Thai Native Cattle

[z21rhd]

Does anyone have information on Thai Indigenous Cattle in Isaan - where ? type ? contact ? etc...

I do know of 3 herds in a breeding station near Buntharic 14 degrees 45 ' North x 105 degrees 22' East. Which unfortunately is a long way from anywhere - deep in the Emerald Triangle. Closer to the

big centres would more convenient.

[Nawtilus]

You got a epirb on these cattle and sat nav to locate them...hmmm...are they sexy looking cows ??

Mostly cattle I have seen here are the brahman and brahman cross, not sure what they cross them with though here.

Unfortunately I think that the biggest cattle farm here is ChokChai and they run what we affectionately back home call shitter cows and I wonder if they use these in there steak houses. If they do, they should be shot.

I had a steak twice in this Thai famous restaurant chain and the first was bad enough, the second just totally reconfirmed that the first was bad, in fact the first was better than the second one. Worst steak in my entire life.

[z21rhd]

You got a epirb on these cattle and sat nav to locate them...hmmm...are they sexy looking cows ??

Mostly cattle I have seen here are the brahman and brahman cross, not sure what they cross them with though here.

Unfortunately I think that the biggest cattle farm here is ChokChai and they run what we affectionately back home call shitter cows and I wonder if they use these in there steak houses. If they do, they should be shot.

I had a steak twice in this Thai famous restaurant chain and the first was bad enough, the second just totally reconfirmed that the first was bad, in fact the first was better than the second one. Worst steak in my entire life.

Hi Nawtilus,

No GPS - merely took the coordinates of Buntaric off a map.

This breed is not related in any way to the Brahman or Zebu cattle. Unlike these latter imports it is able to convert poor grazing into good meat. Thai farmers have some strange idea that big cattle are better, while in fact the Brahman has a very poor reproductive record and does not happy on poor grazing.

[Nawtilus]

Disagree with brahman doing well on poor grazing. Brahmans are the main breeds of cattle both pure and cross bred which do well on the sparse cattle stations accross australia.

Certainly the cross breds do better, but only if they can handle the tropics, disease and pests and on top of that the poorer grazing. Given the problems and climate, the brahman run lean and do better.

McDonalds cannot be wrong, many australian northern cow exported to make a big Mac over the years.

[chownah]

By "Thai Indigenous Cattle" do you mean some special breed or do you just mean those smallish cows that have no particular pedigree that you see for sale at most livestock sales locations?

[z21rhd]

By "Thai Indigenous Cattle" do you mean some special breed or do you just mean those smallish cows that have no particular pedigree that you see for sale at most livestock sales locations?

Yes, I mean a special breed of cattle indigenous to Thailand , these are a recognised breed that are not related to Brahman or Zebu Cattle. Genetically not of the same blood lines - sometimes referred to as Thai Native Cattle. The development of this breed is being carried by a number of Government Agricultural Stations - the one at Butharic is just one , however, it is remote. My original question was:- are there any others in Isaan which are not off the beaten track.

I have no interest at this time in cattle reared in Australia for MacDonalds.

[bina]

chownah, correct me if im wrong, but thai native cattle as in indigenous would mean its been around for quite a while, adapted to the area, etc...like our israeli baladi (native, or beduin)chicken, baladi goat, and baladi sheep (The ones that arent the new, improved agricultural mixes) ... anything 'native' is usually all purpose usage and doesnt give a lot of meat, milk, wool, or eggs specifically, but provides enough of everything in general (as in, not an 'eggs only' chicken, or large uddered milk only goat etc)...

not "development of this breed" which would mean developing a 'new improved cow' that fits the thai climate etc....

btw, yesterday called sister of boyfriend (korat) to talk buying a young cow.... she just sold three a few days ago for 50000 baht (including one pregnant one), she needed the money... said too bad we didnt speak to her sooner etc etc...

they are the basic red brahmin mixes, long ears are OUT OF THE QUESTION TOO EXPENSIVE and taste the same says boyfriend.... there goes my dream cow....

and how come RC never mentioned native indigenous thai cows as a specific breed when we were all discussing cattle, etc???

am googling heritage species for ruminants to see if there is such a thing...

