Tiger Temple in chaos

[cumgranosalum]

Bad press or not, how would a Christian feel if some of his own military burst into his church and trampled on a few priests and congregation seated in peaceful protest?

[Local Drunk]

This whole thing seems to be a mess - the authorities do not seem properly equipped or motivated and there seems to be a distinct lack of expertise on the ground or planning for the future of the animals.

Their are some very good people in the National Parks Service and I know a few of them... then there are some very bad ones. Take for example the hundred Hornbills that were confiscated at the temple recently. I think there about 14 different types in Thailand. Some are endangered, some are threatened and some are of least concern. Now, if your a birder, where do you go to see birds? National Parks. If you're trapping birds, where do you go to do it? Uh huh... And who is allowing this to happen? Even better, what does a temple do with a hundred Hornbills and who did they get them from?

You know.... I really hate this particular temple and what it means to wildlife.

[Local Drunk]

Bad press or not, how would a Christian feel if some of his own military burst into his church and trampled on a few priests and congregation seated in peaceful protest?

Feelings aren't the issue here. The animals are. But if you're asking me... I'd throw the Christians to the lions.

[Wilsonandson]

All owners of zoos or exotic animals are afraid now. Why do we need zoos and other places that look after wild endangered animals anyway. Who needs a gorilla in a zoo in a shopping mall? Send it back to the Congo in Africa. Let the bengal tigers go back to Bengal. Let the sun bears return to Indonesia. Ban the street shows that exploit animals such as monkeys and elephants, let them go back to Lop Buri and Chaing Mai. We don't need these shows or attractions. We can see these animals on tv and on our computers, who needs to see wild animals in real life? Well done current government for making life in Thailand so much more vibrant and interesting. To better my local community and join in with your animal thoughfulness and helpful teachings I shall be releasing all the endangered animals in my neighbourhood. Wild birds in cages, wild fish trapped in garden ponds, wild endangered tortoises, no thanks needed just doing my bit towards helping the environment.

[cumgranosalum]

All owners of zoos or exotic animals are afraid now. Why do we need zoos and other places that look after wild endangered animals anyway. Who needs a gorilla in a zoo in a shopping mall? Send it back to the Congo in Africa. Let the bengal tigers go back to Bengal. Let the sun bears return to Indonesia. Ban the street shows that exploit animals such as monkeys and elephants, let them go back to Lop Buri and Chaing Mai. We don't need these shows or attractions. We can see these animals on tv and on our computers, who needs to see wild animals in real life? Well done current government for making life in Thailand so much more vibrant and interesting. To better my local community and join in with your animal thoughfulness and helpful teachings I shall be releasing all the endangered animals in my neighbourhood. Wild birds in cages, wild fish trapped in garden ponds, wild endangered tortoises, no thanks needed just doing my bit towards helping the environment.

Whilst I agree with the overall sentiment, let's get one thing clear - not one single tiger from the temple can EVER be released back into the wild.....ever!

[lvr181]

Come judgment day and these so called monks will face their karma.

Judgement day for these "thugs in frocks" should be NOW - not some mystical time and place in the future!

I sometimes think that "karma" is an excuse for not dealing with a problem now

[Local Drunk]

All owners of zoos or exotic animals are afraid now. Why do we need zoos and other places that look after wild endangered animals anyway. Who needs a gorilla in a zoo in a shopping mall? Send it back to the Congo in Africa. Let the bengal tigers go back to Bengal. Let the sun bears return to Indonesia. Ban the street shows that exploit animals such as monkeys and elephants, let them go back to Lop Buri and Chaing Mai. We don't need these shows or attractions. We can see these animals on tv and on our computers, who needs to see wild animals in real life? Well done current government for making life in Thailand so much more vibrant and interesting. To better my local community and join in with your animal thoughfulness and helpful teachings I shall be releasing all the endangered animals in my neighbourhood. Wild birds in cages, wild fish trapped in garden ponds, wild endangered tortoises, no thanks needed just doing my bit towards helping the environment.

Whilst I agree with the overall sentiment, let's get one thing clear - not one single tiger from the temple can EVER be released back into the wild.....ever!

Yeah... you are right about that.

