Jump to content

Search resumes for missing AirAsia passenger jet


webfact

Recommended Posts

...

SAR in SEAsia has proved to be not reaching the higher levels of competence required for these situations - mostly at the command level and probably due to the politiking going on. Meantime there are possibly a considerable number of people floating in the ocean.

...

This is based on your personal experience maybe?

Early November this year, working about 160 nm southeast of South Vietnam. We had a small boat operation where a PLB (personal locator beacon) was accidentally activated by sea water contact. The automated emergency transmission was stopped within 6 minutes and within 10 minutes, a statement issued to all listeners that it was an erroneous activation, nobody lost a sea. About 40 minutes later, we had a Navy recon plane fly by, just checking to make sure.

Edited by NanLaew
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The pilot asked for a change in heading and 1 minute later they lost contact with the plane.

The plane has a transponder that reports its position, heading, altitude and speed and its identity to Center. (Control Center.)

The plane has an Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) which begins to send a signal upon a crash or going into water. It puts out a strong beacon which can be heard by every aircraft in the vicinity and anything else that has a receiver. There have been a lot of airplanes flying the area.

I have heard an ELT while flying because someone accidentally turned it on while a plane was parked at an airport. Reports from me and other pilots about drove the Control Center nuts.

No one has any idea where the plane is. The best they can do right now is say it "most likely" went down in the ocean.

Oh really? Why did the transponder stop? Why doesn't someone hear the ELT?

Because ELT's are either inside the life rafts or located somewhere where only the crew has access. Unlike a ship where the equivalent (SART and EPIRB) can be grabbed off the wall and activated by hand.

There's ELT's on the aircraft and I believe in the liferafts as well -- it beggars belief that they *all* failed

Unless the liferafts lie undeployed amongst the mangled plane wreckage on the sea floor which is where they are right now.
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is just simply crazy...

I have an Android APP that tells me where I parked my car

Surely the Airlines have something more advanced and if they dont, perhaps they should install the "Wheres my car/plane" App on all planes...

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...

SAR in SEAsia has proved to be not reaching the higher levels of competence required for these situations - mostly at the command level and probably due to the politiking going on. Meantime there are possibly a considerable number of people floating in the ocean.

...

This is based on your personal experience maybe?

Early November this year, working about 160 nm southeast of South Vietnam. We had a small boat operation where a PLB (personal locator beacon) was accidentally activated by sea water contact. The automated emergency transmission was stopped within 6 minutes and within 10 minutes, a statement issued to all listeners that it was an erroneous activation, nobody lost a sea. About 40 minutes later, we had a Navy recon plane fly by, just checking to make sure.

Based on their performance during the search for the still-missing Malaysia Airlines aircraft recently

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Asks to (permission granted??) ascend and within 6 minutes isn't seen on radar? Sounds to me it went down as it was trying to ascend in a thunderstorm. Quite possible it had problem climbing and they should have a good idea of where abouts the plane went down. Granted the thunderstorm could scatter the pieces so which way was the wind blowing, search there first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The pilot asked for a change in heading and 1 minute later they lost contact with the plane.

The plane has a transponder that reports its position, heading, altitude and speed and its identity to Center. (Control Center.)

The plane has an Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) which begins to send a signal upon a crash or going into water. It puts out a strong beacon which can be heard by every aircraft in the vicinity and anything else that has a receiver. There have been a lot of airplanes flying the area.

I have heard an ELT while flying because someone accidentally turned it on while a plane was parked at an airport. Reports from me and other pilots about drove the Control Center nuts.

No one has any idea where the plane is. The best they can do right now is say it "most likely" went down in the ocean.

Oh really? Why did the transponder stop? Why doesn't someone hear the ELT?

Because ELT's are either inside the life rafts or located somewhere where only the crew has access. Unlike a ship where the equivalent (SART and EPIRB) can be grabbed off the wall and activated by hand.

There's ELT's on the aircraft and I believe in the liferafts as well -- it beggars belief that they *all* failed

Unless the liferafts lie undeployed amongst the mangled plane wreckage on the sea floor which is where they are right now.

Not sure nowadays, but in my day the cockpit crew all had personal elt's and the aircraft one was on a hook for the captain to grab. It also went off if you dropped it, or got it wet enough.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unbelievable in this Day and Age , They cannot find a Jetliner of this size, it Boggles The Mind...

It's just a small dot when compared to the size of the sea.

