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Tiger Temple in chaos


webfact

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Only me. Remember this character from Harry Enfield and chums. He would pop up and irritate his neighbours a bit like the people irritating the poor old monks down at the Tiger temple in beautiful Kanchanaburi. Which is a great place to visit if anyone is interested. Promoting Thailands attractions is bound to help the countries tourist trade. I am not Buddhist but realise that Thais who seek scandal in temples are doing this country a disservice. Behave yourselves. Respect your monks, stop the war on your own religion. I respect Buddhist temples and monks, the younger generation will see this and question their faith.

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This whole thing seems to be a mess - the authorities do not seem properly equipped or motivated and there seems to be a distinct lack of expertise on the ground or planning for the future of the animals.

Their are some very good people in the National Parks Service and I know a few of them... then there are some very bad ones. Take for example the hundred Hornbills that were confiscated at the temple recently. I think there about 14 different types in Thailand. Some are endangered, some are threatened and some are of least concern. Now, if your a birder, where do you go to see birds? National Parks. If you're trapping birds, where do you go to do it? Uh huh... And who is allowing this to happen? Even better, what does a temple do with a hundred Hornbills and who did they get them from?

You know.... I really hate this particular temple and what it means to wildlife.

I get the impression that these raids are organised by folk who want to make it their own personal thing - the rank abd file may be willing and able but those organising cannot.......they NEED ASSISTANCE from experts and international organisations - not a joint lack of cooperation between some nabobs in the Army and some in the NP service - this has all the hallmarks of a piecemeal, disorganised debacle.

It can't simply be a matter of removing animals, what is needed instead is a regime change imposed on the temple where the monks (who wish to continue) are give the opportunity to work withe the animals under the orders of a true wildlife conservation expert who can start to re-organise the place and distribute the animals elsewhere as and when it is appropriate.

my overall feeling about this is that it doesn't have the animals interests at heart, it has more to do with using the law as a weapon in some grudge match.

I read your post three times and I agreed with you up to the point of using the law as weapon in a grudge match. I'm wasn't sure of what you were saying... Clearly the monks are using the animals as a source of income... legal and otherwise. I'll try to explain what I'm thinking, and I think that you appreciate how complicated it is. The temple breaks the law. The powers that be try to enforce the law. The law gives the the powers that be the right to confiscate the animals as well as bring charges against those who have broken the law. Now that is a good thing up to the point were the animals are confiscated. This is an almost impossible situation. Where do 100 plus tigers go? Who is going to look after them? They have a fairly long life span maybe 20 to 25 years. Yeah you should be concerned, and thank you for bringing the point up. I still don't understand the grudge match.

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This whole thing seems to be a mess - the authorities do not seem properly equipped or motivated and there seems to be a distinct lack of expertise on the ground or planning for the future of the animals.

Their are some very good people in the National Parks Service and I know a few of them... then there are some very bad ones. Take for example the hundred Hornbills that were confiscated at the temple recently. I think there about 14 different types in Thailand. Some are endangered, some are threatened and some are of least concern. Now, if your a birder, where do you go to see birds? National Parks. If you're trapping birds, where do you go to do it? Uh huh... And who is allowing this to happen? Even better, what does a temple do with a hundred Hornbills and who did they get them from?

You know.... I really hate this particular temple and what it means to wildlife.

I get the impression that these raids are organised by folk who want to make it their own personal thing - the rank abd file may be willing and able but those organising cannot.......they NEED ASSISTANCE from experts and international organisations - not a joint lack of cooperation between some nabobs in the Army and some in the NP service - this has all the hallmarks of a piecemeal, disorganised debacle.

It can't simply be a matter of removing animals, what is needed instead is a regime change imposed on the temple where the monks (who wish to continue) are give the opportunity to work withe the animals under the orders of a true wildlife conservation expert who can start to re-organise the place and distribute the animals elsewhere as and when it is appropriate.

my overall feeling about this is that it doesn't have the animals interests at heart, it has more to do with using the law as a weapon in some grudge match.

