Berserk elephant kills mahout, runs away with Chinese tourists on its back

[cumgranosalum]

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....and you feel that this comment in some way justifies the treatment of elephants in Thailand?

cumgranosalum. Of course my statement doesn't justify the treatment of the elephants, I hate cruelty to animals. Ive never taken part in those activities in Thailand because of this. I'm just saying it is easy for us to all take the high ground judging others in a world where many injustices occur that we all, through our purchasing decisions & lifestyles, turn a blind eye to. Anyhow this is a heavy discussion that could go deep and on forever.

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so ....what IS your point then?

[gyrosman]

The Elephant is Lucky, they could of BBQ him, a change from dog.

[Gonzo the Face]

Pure exploitation of elephants, nothing else, all in the name of greed ...

Elephants are endemic to T'land. Let them be free.

My condolences to the family of the mahout. That's a rough way to die.

But let's look at this 'exploitation,' 'greed,' and the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand....

Chiangmai331, are you going to give up your home so the elephants can roam freely? Do you suppose your neighbors will? After all, the land your homes are built upon were once jungle that supported the wild elephant population. Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... Are you beginning to see some problems with just letting the elephants run freely?

Kannikapor88, will you please pay the veterinary bills for the elephants? Elephants don't need more than a few dollars a day for food, so could you please pay for that as well... of course multiplied by several hundred elephants currently residing in Elephant Camps. After all, if the tourists aren't paying money (which buys the elephant's food and pays veterinary bills,) someone certainly has to. As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.

Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped. Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic, but I can certainly understand the results. Someone has to pay to feed the elephants. It's rather like the Pro-Life people saying 'we have a duty to save the unborn babies, but no obligation to feed them after they are born...'

Someone has to pay. For food. For medical care. For space. Elephants can't take care of themselves any more because of what WE did to their habitat. So who do you suggest pays now?

I'm astounded at the depth of ignorance of the topic expressed in this post - every pint you make is inaccurate or just downright wrong.

The most appalling thing is that you don't seem to realise that in order to post on a topic you need to know something about it- it is quite clear you have made no effort whatsoever to find out about the plight of elephants in Thailand at all.

Your first comment “the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand” - is tripe, no-one is suggesting this so debating it is pointless.

And further on you further underline your ignorance of the situation.....

“As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.”

No we haven’t! This is a totally incorrect statement - you obviously haven’t done any research on this at all - you are just making assumptions thaqt you hope might support your fallacious arguments.

You seem to think that all over Thailand people will have to give up their land and there will be conflicts with elephants.

You obviously are unaware of the amount of land that is ALREADY available for both wild elephants and the potential for keeping captive elephants.

The problems facing elephants in Thailand are largely as a result of encroachment by humans who illegally make use of land they are not entitled to or invade elephants land for hunting and other commercial uses.

You also seem to be confused as to the difference between wild and captive elephants (I won’t use the word domesticated as it is misleading) Both categories have problems that need addressing in different ways - you don’t seem to appreciate this.

As for vet bills - are you serious??? - All countries have a duty to look after both captive and wild animals within their borders. The captive elephants were originally used in logging and have owners - these owners have a moral and even a minimum legal duty to look after them.

As captive elephants - contrary to what you seem to believe - can’t be released into the wild, they have to be looked after by their owners. Therefore it is the governments responsibility to ensure that the elephants’ owners look after them...failing this should result i prosecution.

You also seem to think that the common abuses of elephants are justifies as a way of raising money to look after them.

In fact it has been shown by various establishments both in Asia and Africa that it is not necessary to use exploitative methods to make money for the animals, that in reality the public are quite prepared in fact actually prefer to see elephants is as natural state as possible. So your premise that engaging elephants in is not the only way to finance them.

Then your post just goes from the sublime to the ridiculous..

“Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped

Where on earth di you get this idea from?? “Animal activists” - is this some secret society or a figment of your imagination.....what is certainly a figment is your ideas on why logging was stopped in Thailand. In fact logging was banned by the Thai government as a result of the effects of deforestation - notably flooding.

“Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic,”

This is none of the most facile comments you make - firstly as you don’t appear to understand either how domesticated animals are used in agriculture or how these conditions compared with the elephants used in the forests for logging. Anyhow as you make this to support a totally incorrect assumption about the ending of logging it needs to be dismissed on all counts.

Finally on your comment about new-born babies just seem top indicate that you are incapable of thinking rationally on any subject.......

Cumi, it must give you so much self satisfaction to think yourself so all knowing. I do read what you say but think your pendulum has swung too far in the other direction........ perhaps your writing would come out better if you could include some violin music. I don't think many of the posters hereon are suggesting cruelty to the elephants, but circumstances change. All creatures deserve to be treated with kindness, but there comes a time and circumstance when choices must be made that will , to some, appear to negatively impact one or the other. I await your comments on how to enhance the lives of the elephants while not negatively impacting another species.

[cumgranosalum]

Elephants are endemic to T'land. Let them be free.

My condolences to the family of the mahout. That's a rough way to die.

But let's look at this 'exploitation,' 'greed,' and the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand....

Chiangmai331, are you going to give up your home so the elephants can roam freely? Do you suppose your neighbors will? After all, the land your homes are built upon were once jungle that supported the wild elephant population. Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... Are you beginning to see some problems with just letting the elephants run freely?

Kannikapor88, will you please pay the veterinary bills for the elephants? Elephants don't need more than a few dollars a day for food, so could you please pay for that as well... of course multiplied by several hundred elephants currently residing in Elephant Camps. After all, if the tourists aren't paying money (which buys the elephant's food and pays veterinary bills,) someone certainly has to. As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.

Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped. Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic, but I can certainly understand the results. Someone has to pay to feed the elephants. It's rather like the Pro-Life people saying 'we have a duty to save the unborn babies, but no obligation to feed them after they are born...'

Someone has to pay. For food. For medical care. For space. Elephants can't take care of themselves any more because of what WE did to their habitat. So who do you suggest pays now?

I'm astounded at the depth of ignorance of the topic expressed in this post - every pint you make is inaccurate or just downright wrong.

The most appalling thing is that you don't seem to realise that in order to post on a topic you need to know something about it- it is quite clear you have made no effort whatsoever to find out about the plight of elephants in Thailand at all.

Your first comment “the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand” - is tripe, no-one is suggesting this so debating it is pointless.

And further on you further underline your ignorance of the situation.....

“As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.”

No we haven’t! This is a totally incorrect statement - you obviously haven’t done any research on this at all - you are just making assumptions thaqt you hope might support your fallacious arguments.

You seem to think that all over Thailand people will have to give up their land and there will be conflicts with elephants.

You obviously are unaware of the amount of land that is ALREADY available for both wild elephants and the potential for keeping captive elephants.

The problems facing elephants in Thailand are largely as a result of encroachment by humans who illegally make use of land they are not entitled to or invade elephants land for hunting and other commercial uses.

You also seem to be confused as to the difference between wild and captive elephants (I won’t use the word domesticated as it is misleading) Both categories have problems that need addressing in different ways - you don’t seem to appreciate this.

As for vet bills - are you serious??? - All countries have a duty to look after both captive and wild animals within their borders. The captive elephants were originally used in logging and have owners - these owners have a moral and even a minimum legal duty to look after them.

As captive elephants - contrary to what you seem to believe - can’t be released into the wild, they have to be looked after by their owners. Therefore it is the governments responsibility to ensure that the elephants’ owners look after them...failing this should result i prosecution.

You also seem to think that the common abuses of elephants are justifies as a way of raising money to look after them.

In fact it has been shown by various establishments both in Asia and Africa that it is not necessary to use exploitative methods to make money for the animals, that in reality the public are quite prepared in fact actually prefer to see elephants is as natural state as possible. So your premise that engaging elephants in is not the only way to finance them.

Then your post just goes from the sublime to the ridiculous..

“Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped

Where on earth di you get this idea from?? “Animal activists” - is this some secret society or a figment of your imagination.....what is certainly a figment is your ideas on why logging was stopped in Thailand. In fact logging was banned by the Thai government as a result of the effects of deforestation - notably flooding.

“Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic,”

This is none of the most facile comments you make - firstly as you don’t appear to understand either how domesticated animals are used in agriculture or how these conditions compared with the elephants used in the forests for logging. Anyhow as you make this to support a totally incorrect assumption about the ending of logging it needs to be dismissed on all counts.

Finally on your comment about new-born babies just seem top indicate that you are incapable of thinking rationally on any subject.......

Cumi, it must give you so much self satisfaction to think yourself so all knowing. I do read what you say but think your pendulum has swung too far in the other direction........ perhaps your writing would come out better if you could include some violin music. I don't think many of the posters hereon are suggesting cruelty to the elephants, but circumstances change. All creatures deserve to be treated with kindness, but there comes a time and circumstance when choices must be made that will , to some, appear to negatively impact one or the other. I await your comments on how to enhance the lives of the elephants while not negatively impacting another species.

Ii constantly surprises me that people are prepared to post on these threads when they appear to have have no idea of the issues in the first place

Why await MY comments????

don't be so lazy!!! - my comments are merely reporting the information that is readily available to ALL - including yourself, if you could be bothered to check it out before making wishy-washy comments about pendulums that have no connection with anything I've posted.

whaty I have posted here and elsewhere is that there are alternatives to exploiting elephants in the "entertainment" industry.

If you are a unaware of these alternatives then I suggest you find out for yourself before making unfounded comments that indicate not only you know little about the situation with both wild and captive elephants ,but it would appear you are incapable of =understanding my post. If you don't then I'm sorry if I'm not clear enough for you, but the onus is on YOU to educate yourself...not me.

If on the other hand you have an argument against any SPECIFIC comment that I have made, please put this forward for discussion.

[FolkGuitar]

Ii constantly surprises me that people are prepared to post on these threads when they appear to have have no idea of the issues in the first place

My condolences to the family of the mahout. That's a rough way to die.

But let's look at this 'exploitation,' 'greed,' and the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand....

Chiangmai331, are you going to give up your home so the elephants can roam freely? Do you suppose your neighbors will? After all, the land your homes are built upon were once jungle that supported the wild elephant population. Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... Are you beginning to see some problems with just letting the elephants run freely?

Kannikapor88, will you please pay the veterinary bills for the elephants? Elephants don't need more than a few dollars a day for food, so could you please pay for that as well... of course multiplied by several hundred elephants currently residing in Elephant Camps. After all, if the tourists aren't paying money (which buys the elephant's food and pays veterinary bills,) someone certainly has to. As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.

Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped. Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic, but I can certainly understand the results. Someone has to pay to feed the elephants. It's rather like the Pro-Life people saying 'we have a duty to save the unborn babies, but no obligation to feed them after they are born...'

Someone has to pay. For food. For medical care. For space. Elephants can't take care of themselves any more because of what WE did to their habitat. So who do you suggest pays now?

I'm astounded at the depth of ignorance of the topic expressed in this post - every pint you make is inaccurate or just downright wrong.

The most appalling thing is that you don't seem to realise that in order to post on a topic you need to know something about it- it is quite clear you have made no effort whatsoever to find out about the plight of elephants in Thailand at all.

Your first comment “the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand” - is tripe, no-one is suggesting this so debating it is pointless.

And further on you further underline your ignorance of the situation.....

“As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.”

No we haven’t! This is a totally incorrect statement - you obviously haven’t done any research on this at all - you are just making assumptions thaqt you hope might support your fallacious arguments.

You seem to think that all over Thailand people will have to give up their land and there will be conflicts with elephants.

You obviously are unaware of the amount of land that is ALREADY available for both wild elephants and the potential for keeping captive elephants.

The problems facing elephants in Thailand are largely as a result of encroachment by humans who illegally make use of land they are not entitled to or invade elephants land for hunting and other commercial uses.

You also seem to be confused as to the difference between wild and captive elephants (I won’t use the word domesticated as it is misleading) Both categories have problems that need addressing in different ways - you don’t seem to appreciate this.