[chownah]

Z21rhd and bina,

Seems unlikely to me that they would be "developing" an indigenous breed....but maybe this is only a semantic quandry and what they mean is that they are breeding from indigenous cattle and the "developing" just means raising a bunch of them together and not bringing in other breeds.......sometimes translations get confused....or may I get confused...don't know.

My understanding (which is very small) is that to develop a breed means that you have a list of characteristics you want and you breed animals until you not only get those characteristics but those characteristics breed true given a certified male and female...is this wrong?

Also, given the outrageous prices (that have been rumored) for the long ear cows and how that fad might be wearing out maybe they figure they need a new fad to push on the unsuspecting....this is Thailand afterall.

On the other hand...if they do develop a cow with the "old" characteristics (whatever those might be) then at least when you want to cross it with some "fancy" cow you will be able to say it is a cross between known breeds rather than to say it is a "fancy cow" crossed with a question mark cow....don't know.

I'm hoping that RandomChances comes waltzing through soon.

Chownah

[bina]

it could be like the canaan dog of israel, it was always around, with specific characteristics, but it took someone (myrna shiboleth, and some others) to 'develop' the dog as a breed that had registered lineage for three generations, and all pups coming out the same etc...

i imagine thats the same as for cows goats etc... beduins can give u ten generations for their arab horses but if its not on paper, the horses are not pedigreed and therefore, not a breed but 'local'....

so maybe the prototype thai cows are becoming a registered breed which means they have to breed true to type (according to some standard set by a group of people that presumably know what they are talking about) for x amount of generations etc etc...

chownah, animal fads arent just in thailand; every country goes thru animal fads like the miniature horses, pygmy goats, etc.... the more money u have the more u want something interesting and non functional

[z21rhd]

it could be like the canaan dog of israel, it was always around, with specific characteristics, but it took someone (myrna shiboleth, and some others) to 'develop' the dog as a breed that had registered lineage for three generations, and all pups coming out the same etc...

i imagine thats the same as for cows goats etc... beduins can give u ten generations for their arab horses but if its not on paper, the horses are not pedigreed and therefore, not a breed but 'local'....

so maybe the prototype thai cows are becoming a registered breed which means they have to breed true to type (according to some standard set by a group of people that presumably know what they are talking about) for x amount of generations etc etc...

chownah, animal fads arent just in thailand; every country goes thru animal fads like the miniature horses, pygmy goats, etc.... the more money u have the more u want something interesting and non functional

Nawtilus, Chownah and Bina, Gentlemen ,

I copy my # 1 :- " Does anyone have information on Thai Indigenous Cattle in Isaan - where ? type ? contact ? etc...

I do know of 3 herds in a breeding station near Buntharic 14 degrees 45 ' North x 105 degrees 22' East. Which unfortunately is a long way from anywhere - deep in the Emerald Triangle. Closer to the big centres would more convenient. "

Unfortunately, the question I asked was overlooked - no matter.

Just so we put the record straight, I post here a link to a scientific paper by Tomoyuki Kawashima of the National Institute of Animal Industry regarding Thai Native Cattle, cocering thei digestive characteristics and energy. I can also provide other references to scientific work on this breed, however I shall not do that, as in doing so it could be regarded as being patronising, if not downright boring. See :

http://ss.jircas.affrc.go.jp/english/publi...05Kawashima.htm

[RamdomChances]

and how come RC never mentioned native indigenous thai cows as a specific breed when we were all discussing cattle,

Cos I don't really know anything about them . I've been to loads of shows and markets and have yet to come across one.

Here a pic for thelink by z21

Z21 to answer your question

Does anyone have information on Thai Indigenous Cattle in Isaan - where ? type ? contact ? etc...

No, not to my knowlage, the "farming" comunity on this forum is pretty small and they have never been mentioned in the past, mabye someone like "teletiger" might know as he's into beef cattle more than I am but until now I've never come across them. They do look simular to some types i've seen grazing on the side of the road, but that was down south.

