WorkingTourist Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Re laundering: Who's gonna audit the place, the IRS? Remember, this here's Thailand, not Kansas. Dang, they probably washed millions just building the place. If there is suspicion of money laundering then it would be Thailand’s Anti-Money Laundering Office. But the idea of building a multi-billion baht mall to launder money seems ridiculous, and in the building process itself, only the construction companies have income (to be inflated to hide money from illegal activity), but the origin of this income is easy to track, as it’s all paid by a single entity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert24 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Do you have any evidence or specific observations that leads you to believe that Dutch investor built this mall for money laundering purposes or is this just a conspiracy theory? I don't like people making allegations without giving any justifications for it. Also thinking about it. So if they really wanted to "clean" some proceeds from criminal activities, would you really build such a big mall which is probably very hard to sell and even if you do, all transactions are very clearly traceable? Personally I doubt it, but please share with me your case for this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elektrified Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Do you have any evidence or specific observations that leads you to believe that Dutch investor built this mall for money laundering purposes or is this just a conspiracy theory? I don't like people making allegations without giving any justifications for it. Also thinking about it. So if they really wanted to "clean" some proceeds from criminal activities, would you really build such a big mall which is probably very hard to sell and even if you do, all transactions are very clearly traceable? Personally I doubt it, but please share with me your case for this. He/she has no evidence and it's somewhat libelous/defamatory to even make the allegation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangmai Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 They must be showing the Miami Vice reruns again on WeTV; never fails. And for the third time, the company is ECC, with ticker symbol PL (for Pole Land) on the Warsaw Exchang). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernjohn Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Do you have any evidence or specific observations that leads you to believe that Dutch investor built this mall for money laundering purposes or is this just a conspiracy theory? I don't like people making allegations without giving any justifications for it. Also thinking about it. So if they really wanted to "clean" some proceeds from criminal activities, would you really build such a big mall which is probably very hard to sell and even if you do, all transactions are very clearly traceable? Personally I doubt it, but please share with me your case for this. I myself proposed it as a possibility. If I remember correctly there was a financial crisis in the middle of the construction . My statement was just a possibility. Perhaps some one else made a direct accusation I don't know and would also disagree with it. I see no problem in looking at all the possibilities. So far all we have is opinions based on IF. We still have no idea of what the planning was when it was first proposed. I personally think they had taken a long view on the whole thing depending more on future growth in the area. But there again is just an opinion the same as every one else on this thread other than the ones that say they need more customers. That is a given fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hml367 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 If you are not sure what defamation, libel, etc., look at the forum rules. Seems easy to understand to me. Even if true, apparently such inferrance of possibilities can cause a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berkshire Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The parent company is Polish...http://www.eccrealestate.com/en/0/23/27/about_us.html Interesting. I went to their grand opening and met the GM guy, a farang. But the Promenada in that link said it was "delivered" in 2005. If I recall, the grand opening of the Promenada CM was in July 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert24 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The parent company is Polish...http://www.eccrealestate.com/en/0/23/27/about_us.html Interesting. I went to their grand opening and met the GM guy, a farang. But the Promenada in that link said it was "delivered" in 2005. If I recall, the grand opening of the Promenada CM was in July 2013. there are 2 promenada malls by this company. One in Warsaw and one in Chiang Mai. The one in Warsaw, their flagship, was opened in 2005 and the one in Chiang Mai in Q3 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherOneAmerican Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Do you have any evidence or specific observations that leads you to believe that Dutch investor built this mall for money laundering purposes or is this just a conspiracy theory? I don't like people making allegations without giving any justifications for it. Also thinking about it. So if they really wanted to "clean" some proceeds from criminal activities, would you really build such a big mall which is probably very hard to sell and even if you do, all transactions are very clearly traceable? Personally I doubt it, but please share with me your case for this. Money laundering ....... You have 1B in drugs money. Borrow 1B from bank using land as security. Buy land for 1B, create legit construction company, build for .5B but charge 1B. You now have a legit 0.5B profits in a legit construction company. Bank repossessed failed land and building. Your 1B drugs, is now 0.5B construction profits. Bank has their money back. Everyone happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo