new business in cr

[tom07]

A lot of people ask me about what would be a good business to start in CR. My standard answer is well what previous business experience do you have? I invite amusing, and ironic answers to this thread.

[DonaldBattles]

As a farming town that has some tourist passing thru opportunities for farangs are few and far in between. I can only think of Kurt, Jan and Stevie as having experienced some success. There could be more that I do not know about. Notice that these three are in the food and beverage business. I should mention that Rob Dennis has done very well but most of his products are for wholesale in other parts of Thailand. These 4 guys are hard workers and pretty smart. Forgot one more, John Ellis at the Bistro has started and is doing a good business with good quality food.

[tom07]

I agree with your basic assessment of opportunities for farangs here Don. And I'm definitely not expecting any successful entrepreneur to answer this thread honestly; why would s/he! But just for fun, and shooting outside of the box (and even irony if it's allowed here). Btw I don't know any of the guys u mentioned.

[villagefarang]

There seem to be a few people who have done well selling God and setting up charities.

There is also the football guy but I am not sure if that project makes money or not.

Is the Rob you mentioned the pickle guy? I never bothered to ask his last name.

There are a couple of people who run resorts in their wives names.

There is some guy who sells motorcycle accessories but not sure how successful he is.

[tom07]

Good considerations, what about a forum based on donations? Would that need to be registered as a business, an ngo?, or just a wife liability kind of thing?

[villagefarang]

We also have a few artists in town and lots of people who source product here but don’t actually live here, as the business part of their venture is in the marketing end, and that requires a presence overseas.

There are a few real-estate guys but I heard one of the main players is leaving Thailand to provide a better future for his kids.

I used to know a guy who worked in Phuket but his family stayed here and commuted back and forth.

We drove over to Chiang Mai to get a couple of lamps from a shop in Baan Tawai the other day. There was a young Belgian guy working there and he said the owner is Belgian as well. Chiang Mai seems to be a better choice for setting up a business with better infrastructure and more exposure to international markets. I am sure more could be done here, and my guess is, that there is a lot more going on here than one sees on the surface.

[villagefarang]

Good considerations, what about a forum based on donations? Would that need to be registered as a business, an ngo?, or just a wife liability kind of thing?

That guy has “commented” at length about me in the past but I think I shall refrain from commenting about him, regardless. Not the polite or friendly thing to do in my opinion.

[DonaldBattles]

The guy who commuted from Phuket Robin Plant has since moved his family back to Phuket..

Yes Rob Dennis is sometimes called Pickle rob. I understand that his cheese products are really good. I would classify Rob as being the most successful one that I know.

Marty the motorcycle accessories guy say that it is his wife's business. He also builds custom barbecue grills. Nice guy been struggling for years.

Guy who built the stadium comes from a wealthy beer family in Belgium. He does not work except to help Chiang Rai.

I never count the missionaries or teachers as they are very transit.

For the business I had here the retail business never made a profit. We processed a lot of pepper and vegetable products here that we sent to Bangkok for distribution. The cafe and mart was needed feed me and my deceased brother. We never expected to make a profit on the retail as we were a long way from the city. We had to eat what we liked therefore we kept the kitchen open when I bought the place 12 years ago.

For people who want to make a business here I strongly recommend that they stay away from food and beverage retail no matter what their wives say.

[tolsti]

Cheese products?.... Pray tell more Mr Battles...Are they only available Oop North?

[DonaldBattles]

I am told that Kurt's Deli is the only local outlet for Rob's cheese. It was explained to me as being between blue and blue stilton. Those who have tried it said it was very good. His capability is sizable and I expect that he has other products in the mill.

[villagefarang]

Chivit Thamma Da seems to do fairly well but by all appearances the Thai wife actually does run the business, though I am pretty sure her farang husband has had some input.

The last time I spoke with Robin he was having a terrible problem with his neck. Would you happen to know if he recovered completely?

[tom07]

I can understand someone who’s “retired” with a pension or investment income wanting to start a small business for fun, to keep busy, but it must be really hard for foreigners in Thailand who are running businesses to survive. Especially if they’re “working” in the business without a work permit, which seems to be the case with most of them.