[MaeJoMTB]

It has been known for years that this place has been trafficking tigers and other wildlife and gets away with it because it is a temple, but monks are not above the law. The abbot can often be seen in his chauffeur driven merc. The Thai Buddhist authorities should start doing more to clean up the image of Buddhist temples and expel more monks. More and more abbots are more interested in money than Buddhism. Local abbot here on Phuket is kicking out the dogs that have lived there for years because he says interferes with his car parking enterprise. Temple is opposite the weekend market.

Quite a lot of Thai people are above the law.

Seems reasonable that monks are part of that group.

[PeCeDe]

While not ignoring the seriousness of the subject, it just occurred to me that maybe the Bears TR 3 Visas were expired and they over stayed.

[Acharn]

I've been trying to figure out why none of the news stories I've seen have said what the abbot's reasons are for a. not allowing officials to inspect the premises, b. not obeying a court order, and c. blocking the officials from the forestry department or wherever they're from. Is this some kind of power play by some official in the forestry department to reduce the income of the temple? There are things going on here we're not being told about.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Acharn

[cumgranosalum]

This whole thing seems to be a mess - the authorities do not seem properly equipped or motivated and there seems to be a distinct lack of expertise on the ground or planning for the future of the animals.

Their are some very good people in the National Parks Service and I know a few of them... then there are some very bad ones. Take for example the hundred Hornbills that were confiscated at the temple recently. I think there about 14 different types in Thailand. Some are endangered, some are threatened and some are of least concern. Now, if your a birder, where do you go to see birds? National Parks. If you're trapping birds, where do you go to do it? Uh huh... And who is allowing this to happen? Even better, what does a temple do with a hundred Hornbills and who did they get them from?

You know.... I really hate this particular temple and what it means to wildlife.

I get the impression that these raids are organised by folk who want to make it their own personal thing - the rank abd file may be willing and able but those organising cannot.......they NEED ASSISTANCE from experts and international organisations - not a joint lack of cooperation between some nabobs in the Army and some in the NP service - this has all the hallmarks of a piecemeal, disorganised debacle.

It can't simply be a matter of removing animals, what is needed instead is a regime change imposed on the temple where the monks (who wish to continue) are give the opportunity to work withe the animals under the orders of a true wildlife conservation expert who can start to re-organise the place and distribute the animals elsewhere as and when it is appropriate.

my overall feeling about this is that it doesn't have the animals interests at heart, it has more to do with using the law as a weapon in some grudge match.

[cumgranosalum]

I've been trying to figure out why none of the news stories I've seen have said what the abbot's reasons are for (a) not allowing officials to inspect the premises, ( not obeying a court order, and © blocking the officials from the forestry department or wherever they're from. Is this some kind of power play by some official in the forestry department to reduce the income of the temple? There are things going on here we're not being told about.

Absolutely.....my guess is the Abbot is planing a quick trip to Bkk to sort the matter out....and it will all go away. (although he seems to have done that last time but it all came back again......???

[Wilsonandson]

Animals have rights too. Dr Doolittle can talk to the animals. A chimpanzee can speak to us in sign language. The first living being in space was a monkey. A pig in America can play tic tac to on the computer. Dolphins are used by the American military to defuse mines and not just animals. There is inteligent plant life also. A fungus in America is the oldest living thing at 5,000 years old. I wonder what the 300 or so tigers kept by the 100 or so monks are saying to each other? "I like it here at the temple", "Me too, but the worlds a different place these days", "Yeah, everyones gone all Al Gore", "Yeah, oh well, this sanctuary might have better looking female tigers", "True, you got to look on the bright side".

[cumgranosalum]

It has been known for years that this place has been trafficking tigers and other wildlife and gets away with it because it is a temple, but monks are not above the law. The abbot can often be seen in his chauffeur driven merc. The Thai Buddhist authorities should start doing more to clean up the image of Buddhist temples and expel more monks. More and more abbots are more interested in money than Buddhism. Local abbot here on Phuket is kicking out the dogs that have lived there for years because he says interferes with his car parking enterprise. Temple is opposite the weekend market.

Quite a lot of Thai people are above the law.

Seems reasonable that monks are part of that group.

Temples seem to be difficult places to get someone out of if they are suspected of breaking the law.