I can also provide other references to scientific work on this breed, however I shall not do that, as in doing so it could be regarded as being patronising, if not downright boring

Well I'd be interested in any additional links and I'm sure others would be as well. About that link, There were quite a few points I dont really agree with

Consequently, low quality roughages such as rice straw are not well utilized and some are burnt in the fields

This is just not true, yes some is burn't in field's but not much, He's probably confusing it with burning of the stubble. Rice straw is by far the most heavily utilised feed in Thailand. They then go on to say that in the tests

Metabolism trials were conducted in sheep, Brahman cattle, swamp buffalo and Thai native cattle given Ruzi grass hay with different levels of soybean meal in order to examine the effect of protein levels on fiber digestion. The quality of hay used in each trial was slightly different and the crude protein (CP) contents in four dietary treatments ranged from about 3, 6.5, 10 and 13.5%

So the test were'nt even carried out using rice straw but a diet far above that which most cattle are given here (i.e Ruzi grass and soybean meal). Which is hardly an indication in their ability to "utilize low quality roughage". I also did'nt really understand the big thing about "fiber digestibility" as I'd always thought the big thing with "fiber" was it was'nt digestible.

You might find that although the local Brahman have a higher energy requirment that because they are larger you may have a better meat to bone ratio than the possibly more efficent "thai" cattle. Anyone that tells you

the Brahman has a very poor reproductive record and does not happy on poor grazing.

Is quite frankly talking out of their ass.

[Gary A]

Brahman is about as native as it can get. Why do you suppose there are so many here in Thailand? If anyone had a better breed you would certainly see a lot of them.

I'm not a beef farmer and know very little other than what the farmers here have told me. I always wondered why they didn't raise big juicy tomatoes here. Now I know, it's because they DIE! I have tried every method I know other than hydroponic. Regardless of what you may think the farmers here are NOT stupid. They raise the best breed for the conditions.

[chownah]

it could be like the canaan dog of israel, it was always around, with specific characteristics, but it took someone (myrna shiboleth, and some others) to 'develop' the dog as a breed that had registered lineage for three generations, and all pups coming out the same etc...

i imagine thats the same as for cows goats etc... beduins can give u ten generations for their arab horses but if its not on paper, the horses are not pedigreed and therefore, not a breed but 'local'....

so maybe the prototype thai cows are becoming a registered breed which means they have to breed true to type (according to some standard set by a group of people that presumably know what they are talking about) for x amount of generations etc etc...

chownah, animal fads arent just in thailand; every country goes thru animal fads like the miniature horses, pygmy goats, etc.... the more money u have the more u want something interesting and non functional

Nawtilus, Chownah and Bina, Gentlemen ,

I copy my # 1 :- " Does anyone have information on Thai Indigenous Cattle in Isaan - where ? type ? contact ? etc...

I do know of 3 herds in a breeding station near Buntharic 14 degrees 45 ' North x 105 degrees 22' East. Which unfortunately is a long way from anywhere - deep in the Emerald Triangle. Closer to the big centres would more convenient. "

Unfortunately, the question I asked was overlooked - no matter.

Just so we put the record straight, I post here a link to a scientific paper by Tomoyuki Kawashima of the National Institute of Animal Industry regarding Thai Native Cattle, cocering thei digestive characteristics and energy. I can also provide other references to scientific work on this breed, however I shall not do that, as in doing so it could be regarded as being patronising, if not downright boring. See :

http://ss.jircas.affrc.go.jp/english/publi...05Kawashima.htm

The link is interesting. I notice that the article always refers to "Thai native cattle"....not capitolized except for "Thai" which obviously needs to be capitolized. To me this means that there was no specific breed of "Thai native cattle" used in this study but that it is a term being used to denote the "smallish cows that have no particular pedigree that you see for sale at most livestock sales locations" as I mentioned in post #5. The author does talk about characteristics of interest (efficiency of forage utilization) and this study looks like it was done to give scientific credence to the idea that developing a lineage from these cattle could benefit livestock breeding in Thailand in general (and perhaps elsewhere). I'm wondering if the breeders at Buntaric are using this study as the starting point and justification for their work.....did you find this link through them? Also, I'd be interested in the other material or links you have.

