Aliens, are they leaving?,if so why?

[Capt Rob]

I was talking to a long time resident frang and he said he was looking at Malaysia.

john

I live in Penang, Malaysia and planning to move to Chiang Mai next year.

Good to read a lot of rental property is available.

The same applies for where I live now btw, the main reason is that they keep building and building. The amount of money available from Singaporeans, Chinese and people from the Gulf States seems to be endless. The result is that many condo blocks have a very low occupancy, these people buy for investment and don't live here.

Is maybe something like that happening in Chiang Mai as well?

[northernjohn]

Like many here, I stay in Thailand because the country and the general way of life suite my character. It's a beautiful place, the people are very friendly, the food is great and the cost of living is not high. However it's not for everyone and you soon become aware that the Thai authorities don't really want you here : they put up with you because they want your money.

I can totally understand why some people get fed up with it all after a few years and want to try somewhere more 'farang friendly'.

I wouldn't blame the coup though : I am much more at ease now. Maybe those leaving are worried that their own 'activities' will not be tolerated any more ...

Other than immigration not kissing your ass what else is it that makes you feel unwanted here? Double pricing should make you feel wanted. Do The Thai people in your personal life make you feel unwanted? Just what is it that makes you feel so unwanted. Bear in mind that where you come from their was more than likely some who did not make you feel wanted and some you made feel unwanted.

This is not an attack it is an honest attempt to see what makes people feel unwanted. Immigration in many countries can make you feel unwanted. I understand that all though it is not so in my case as I have a valid retirement Visa and do not have to play games to keep it. A simple 90 day report and a pain in the ass yearly extension.

Many long years ago I did a job in Jasper Alberta Canada a national park. I could not understand why the locals had to pay the same high prices as the tourists. I feel the same way here and find that many times I am not charged more than the locals and a simple Thai drivers license also reduces the price to some places. Often I am looked at when going through a check point on a high way and just waved through.

[richard10365]

I am not moving. I like the new government. I like the tighter controls on the media. I'm indifferent about the alcohol changes because I don't drink. All in all, I think it is better after the coup than before the coup. Democratically elected ineffective governments are overrated. To be a politician you should have to get a license to make rules for millions of people instead of getting elected just because you are popular. However, if your popular and have a license to be elected to public office, then that's ok. Many countries would benefit if all their politicians had a license to practice government.

[Suradit69]

Aliens,the offical word the Govt. calls us,Farangs

Same word most countries use for non-citizens. Just be glad there isn't an "illegal" in front of it as in some countries.

Aliens, are they leaving?,if so why?

Maybe they've come to their senses and moved to beautiful Pattaya by the Sea.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Suradit69

[AnotherOneAmerican]

I am not moving. I like the new government. I like the tighter controls on the media. I'm indifferent about the alcohol changes because I don't drink. All in all, I think it is better after the coup than before the coup. Democratically elected ineffective governments are overrated. To be a politician you should have to get a license to make rules for millions of people instead of getting elected just because you are popular. However, if your popular and have a license to be elected to public office, then that's ok. Many countries would benefit if all their politicians had a license to practice government.

License issued by the army?

[VINCENT2012]

in fact i feel more secure since the army took over

you must be the only one

[Robert24]

Anyone has any data that would suggest foreigners are leaving? My subjective view is rather the opposite, still more foreigners moving to Thailand.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Many long years ago I did a job in Jasper Alberta Canada a national park. I could not understand why the locals had to pay the same high prices as the tourists. I feel the same way here and find that many times I am not charged more than the locals and a simple Thai drivers license also reduces the price to some places. Often I am looked at when going through a check point on a high way and just waved through.

Last time I was in Jasper, no park entry fee, only ski lift fees, which were hugely discounted for residents.

Thai highway check points, looking for drugs and illegals, neither demographic have white boys as drivers (or passengers).

[robert888d]

1. The horrendous dangerous driving....car accidents, motor bike accidents, ....it's no pleasure getting around.

2, Even walking is unpleasant....pot holes in the pavements and crossing a road is like dicing with death....I think motor cyclists try to hit a Farang.

3, The high crime rate......the burglaries, the thousands of people on drugs of one sort or another and the large number of supposed 'suicides'.

4. The feeling that you are not really liked by a vast proportion of the people....they pretend to like you for money.

5, The hassle with visas and the not knowing what will happen in the future.

6 The CORRUPTION from the highest to the lowest.

Just a few of numerous reasons why many ALIENS are saying Good bye.

And the feeling that things here are not improving generally but deteriorating,

[toooa]

Maybe people are fed up with be treated like second class citizens and are moving to countries that want their economic input. Or its becoming to expensive and regulated , and of course all the visa crackdowns and nominee company crackdowns may be forcing people out, Thailand is still a great place but its losing its advantages one step at a time.

