackdowns and nominee company crackdowns may be forcing people out, Thailand is still a great place but its losing its advantages one step at a time.

Please allow me to correct a common misconception: You are not a citizen, second class or other class. In fact, I bet the majority of us aliens have a stamp in our passports that says Non Immigrant.

So, if someone is leaving because he wants to be treated as a citizen even though he is a non immigrant... Hardly the fault of the Thai government or its people, is it?

I suppose some are asking too much when wanting to be treated as a human being?

It's not a privilege to be here, or anywhere for that matter. It should be a right. Borders are imaginary lines created by greedy men, that's it. You can't see borders from space and they don't exist within the universe.

To be honest, it's little sad so many of you think so little of yourself that you blindly accept such things.

Oh, lolo land sounds wonderful. How can we get our visas?

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[evenstevens]

y/day received my daily report of dd property

it highlighted a interesting article in which a influential world wide publication, live and invest overseas,rate c/mai number 4 spot in the world to retire,behind the following

georgetown ,maylasia

cuena, ecuador

and algarve,portugal, takes pole position

from a maermite laymans view,our district, in particular the last 2 to 3 yrs has expanded in large numbers,of farungs living here

so politely to all ,the outer districts( some whackers call the boonies)may be taking up the disappearing slack of the inner city referred to the opening post,and subsquently later posts??

all have a nice morning

[doggie888888]

Maybe people are fed up with be treated like second class citizens and are moving to countries that want their economic input. Or its becoming to expensive and regulated , and of course all the visa crackdowns and nominee company crackdowns may be forcing people out, Thailand is still a great place but its losing its advantages one step at a time.

Please allow me to correct a common misconception: You are not a citizen, second class or other class. In fact, I bet the majority of us aliens have a stamp in our passports that says Non Immigrant.

So, if someone is leaving because he wants to be treated as a citizen even though he is a non immigrant... Hardly the fault of the Thai government or its people, is it?

I suppose some are asking too much when wanting to be treated as a human being?

It's not a privilege to be here, or anywhere for that matter. It should be a right. Borders are imaginary lines created by greedy men, that's it. You can't see borders from space and they don't exist within the universe.

To be honest, it's little sad so many of you think so little of yourself that you blindly accept such things.

Actually, I have never been treated as less than a human being here in Thailand. Have you?

I also happen to think it is a privilege for me (a non citizen) to be here, not a right. And if you feel it is your right to be here even though you are not a citizen, well then there is where we part company...it's a difference of opinon on which I can only agree to disagree, with all due respect to your point of view.

[slipperx]

Maybe people are fed up with be treated like second class citizens and are moving to countries that want their economic input. Or its becoming to expensive and regulated , and of course all the visa crackdowns and nominee company crackdowns may be forcing people out, Thailand is still a great place but its losing its advantages one step at a time.

Please allow me to correct a common misconception: You are not a citizen, second class or other class. In fact, I bet the majority of us aliens have a stamp in our passports that says Non Immigrant.

So, if someone is leaving because he wants to be treated as a citizen even though he is a non immigrant... Hardly the fault of the Thai government or its people, is it?

Agreed but it would be nice to be able to become a citizen after a certain period of time here, especially for those with Thai children, without it taking years and so many obstacles.

The lack of security of tenure and stay is quite a pressure on top of the normal stresses of family life.

[cloudhopper]

Actually, I have never been treated as less than a human being here in Thailand. Have you?

I also happen to think it is a privilege for me (a non citizen) to be here, not a right. And if you feel it is your right to be here even though you are not a citizen, well then there is where we part company...it's a difference of opinon on which I can only agree to disagree, with all due respect to your point of view.

It's certainly easy to perceive, correctly or not, being treated as less than equally human here, whether it be due to cultural differences, communication difficulties, genuine bigotry and hubris or our own projections of our own beliefs on to the Rorshack test of a strange tableau. It's just an additional stress in life. To paraphrase John Wayne - life's tough but it's tougher when you're an alien. Many of us aliens can cope and even grow in that environment while many, after various lengths of time, can't.

[elektrified]

I have also noticed a large amount of vacancies in our moobaan over the last 2 months. Previously they were snapped up almost as quick as they became available (mostly by missionaries). On my bicycle ride this morning I noticed at least 12 vacancies in the moobaan. That is the highest I have ever seen in the 7 years I've lived in the moobaan. The lady at the moobaan office told us the other day that she noticed a few of the farangs as well as the Burmese families left right around the time the police were coming by and shutting down the Burmese camps where the construction workers had been staying. Some of the farangs living in the low-rent area looked to be setting up some type of a commune. No doubt they were here illegally and got nervous and took off.

I agree that Immigration is not a good indicator since so many people are here illegally and never see the light of an Immigration office.

[MESmith]

I agree that Immigration is not a good indicator since so many people are here illegally and never see the light of an Immigration office.

Also, about a year ago, there was a clampdown on issuing 1 year multi entry non O visas (eg Hull consul, UK). That might be causing more people, myself included to use immigration for extensions. Plus all the visa runners that are making themselves "more legal".