[villagefarang]

I suppose we should acknowledge the TTR writer, the ATV guy and the adventure park guy. Years ago there was a young baker who tried starting a bakery and family all at the same time. Unfortunately both went bust and he headed south to find work in the hotel industry leaving his wife and kid to fend for themselves here in Chiang Rai.

There is an old adage, you need money to make money, and it seems to apply to Chiang Rai. Most foreigners are undercapitalized and try to work from there residence or rent the cheapest place they can find because that is all they can afford, not because it makes sense for their business. They also ignore the 60 million Thais and focus on a very small pool of financially stressed expats as their customers.

Most of the business ideas I have heard over the years are little more than fantasies based on wishful thinking.

[DonaldBattles]

I know of no farang in business in Chiang Rai that has a work permit. The work that most of them is doing is not allowed by Thai Labor Law. In addition they use a lot of liquor and beer that does not have tax stamps on it. For example, with my work permit I had to pay a minimum of 5k per month just for the right to have the permit. Then I had to pay income tax, VAT and SS on employes this combined with a monthly 5k accounting fee. All of this is done before you have any income except the VAT. In addition you pay a big fee (about 40k) two times per year for audit fees and then another accounting fee for yearly statement. These are extremely high operating costs before you can even consider paying yourself a salary. The legal business simply does not add up.

Regarding being financially independent and having something to do for fun and keep you busy remember that as a business person you have to be there every day otherwise it will turn into Esan Don's quickly and your customers will be busting your balls frequently. You have no freedom for your fun business.

My comments in this forum are not meant to discourage anyone from doing what they wish to do but to advise them of what my experiences have been.

Robin Plant has fully recovered from his neck problem. I saw him at my book launch party in Phuket last year.

[tom07]

Great info Don

you had to pay 5k a month for your work permit? or for a liquor permit?

[DonaldBattles]

The 5k per month was an advanced salary tax imposed on Americans holding work permits. The requirement for other countries is different. Yes, I did neglect to mention paying of business tax permits on top of all the other things before you make 1 Baht of profit. I also forgot to mention that you automatically take 20% off the top for waste and theft. Theft has always been a big problem. You can not control it. These were not serious issues for me in my business in Phuket and Bangkok as the volume was very high.

[tom07]

WOW! I've never thought about opening a restaurant/bar here, and now I never will! If I lived over your way I'd be a regular patron, but I'm a long way over yonder.

@VF I agree wholeheartedly with what you say about farang business targeting an already saturated farang market (and which often has very little disposable cash anyway). It's a part of the expat bubble syndrome - some of them may have been here even longer than you or Don but never get out of that bubble, even if they're married to Thais.

[DonaldBattles]

The issues in this subject go a lot further than Chiang Rai. The problems are the same all over. The difference is the volume of business that you can obtain. Remember unless you have something very unique then you have to count on taking business away from someone who is already doing it. I was impressed with two Italian guys that have put together a roaming pizza truck. No rent and maybe no tax. They go to hot spots at night in Bangkok and start turning them out. I know a guy who tried this with a taco wagon in Samui and it did not work.

I think god was watching out for me in 1997 when the economy crashed and I opened a barbecue and burgers joint on the south end of Phuket. It instantly boomed because there were no places on the south rock you could get comfort food. We paid no tax of SS until we got caught. This cafe was never planned I simply rented the minimart trying to get my leftover staff from the engineering business in the central provinces out of my vacation house. I brought a barbecue grill up from my house and started cooking for myself. Rack of ribs and fries 75B and a jug of Carlsberg draft 55B. It was the beginning 20 years ago that turned into a nationwide food business. Yes god has been good to me.

[tom07]

Glad to hear it Don.

I've spent most of my working life in large multinational corporations, and that's given me a lot of opportunity to travel and now to live pretty comfortably (touch wood). Thailand has been good to me so far, and long may it continue!

[tom07]

Hey Don, I've just found you on Amazon and LinkedIn. You've been hiding your light under a bushel on this forum!