Post a coup it is quite common in Thailand for high-ranking politicians/generals etc. to suddenly "get the call" and ordain for a period until the furore has died down.....

[Acharn]

... A chimpanzee can speak to us in sign language.

Well, no, they can't, really. The people who spent forty years trying to make that work finally had to admit that the animals weren't communicating in any meaningful sense of the word. I've always liked the requirement one scientist said would have to be met; was it Stephen Jay Gould? "I'll believe they are communicating when one of them says, "my father was poor but honest," and I'm convinced he knows what it means."

Edited April 3, 2015 by Acharn

[Wilsonandson]

Chinese tradditional medicine uses the Tiger's penis as a love potion. Bears gall bladders are also highly prized. so maybe there is a Chinese stolen to order link. I have tried to research about what the cost of a tigers penis is but come to no avail, please reveal if one knows the price. Also if anyone has eaten a tigers penis what was it like? Salty? Sweet? and any other facts on the size and how its prepared, etc...

[Mr Somtam]

Release the bears and tigers, put the monks in their cages... It's not that hard!

[cumgranosalum]

Animals have rights too. Dr Doolittle can talk to the animals. A chimpanzee can speak to us in sign language. The first living being in space was a monkey. A pig in America can play tic tac to on the computer. Dolphins are used by the American military to defuse mines and not just animals. There is inteligent plant life also. A fungus in America is the oldest living thing at 5,000 years old. I wonder what the 300 or so tigers kept by the 100 or so monks are saying to each other? "I like it here at the temple", "Me too, but the worlds a different place these days", "Yeah, everyones gone all Al Gore", "Yeah, oh well, this sanctuary might have better looking female tigers", "True, you got to look on the bright side".

• first animal in space was a dog.
• Dolphins can detect but not disarm mines
• the pig was a con
• Dolittle is fictional
• "It is now generally accepted that Apes can learn to sign and are able to communicate with humans. However, it is disputed as to whether they can form syntax to manipulate such signs"
• Plants do not have a brain or neuronal network - therefore one has to re-define what one means by intelligence.\
• Many species of tree are estimated to be over 5000 years old Yew and pines in particular and various prganisms are considered to be "immortal" it is just changes in environment that kills them.
• there are 146 tigers at the Temple.
• anthropomorphism is most certainly not a fruitful way of looking at animal welfare.
• Conservation science pre-dates Al gore by decades even centuries...

I still don't see what any of your inaccurate postulations have to do with the situation at the temple.

[cumgranosalum]

Chinese tradditional medicine uses the Tiger's penis as a love potion. Bears gall bladders are also highly prized. so maybe there is a Chinese stolen to order link. I have tried to research about what the cost of a tigers penis is but come to no avail, please reveal if one knows the price. Also if anyone has eaten a tigers penis what was it like? Salty? Sweet? and any other facts on the size and how its prepared, etc...

there has been plenty written on the place the temple allegedly plays in the endangered species trade and there are maps showing where and how the products go. Why not check it out some before making any further fatuous comments. it's not big and it's not lever but most certainly devoid of wit.

[MobileContent]

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Bad press or not, how would a Christian feel if some of his own military burst into his church and trampled on a few priests and congregation seated in peaceful protest?

If the priests hold tigers and bears without a permit, who cares.

BTW I have never seen a monastery with hundreds of priests.

Lets get to the point. In our village we have 3 monks. 1 Monks in his 60's and lives next to his sister house (no problem about that). Another 2 monks in the early 20's that are not even able to pray some simple sansikrit.

The Monk-hood in Thailand is a mess. The guys with the brown robe some how I hold higher but many monks in the orange robes are clowns. Here in Isaan most people travel on dangerous buses but you see the monks always on the planes alnost daily to a trip to Bangkok from Udon or Sakon Nakhon.

A few days ago I saw when the laymen bought two bottles Vodka but the monk pointed to it which bottle to take. Often I see monks making calls on the latest iPhone or Samsung Galaxy devices.

I am sure that all those young monks in the 20's and 30;s should be banned from any temples and they should first study for 10 years in the forest but then again if you want to becomes a monk you have to pay the 20-30,000 Baht to be accepted so the most wise person with no money would never be able to become a monk because he doesn't have that money.