Please allow me to correct a common misconception: You are not a citizen, second class or other class. In fact, I bet the majority of us aliens have a stamp in our passports that says Non Immigrant.

So, if someone is leaving because he wants to be treated as a citizen even though he is a non immigrant... Hardly the fault of the Thai government or its people, is it?

I suppose some are asking too much when wanting to be treated as a human being?

It's not a privilege to be here, or anywhere for that matter. It should be a right. Borders are imaginary lines created by greedy men and royalty, that's it. You can't see borders from space and they don't exist within the universe.

To be honest, it's little sad so many of you think so little of yourself that you blindly accept such things.

You took the words right out of my keyboard...well said.

[NoshowJones]

Lots of possibilities although I agree, over the past few months I've seen an increase in farang owned property come available, possible reasons:

insecurity resulting from the military government

people with visa problems.

others cashing in on the exchange rate.

I'm sure there are lots of other reasons also.

Is this only happening in Chaing Mai? What about the rest of Thailand? I have read that the Immigration office in CM has upset a few, could this be part of the reason?

[English 1]

Most reasons have been aired already.

Yes, Thailand is now quite expensive and not good value as it used to be.

10 years ago I got 69 Baht to the UK Pound then overnight it sank to 47 meant about a 33% decrease in my buying power!

OK it's now 54 but still not good.

Inflation is now quite high with increases all round.

Also, something which is not new but is still annoying is the Thai mentality of thinking they are Superior having been brainwashed from birth!

Nothing wrong with being proud of their country but it would be nice if they respected us!

Many people leave when they stop looking through rose coloured glasses.

I think had they been colonised by the British they would have a better understanding.

Enjoy

[Don Aleman]

I, too, am considering leaving Thailand, after 10 years as we, here in Pattaya, are the target of every police scam and responsible for every accident even though it is the Thai driver who caused it. Immigration continues their useless 90 day reporting rule, prices are up and we get little respect from Thai citizens/authorities. Malaysia, among others, are offering incentives to come live among them so I would rather be somewhere that I am wanted and not just for what money I have.

[727Sky]

I would say part of the Exodus in that area are all the earthquakes ... We were planning on going to Chang Mai this month but my wife really did not want to go because of the threat of something falling on her head ! However if you check some of the hot spots around the country there really are allot of properties for sale..

[ebean001]

I live in Chiang Mai and I am certainly staying. the thailand stock market is on a rampage. i am up nearly 25% for the year and was down before the coup. The coup has made many of us a large sum of money on the market. I think things may get worse because i am somewhat convinced the tourist are not coming back because of the current war on alcohol. This will reduce the income to Thailand by billions which may mean a recession. I assume everything will become cheaper then. I would like bars to reamin open until 4am or even 24x7. That is a huge attraction to living in Thailand and huge for tourist but --- who knows. I can go out at 5pm instead of 9pm.

Houses seem to be selling in CM. I think many people are coming from BKK.

[amse]

The visa crack downs could be part of it, like Ed visa's and all the border runs. With all the vacancies it keeps the rental prices low, better for us!

[Postmaster]

Don't want to be in Malaysia, don't want to be in Chiang Mai. I do like to be the seaside. Avoid the towel heads and the smoke from the fields at all costs.

[Jean Pierre Jacquot]

Some of the visa and immigration rules are not very welcoming, that's right. But apart of that I have been during the last 30 years almost always been treated with genuine respect from the Thai people. I would say we farang are better treated than Thai treat other Thai people. Now of course with many farang coming here uniquely for economic reasons (cheap) and not trying to understand Thai people but expecting things go the same way like in the U.K. there is an increase in some Thai people being fed up with farang. We have to understand that and it is just natural. But still (and due to the fact Thai still do not like confrontation) we are treated extremely well, at least on the surface. I am sure most immigrants to the West cannot say the same thing.

[Kabula]

Yes, they have been leaving in droves for the last year or two and no surprise.

The country is slowly losing it's luster with visa extension surprises, confusing immigration rules, hospitals doubling their prices, female scams and a general lack of appreciation.

When was the last time you heard, "thank you" for giving anyone a tip here? A thank you is rare now even in the Thai language.

Memories are short as it was foreign tourist money that built Thailand what it is today.

Down the road they will do the same as Mexico and Costa Rica were forced to do and that is spend millions in advertising to get the alien numbers back up, after intentionally driving them out. However, they never did get the numbers back. All they got was run over by cartels and street thugs. Combined with property taxes doubling, ridiculous traffic fines and harassment at every level. There crime numbers have exploded.

It's an aging population and the younger generation can't afford to travel like they once did, nor can most afford to retire now.

The wake up call is near with small businesses and stalls disappearing, empty bars and restaurants and a not so busy airport.