I read your post three times and I agreed with you up to the point of using the law as weapon in a grudge match. I'm wasn't sure of what you were saying... Clearly the monks are using the animals as a source of income... legal and otherwise. I'll try to explain what I'm thinking, and I think that you appreciate how complicated it is. The temple breaks the law. The powers that be try to enforce the law. The law gives the the powers that be the right to confiscate the animals as well as bring charges against those who have broken the law. Now that is a good thing up to the point were the animals are confiscated. This is an almost impossible situation. Where do 100 plus tigers go? Who is going to look after them? They have a fairly long life span maybe 20 to 25 years. Yeah you should be concerned, and thank you for bringing the point up. I still don't understand the grudge match.

The temple appears to make a lot of money from having tigers.

The temple appears to have been outside the law one way or another for over a decade.

However, it would also appear that they have been "immune" to the attentions of the "authorities" - I would suggest that a possible reason for this would be that they have friends in high places........it looks now that either those friends no longer hold sway in high places or there has been a falling out between the teple and those how turned a blind eye.

Hence the grudge.

It would be a mistake to look at the "authorities" as having one single purpose or position, they are highly factionalised and it seems highly likely that the faction that supported the temple are now out of favour.

it certainly looks by the way the first raid was "dismissed" by the authorities that the temple still held the upper hand, but NOW with these secondary actions one has to wonder if there is some intra-departmental battle going on

however none of this should be misinterpreted as concern for the animals themselves, i think it is far more likely that people are concerned about power, money and their own skin.

In turn this means any action against the temple is more likely in my opinion to be aimed at damaging the Abbot than improving the lot of the animals e.g. stopping the breeding installing correct husbandry and ending the close interaction with the public.

Edited by cumgranosalum
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@ cumgranosalum

Thanks for you well reasoned response. I know that your interest as well as mine is in the best interests of the animals. I suppose that the temple has become the natural habitat for them. Shame isn't it. If it's their natural habitat, then let them have it then. Take the collars and chains off of them and put them on the Abbot.

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Chinese tradditional medicine uses the Tiger's penis as a love potion. Bears gall bladders are also highly prized. so maybe there is a Chinese stolen to order link. I have tried to research about what the cost of a tigers penis is but come to no avail, please reveal if one knows the price. Also if anyone has eaten a tigers penis what was it like? Salty? Sweet? and any other facts on the size and how its prepared, etc...

Your posting and your questions you want to be answered, make me feel unwell.

Disgusting! blink.png

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Total inability to manage and excessive abilities to lie cheat and bullshit.

If they do not have the required paperwork then remove the bears and anyone who interferes regardless of whether he is wearing saffron or not.

So many of these temples are just cash cows for the so called enlightened.

Missing tigers most probably sold. TIT.

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Buddhism is the official State-sponsored religion. Thailand's Head of State is required to be Buddhist. Buddhist ceremonies are prevalent in many government functions. Civil service employees are given paid sabbatical to become short-term monks.

If Thailand is going to move with the rest of Asia into the 21st century, it needs to change itself from a theocratic government to a secular government. It needs to terminate its Department of Religious Affairs that promotes and protects Buddhism. Buddhism needs to be treated equally with all the other religions in Thailand and that includes application of the rule of law against any illegal civil or criminal actions.

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Disgusting behaviour by the monks. Send in the army, arrest every single monk who tries to stop the removal of the animals, throw them in a dungeon somewhere and lose the key for a few months. And defrock the lot of them, especially the so called abbot.

Apparantly NO ONE in this country has any respect for the rule of law. And so, Thailand continues the downward spiral, only now under the self appointed dictator.

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I dont understand how tigers or other wild animals are part of the Buddhist religion? perhaps some one who knows more about Buddhism can explain it.

I think they are simply maintaining a zoo as a means of raising income.and as such should be governed by the same rules governing all zoos in Thailand.

or are Buddhist temples exempt from such rules?

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Totally agree with all the posts, this place is just a money making enterprise & has no place in a Thai temple pretending to offer animal welfare...

as for the missing tigers they're probably in a jar in China by now with the abbot nicely rewarded!

just one thing I'm confused about though:

Quote:

The three tigers are among seven Bengal tigers which the department under former director general Plodprasob Suraswadee seized from the temple in 2001 but left them under care of the temple after it promised to look after them.

The three missing tigers are 3-7 years of age

Even if the tigers were aged 1 year old in 2001 that would now make them aged 14 years, if my maths is correct or am I missing something ??

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and off course, those "monks" are sacred and cannot be touched, so they do what they want

that many criminals on the run, shave their head & put on some orange clothes to escape, well, you just have to accept that also, right ?

thainess

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"The monks sat on the front gate in front of the vehicle that carried the cage, blocking the officials to leave.

