Brian Robson Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 elephants are NOT domesticated - they are captive or tamed, but not domesticated. Some people seem to not understand the 'wild' part of wild animal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soalbundy Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 That elephant was really looking forward to it's sugar cane, reminder to self, buy the sugar cane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 words fail me.......for now, at any rate...... Good. elephant SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN THERE!!!!! - how comew the police didn't notice someone travelling around with 2 <deleted> elephants in a truck!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? this country as an absolutely disgraceful record when it comes to handling an animal they regard as a national symbol......they should stop and think what their treatment of these creatures actually symbolises.........an utter disgrace! ! Oh well, 5 minutes isn't too bad. ... The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."Edmund Burke Right, but this is Thailand where good men are a bit of a premium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackanapes Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 this mahout or whatever knew he was breaking the law he should be charged with causing the death of one man and seriously injuring another a harsh penalty should be imposed . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullstop Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 elephants are NOT domesticated - they are captive or tamed, but not domesticated. Asian elephants have been domesticated for thousands of years. That's like saying horses and dogs are not domesticated because there are pockets of wild horses and dogs here and there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingdoc Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 This is the second time this has happened on a Rayong beach within a year. The last time the Thai woman involved died within minutes. When will anybody learn or even care? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NanLaew Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 I have seen plenty instances of 'an elephant walks into a bar' in my time here but that elephant is huge. I haven't seen one that big being trawled around the traps before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peterbkk7 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 So what do you think is going to change.. in 2 weeks this incident will be fogotten And in 10 years from now you can be sure that elephans will still be exploited that way. here nothing ever changes. And certainly not cruelty against animals Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brewsterbudgen Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 At least in Bangkok elephants are no longer seen in the main tourist areas. Very sad story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balance Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Elephant kills Thai man at beachside restaurant AFP RAYONG: -- An elephant killed a 28-year-old Thai man and injured his colleague as they were eating dinner at a beachside restaurant in eastern Thailand, police said on Wednesday. The local telecoms employee died in hospital after the elephant gored his chest with its tusk as he ate hotpot with a fellow worker in the coastal city of Rayong late Monday. "They were talking to the mahout (elephant keeper) about buying food for the elephant when it suddenly stabbed one man in the chest with its tusk and kicked the other," local police Lieutenant Thawat Nongsingha told AFP. The mahout has been charged with offences including violating animal welfare legislation and negligence causing death, Thawat said. He added the mahout had been released from custody while the elephant was still under the mahout's care. The maximum penalty for negligence causing death is 10 years in jail and a fine of 20,000 baht ($600). Thailand's roughly 4,000 domesticated elephants outnumber an estimated 2,500 remaining in the wild. The capture of wild elephants for entertainment use is banned. Domestic elephants in Thailand -- where the pachyderm is a national symbol -- have been used en masse in the tourist trade since they found themselves unemployed in 1989 when logging was banned. They are prohibited from entering cities but incidents of mahouts using the animals as a tool for begging are not uncommon, while elephants are frequently used legally for the amusement of holidaymakers in camps and zoos. The telecoms worker died on Tuesday while his 30-year-old colleague remains in hospital. -- (c) Copyright AFP 2015-06-17 Will someone tell me how the mahouts are suppose to feed their animals if they cannot find any work? Want to bet that the best that will be coming from the government is nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Elephant kills Thai man at beachside restaurant AFP RAYONG: -- An elephant killed a 28-year-old Thai man and injured his colleague as they were eating dinner at a beachside restaurant in eastern Thailand, police said on Wednesday. The local telecoms employee died in hospital after the elephant gored his chest with its tusk as he ate hotpot with a fellow worker in the coastal city of Rayong late Monday. "They were talking to the mahout (elephant keeper) about buying food for the elephant when it suddenly stabbed one man in the chest with its tusk and kicked the other," local police Lieutenant Thawat Nongsingha told AFP. The mahout has been charged with offences including violating animal welfare legislation and negligence causing death, Thawat said. He added the mahout had been released from custody while the elephant was still under the mahout's care. The maximum penalty for negligence causing death is 10 years in jail and a fine of 20,000 baht ($600). Thailand's roughly 4,000 domesticated elephants outnumber an estimated 2,500 remaining in the wild. The capture of wild elephants for entertainment use is banned. Domestic elephants in Thailand -- where the pachyderm is a national symbol -- have been used en masse in the tourist trade since they found themselves unemployed in 1989 when logging was banned. They are prohibited from entering cities but incidents of mahouts using