It will not change for the better with a world economy in retreat.

It was fabulous for many decades, and I will cherish the memories.

Today, I'm sad to see a world in chaos, thinking about friends who have already left and all my friends who are being forced out with visa surprises who have built a life here for many years, with no where to go and are unemployable because of age.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Kabula

[stopthegreed]

People are leaving, yes, thats a fact. Because, the Thai people are getting to greedy. They are never satisfied. They want more, and, more, and more.

I lived in Thailand, Bangkok, Chang Mai, and Hua Hin for almost 9 years. It used to be a cheap, enjoyable place to live.

Not any more. !! They dont even say thank you in shops any more, and the ladies who work in the bars hovering around you when you have paid your bill, waiting for a tip, is annoying. And, when you do tip, again, no thank you, they just walk away, as if thats what your suppose to do, and they are entitled to it.

I moved to The Philippines 6 Months ago, and I will never return to Rip off Thailand, I just wish I had moved here years ago.

A couple of long standing friends of mine, to name 2, have also left to go to Vietnam and Cambodia. I used to love Thailand and the people. I am sad to say, that I, for one, will not stay where, A. Im not wanted and B. to be ripped off.

Good luck Thailand, your going to need it.

[The Deerhunter]

I was talking to a long time resident frang and he said he was looking at Malaysia.

john

I live in Penang, Malaysia and planning to move to Chiang Mai next year.

Good to read a lot of rental property is available.

The same applies for where I live now btw, the main reason is that they keep building and building. The amount of money available from Singaporeans, Chinese and people from the Gulf States seems to be endless. The result is that many condo blocks have a very low occupancy, these people buy for investment and don't live here.

Is maybe something like that happening in Chiang Mai as well?

I notice epic amounts of new shop-house blocks going up everywhere I go. Also, ones built a year or two ago are largely still shuttered & apparently not occupied. I am in the property rental business back home & tend to notice these things. Wifey says that a lot of rich Thais just buy shop houses & condos as a long term investment, & leave them empty relying on capital gain in 2 to 5 years to provide the eventual profit. I am told many Thais consider them a good way to hide black money too as long as the property is not in their own name. Personally I think there is an oversupply of rental accommodation (condos, shop-houses & moo-bahns in much of Thailand with people building huge amounts of new housing stock over the last several years. If landlords won't lower the rent,(in a buyers market), some people will just move to a new condo in a new development al lower rent. I would! A business I previously owned back home has just relocated because the landlord simply just raised the rent every year or two with no consideration of comparative rental competition. My ex-employee/new owner is saving over $50,000 a year in rent & insurance and he has a much nicer, newer shop, with lower insurance rates. It is a hell of a lot easier to move a rental home address than a retail business. I would not be keen on building condos or houses at the moment without expert local rental data supporting the decision. There is no reason why Thailand should be immune from the greed-fueled Boom & Bust pattern that is so common overseas..

[Just1Voice]

I have lived in CM for the past 6+ years, and wouldn't think of living anywhere else. I'm on the Outer Ring road, and about equal distance from the City as I am from Doi Saket. Used hate the burning months, but now most of the fields around us have been filled with businesses and new moo bans, so it's not nearly as bad as it was. Granted, there are some things that are not the way they used to be, but this is still home, and always will be unless something drastic happens. As for CM Imm? I've watched it grow steadily busier year by year. Even they have stated they need a bigger office, more parking space and a bigger staff.

[n210mp]

Without any correct and validated statistics from a source who could be relied on we just dont know if the number of Aliens coming into Thailand as temporary immigrants or just plain tourist is either on the increase or the decrease.

There doesn't seem to be any organisations compiling relevant information in Thailand with enough credibility and without a vested interest to give information out that could reasonably be regarded as accurate.

IMO and from what I have seen and witnessed living in the Pattaya area there is a distinct lack of European 30 day tourist punters and possibly those longer stay tourist who would maybe take a month or six month holiday.

The bars in the area are closing down at a steady rate and yes I Know they always did but it was never as bad as it is today, ask John Collinbourne

The reason I am going down this road of debate is because conventionally a massive percentage of those regulars who comes for a holiday will meet the lady or man of his/her dreams and fall into the system of becoming an Alien with some kind of Education Visa or retired marriage extension.

Its simple maths really if you do not get the "numbers" coming through the airport gates then you will after a while notice that there is a distinct shortage of those people who would normally be queuing up to rent or buy a house.

Paradoxically its similar to a door to door salesman selling vacuum cleaners.

If he knocks at 40 houses he may get ten demo's of his product

From ten demo's he may get 5 sales

In other words to get those five sales He had to have knocked at forty houses.

