Promenada - The Beginning of The End?

[MESmith]

What you don’t want to do is build a multi-billion baht mall that has no customers.

Yeah you do,

At the end of the day you have a clean bit of land to sell.

And you cleaned a lot of money by owning the building firms that overcharged wildly for the building work.

Two hits of laundering money in one go.

If you were able to buy a piece of land with cash (and no-one cared where these cash came from) or maybe via an offshore company to which you had managed to channel dirty money (but then, the hard part of the laundering has already been done), then yes, selling that piece of land would somewhat launder your money, except of course if the authorities look into it, they’ll not stop at the sale of the land, they’ll also want to know how the land was obtained.

Regardless, Promenada was not built by some anonymous offshore company or an unknown developer who paid everything in cash, and then sold the entire thing. It was built by a publicly traded Polish company, so quite sure the books are quite open about the land deal and related development activities, and the mall hasn’t been sold, so even if it was all funded with dirty money, nothing has yet been laundered (since no profit has been generated), just a major loss.

Yes, there is a theoretical possibility that the developer owns the building companies and they then use the opportunity to take in dirty money (from what exactly?) and then cook their books to launder them, but that’s where I say that this is an extremely costly way to launder money.

So can we please put the money laundering theory to rest?

[MaeJoMTB]

Yes, there is a theoretical possibility that the developer owns the building companies and they then use the opportunity to take in dirty money (from what exactly?) and then cook their books to launder them, but that’s where I say that this is an extremely costly way to launder money.

So can we please put the money laundering theory to rest?

30-40% is not considered a bad deal.

So just double charging on building materials would do the job.

[sappersrest]

What on earth has a debate about money laundering got to do with debating the pros and cons of Promenada shopping mall? A bit off topic,Remember Thailand has tough libel laws.

[maanoi]

I had confirmation today that CNX Immi is moving the Visa Extensions/Reporting office to Promenada "next month".

Good to hear they will be doing extensions at prom.

I would be suprised if they are ready next month though.

From my first hand experience in dealing with Thai builders / contractors. With the delays that are bound to happen. I think the smart money is on opening in July or August.

[Johpa]

So can we please put the money laundering theory to rest?

Given that nothing much has changed since Achaan Pasuk wrote "Guns, Girls, Gambling, Ganja: Thailand's Illegal Economy and Public Policy" back in 1998, I think it is safe to say that just about any cash generating business of any size within the Kingdom is used to launder some money. Chaiyo!

[NancyL]

Come on -- let's let back on topic. Dreaming of having Immigration at the Prom ready in time for tourist season!

Oh drat, I just realized this means Dave will probably stop work on the Duke's at Maya and go back to working on his stalled Baja Joe Mexican restaurant at Promenada. Oh well.

[Bill97]

Come on -- let's let back on topic. Dreaming of having Immigration at the Prom ready in time for tourist season!

Oh drat, I just realized this means Dave will probably stop work on the Duke's at Maya and go back to working on his stalled Baja Joe Mexican restaurant at Promenada. Oh well.

Dave focusing on quality rather than expansion would be welcome.

[Bill97]

If you can not figure it out, don't worry about it. I gave up trying to explain the obvious.

What a cheap cop-out!

No cop-out, his first explanation complete and clear.

[WorkingTourist]

What a cheap cop-out!

No cop-out, his first explanation complete and clear.

His “explanation” was: Dirty money is used to buy a clean enterprise/building/asset then the money produced by or earned by that clean entity/asset is clean.

No-one came to Thailand with funds of unknown origin and bought Promenada as a clean enterprise. Furthermore, the money laundering theory came up as an explanation of why someone would run a mall with a deficit, but as I have pointed out in a previous post, all the businesses are independent entities, so the mall owner can only inflate the income from renting out floorspace, which is easy to audit, and if all the business close, because the mall sees so little traffic, there is no rental income to inflate.

So again, the theory maks absolutely no sense.

[thaibeachlovers]

I had confirmation today that CNX Immi is moving the Visa Extensions/Reporting office to Promenada "next month".

My assumption is that this a temporary measure which may permit the construction of long overdue, and previously discussed, new premises at the airport site. But I could be wrong on that score so don't quote me please.

One would hope that BM's like WT above, are encouraged to participate in making improvements in the system as the generally super-friendly Immi staff can certainly benefit from our assistance as much as we might.