In your original post you asked "where ? type ? contact ? etc...". I think that we are presently addressing the "type?" query and your request for "etc...". When we get these things well understood all around then perhaps someone will come up with "where?" and "contact?".....although it might turn out that this breed does not exist yet and is only being developed...or that it has just been developed at Buntaric.....I don't know.... but so far its been interesting reading what everyone has to say.

Chownah

[Nawtilus]

The cattle in that photo look like a cross between brahman and the shitter cows I mentioned before, jersey even.

And yes, anyone who says Brahman do not do well on poorer grazing and have poor reproduction should go and visit some australian cattle properties....yes even the one that support MacDonalds....

Edited July 31, 2006 by Nawtilus

[bina]

forage usage: if i remember correctly, there were studies doen also on goats (i know i know me and goats, but still...) that were forage only in mediterranean areas/ and or scrub brush areas and they were given , i think, maybe urea???or something else as an additonal supplement and they were found to produce more milk since they were utilizing the fiber better...

have to go back thru my ruminant stuff again...

z2, all of us here have some experience with animal husbandry of some sort or an other, and enjoy learning more; i am especially interested in 'native' types of ruminants and canines (pariah dogs in all parts of the world), and i raise goats (the native , baladi mixed type in israel)... we arent ingnoring your questions but exterpolating and enhancing with what we know or would like to know.... which is part of being on this forum ;

u might want to check out our other threads on farming in issaan etc that were long, informative and good discussions...

seems to me that the development of a 'thai native cow' is just that! as i and chownah have both stated: they may be developing a 'new improved cow' that fits the thai climate from the regular thai cow by making it into a 'real' breed with a breed standard, written pedigree, production levels etc, and not just a bunch of cows kept by farmers ....

then of course, the prices go up (its like pedigree shaami./baladi goats as apposed to shaami/baladi goats w/o papers, milk and meat are the same just more expensive)

bina

israel

[plachon]

Brahman is about as native as it can get. Why do you suppose there are so many here in Thailand? If anyone had a better breed you would certainly see a lot of them.

I'm not a beef farmer and know very little other than what the farmers here have told me. I always wondered why they didn't raise big juicy tomatoes here. Now I know, it's because they DIE! I have tried every method I know other than hydroponic. Regardless of what you may think the farmers here are NOT stupid. They raise the best breed for the conditions.

<deleted> and bullshit Gary! That's my reaction to points 1 and 2:

1. There is a native breed of Thai cattle found all over Isaan, but getting rarer by the day, as farmers up-breed their cattle with all these fancy breeds and lose the real McCoy. It's about navel high, tough as nuts, and generally paler in colour to the ones in the photo. Will look out a photo ifI can, but not sure if I have a decent one.

2. Isaan farmers raise millions of big juicy tomatoes for sale to agri-business companies every cool season, especially in upper Northeast provinces bordering Mekong. They do particuarly well along the rich alluvial soils and there are factories for processing them to east and west of Nong Khai, plus Nakhon Phanom.

But you're spot on about most farmers being anything but stupid and mostly being fairly logical as to their breed selection. Apart from that is, throwing their money away on these big, floppy eared cows, which are just going to end up as stewing beef!

[z21rhd]

Brahman is about as native as it can get. Why do you suppose there are so many here in Thailand? If anyone had a better breed you would certainly see a lot of them.

I'm not a beef farmer and know very little other than what the farmers here have told me. I always wondered why they didn't raise big juicy tomatoes here. Now I know, it's because they DIE! I have tried every method I know other than hydroponic. Regardless of what you may think the farmers here are NOT stupid. They raise the best breed for the conditions.

<deleted> and bullshit Gary! That's my reaction to points 1 and 2:

1. There is a native breed of Thai cattle found all over Isaan, but getting rarer by the day, as farmers up-breed their cattle with all these fancy breeds and lose the real McCoy. It's about navel high, tough as nuts, and generally paler in colour to the ones in the photo. Will look out a photo ifI can, but not sure if I have a decent one.

2. Isaan farmers raise millions of big juicy tomatoes for sale to agri-business companies every cool season, especially in upper Northeast provinces bordering Mekong. They do particuarly well along the rich alluvial soils and there are factories for processing them to east and west of Nong Khai, plus Nakhon Phanom.