the animals as a tool for begging are not uncommon, while elephants are frequently used legally for the amusement of holidaymakers in camps and zoos. The telecoms worker died on Tuesday while his 30-year-old colleague remains in hospital. -- (c) Copyright AFP 2015-06-17 Will someone tell me how the mahouts are suppose to feed their animals if they cannot find any work? Want to bet that the best that will be coming from the government is nothing. That is rather a facile question...it makes the assumption that without being on the streets they would starve - which is a false premise....... Elephants are worth a lot of money...why because people can make good money out of them. the problem is that the stock of elephants is originally from elephants that were retired after the government made virtually all logging illegal in the late 80s. What should have happened is that elephants were to be retired onto reservations - there IS room - and live out their days - but unscrupulous people have kept elephants working in tourism as they can make big money. often by renting them out to street vendors - please don't call them mahouts as they certainly don't qualify for that title. The sad thing is that successive governments have failed to lift a finger to help, and also failed enact any protection laws for elephants or enforce any regulations restricting their activities. the next problem is that as elephants are still profitable, there is a demand for more - this has led to breeding of elephants and worse the illegal smuggling of wild elephants mostly from Burma. - There is a huge amount of cruelty involved in this. There is enough space both in the wild and in special reserves for both the wild and captive elephants to live out theior lives, but for the sake of a bit of cash in hand, these elephants are kept "working" or rather being exploited by their captors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gandalf12 Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 It should to totally illegal to bring elephants into populated areas for this begging crap. Arrest the mahout, toss his ass in jail for a month, put the elephant in a good place, and ban the mahout from owning anything bigger than a house lizard. What do you have against house lizards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just1Voice Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 It should to totally illegal to bring elephants into populated areas for this begging crap. Arrest the mahout, toss his ass in jail for a month, put the elephant in a good place, and ban the mahout from owning anything bigger than a house lizard. What do you have against house lizards? Nothing! I have 4-5 of them living in my house now, and we get along just fine. But it's that damn 2 foot long too-kay on my neighbor's house that drives me nuts sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingdoc Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 Elephants can not be domesticated - they are wild animals that can be tamed in the right hands ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 17, 2015 Share Posted June 17, 2015 elephants are NOT domesticated - they are captive or tamed, but not domesticated. Asian elephants have been domesticated for thousands of years. That's like saying horses and dogs are not domesticated because there are pockets of wild horses and dogs here and there. I think you need to review your presuppositions about domestication. Domestication is the process of changing plants or animals to make them more useful to humans. It involves accentuating traits that are desirable or useful to us humans... There is a difference between domesticated animals and “captive” or “tamed” wildlife. Domesticated animals such as cats dogs, cattle sheep etc. have been selectively bred my man for millennia to develop aspect that make them easy to handle and productive. Be it is producers of food or help/work/companionship. The animals they are descended from are genetically markedly different from the domesticated version. It’s a kind of long-term GM. Compare a Chihuahua to a wolf.....or where would you go to see a wild cow? elephants, however, are a different case..... they are taxonomically the same as their wild relatives. TAMING or rather “breaking” is an appalling process involving great cruelty and violence to the baby animals. Furthermore there is no such thing as an entire species of elephant that is perpetually “tame” and manageable - each animal has to be “broken” for use by humans. Can you imagine doing that with a herd of cattle, every time a calf is born? Elephants are tamed - they are intelligent and show behavioural patterns that indicate they may even have emotions. But once an animals has been in constant contact with humans it become difficult or even impossible to release them back into the wild - so most elephant sanctuaries rely on being able to provide the animals with as much natural space as possible within a fenced area. PS - If a elephant “conservation” centre is offering elephant rides and shows, then it is almost certainly exploiting rather than caring for the animals...rule of thumb - if they have elephant rides they aren’t the real thing. PPS - I think you don't understand the situation as regards to genuinely "wild" species of dogs and horses - check out the genealogy of domesticated dogs and horses. Firstly all domesticated dogs are descended from wolves - do they even look the same? Wild horses - Do you realise that they are an endangered species that lives (reintroduced) in only Mongolia. the "wild horses you see in the US are descendants of domesticated animals - the term for them is "feral" as distinct from wild. Real wild horses became extinct in America about 10, 000 years ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