As for the Tiger Temple we ban this tour on our website and have just signed an MOU of removing all tours including elephants etc from June 1, 2015.

I have not been to a temple for a long time but might go for a blessing in a forest wat before Songkran but the monks in my village get a middle finger as they are fake but Thai's still respect those rubbish monks.

[Wilsonandson]

It's not big then, the Tigers penis. It would stretch your wallet either to buy one I suppose. Thank you Cumetcetc for your advice. A dog the first living being in space. Heres the question, what was the dogs name? You'll be surfing for hours to find that one out, smiler.

[Acharn]

Tiger temple....??

This is Just another Criminal Enterprise Designed to enrich Hiding behind the Saffron Robe..

Its Nothing to do with Buddha or saving the poor Animals its all to do with what these "Monks" and I use that term Loosely.. truly worship the god of Baht..

Buddhism in Thailand is becoming so perverted

"Monks" getting Head from Women

"Monks" Getting massive amounts of personnel wealth

"Monks" Murdering

"Monks" Assaulting and fighting

"Monks" Stealing Donations

Criminals running away to become a "Monks"

Criminals committing crime and asking "Monks" to be Blessed and all is forgotten..

Pilgrims being Forced to make "Donations" when vising Sights of worship...

THIS IS NOT Buddhism this is the PERVERTED version that is called Buddhism here that worships god of Baht.

Excuse me, I am not by any means an expert on Buddhism, but from my reading there are many varieties and some of them are not much like the usual Western idea of what Buddhism is supposed to be. How is it that you know what has happened, what monks have done, what is condoned and what is condemned?

I have a little book titled, ""The Word of the Buddha." It is actually a collection of short quotations from some of the basic Suttas accepted by the Theravada Sect (which is the system most congenial to my thinking), and they were written out by a German who was trying to be a monk and needed the quotations to stay mindful of the most basic teachings in the Pali Canon. It was first published in German in 1906, by the way.

"What now is Right Speech? ... 1. Abstaining from Lying. Herein someone avoids lying and abstains from it. He speaks the truth, is devoted to the truth, reliable, worthy of confidence, not a deceiver of men. Being at a meeting, or amongst people, or in the midst of his relatives, or in a society, or in the king's court, and called upon and asked as witness to tell what he knows, he answers, if he knows nothing: 'I know nothing', and if he knows, he answers:'I know'; if he has seen nothing he answers:'I have seen nothing', and if he has seen, he answers:'I have seen'. Thus he never knowingly speaks a lie, either for the sake of his own advantage, or for the sake of another person's advantage, or for the sake of any advantage whatsoever. ... 4. Abstaining from Vain Talk. He avoids vain talk, and abstains from it. He speaks at the right time, in accordance with facts, speaks what is useful, speaks of the law and the discipline; his speech is like a treasure, uttered at the right moment, accompanied by arguments, moderate and full of sense.

This is called Right Speech."

Anguittara-Nikaya, Division X, Sutta 176.

Sorry for being so pompous, but I get tired of trash talk based on ignorance, delusion, and hatred.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Acharn

[JOC]

Chinese tradditional medicine uses the Tiger's penis as a love potion. Bears gall bladders are also highly prized. so maybe there is a Chinese stolen to order link. I have tried to research about what the cost of a tigers penis is but come to no avail, please reveal if one knows the price. Also if anyone has eaten a tigers penis what was it like? Salty? Sweet? and any other facts on the size and how its prepared, etc...

Wife complaining again??

[cumgranosalum]

Chinese tradditional medicine uses the Tiger's penis as a love potion. Bears gall bladders are also highly prized. so maybe there is a Chinese stolen to order link. I have tried to research about what the cost of a tigers penis is but come to no avail, please reveal if one knows the price. Also if anyone has eaten a tigers penis what was it like? Salty? Sweet? and any other facts on the size and how its prepared, etc...

post after post just shows you not only know nothing about this subject but care little about it and have little of value to bring to the discussion....it also shows you aren't very good at internet searches...

Edited April 3, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[scorecard]

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Just level the place, it is a mockery of Buddhism and Thai conservation efforts. A tiger parts factory and tourist trap.

And Plodprasob Suraswadee has had his fingers it this pie.

So do you imagine it's all in the name of conservation and animal rights and protection?