Negotiation for three hours ended with no success to convince the protesting monks to allow the vehicle to leave.

The deputy governor Boonyasopon Chantara-upai was called in to help negotiate in a second round but also was unsuccessful when the abbot refused to negotiate."

Don't negotiate any more.

Arrest them and gaol them.

When it comes to dealing with monks the police have no teeth - unlike when harassing farangs!

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Seems likely that the temple/abbot is involved in sales of tiger parts to China, which is despicable. But it raises an ethical issue of how to deal with it. If the tigers were taken away and put into some (genuine) sanctuary where they were protected from being slaughtered and sold to China, it would probably result in the extirpation of the few remaining wild tigers in Thailand, because the demand would remain but the supply from the "Tiger Temple" cut off, meaning the only remaining source would be wild tigers.

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Seems likely that the temple/abbot is involved in sales of tiger parts to China, which is despicable. But it raises an ethical issue of how to deal with it. If the tigers were taken away and put into some (genuine) sanctuary where they were protected from being slaughtered and sold to China, it would probably result in the extirpation of the few remaining wild tigers in Thailand, because the demand would remain but the supply from the "Tiger Temple" cut off, meaning the only remaining source would be wild tigers.

exalll, sadly I think the Temple if it is exploiting these animals is not preventing the slaughter of wild Tigers. It is just another source.

Edited by Oziex1
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Seems likely that the temple/abbot is involved in sales of tiger parts to China, which is despicable. But it raises an ethical issue of how to deal with it. If the tigers were taken away and put into some (genuine) sanctuary where they were protected from being slaughtered and sold to China, it would probably result in the extirpation of the few remaining wild tigers in Thailand, because the demand would remain but the supply from the "Tiger Temple" cut off, meaning the only remaining source would be wild tigers.

exalll, sadly I think the Temple if it is exploiting these animals is not preventing the slaughter of wild Tigers. It is just another source.

Agreed - I am sure wild tigers are still poached for their parts, but the poaching pressure would increase enormously if the "tame" supply were cut off.

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Seems likely that the temple/abbot is involved in sales of tiger parts to China, which is despicable. But it raises an ethical issue of how to deal with it. If the tigers were taken away and put into some (genuine) sanctuary where they were protected from being slaughtered and sold to China, it would probably result in the extirpation of the few remaining wild tigers in Thailand, because the demand would remain but the supply from the "Tiger Temple" cut off, meaning the only remaining source would be wild tigers.

It has been shown that this theory doesn't work in practice - the more a particular kind of animal's parts are available, the more the demand. As it is also cheaper to kill a tiger in the wild than raise one in a zoo the pressure is always on the wild population. Furthermore a wild animal is considered more potent than a "farmed" one.

The solution is deemed to be to end the market itself. This means that the possession, processing or consumption of any endangered animal is illegal, no matter what the source.

It also requires the education of people who are stupid enough to believe that such things as CTM have any real value.

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Seems likely that the temple/abbot is involved in sales of tiger parts to China, which is despicable. But it raises an ethical issue of how to deal with it. If the tigers were taken away and put into some (genuine) sanctuary where they were protected from being slaughtered and sold to China, it would probably result in the extirpation of the few remaining wild tigers in Thailand, because the demand would remain but the supply from the "Tiger Temple" cut off, meaning the only remaining source would be wild tigers.

exalll, sadly I think the Temple if it is exploiting these animals is not preventing the slaughter of wild Tigers. It is just another source.

Agreed - I am sure wild tigers are still poached for their parts, but the poaching pressure would increase enormously if the "tame" supply were cut off.

this is unfortunately not so....see my post above

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there is more then enough zoo in the world who ll be very happy to take very good care of those poor tigers , but for sure not in China .

Therein lies the rub.....most zoos would not be interested in these tigers - they are the result of an undocumented breeding program and have no genetic value, they can't be bred from. Most zoos now keep only animals they can justify keeping. E.G. research and gene-pools.

You will probably remember the controversy when a Danish zoo slaughtered a giraffe as "surplus to requirements"

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I think the monks are trying to turn the temple into a wild life sanctuary or they are running a business selling animals the solution to the problem arrest all the monks and recover all the animals job done

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