[chiang mai]

I'm afraid I don't buy the argument that people are leaving the center and moving to the outskirts, that will almost certainly be a contributory factor but not a major cause. The reason I say that is because in our travels looking for property, we've seen the same houses reappear time and time again from different agents, many of which are "out a ways". As we've gone out to look at them the first time we've seen the extent of additional farang properties for sale or rent or usually both, the numbers in some areas are quite staggering.

[dotpoom]

Regarding people leaving, we have several friends heading outbound. Two families for better learning opportunities for their children, one fellow tired of the political situation, and in our case, we will move at some point as I have a work opportunity back in the USA. I have noticed a lot of the younger folks that used to hang out around CMU taking TEFL certification or teaching have left the country, likely due to visa concerns. Coffee shops up in that are rarely have a foreigner there now where you would usually run into them all the time.

" one fellow tired of the political situation"

I have lived here 12 years now so seen the Army move in two times. Never affected my lifestyle in any way.

[northernjohn]

Actually, I have never been treated as less than a human being here in Thailand. Have you?

I also happen to think it is a privilege for me (a non citizen) to be here, not a right. And if you feel it is your right to be here even though you are not a citizen, well then there is where we part company...it's a difference of opinon on which I can only agree to disagree, with all due respect to your point of view.

It's certainly easy to perceive, correctly or not, being treated as less than equally human here, whether it be due to cultural differences, communication difficulties, genuine bigotry and hubris or our own projections of our own beliefs on to the Rorshack test of a strange tableau. It's just an additional stress in life. To paraphrase John Wayne - life's tough but it's tougher when you're an alien. Many of us aliens can cope and even grow in that environment while many, after various lengths of time, can't.

Especially here in Thailand where many farongs feel superior because Thai's do things the Thai way and not the way in the country they choose to leave.

[phantomfiddler]

I think that there are two reasons so many farangs are leaving. Firstly, the only government that made us feel welcome was that of Khun Anand Panyarachun about 12 years ago, and unfortunately for only one year. All others continue to treat us as undesirables, and if there was any way to get our money without even allowing us in the country they would seize the opportunity gladly. Secondly, the Tourism Board, for some reason known only to themselves (but probably just to boost tourist numbers and make themselves look good) seem intent on filling the resorts with the bottom of the barrels of Russia, Saudi Arabia, and India, mostly rude and very ignorant persons who have now made this place not the wonderful place it once was. I don,t see any improvement on the horizon, and this "Old Thailand Hand" (according to Bernard Trink) is getting ready for greener pastures.

[EnglishJohn]

Like many here, I stay in Thailand because the country and the general way of life suite my character. It's a beautiful place, the people are very friendly, the food is great and the cost of living is not high. However it's not for everyone and you soon become aware that the Thai authorities don't really want you here : they put up with you because they want your money.

I can totally understand why some people get fed up with it all after a few years and want to try somewhere more 'farang friendly'.

I wouldn't blame the coup though : I am much more at ease now. Maybe those leaving are worried that their own 'activities' will not be tolerated any more ...

[northernjohn]

I have also noticed a large amount of vacancies in our moobaan over the last 2 months. Previously they were snapped up almost as quick as they became available (mostly by missionaries). On my bicycle ride this morning I noticed at least 12 vacancies in the moobaan. That is the highest I have ever seen in the 7 years I've lived in the moobaan. The lady at the moobaan office told us the other day that she noticed a few of the farangs as well as the Burmese families left right around the time the police were coming by and shutting down the Burmese camps where the construction workers had been staying. Some of the farangs living in the low-rent area looked to be setting up some type of a commune. No doubt they were here illegally and got nervous and took off.

I agree that Immigration is not a good indicator since so many people are here illegally and never see the light of an Immigration office.

We are referring to the number of people in the immigration office. It seems to be growing

I went by at 3:30 this afternoon and the lot was full plus a lot of bikes parked next door. Have no idea of how many across the street. Those who never see the light inside of it may be the ones leaving. But apparently they are being replaced with a greater amount.

[evenstevens]

in our travels looking for property, we've seen the same houses reappear time and time again from different agents, many of which are "out a ways". As we've gone out to look at them the first time we've seen the extent of additional farang properties for sale or rent or usually both, the numbers in some areas are quite staggering.

the very reason that vendors go to the lengths of engaging a number of realtors, that to throw out a good net to catch a buyer,you have to do so .and in all areas of c/mai i might add

nice to see, that in your travels, you are now coming to grips, that c/mai is in over supply mode(buyers market)in all departments

and in addition, the prices that many vendors are asking in these departments are disneyland stuff, or they are not geniune motivated sellers

and a rental investor,future or present, will find the going tough, in fact extremely tough

if the vendor/or landlord is willing to meet the present c/mai market price,there is enuff cash. going around to stitch up a deal,make no mistake about that

the above are J.M.O.... a lovely evening to all