If there are no people coming into Thailand in the vast numbers before the USA and European financial crisis then it stands to reason that there will be no vacuum cleaners sold in Thailand along with a depleting number of those Tourist numbers from where the percentage of long stayers, renters and buyers came from

There must be a conversion rate statistic of 30 day tourist becoming long stayers and Ex Pats but with the lack of a credible supplier of stats we only have our own common sense and logic to rely on.

With Pattaya looking like a Ghost town most of the time these days, this confirms to me that the normal level of long term ex pats will be being reduced not just by the normal wastage like death of running out of money and having to return home but simply they are not being replaced as they were in the pre slump times....Hence the current situation!

Edited August 29, 2014 by n210mp

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Without any correct and validated statistics from a source who could be relied on we just dont know if the number of Aliens coming into Thailand as temporary immigrants or just plain tourist is either on the increase or the decrease.

..........

IMO and from what I have seen and witnessed living in the Pattaya area there is a distinct lack of European 30 day tourist punters and possibly those longer stay tourist who would maybe take a month or six month holiday.

The bars in the area are closing down at a steady rate and yes I Know they always did but it was never as bad as it is today, ask John Collinbourne

........

With Pattaya looking like a Ghost town most of the time these days, this confirms to me that the normal level of long term ex pats will be being reduced not just by the normal wastage like death of running out of money and having to return home but simply they are not being replaced as they were in the pre slump times....Hence the current situation!

White men stay long time (years), visit bars, have gone.

Asians stay short time (6 months max), drive around, have come.

Edited August 29, 2014 by AnotherOneAmerican

[hotsoup]

We have a beautiful house in CM.

We have, as you say, left and gone to greener pastures!In Thailand

1. The schools have got useless. Dara has 8000 students. Varee appears to have given up on education. Anuban CM pleaded with us not to send the youngest there

2. The traffic is out of control

3. Smoke

4, We were living in what was quite a vibrant community. Everyone has left, the children have no friends. Might as well live in Bisbee

[The Deerhunter]

• Chiang Mai business strategy seminar on 'Long Stay Tourism in Chiang Mai'

Heading of another post in TVF today............ Enuf said. Someone has also concerns about it too.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/755807-chiang-mai-business-strategy-seminar-on-long-stay-tourism-in-chiang-mai/?utm_source=newsletter-20140829-1500&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

Edited August 29, 2014 by The Deerhunter

[anto]

Could it be that they are going away because 3 to 4 months a year they can't breathe ?

Maybe they're heading home to get beter treatment for their long cancer.

I sure as hell am not looking forward to the smoke and smog starting somewhere in december !

Not that old falacy again .The air is fine 12 months of the year in C.M.

since i gave up cigars ;-)

[Caspersfriend]

Also, something which is not new but is still annoying is the Thai mentality of thinking they are Superior having been brainwashed from birth!

Nothing wrong with being proud of their country but it would be nice if they respected us!

This fellow-Brit agrees with much of your post, however, not the above when it comes to the vast majority of Thais I come across in everyday life.

I agree that some in a uniform or a similar 'position' of 'authority' are not respectful ---- but do you not think that is at least in part due to the way many 'aliens' act towards them every day of their working lives? A generalisation that many aliens adopt when judging Thais!

When I smile at the Thai people I meet they invariably smile back. When I am polite to them they are generally polite back. Never pay dual-pricing when showing a Thai driver license or Yellow Book. Often get better discounts than my Thai lovely simply by approaching the seller on the same level; which I consider myself to be.

Not getting at you English 1 for airing the general view but questioning "Are Thais brainwashed from birth!"? or do they simply see 'us' as [to the regret of most of us] as they perceive us a group?

They who shout the loudest are the most noticed.

[Alwyn]

Hi Worgeordie, I lived in CM but my business was in Phuket. We had a real estate company, established since 2004. We would typically close on 5 or 6 sales a month. When the anti-government protests started it killed us. From November til April we closed ONE sale, our website hits went from 300 per day per site to just 6 or so, some days none. There are two of us involved. We had to lay off staff, both farang and Thai. I returned to England and my partner is carrying on with rentals only. I can't complain at all about the way I was treated over the 14 years but we were shut down basically. Since the Junta took over there has been no change in interest levels. Unfortunately I'm not well off enough to retire I need to keep working, if things pick up will I go back? Not yet but that's for a different reason. My missus is coming to the UK soon so happy days. I hope all goes well for everybody with all the changes in visas etc!

[fvw53]

_{I am living in Thailand since 1987...}

_{I understand that some foreigners are frustrated with certain legal obligations before they can stay here long term...}

_{I have asked before : is there any country between Istanbul and Tokyo where it is easier for foreigners to live than in Thailand?}

_{Each time when I asked this question to a group of foreigners the honest reply was NO ....despite some bureaucratic hurdles}

_{Let us those who think the grass is greener in the meadows of other countries.... just leave Thailand and try what they think is better.}