As for vet bills - are you serious??? - All countries have a duty to look after both captive and wild animals within their borders. The captive elephants were originally used in logging and have owners - these owners have a moral and even a minimum legal duty to look after them.

As captive elephants - contrary to what you seem to believe - can’t be released into the wild, they have to be looked after by their owners. Therefore it is the governments responsibility to ensure that the elephants’ owners look after them...failing this should result i prosecution.

You also seem to think that the common abuses of elephants are justifies as a way of raising money to look after them.

In fact it has been shown by various establishments both in Asia and Africa that it is not necessary to use exploitative methods to make money for the animals, that in reality the public are quite prepared in fact actually prefer to see elephants is as natural state as possible. So your premise that engaging elephants in is not the only way to finance them.

Then your post just goes from the sublime to the ridiculous..

“Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped

Where on earth di you get this idea from?? “Animal activists” - is this some secret society or a figment of your imagination.....what is certainly a figment is your ideas on why logging was stopped in Thailand. In fact logging was banned by the Thai government as a result of the effects of deforestation - notably flooding.

“Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic,”

This is none of the most facile comments you make - firstly as you don’t appear to understand either how domesticated animals are used in agriculture or how these conditions compared with the elephants used in the forests for logging. Anyhow as you make this to support a totally incorrect assumption about the ending of logging it needs to be dismissed on all counts.

Finally on your comment about new-born babies just seem top indicate that you are incapable of thinking rationally on any subject.......

Why await MY comments????

You're right. There is no valid reason. It would appear that more than 40 people support the ideas that I've put forth, and only you object to them. It also appears that several people object to the ideas that you put forth. Could it be that you are the only one privy to some secret information than none of the rest of us has? I doubt it.

I've been out of town for a few days, and return to see that the only changes are more people disagreeing with you and more supporting my posts, so I'm going to back out of this discussion and leave you to your own ideas. Nice chatting with you.

[el jefe]

You're both right and you're both wrong.

yes, we (humans) need to do something for the elephants that can no longer live in the wild. But every elephant "camp" needs to make money and one way thru word of mouth and advertising that they have a baby elephant. Every tourist comments on the "cute baby elephants."

Where do the baby elephants come from? Though I've read that it's hard to breed elephants in captivity, I'm sure a few are. But why? If they're treated cruelly at the elephant camps, ban the breeding. What I've also read is that many baby elephants are poached from the wild, with adult elephants often killed in the process.

Protect current habitat and ban the addition of any elephants to the current herd at any camp and in 50-60 years the problem will be gone. But right now elephant camp owners are continually adding to the herd and making the problem bigger.

Ii constantly surprises me that people are prepared to post on these threads when they appear to have have no idea of the issues in the first place

My condolences to the family of the mahout. That's a rough way to die.

But let's look at this 'exploitation,' 'greed,' and the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand....

Chiangmai331, are you going to give up your home so the elephants can roam freely? Do you suppose your neighbors will? After all, the land your homes are built upon were once jungle that supported the wild elephant population. Perhaps we can bulldoze down all the moobans that now line the various Ring Roads, raze the shopping malls and re-plant grass lands so the elephants can feed in their natural habitats once more. Hell, we don't need highways or even dual-carriageways, so lets rip them up as well. After all, elephants aren't going to obey stop lights for safe crossing... Are you beginning to see some problems with just letting the elephants run freely?

Kannikapor88, will you please pay the veterinary bills for the elephants? Elephants don't need more than a few dollars a day for food, so could you please pay for that as well... of course multiplied by several hundred elephants currently residing in Elephant Camps. After all, if the tourists aren't paying money (which buys the elephant's food and pays veterinary bills,) someone certainly has to. As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.

Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped. Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic, but I can certainly understand the results. Someone has to pay to feed the elephants. It's rather like the Pro-Life people saying 'we have a duty to save the unborn babies, but no obligation to feed them after they are born...'

Someone has to pay. For food. For medical care. For space. Elephants can't take care of themselves any more because of what WE did to their habitat. So who do you suggest pays now?