Oh PLEASE let it be true. Having just been to CMI- no AC, crowded, confusing, disgraceful toilets, Promenada would be paradise in comparison.

[Dante99]

I had confirmation today that CNX Immi is moving the Visa Extensions/Reporting office to Promenada "next month".

Please do tell us who provided the confirmation. Thanks.

[anon467848]

I had confirmation today that CNX Immi is moving the Visa Extensions/Reporting office to Promenada "next month".

Please do tell us who provided the confirmation. Thanks.

Just for clarification, the Immigration office is across the road from the Promenada, not inside as some people are alluding to here....

[thaibeachlovers]

I had confirmation today that CNX Immi is moving the Visa Extensions/Reporting office to Promenada "next month".

Please do tell us who provided the confirmation. Thanks.

Just for clarification, the Immigration office is across the road from the Promenada, not inside as some people are alluding to here....

If that is true, it's a terrible move. Just another congested office and harder to get to.

[maanoi]

I had confirmation today that CNX Immi is moving the Visa Extensions/Reporting office to Promenada "next month".

Please do tell us who provided the confirmation. Thanks.

Just for clarification, the Immigration office is across the road from the Promenada, not inside as some people are alluding to here....

It is moving to inside promenda. As I mentioned earlier I confirmed with promenada that they are coming.

[northernjohn]

I had confirmation today that CNX Immi is moving the Visa Extensions/Reporting office to Promenada "next month".

Please do tell us who provided the confirmation. Thanks.

Just for clarification, the Immigration office is across the road from the Promenada, not inside as some people are alluding to here....

Not according to the post that said

"I had confirmation today that CNX Immi is moving the Visa Extensions/Reporting office to Promenada "next month"."

You will note it says visa extension/reporting office to, not in the general area. I presume they mean the permission to stay one more year and the 90 day plus 30 day extensions. Time will tell.

[kaptainrob]

I had confirmation today that CNX Immi is moving the Visa Extensions/Reporting office to Promenada "next month".

Please do tell us who provided the confirmation. Thanks.

An RTP/Tor Mor officer .... one with loads of spaghetti adorning his dress uniform.

[koosdeboer]

It's not a Polish company, it's a Dutch company

[WorkingTourist]

It's not a Polish company, it's a Dutch company

You’re right, it’s a Dutch company which started (in the 1990s) developing retail and office space in Poland and still seems to have a heavy focus on Poland, but recently did one project in Chiang Mai and has one underway in Saigon.

The developer’s site: http://www.eccrealestate.com/

[chiang mai]

I had confirmation today that CNX Immi is moving the Visa Extensions/Reporting office to Promenada "next month".

Please do tell us who provided the confirmation. Thanks.

An RTP/Tor Mor officer .... one with loads of spaghetti adorning his dress uniform.

I've heard confirmation of this also, it's pointless to identify the source for obvious reasons.

[chiangmaiexpat]

The Promenada was doomed from the beginning. With three new malls opening in the city at roughly the same time, it was clear that not all of them will make it. Maya has prime location, and CenFes has limitless financial backing, experience in the Thai market, and established vendor relations.

However, in the end it's always the consumer who decides.

And the consumers in Chiang Mai prefer a boring Central clone with the same franchisees as everywhere else over an innovative mall with good architecture and a distinct offering and facilities.

The halls were empty since day one.

Cheers, CM-Expat

[Ulysses G.]

The Promenada was doomed from the beginning. With three new malls opening in the city at roughly the same time, it was clear that not all of them will make it.

This has been my thinking since they were all announced.

[mascarabertha]

The Promenada was doomed from the beginning. With three new malls opening in the city at roughly the same time, it was clear that not all of them will make it. Maya has prime location, and CenFes has limitless financial backing, experience in the Thai market, and established vendor relations.

However, in the end it's always the consumer who decides.

And the consumers in Chiang Mai prefer a boring Central clone with the same franchisees as everywhere else over an innovative mall with good architecture and a distinct offering and facilities.

The halls were empty since day one.

Cheers, CM-Expat

good observation and might I add cool abbreviations cenfes and mai will make it but prom might not

[Johpa]

so the mall owner can only inflate the income from renting out floorspace, which is easy to audit, and if all the business close, because the mall sees so little traffic, there is no rental income to inflate.