When I was at school, our teacher put the 18 inch classroom globe on his desk. He then stuck a pin in it right in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

I'll never forget his words;

"If you were adrift in a lifeboat, that pinhole would be your horizon"

That's how big these oceans are. Therefore agree with you.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure nowadays, but in my day the cockpit crew all had personal elt's and the aircraft one was on a hook for the captain to grab. It also went off if you dropped it, or got it wet enough.

Things haven't changed much and confirms what I already said "...somewhere where only the crew has access."

I am pretty sure when the airplane is in a stall and tailspin, the last think the skipper is thinking about is getting that pesky ELT off the hook by the door.

On the thread in the PPRuNe forum, there was an early comment about a recent Airbus maintenance directive related to the AoA tubes. Are these the same as the Pitot tubes that were integral to the demise of AF447 of northern Brazil in 2009? In that instance, the tubes iced up causing the autopilot to disconnect whereupon pilot error based on wrong assumptions of plane attitude lead to the unrecoverable aerodynamic stall. There's also maybe a similar scenario of trying to recover from a stall in the thin air afforded at 38,000', the same height from which 447 plummeted to its doom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unbelievable in this Day and Age , They cannot find a Jetliner of this size, it Boggles The Mind...

The ocean is vast...not like your garden variety backyard swimming pool.

It has an "Epirb" that should give the exact location

This is Asia, maybe someone nicked it

Edited by soalbundy
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure nowadays, but in my day the cockpit crew all had personal elt's and the aircraft one was on a hook for the captain to grab. It also went off if you dropped it, or got it wet enough.

Things haven't changed much and confirms what I already said "...somewhere where only the crew has access."

I am pretty sure when the airplane is in a stall and tailspin, the last think the skipper is thinking about is getting that pesky ELT off the hook by the door.

On the thread in the PPRuNe forum, there was an early comment about a recent Airbus maintenance directive related to the AoA tubes. Are these the same as the Pitot tubes that were integral to the demise of AF447 of northern Brazil in 2009? In that instance, the tubes iced up causing the autopilot to disconnect whereupon pilot error based on wrong assumptions of plane attitude lead to the unrecoverable aerodynamic stall. There's also maybe a similar scenario of trying to recover from a stall in the thin air afforded at 38,000', the same height from which 447 plummeted to its doom.

There was a report on the BBC, unconfirmed by them, that the radar tracked progress of the plane indicated it was travelling slow enough that a mid air stall was possible. So your scenario is definitely a possibility. But as I said, the BBC were not able to confirm this report.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unbelievable in this Day and Age , They cannot find a Jetliner of this size, it Boggles The Mind...

It's just a small dot when compared to the size of the sea.

. I kinda meant Technology Wise...

.

In 1976, the NRO's KH-11 surveillance satellite was put into orbit. It was recently revealed its optics had resolution down to 3.9 inches, from two hundred miles above the earth.

What do you think they have nowadays?

The high tech stuff is focused on you and I, to make sure were not becoming or mixing with political subversives.

Planes are easy to find, usually!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sure there are reasons, including bad weather, but it's a great concern when it takes so long for a search to get organized when a plane goes missing.

I have to admit that I am far from being an expert regarding air travel technicalities and search and rescue operations.

But the question comes to me: Why is it that not imidiately after learning that the plane was missing ships and aircrafts were sent for searching? The area where the plane disappeared was known, at least the direction were to go was known. I would understand if they had waited until it was sure the plane had run out of petrol., But waiting six or more hours when humans might be in danger and may be lives could be saved- isn't that a crime?

May be I am naive so I would be happy if some expert could explain

Dude, ships need to be refueled, crews assemblied, tides, tug boats to exit the shallow waters, data, gps data, command information, thia is not a drive-thru reataurant.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, not correct. ELT are on a locked power system which means when power is loss a crash etc... the circuit ground is lost and operates for 30 days down to 18,000 feet of water. There are 2 one in the nose area and one in the tail. No one onboard can trigger the system.

The pilot asked for a change in heading and 1 minute later they lost contact with the plane.

The plane has a transponder that reports its position, heading, altitude and speed and its identity to Center. (Control Center.)

The plane has an Emergency Locator Transmitter (ELT) which begins to send a signal upon a crash or going into water. It puts out a strong beacon which can be heard by every aircraft in the vicinity and anything else that has a receiver. There have been a lot of airplanes flying the area.