But you're spot on about most farmers being anything but stupid and mostly being fairly logical as to their breed selection. Apart from that is, throwing their money away on these big, floppy eared cows, which are just going to end up as stewing beef!

Thanks Plachon,

Almost as good as overturning the notion that Planin is also native to Thailand !

suadaao

[chownah]

Brahman is about as native as it can get. Why do you suppose there are so many here in Thailand? If anyone had a better breed you would certainly see a lot of them.

I'm not a beef farmer and know very little other than what the farmers here have told me. I always wondered why they didn't raise big juicy tomatoes here. Now I know, it's because they DIE! I have tried every method I know other than hydroponic. Regardless of what you may think the farmers here are NOT stupid. They raise the best breed for the conditions.

<deleted> and bullshit Gary! That's my reaction to points 1 and 2:

1. There is a native breed of Thai cattle found all over Isaan, but getting rarer by the day, as farmers up-breed their cattle with all these fancy breeds and lose the real McCoy. It's about navel high, tough as nuts, and generally paler in colour to the ones in the photo. Will look out a photo ifI can, but not sure if I have a decent one.

2. Isaan farmers raise millions of big juicy tomatoes for sale to agri-business companies every cool season, especially in upper Northeast provinces bordering Mekong. They do particuarly well along the rich alluvial soils and there are factories for processing them to east and west of Nong Khai, plus Nakhon Phanom.

But you're spot on about most farmers being anything but stupid and mostly being fairly logical as to their breed selection. Apart from that is, throwing their money away on these big, floppy eared cows, which are just going to end up as stewing beef!

Plachon,

These cows you're talking about sound alot like the "smallish cows that have no particular pedigree that you see for sale at most livestock sales locations" that I mentioned in post #5. Since you seem to be able to identify this "breed" can you explain how you identified cows as being from this breed to z21rhd since he wants to know where he can find some....seems to me that he could just look at the local livestock sale since you say that they are found all over Isaan.

Chownah

[teletiger]

I presume you're all talking about the little Thai-Dai cows. Dun to sandy coloured, about the same size as a jersey. I bought 2 heifers when I first came to Thailand. They turned from 2 skinny girls, into 2 barrel- bodied (reminiscent of hereford) shiney coated models in about 5 months. On good feed they turn into highly desireable items. Why??..No idea. We could have sold ours 10 times over. Much to my wife's chagrin, I only sold them once. I've only ever seen one purebred Thai-dai bull. About the size of a Dexter (1000lbs). They are often crossed with Brahman , which says volumes for their calving ability. As to their geneology and origins, I have no clue. All my neighbours think of them as Thai cows though. As far as milk and beef are concerned, they are a non starter I'm afraid. (having said that, I've never tried a steak......but...no, no)

regards

[Nawtilus]

If they are a non starter for dairy and beef, what are they good for then...besides selling 10 times each, that could be lucrative you know !!

[bina]

then that backs up what i said in previous posts: 'native' or 'indidenous' types of any animal are all-round, general use types i.e. fit the climate, but are not specifically bred for just milk or just meat, or just wool, or just eggs (in case of chickens etc)... they provide a bit of everything which for most people what was needed int he old days: a single type that is multi use; otherwise u need to have two different types for your food provision....less expensive this way, like a multi purpose vehicle as opposed to having a race car, an all terrain car, and a family car

that would be an all purpose cow for meat/milk/whatever, eats whatever there is and survives, needs no special care and still provides.... of course, given teletiger's care, he gets more out of them .....

why are they called thai-dai ??? what does that mean??

[Maizefarmer]

There is no sense in importing livestock from Australia or Europe to breed for milkers or beef in Thailand. The economics of it are totally senseless.

The best stock in Thailand has for the last 10 or so come from Chok Chai. You need to get in early and “book” what you want – before it gets shipped down to Malaysia.

There is also no sense in using top grade (read as: expensive) imported European semen. The high net producers from Europe are ideal for European environmental conditions. They are no good for Thailand. It is interesting to note that having got feed back from friends in Holland and the UK, which has had one of the hottest June months ever on record this year (with temperatures in the 30’s, which is what we have everyday here year round), that their high production milkers are down nearly 40% for the month. Point made I think.