I'm astounded at the depth of ignorance of the topic expressed in this post - every pint you make is inaccurate or just downright wrong.

The most appalling thing is that you don't seem to realise that in order to post on a topic you need to know something about it- it is quite clear you have made no effort whatsoever to find out about the plight of elephants in Thailand at all.

Your first comment “the idea of freeing the elephants to roam around Thailand” - is tripe, no-one is suggesting this so debating it is pointless.

And further on you further underline your ignorance of the situation.....

“As we've already seen, thanks to the urbanization of Thailand, there is just no place that can naturally support these several hundred elephants in the wild.”

No we haven’t! This is a totally incorrect statement - you obviously haven’t done any research on this at all - you are just making assumptions thaqt you hope might support your fallacious arguments.

You seem to think that all over Thailand people will have to give up their land and there will be conflicts with elephants.

You obviously are unaware of the amount of land that is ALREADY available for both wild elephants and the potential for keeping captive elephants.

The problems facing elephants in Thailand are largely as a result of encroachment by humans who illegally make use of land they are not entitled to or invade elephants land for hunting and other commercial uses.

You also seem to be confused as to the difference between wild and captive elephants (I won’t use the word domesticated as it is misleading) Both categories have problems that need addressing in different ways - you don’t seem to appreciate this.

As for vet bills - are you serious??? - All countries have a duty to look after both captive and wild animals within their borders. The captive elephants were originally used in logging and have owners - these owners have a moral and even a minimum legal duty to look after them.

As captive elephants - contrary to what you seem to believe - can’t be released into the wild, they have to be looked after by their owners. Therefore it is the governments responsibility to ensure that the elephants’ owners look after them...failing this should result i prosecution.

You also seem to think that the common abuses of elephants are justifies as a way of raising money to look after them.

In fact it has been shown by various establishments both in Asia and Africa that it is not necessary to use exploitative methods to make money for the animals, that in reality the public are quite prepared in fact actually prefer to see elephants is as natural state as possible. So your premise that engaging elephants in is not the only way to finance them.

Then your post just goes from the sublime to the ridiculous..

“Back in the day, elephants used to earn their own wages in the timber industry. Animal activists decided that this was cruel, and managed to get it stopped

Where on earth di you get this idea from?? “Animal activists” - is this some secret society or a figment of your imagination.....what is certainly a figment is your ideas on why logging was stopped in Thailand. In fact logging was banned by the Thai government as a result of the effects of deforestation - notably flooding.

“Somehow it's fine for a water buffalo to drag a plow all day, or an Ox to drag a cart, but cruel for an elephant to drag a tree... OK... I don't need to understand the logic,”

This is none of the most facile comments you make - firstly as you don’t appear to understand either how domesticated animals are used in agriculture or how these conditions compared with the elephants used in the forests for logging. Anyhow as you make this to support a totally incorrect assumption about the ending of logging it needs to be dismissed on all counts.

Finally on your comment about new-born babies just seem top indicate that you are incapable of thinking rationally on any subject.......

Why await MY comments????

You're right. There is no valid reason. It would appear that more than 40 people support the ideas that I've put forth, and only you object to them. It also appears that several people object to the ideas that you put forth. Could it be that you are the only one privy to some secret information than none of the rest of us has? I doubt it.

I've been out of town for a few days, and return to see that the only changes are more people disagreeing with you and more supporting my posts, so I'm going to back out of this discussion and leave you to your own ideas. Nice chatting with you.

[only1]

These <deleted> Chinese tourists must have agitated him. They are always noisy and rough.

[cumgranosalum]

FG -if you think anything I've posted is inaccurate in any way... Please say so... So far you haven't raised a single point that has any basius in fact.

[Aussie69]

I was (rightfully) given warnings for my drunken posts regarding this topic - but I am amazed it is still ongoing ... wow ... so much passion

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Aussie69]

Then again I'm not sure my (drunken) posts were limited to this thread; I may have wandered off topic

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[slipperylobster]

chinese?

elephant?

gone missing?

[FolkGuitar]

chinese?

elephant?

gone missing?

Old news... There are more pressing issues these days with which to spend our time.