[cumgranosalum]

It's not big then, the Tigers penis. It would stretch your wallet either to buy one I suppose. Thank you Cumetcetc for your advice. A dog the first living being in space. Heres the question, what was the dogs name? You'll be surfing for hours to find that one out, smiler.

Laika - only you would actually need to Google something like that - we are getting familiar with you lack of googling abilities, but don't think that they apply to others -it's only you

Edited April 3, 2015 by cumgranosalum

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Chinese tradditional medicine uses the Tiger's penis as a love potion. Bears gall bladders are also highly prized. so maybe there is a Chinese stolen to order link. I have tried to research about what the cost of a tigers penis is but come to no avail, please reveal if one knows the price. Also if anyone has eaten a tigers penis what was it like? Salty? Sweet? and any other facts on the size and how its prepared, etc...

there has been plenty written on the place the temple allegedly plays in the endangered species trade and there are maps showing where and how the products go. Why not check it out some before making any further fatuous comments. it's not big and it's not lever but most certainly devoid of wit.

And Plodprasob Suraswadee has had his fingers in all of this.

So do you imagine it's all on the up and up for conservation, animal rights, animal protection?

[cumgranosalum]

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Bad press or not, how would a Christian feel if some of his own military burst into his church and trampled on a few priests and congregation seated in peaceful protest?

If the priests hold tigers and bears without a permit, who cares.

BTW I have never seen a monastery with hundreds of priests.

Lets get to the point. In our village we have 3 monks. 1 Monks in his 60's and lives next to his sister house (no problem about that). Another 2 monks in the early 20's that are not even able to pray some simple sansikrit.

The Monk-hood in Thailand is a mess. The guys with the brown robe some how I hold higher but many monks in the orange robes are clowns. Here in Isaan most people travel on dangerous buses but you see the monks always on the planes alnost daily to a trip to Bangkok from Udon or Sakon Nakhon.

A few days ago I saw when the laymen bought two bottles Vodka but the monk pointed to it which bottle to take. Often I see monks making calls on the latest iPhone or Samsung Galaxy devices.

I am sure that all those young monks in the 20's and 30;s should be banned from any temples and they should first study for 10 years in the forest but then again if you want to becomes a monk you have to pay the 20-30,000 Baht to be accepted so the most wise person with no money would never be able to become a monk because he doesn't have that money.

As for the Tiger Temple we ban this tour on our website and have just signed an MOU of removing all tours including elephants etc from June 1, 2015.

I have not been to a temple for a long time but might go for a blessing in a forest wat before Songkran but the monks in my village get a middle finger as they are fake but Thai's still respect those rubbish monks.

I think you seriously underestimate the influence of Buddhism in Thailand - fortunately the military - for all their guns and dictums - can see the folly of barging into Temples - rights or no rights.

What might be fruitful is to find out exactly when and where the Tiger Temple monks were ordained.

i remember several years ago that it was alleged the locals didn't like the temple monks as they weren't local themselves and and moved into the temple in order to set up the business.

[cumgranosalum]

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Chinese tradditional medicine uses the Tiger's penis as a love potion. Bears gall bladders are also highly prized. so maybe there is a Chinese stolen to order link. I have tried to research about what the cost of a tigers penis is but come to no avail, please reveal if one knows the price. Also if anyone has eaten a tigers penis what was it like? Salty? Sweet? and any other facts on the size and how its prepared, etc...

there has been plenty written on the place the temple allegedly plays in the endangered species trade and there are maps showing where and how the products go. Why not check it out some before making any further fatuous comments. it's not big and it's not lever but most certainly devoid of wit.

And Plodprasob Suraswadee has had his fingers in all of this.

So do you imagine it's all on the up and up for conservation, animal rights, animal protection?

I'm pretty sure that Plodprasop is "persona non grata" with the current regime. As a deputy PM under Yingluck, i'd be surprised to find he'd talked his way into the current regime.....or has he????

Edited April 3, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[Basil B]

Bad press or not, how would a Christian feel if some of his own military burst into his church and trampled on a few priests and congregation seated in peaceful protest?

I suppose if some crackpot vicar set up a cannabis farm in the crypt with a few hippies and barricaded the doors...

I would expect them to do their duty and arrest all.