[DonaldBattles]

I assume that you are referring to the book I published in 2013 called Merchant Of The Orient, An Entrepreneur's Journey In Life. It starts in 1940 and ends in Chiang Rai in 2013. It is a straight shootin book whereby the truth offended some people.

I am working on my second book Lost In Bangkok For Thirty Years. Am on page 128 and on hold because of the dynamics of the political situation starting Feb. 2014.

[tom07]

Well I knew you'd written a book or two, but it was your previous career in the aerospace industry and your university background in aerospace engineering that took me by complete surprise. So when someone says "running a bar in Thailand is not rocket science", you can put them right in more ways than one...

By the way Merchant of the Orient is a great title, it soiunds like a thriller!

[ubonjoe]

A post flaming the OP has been removed.

[tom07]

But as far as writing as a profession is concerned, it seems that Chiang Mai has that covered.

Every visit there I find myself surrounded by people who call themselves writers, and it is true that there is a very small handful pf published authors there, a few bona fide print journalists and some online journalists who can all claim to write as a profession. But these are a small proportion of the "writers" there - I'd guess there are even more writers in Chiang Mai than there are bar-owners in Pattaya.

There are even one or two CM bars and bar events dedicated to writers, but so far this doesn't seem to have caught on in a big way in CR.

[tom07]

A couple of Bkk businessmen (Asian foreigners of 20 & 30 years standing in T-L) came to see me this week. I first met them a couple of years ago. Apparently things are getting tighter in Bkk for foreign business right now. They say it's the tightest it's ever been. When I compare their struggles to the farang retirees moonlighting on "business" and the farang so-called trust-fund babies of CR I really have to smile.

[bangmai]

trading stocks on the SET is looking better all the time.

[tom07]

Ah the markets! I’ve worked in the markets a few times back in Europe, and it really is incredible that trading software systems which would have cost millions of Euros back then and which were only available to institutional players are now free and available to consumers.

I know nothing about the SET in particular, but in general lone trading is not for me; it sounds great, but the reality for many lone traders is being glued to their screens for many hours every day, and what starts as fun can turn into a real obsessive-compulsive life-style.

But of course it is a rush when your holdings are going up, though not so nice when they come down.

[bangmai]

Still only open 6.5 hour per day in the US, and after hours is silly. How many hours would a small restaurant take? It can be like a job; just like sports betting...there is an infinite amount of information out there to study. I will probably spend 6 hours studying for the Belmont this week. I was able to get a fixed deposit at 3.2% APR in January, at a Thai Bank, and that now seems like the distant past...Yields can be good on the SET. Rental yields here are pretty poor, it's usually pretty hands on; and if you've ever been to the Land Offices; you know the entry/exit fees can really cut into potential profits.

[tom07]

Well the markets are 24 hours these days, or close to that if you have accounts that enable you to buy and sell in different ww regions/markets. Not yet 7 days a week though ;-) And the research can be a 7*24 obsession for many - yes, it can invade dreams ;-)

I think a lot of people who discover consumer internet technologies in their retirement go a bit overboard on it; I can understand that - they have time on their hands, it's new to them, fun initially, cheap, and it does have the appearance of a social dimension (often not a very healthy one imho) - the reality is often someone alone at home or face down in a public place. And the obsessive-compulsive risk is real - scary stuff :-)

[tom07]

I suppose we should acknowledge the TTR writer, the ATV guy and the adventure park guy. Years ago there was a young baker who tried starting a bakery and family all at the same time. Unfortunately both went bust and he headed south to find work in the hotel industry leaving his wife and kid to fend for themselves here in Chiang Rai.

There is an old adage, you need money to make money, and it seems to apply to Chiang Rai. Most foreigners are undercapitalized and try to work from there residence or rent the cheapest place they can find because that is all they can afford, not because it makes sense for their business. They also ignore the 60 million Thais and focus on a very small pool of financially stressed expats as their customers.

Most of the business ideas I have heard over the years are little more than fantasies based on wishful thinking.

Well it's easy to knock those guys VF, but at least they have tried. To the best of my knowledge you have never tried. If I am wrong about that I'd be happy to know.