So again, the theory makes absolutely no sense.

I am not one suggesting that the owners of Promenada are laundering money. But you clearly lack imagination. One could fill a storefront or mall kiosk with empty boxes, or simply little inventory, and hire a single clerk to sit around doing little while showing a handsome rent that would have a proper paper trail that would not raise an auditor's eyebrow. Not to mention that mall tenants in Thailand often come and go within a single fiscal year. Your imagination also fails in conceiving the sums of money that need to be laundered within the Kingdom and a single mall does not begin to fill that need. But I agree that there are less conspicuous options available up north such as the multitudes of resorts along the Samoeng Loop road that never seem to have guests other than the 10 days around New Years and during Chinese New Year.

[NancyL]

The Promenada was doomed from the beginning. With three new malls opening in the city at roughly the same time, it was clear that not all of them will make it. Maya has prime location, and CenFes has limitless financial backing, experience in the Thai market, and established vendor relations.

However, in the end it's always the consumer who decides.

And the consumers in Chiang Mai prefer a boring Central clone with the same franchisees as everywhere else over an innovative mall with good architecture and a distinct offering and facilities.

The halls were empty since day one.

Cheers, CM-Expat

Yeah, but wouldn't Chiang Mai Immigration be one innovative tenant? But, it remains to be seen if they're really going to bring all their services over to The Prom and not just turn it into a satellite office for white people similar to what they have over on the other side of the road -- i.e. a place where we can go to do 90 day reports and get Cert. of Residency. (Hmm. There's no "yawning" emoticon)

[peterjackson]

a satellite office for white people similar to what they have over on the other side of the road -- i.e. a place where we can go to do 90 day reports and get Cert. of Residency.

I hadn't realised Chiang Mai Immigration had a segregation policy on issuing Cert. Of Residency. As a non-white, where do you have to go in Chiang Mai to get a Cert. Of Residency?

[NancyL]

They have the Burmese people over on the other side of the road, across from Promenada.

And yes, I refuse to use the "f-word" to self describe foreigners. See how racist it sounds when I use to term describe "us white people" We should stop referring to ourselves using the f-word.

[peterjackson]

Burmese is a nationality, White is a color/colour. Would you care to answer my question based on your post.

Where do non-white people obtain their Cert. Of Residency in Chiang Mai?

[northernjohn]

The Promenada was doomed from the beginning. With three new malls opening in the city at roughly the same time, it was clear that not all of them will make it. Maya has prime location, and CenFes has limitless financial backing, experience in the Thai market, and established vendor relations.

However, in the end it's always the consumer who decides.

And the consumers in Chiang Mai prefer a boring Central clone with the same franchisees as everywhere else over an innovative mall with good architecture and a distinct offering and facilities.

The halls were empty since day one.

Cheers, CM-Expat

I tend to believe location is the big problem. Maya is no competition for them. Central Festival although just a big box has a much larger population near it.

I still maintain talk to the si fi theater organization and get them to bring in movies that aren't playing in the other three malls put in a decent bowling alley and possibly a modern kept up gym serviced by knowledgeable people. It won't work over night but it will slowly draw more people to the mall. Perhaps even go so far as to carry some of the small venders until things pick up.

[Dante99]

so the mall owner can only inflate the income from renting out floorspace, which is easy to audit, and if all the business close, because the mall sees so little traffic, there is no rental income to inflate.

So again, the theory makes absolutely no sense.

I am not one suggesting that the owners of Promenada are laundering money. But you clearly lack imagination. One could fill a storefront or mall kiosk with empty boxes, or simply little inventory, and hire a single clerk to sit around doing little while showing a handsome rent that would have a proper paper trail that would not raise an auditor's eyebrow. Not to mention that mall tenants in Thailand often come and go within a single fiscal year. Your imagination also fails in conceiving the sums of money that need to be laundered within the Kingdom and a single mall does not begin to fill that need. But I agree that there are less conspicuous options available up north such as the multitudes of resorts along the Samoeng Loop road that never seem to have guests other than the 10 days around New Years and during Chinese New Year.

Very clearly.

[Puwa]

The moderators should pluck out all the posts on laundering money and put them in a new thread for those interested in the topic. There's no place for them here and they make a groundless insinuation about the mall in question. They are pretty funny, though.