the Face Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Wasn't there an article in City Life , where Pim interviewed an officer of the parent company? This was about a year or so ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangmai Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 that must be why it is quite difficult to get more than 50% LTV on land, and that is if it is improved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert24 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Do you have any evidence or specific observations that leads you to believe that Dutch investor built this mall for money laundering purposes or is this just a conspiracy theory? I don't like people making allegations without giving any justifications for it. Also thinking about it. So if they really wanted to "clean" some proceeds from criminal activities, would you really build such a big mall which is probably very hard to sell and even if you do, all transactions are very clearly traceable? Personally I doubt it, but please share with me your case for this. Money laundering ....... You have 1B in drugs money. Borrow 1B from bank using land as security. Buy land for 1B, create legit construction company, build for .5B but charge 1B. You now have a legit 0.5B profits in a legit construction company. Bank repossessed failed land and building. Your 1B drugs, is now 0.5B construction profits. Bank has their money back. Everyone happy. that's pure fantasy from yourself, you have no idea what due dilligence banks are doing these days. and by the way did you see any bank repossessing land? you guys have to be more careful about what rumours you are spreading about businesses that are active in Thailand. One day they may go after you. Just because you are posting anonymous doesn't mean you can write everything you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernjohn Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Do you have any evidence or specific observations that leads you to believe that Dutch investor built this mall for money laundering purposes or is this just a conspiracy theory? I don't like people making allegations without giving any justifications for it. Also thinking about it. So if they really wanted to "clean" some proceeds from criminal activities, would you really build such a big mall which is probably very hard to sell and even if you do, all transactions are very clearly traceable? Personally I doubt it, but please share with me your case for this. Money laundering ....... You have 1B in drugs money. Borrow 1B from bank using land as security. Buy land for 1B, create legit construction company, build for .5B but charge 1B. You now have a legit 0.5B profits in a legit construction company. Bank repossessed failed land and building. Your 1B drugs, is now 0.5B construction profits. Bank has their money back. Everyone happy. that's pure fantasy from yourself, you have no idea what due dilligence banks are doing these days. and by the way did you see any bank repossessing land? you guys have to be more careful about what rumours you are spreading about businesses that are active in Thailand. One day they may go after you. Just because you are posting anonymous doesn't mean you can write everything you want. I was in my bank Siam commercial and asked about repossessions. They pointed me over to another office in the bank. I take that to mean yes they do repossess. Not likely to be the case here but can not really say what is happening. No one so far has been able to come up with the history just current situation absolutely no idea of what knowledge and willingness they had when they started the project. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherOneAmerican Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 you guys have to be more careful about what rumours you are spreading about businesses that are active in Thailand. One day they may go after you. Just because you are posting anonymous doesn't mean you can write everything you want. You asked how anyone could launder money this way, I explained it to you. Have no idea about this particular property, only know how to launder using construction and land purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JomtienEats Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 I'm still a fan of relocating all of the Loi Kroh bars to Promenda!....and perhaps a chunk of the karoke bars as well Aircon, lighting, good food available, parking (undercover for bikes no less when it rains), no wandering LBs, reduction in criticism of the Loi Kroh street, bigger bars, better furniture and seating, large flat screen TVs, tuk tuk, tour buses and taxi ranks, perhaps a medical practice, neon neon neon, fully utilize the alfresco areas, decent toilets, could cater for Malaysian/Koreans/Japanese/Chinese visitors, ATMs, .plenty of places to launch lanterns/fireworks at festivals/parties, clean, no hawkers, easy obstacle free walking from one venue to another ....a veritable tourist Mecca Done properly would sh*t on Soi Cowboy, Patpong etc but alas with current regime do not see this as a happening....maybe my dream complex name of Thaksinland is simply going to far. I have a dream....... This is a really good idea, but a little before its time unfortunately. Public morality would make it politically impossible. Thailand, rather than owning its reputation and capitalizing on it, is determined to try to shake it off. I anticipate continued announcements of initiaves to convert Pattaya into the world's premier family destination. I think that leaves us with the plausible casino idea. I imagine it would be very popular with the Chinese market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RikDao Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 You're not meant to know who's doing it, are you? It's not, ahem, legal. But it's a way to make money, you gotta pay to have your laundering done. Just walk outside and look around and you'll see it: Thais trying to make a buck! Don't blame