I have heard an ELT while flying because someone accidentally turned it on while a plane was parked at an airport. Reports from me and other pilots about drove the Control Center nuts.

No one has any idea where the plane is. The best they can do right now is say it "most likely" went down in the ocean.

Oh really? Why did the transponder stop? Why doesn't someone hear the ELT?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Malaysia, Singapore, Australia and India join hands with Indonesia in search
The Star
Kuala Lumpur

mysterydec292014.jpg

KUALA LUMPUR: -- Five nations have joined hands in the massive search and rescue operation for missing Indonesia AirAsia flight QZ8501 which went off the radar en route from Surabaya to Singapore.

Indonesian air traffic control lost contact with the Airbus A320-200 aircraft at 6.24 am (Western Indonesian time, an hour behind Malaysian time) as it was flying with 155 passengers and seven crew members on board yesterday.

In a show of Asean solidarity, Malaysia and Singapore offered assistance to Indonesia to look for the plane while Australia and India have also offered to help.

The six-year-old Airbus A320-200, which was last serviced in November, was flying over the Java Sea in Indonesian airspace when communication with air traffic control ceased about 42 minutes after take-off from Juanda Airport. The aircraft was supposed to have landed at Singapore's Changi Airport at 8:30am.

The pilot had asked for a new route minutes before he went off the radio, air traffic control said.

The plane's last detected position was 100 nautical miles south-east of Tanjung Pandan on Belitung Island.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/aec/Malaysia-Singapore-Australia-and-India-join-hands--30250893.html

nationlogo.jpg
-- The Nation 2014-12-29

Link to comment
Share on other sites

They seem to have no trouble scrambling fighters immediatly and intercepting light aircraft the have flight plans accepted by the indonesians and all the clearences except apparently a military one and forcing them to land and stay in jail for long periods till the huge fines are paid.

Pity they could not have scrambled a few for the SAR immediatly and a few may possibley be saved but admittedly this is unlikey

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sure there are reasons, including bad weather, but it's a great concern when it takes so long for a search to get organized when a plane goes missing.

I have to admit that I am far from being an expert regarding air travel technicalities and search and rescue operations.

But the question comes to me: Why is it that not imidiately after learning that the plane was missing ships and aircrafts were sent for searching? The area where the plane disappeared was known, at least the direction were to go was known. I would understand if they had waited until it was sure the plane had run out of petrol., But waiting six or more hours when humans might be in danger and may be lives could be saved- isn't that a crime?

May be I am naive so I would be happy if some expert could explain

Agreed. The SAR response was pitiful.

From Indonesia National SAR official briefing:

(all times local)

05:36 QZ8501 departed Juanda airport, Surabaya

06:12 Contacts Jakarta center 125.70 at FL320, requests weather deviation left of M635 airway and climb to FL380

06:16 QZ8501 still observed on radar

06:17 Radar contact lost. Radio contact lost. Only ADS-B signal remained. (what flightradar24.com and others use.)

06:18 All contact lost. Only flight plan view on radar screen.

07:08 ATC declares INCERFA (aircraft position uncertain)

07:28 ATC declares ALERTFA (emergency alert)

07:55 ATC declares DETRESFA (emergency distress)

http://www.thaivisa....dpost&p=8862090

50 minutes from the aircraft going off radio and off radar before they alerted anyone

9 hours before they accepted help with what was obviously going to be a difficult SAR operation

This is truly scary....

49 minutes elapse from loss of radar AND radio contact before they decide that the aircraft's position is uncertain? Surely that can't be right?!!

Then a further 20 minutes before they decide it warrants being called an emergency and finally a staggering further 27 minute delay before issuing an Emergency Distress?

Good grief. That seems like a mountain of incompetence to me, or am I way off?

That's a full 98 minutes between losing contact and deciding that it warrants a distress classification.....

Makes me nervous for my next flight over this area, especially as it will be on Malaysian Airlines again.

sad.png

I think some peoples expectations are a bit too high! Even if search and rescue were on the spot at the exact second the plane hit the water or land, The reality would be there would be little they could do. So to expect a rescue mission to be mounted within minutes would be a waste of time and resources if they don't Have a fairly accurate location for the downed craft.

When you loose contact with an aircraft how long do you wait and see if it is a glitch with the electronics and contact may be established again or declare an emergency? Especially when the flight is only about an hour from it's destination.