williet98248 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 elephants are NOT domesticated - they are captive or tamed, but not domesticated. Would't an elephant borne and trained in captivity be considered domesticated? Maybe this one was just tired and irritated. 'Domesticated' dogs bite and 'domesticated' cats will bite and claw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 elephants are NOT domesticated - they are captive or tamed, but not domesticated. Would't an elephant borne and trained in captivity be considered domesticated? Maybe this one was just tired and irritated. 'Domesticated' dogs bite and 'domesticated' cats will bite and claw. There are people who would use that word, but they'd be wrong - elephants even born in captivity have to be broken and trained from scratch, unlike an animal that has been selectively bred for generations for characteristic, physical and behavioural traits.... Domestication differs for “taming” in that it involves changing the “pheontypical” expression and genotype of an animal. This means breeding and changing physical or behavioural characteristics - there are no genetic or basic differences between an elephants in captivity and in the wild. If you look at most domestic animals the difference is easily seen. “Taming” is just a way we make individual animals get used to us and our commandsDomestication differs for “taming” in that it involves changing the “pheontypical” expression and genotype of an animal. This means breeding and changing physical or behavioural characteristics - there are no genetic or basic differences between an elephants in captivity and in the wild. If you look at most domestic animals the difference is easily seen. “Taming” is just a way we make individual animals get used to us and our commands... as for "tired and irritated" - anthropomorphism is seldom a helpful way to account for animal behaviour. However male elephants come in musth and domesticated or not at this time they are extremely unpredictable and dangerous - an experienced elephant handler would anticipate this. Unfortunately many regard starvation, dehydration or drugging as appropriate solutions for this event. If the elephant was only 4 years old - (what is even certificated????) - then musth is unlikely to be the cause.....which leaves drugging - many elephants and other street animals are habitually drugged by there owners to make them ore handleable in public...whereas this may work in the short term, as with any living animal prolonged use of drugs will inevitably have knock-on effects; again this ca result in unpredictable, aggressive behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
huangnon Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 ^Informative post, thanks. Elephants going into "musk" are also more aggressive. I bet the "mahouts" don't stop them working during this period.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 ^Informative post, thanks. Elephants going into "musk" are also more aggressive. I bet the "mahouts" don't stop them working during this period.? if a bull elephant is in "full musth, no-one in their right mind would go anywhere near it. In India they are tied to a tree and starved of food and water. In zoos in the west they are put in protective cages...... the onset has to be anticipated...there are tell-tale signs - excreting from glands and behavioural........however if one elephant is in musth then other males tend to calm down........ There is a specific drug for elephants in musth and I'm sure that handlers here are all too happy to give the animal a jab if it means they can continue working. It has to be said that there is evidence that an "angry" elephant can pick out and recognise a particular person and will charge that one person ignoring anything else. one also has to wonder about the effects of flash photography....elephants don't seem to like it but an animal that has been walking the streets could well already be accustomed to it. So why would it suddenly take a dislike to it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILT Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I see that TV has another elephant expert (cumgranosalum) that has once again blurred the lines in regards to domesticated elephants. I'll say it again "I have been working with the Thai Domesticated elephants working in the tourism in Thailand for 20 years now...and couldn't disagree more with cumgranosalum opinion.....some parts of this members opinion have already been well documented so just a mindless repetition of the same old BS and are complete rubbish....nonfactual propaganda. Listen folks very few young domesticated elephants are broken down and tortured or separated from the mother in the "training process" nowadays! It's like the notion that elephants are forced to paint....again completely false! There are people who would use that word, but they'd be wrong - elephants even born in captivity have to be broken and trained from scratch, unlike an animal that has been selectively bred for generations for characteristic, physical and behavioural traits.... Domestication differs for “taming” in that it involves changing the “pheontypical” expression and genotype of an animal. This means breeding and changing physical or behavioural characteristics - there are no genetic or basic differences between an elephants in captivity and in the wild. If you look at most domestic animals the difference is easily seen. “Taming” is just a way we make individual animals get used to us and our commandsDomestication differs for “taming” in that it involves changing the “pheontypical” expression and genotype of an animal. This means breeding and changing physical or behavioural characteristics - there are no genetic or basic differences between an elephants in captivity and in the wild. If you look at most domestic animals the difference is easily seen. “Taming” is just a way we make individual animals get used to us and our commands... as for "tired and irritated" - anthropomorphism is seldom a helpful way to account for animal behaviour. However male elephants come in musth and domesticated or not at this time they are extremely unpredictable and dangerous - an experienced elephant handler would anticipate this. Unfortunately many regard starvation, dehydration or drugging as appropriate solutions for this event. If the elephant was only 4 years old - (what is even certificated????) - then musth is unlikely to be the cause.....which leaves drugging - many elephants and other street animals are habitually drugged by there owners to make them ore handleable in public...whereas this may work in the short term, as with any living animal prolonged use of drugs will inevitably have knock-on effects; again this ca result in unpredictable, aggressive behaviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILT Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 ^Informative post, thanks. Elephants going into "musk" are also more aggressive. I bet the "mahouts" don't stop them working during this period.? ...and you would be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I see that TV has another elephant expert (cumgranosalum) that has once again blurred the lines in regards to domesticated elephants. I'll say it again "I have been working with the Thai Domesticated elephants working in the tourism in Thailand for 20 years now...and couldn't disagree more with cumgranosalum opinion.....some parts of this members opinion have already been well documented so just a mindless repetition of the same old BS and are complete rubbish....nonfactual propaganda. Listen folks very few young domesticated elephants are broken down and tortured or separated from the mother in the "training process" nowadays! It's like the notion that elephants are forced to paint....again completely false! There are people who would use that word, but they'd be wrong - elephants even born in captivity have to be broken and trained from scratch, unlike an animal that has been selectively bred for generations for characteristic, physical and behavioural traits.... Domestication differs for “taming” in that it involves changing the “pheontypical” expression and genotype of an animal. This means breeding and changing physical or behavioural characteristics - there are no genetic or basic differences between an elephants in captivity and in the wild. If you look at most domestic animals the difference is easily seen. “Taming” is just a way we make individual animals get used to us and our commandsDomestication differs for “taming” in that it involves changing the “pheontypical” expression and genotype of an animal. This means breeding and changing physical or behavioural characteristics - there are no genetic or basic differences between an elephants in captivity and in the wild. If you look at most domestic animals the difference is easily seen. “Taming” is just a way we make individual animals get used to us and our commands... as for "tired and irritated" - anthropomorphism is seldom a helpful way to account for animal behaviour. However male elephants come in musth and domesticated or not at this time they are extremely unpredictable and dangerous - an experienced elephant handler would anticipate this. Unfortunately many regard starvation, dehydration or drugging as appropriate solutions for this event. If the elephant was only 4 years old - (what is even certificated????) - then musth is unlikely to be the cause.....which leaves drugging - many elephants and other street animals are habitually drugged by there owners to make them ore handleable in public...whereas this may work in the short term, as with any living animal prolonged use of drugs will inevitably have knock-on effects; again this ca result in unpredictable, aggressive behaviour. "nd couldn't disagree more with cumgranosalum" - well maybe he/she'd like to say how or why??? "expoert"??? - try attacking the message not the messenger.......... ...........you may notice that not a single thing I've posted has been disproved by this person who is obviously deeply involved in the exploitation of elephants. forced to paint? did they just go to the shops and ask for a brush? these anthropomorphic attitudes are potentially some of the most dangerous threats to wildlife and conservation because they lull the general public into a false sense of security. if anyone has a problem with any of my post, please articulate it...with reason.....not the amount of time you have been involved in animal abuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILT Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 You once again prove my point...Be careful with your unfounded charges of abuse and exploitation. Not surprised really that you would feel that I was attacking you based on your post containing internet gleaned information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 vYou once again prove my point...Be careful with your unfounded charges of abuse and exploitation. Not surprised really that you would feel that I was attacking you based on your post containing internet gleaned information. you still haven't addressed a single issue in my post. I would suggest that this is because when it comes down to brass tacks, you haven't got a leg to stand on.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 THailand has a dreadful record as regards both wild and captive elephants. THe lwas concerning elephants in captivity are about te same as those owning a car - the animals are legally no more than a chattel. The abuse extends from street level upwards. local police and authorities still aren't really concerned about the practice of taking elephants around city streets at night. Any concept that this is the only way they can survive is pure nonsense. But it isn't just this that makes the plight of the elephant in Thailand so dreadful. all around the Kingdom are organisations claiming to be conserve or protect the elephant - the truth is many simply don't do this - using words like "conservation" and "sanctuary" are for many people just an advertising slogan to make more money out of unsuspecting tourists. with no proper government legislation and no independent overseeing /inspection body, many camps get away with just about anything under the name of conservation. Not only does this damage the fate of the elephant in Thailand it also gives a false impression to the world at large that the elephant's situation in Thailand is OK - it isn't - in the wild they are threatened with extinction and in captivity they are abused with impunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILT Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 vYou once again prove my point...Be careful with your unfounded charges of abuse and exploitation. Not surprised really that you would feel that I was attacking you based on your post containing internet gleaned information. you still haven't addressed a single issue in my post. I would suggest that this is because when it comes down to brass tacks, you haven't got a leg to stand on.... Hahahahaha! You're right! I don't stand on brass tacks....ever! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MILT Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 THailand has a dreadful record as regards both wild and captive elephants. THe lwas concerning elephants in captivity are about te same as those owning a car - the animals are legally no more than a chattel. The abuse extends from street level upwards. local police and authorities still aren't really concerned about the practice of taking elephants around city streets at night. Any concept that this is the only way they can survive is pure nonsense. But it isn't just this that makes the plight of the elephant in Thailand so dreadful. all around the Kingdom are organisations claiming to be conserve or protect the elephant - the truth is many simply don't do this - using words like "conservation" and "sanctuary" are for many people just an advertising slogan to make more money out of unsuspecting tourists. with no proper government legislation and no independent overseeing /inspection body, many camps get away with just about anything under the name of conservation. Not only does this damage the fate of the elephant in Thailand it also gives a false impression to the world at large that the elephant's situation in Thailand is OK - it isn't - in the wild they are threatened with extinction and in captivity they are abused with impunity. I have to actually agree with some of your comments in regards to sanctuary's and the like....but then you go on to generalize all captive/domesticated elephant as being abused.... Some domesticated elephants are abused and mistreated which is a lot more accurate than your generalization of all domesticated elephants. If you were to put your passions towards exploitation and abuse of children you could most likely make a difference. Exaggerations is just another form of lying....right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 19, 2015 Share Posted June 19, 2015 THailand has a dreadful record as regards both wild and captive elephants. THe lwas concerning elephants in captivity are about te same as those owning a car - the animals are legally no more than a chattel. The abuse extends from street level upwards. local police and authorities still aren't really concerned about the practice of taking elephants around city streets at night. Any concept that this is the only way they can survive is pure nonsense. But it isn't just this that makes the plight of the elephant in Thailand so dreadful. all around the Kingdom are organisations claiming to be conserve or protect the elephant - the truth is many simply don't do this - using words like "conservation" and "sanctuary" are for many people just an advertising slogan to make more money out of unsuspecting tourists. with no proper government legislation and no independent overseeing /inspection body, many camps get away with just about anything under the name of conservation. Not only does this damage the fate of the elephant in Thailand it also gives a false impression to the world at large that the elephant's situation in Thailand is OK - it isn't - in the wild they are threatened with extinction and in captivity they are abused with impunity. I have to actually agree with some of your comments in regards to sanctuary's and the like....but then you go on to generalize all captive/domesticated elephant as being abused.... Some domesticated elephants are abused and mistreated which is a lot more accurate than your generalization of all domesticated elephants. If you were to put your passions towards exploitation and abuse of children you could most likely make a difference. Exaggerations is just another form of lying....right? So now you try to deflect the argument by suggesting a false dichotomy - children versus elephants. but.......you STILL haven't addressed a single issue - why because i suspect it is too close to home. I understand from your earlier post you are/were involved in the keeping of captive elephants..is that so? "your generalization of all domesticated elephants." really? what's that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cumgranosalum Posted June 26, 2015 Share Posted June 26, 2015 THailand has a dreadful record as regards both wild and captive elephants. THe lwas concerning elephants in captivity are about te same as those owning a car - the animals are legally no more than a chattel. The abuse extends from street level upwards. local police and authorities still aren't really concerned about the practice of taking elephants around city streets at night. Any concept that this is the only way they can survive is pure nonsense. But it isn't just this that makes the plight of the elephant in Thailand so dreadful. all around the Kingdom are organisations claiming to be conserve or protect the elephant - the truth is many simply don't do this - using words like "conservation" and "sanctuary" are for many people just an advertising slogan to make more money out of unsuspecting tourists. with no proper government legislation and no independent overseeing /inspection body, many camps get away with just about anything under the name of conservation. Not only does this damage the fate of the elephant in Thailand it also gives a false impression to the world at large that the elephant's situation in Thailand is OK - it isn't - in the wild they are threatened with extinction and in captivity they are abused with impunity. I have to actually agree with some of your comments in regards to sanctuary's and the like....but then you go on to generalize all captive/domesticated elephant as being abused.... Some domesticated elephants are abused and mistreated which is a lot more accurate than your generalization of all domesticated elephants. If you were to put your passions towards exploitation and abuse of children you could most likely make a difference. Exaggerations is just another form of lying....right? So now you try to deflect the argument by suggesting a false dichotomy - children versus elephants. but.......you STILL haven't addressed a single issue - why because i suspect it is too close to home. I understand from your earlier post you are/were involved in the keeping of captive elephants..is that so? "your generalization of all domesticated elephants." really? what's that? I think the silence may say all we need to hear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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