them, actually. And no, ain't been here too long, but find the place fascinating. Learning about the place, trying to understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WorkingTourist Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Money laundering ....... You have 1B in drugs money. Which would be in cash, as they are not yet “in the system” (i.e. not yet laundered). Borrow 1B from bank using land as security. Buy land for 1B, create legit construction company, build for .5B but charge 1B. Yeah, no-one will find it suspicious when your construction company wants to deposit a billion in cash because they have an invoice… Btw: With the actual company here being Polish and contracting in Thailand, would they have smuggled the 3 billions in cash from Poland to Thailand? You now have a legit 0.5B profits in a legit construction company. Bank repossessed failed land and building. Your 1B drugs, is now 0.5B construction profits. Bank has their money back. Everyone happy. At least the Anti-Money Laundering Office will be happy, as they have an easy case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLT Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 UPDATE: Promenada, Wednesday 14th 1.30pm - apart from the small food court outside / opposite Rimping where a dozen or so customers were enjoying lunch, it was pretty much as I described before, virtually empty on both floors, on both sides with only a few people (customers) wandering aimlessly. I did say originally that my remarks were confined to the lack of customers on weekdays, with weekends busier but not exceptionally so compared to the Promenada's competitors. I didn't envisage when I started this thread that it would run to seven pages and +8,000 views! However, approximately 5 of those pages are filled with nonsense and off-topic comments. Nevertheless, the other two two pages of remarks are interesting and rewarding. Comments (in my opinion) worthy of note include: Encourage occupancy by the larger retailers (a la Airport Plaza, Maya and Central Festival Malls) to attract more customers. Chinese / Korean takeover and then redesign the building to accommodate facilties for children and their mothers A couple of people said that they liked and wanted the Promenda to remain empty and quiet because it made for easy parking and quick access to Rimping and the various banks Many people commented on the various restaurants which were mainly busy after 5pm and at weekends People were also complimentary about the music and entertainment at night (but as with restaurants, I don't see how this generates business in the stores during the weekdays) Someone confirmed it cost 3.1 billion baht to build the Promenada and someone else said it's a "down the line" project meaning (I think) it's not expected to be profitable in the near future but perhaps in 10, 20 or 30 years time. That (to me) just doesn't seem right, even if there are a few condos being built nearby. Having that sort of money "on hold" as it were for those lengths of time, seems less like an investment and more like a high-risk gamble. Among the other noteworthy (if somewhat bizarre) comments were: Turn the building over, or rent space to CM Immigration Redevelop the Promenada as an adult entertainment area transferring Loi Kroh Road there, complete with bars, massage parlours etc. NB: I foresee a couple of probems 1) Won't that mean that Loi Kroh road becomes devoid of business? 2) The Promenada is out of town, how will the customers get there and back home? 3) I'm not sure the Promenada is open after 11pm. Isn't that when Loi Kroh Road is waking up? But of course (and as you might expect!) several pages and threads were devoted to fantastical conspircay theories and / or other threads that were completely off-topic (Yes, YOU said it!): A debate about whether Chiang Mai was or was not Thailand's 2nd biggest city Establishing that the parent company is Polish Numerous comparisons with Kad San Kaew Rik Dao thread started a debate about "money laundering" whcih sustained itself over 5 pages as various "experts" felt it necessary to give their opinions (one even proposing that a well-know optical chain was at the bottom of it all!) An interntional fiscal debate initiated by a comment concenring "puts and calls". This carried over 3 pages expanding into various interest rates in SE Asia, Mexico and the USA which included the following comment from Rik Dao "Enough Dems voted against ripping the b@#%s out of Dodd-Frank last week so that it didn't pass, but the Repubs will try again soon, and they'll keep trying until they achieve what the banksters have paid (or blackmailed) them to do." ...Whoa, wait a minute Rik dao, what does this have to do with the Promenada?! Only 3 mentions of Thaksin or the name Shinawatr and a theory that because Chiang Mai was in the north and the seat of the goverment being in BKK it's obviously that the intention is to let the area (CM) become run-down (Is that starting with the Promenada?) Thanks for all the comments (good, bad, or just plain bonkers!). Now I'm happy to fade once again into obscurity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangmai Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 and then we actually had someone write 350 words to rehash the worthless posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaamNaam Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Yawn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