If the plane had managed to land somewhere intact, be it land or sea they would have known now.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Huge search areas that go well to the northwest of the last plotted position that we have seen. I would reckon that like AF447, the plane was in a nose-up stall with very little forward velocity and would have hit the water, tail-first at over 200 kmh, breaking up on impact.

The prevailing currents in that channel are flowing FROM the North-Northwest TO East-Southeast. If there is any wreckage, it will be towards the east.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Unbelievable in this Day and Age , They cannot find a Jetliner of this size, it Boggles The Mind...


The ocean is vast...not like your garden variety backyard swimming pool.

200 x 800 km at an ave depth of 150ft is hardly a vast ocean.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing I can think about is incompetence; mechanical, structural or poor decisions. Perhaps it is time to begin making new routes for flights during stormy weather and to hell with numbers and profits. Picking a fight with a storm cell is about as idiotic as it comes, while taking years off the airplane's integrity. 15 extra minutes or an hour or so to go around and this type of thing can be a non-issue. I blame this on stupidity and greed.

My heartfelt sympathies to the families if the worst is true.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing I can think about is incompetence; mechanical, structural or poor decisions. Perhaps it is time to begin making new routes for flights during stormy weather and to hell with numbers and profits. Picking a fight with a storm cell is about as idiotic as it comes, while taking years off the airplane's integrity. 15 extra minutes or an hour or so to go around and this type of thing can be a non-issue. I blame this on stupidity and greed.

My heartfelt sympathies to the families if the worst is true.

Given that no-one here was in the cockpit, and - AFAIK - not one of us has a commercial pilot's licence, perhaps it's a little early to be making those claims. The pilot reportedly had many thousands of hours flying time - doesnt mean he's infallible, but laying the blame at his feet when we still dont know exactly what happened seems premature for mine.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unbelievable in this Day and Age , They cannot find a Jetliner of this size, it Boggles The Mind...

It's just a small dot when compared to the size of the sea.

. I kinda meant Technology Wise...

and also although the sea might be 'big', i really cant imagine the search area to that vast, The plane checked in 1 minute before it vanished .If it vanished so suddenly without a distress call it didn't fly far. the report said planes go 8 miles / minute so even allowing for tolerances . You can put a point on a map and draw a circle with a 10 or 12 mile radius for a primary search area maybe a little more as a secondary one. ruling out land masses and areas populated by shipping and other air traffic. and the fact the plane wouldn't be carrying much fuel for a short trip even assuming that not beacons were activated and the pilot was oblivious to any problems on board. its as weird as the last disappearance. conspiracy theorists bring it on. as nothing makes sense. if the pilot got lost in a storm cloud wouldnt you send off a distress signal or would you just keep on flying round on the off chance you got it together...

Edited by epicstuff
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is this the former Geruda airline? The one that had their landing rights revoked in all countries due to abysmal safety records. Did they reinvent themselves in AirAsia?

AFAIK, nothing to do with Garuda but an interesting historical footnote if you follow the labyrinth of Indonesian politics:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia_AirAsia#As_Indonesia_AirAsia

The airline was established as Awair (Air Wagon International) in 1999 by Abdurrahman Wahid, former chairman of the Nahdlatul Ulama Muslim organisation. He had a 40% stake in the airline which he relinquished after being elected president of Indonesia in October 1999. It started operations on 22 June 2000 with Airbus 300/310 aircraft, but all flights were suspended in March 2002. Awair started operating domestically within Indonesia as an associate of AirAsia in December 2004.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdurrahman_Wahid

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The only thing I can think about is incompetence; mechanical, structural or poor decisions. Perhaps it is time to begin making new routes for flights during stormy weather and to hell with numbers and profits. Picking a fight with a storm cell is about as idiotic as it comes, while taking years off the airplane's integrity. 15 extra minutes or an hour or so to go around and this type of thing can be a non-issue. I blame this on stupidity and greed.

My heartfelt sympathies to the families if the worst is true.

Given that no-one here was in the cockpit, and - AFAIK - not one of us has a commercial pilot's licence, perhaps it's a little early to be making those claims. The pilot reportedly had many thousands of hours flying time - doesnt mean he's infallible, but laying the blame at his feet when we still dont know exactly what happened seems premature for mine.

I have a UK ATPL - but not current and not on airbuses

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.





×
×
  • Create New...