And for the lofty thinkers amongst us – the concept of climate controlled barns to sustain European high producers has been attempted in Thailand. It is fraught with problems on a commercial basis – in other words: not worth the hassle.

Your best bet is semen from a bull with an established and verifiable herd (e.g. Chok Chai – but there are others).

In my humble opinion – and after nearly 15 years of profitably running a dairy farm in NE/Thailand I think I can comment – you are going to be best off with a mixed breed animal consisting of:

Friesian (Aussie, New Zealand or even better Dutch – which is where the others come from) about 30 % - 40%, mixed with Sahiwal (from India or Pakistan) 40% and about 20% of any of the local “indigenous cows”.

The importance of the “local genetic input” if I can use that expression, is that its genes, absolutely useless for milk, are very resistant to local parasites & bugs. Its digestive system is also well adapted to local forage and gives the animal an ability to deal with the low local protein content.

That all said, there is no ideal “milker” or beef animal. The ideal “milker” or beef animal is determined by YOUR farming practise and how YOU are planning to feed and manage that cow.

Most of my “milkers” are over 70% Fresian with about 15% - 20% Sahiwal and the rest Thai indigenous, whereas my “beef” cows are about 50% Friesian, 40% Sahiwal and the last 10% local. Why, because the one is breed for weight and the other is breed for metabolic rate – and both are fed very different diets.

I repeat: there is no ideal “milker” or beef animal. The ideal “milker” or beef animal in Thailand is determined by YOUR farming practise and how YOU are planning to feed and manage that animal. What may be good for you, will not be good for someone else who has a different management policy.

Stay away from “foreigners” – like us, they take a long time to adapt to the environment.

Tim

[plachon]

quote name='chownah' date='2006-08-01 05:01:33' post='831835']

Brahman is about as native as it can get. Why do you suppose there are so many here in Thailand? If anyone had a better breed you would certainly see a lot of them.

I'm not a beef farmer and know very little other than what the farmers here have told me. I always wondered why they didn't raise big juicy tomatoes here. Now I know, it's because they DIE! I have tried every method I know other than hydroponic. Regardless of what you may think the farmers here are NOT stupid. They raise the best breed for the conditions.

<deleted> and bullshit Gary! That's my reaction to points 1 and 2:

1. There is a native breed of Thai cattle found all over Isaan, but getting rarer by the day, as farmers up-breed their cattle with all these fancy breeds and lose the real McCoy. It's about navel high, tough as nuts, and generally paler in colour to the ones in the photo. Will look out a photo ifI can, but not sure if I have a decent one.

2. Isaan farmers raise millions of big juicy tomatoes for sale to agri-business companies every cool season, especially in upper Northeast provinces bordering Mekong. They do particuarly well along the rich alluvial soils and there are factories for processing them to east and west of Nong Khai, plus Nakhon Phanom.

But you're spot on about most farmers being anything but stupid and mostly being fairly logical as to their breed selection. Apart from that is, throwing their money away on these big, floppy eared cows, which are just going to end up as stewing beef!

Plachon,

These cows you're talking about sound alot like the "smallish cows that have no particular pedigree that you see for sale at most livestock sales locations" that I mentioned in post #5. Since you seem to be able to identify this "breed" can you explain how you identified cows as being from this breed to z21rhd since he wants to know where he can find some....seems to me that he could just look at the local livestock sale since you say that they are found all over Isaan.

Chownah

Aye, that's them Chownah. All over the shop. no need to go to some far flung govt. cattle breeding station to get hold of 'em, but just do some country driving as far away as possible from the stations and provincial centres as possible, where farmers exist who haven't given in to the temptation to up-breed, or their cattle are living out in the forest most of the time.

Like little Jersey's or guernsey's when fattened up these "wua pan thai" or "wua peun ban". Haven't heard the term "thai dai" as teletiger calls them, but I'm sure we're talking about the same animal. Whether they are classed as an official "breed" or not, but most Thais would recognise one if they saw one, although they are getting progressively rarer with time. All turning into the beasts in the photo below. Sorry can't find a photo of the real thing.