northernjohn Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 and then we actually had someone write 350 words to rehash the worthless posts. You think that is bad how about some one taking the time to count the words? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonzo the Face Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 and then we actually had someone write 350 words to rehash the worthless posts. You think that is bad how about some one taking the time to count the words? usually a newbie trying to run up their post count by commenting on any and all topics..... must be like a home stay in , never straying from their new toy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cholmondley Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 To those who say this a long term project and numbers will pick up the future, I would ask what are the retailers (especially the small ones) meant to do in the meantime? Run at a loss so as to support the developer? If I was going to rent a retail unit in a mall I would need decent footfall now, not promised to come about in 5 or 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaamNaam Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 It's been fairly busy the last few times I've been. Getting busier anyway. It's not going anywhere. lol...zzzzzz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loptr Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Timing is everything...along with location...in a retail type business... Customer numbers are down in most of Thailand... Could be years...if ever...they get back to 2012-2013 tourist numbers... Tourist baht and ex-pat baht filter down thru Thai economy... Volume of baht transactions are down significantly from previous years... All true But was the Promenada built for tourists in the location it is in I don't think they figure on a large tourist trade. I think they have their eye on the future. As the area grows it will be the main center for shopping. Defiantly a down the line project. Have you noticed the construction going on in San Kamphaeng, or all the gated communities in the area? Lots of well-heeled Thais in that part of town, along with lots on farang, including myself... I know, I see them every day as I am in Promenada at least once and often twice a day... The 69 baht breakfast at Rimping is hard to pass up, plus I can drive there faster than I could make it myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anon467848 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Timing is everything...along with location...in a retail type business... Customer numbers are down in most of Thailand... Could be years...if ever...they get back to 2012-2013 tourist numbers... Tourist baht and ex-pat baht filter down thru Thai economy... Volume of baht transactions are down significantly from previous years... All true But was the Promenada built for tourists in the location it is in I don't think they figure on a large tourist trade. I think they have their eye on the future. As the area grows it will be the main center for shopping. Defiantly a down the line project. Have you noticed the construction going on in San Kamphaeng, or all the gated communities in the area? Lots of well-heeled Thais in that part of town, along with lots on farang, including myself... I know, I see them every day as I am in Promenada at least once and often twice a day... The 69 baht breakfast at Rimping is hard to pass up, plus I can drive there faster than I could make it myself... Rimping (Le Bisto) are doing a 3 course special for 120 baht (from 11-4 pm). I tried it yesterday and it was okay, choice of 4 starters, 8 main courses, and 3 desserts.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worgeordie Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 What Chiang Mai needs is another Mall, build it and they will come regards Worgeordie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaamNaam Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 What Chiang Mai needs is another Mall, build it and they will come regards Worgeordie Words fail me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangmai Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Timing is everything...along with location...in a retail type business... Customer numbers are down in most of Thailand... Could be years...if ever...they get back to 2012-2013 tourist numbers... Tourist baht and ex-pat baht filter down thru Thai economy... Volume of baht transactions are down significantly from previous years... All true But was the Promenada built for tourists in the location it is in I don't think they figure on a large tourist trade. I think they have their eye on the future. As the area grows it will be the main center for shopping. Defiantly a down the line project. Have you noticed the construction going on in San Kamphaeng, or all the gated communities in the area? Lots of well-heeled Thais in that part of town, along with lots on farang, including myself... I know, I see them every day as I am in Promenada at least once and often twice a day... The 69 baht breakfast at Rimping is hard to pass up, plus I can drive there faster than I could make it myself... How can people, who wear shoes less than Mexicans, be considered well heeled? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elektrified Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 Timing is everything...along with location...in a retail type business... Customer numbers are down in most of Thailand... Could be years...if ever...they get back to 2012-2013 tourist numbers... Tourist baht and ex-pat baht filter down thru Thai economy... Volume of baht transactions are down significantly from previous years... All true But was the Promenada built for tourists in the location it is in I don't think they figure on a large tourist trade. I think they have their eye on the future. As the area grows it will be the main center for shopping. Defiantly a down the line project. Have you noticed the construction going on in San Kamphaeng, or all the gated communities in the area? Lots of well-heeled Thais in that part of town, along with lots on farang, including myself... I know, I see them every day as I am in Promenada at least once and often twice a day... The 69 baht breakfast at Rimping is hard to pass up, plus I can drive there faster than I could make it myself... How can people, who wear shoes less than Mexicans, be considered well heeled? Rather racist comment. Obviously you haven't spent much time in Bangkok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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