Faith in awakening

[camerata]

Are faith and empiricism compatible? For Thanissaro Bhikkhu, they are inseparable components of an authentic Buddhist practice.

THE BUDDHA NEVER PLACED unconditional demands on anyone’s faith. For people from a culture where the dominant religions do make such demands, this is one of Buddhism’s most attractive features. It’s especially appealing to those who—in reaction to the demands of organized religion—embrace the view of scientific empiricism that nothing deserves our trust unless it can be measured against physical data. In this light, the Buddha’s famous instructions to the Kalamas are often read as an invitation to believe, or not, whatever we like.

Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, “This contemplative is our teacher.” When you know for yourselves that “these mental qualities are skillful; these mental qualities are blameless; these mental qualities are praised by the wise; these mental qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness”—then you should enter and remain in them. (Anguttara Nikaya 3.65)

Pointing to this passage, many modern writers have gone so far as to say that faith has no place in the Buddhist tradition, that the proper Buddhist attitude is one of skepticism. But even though the Buddha recommends tolerance and a healthy skepticism toward matters of faith, he also notes a conditional imperative: if you sincerely want to put an end to suffering (that’s the condition) you should take certain things on faith, as working hypotheses, and then test them by following his path of practice. The advice to the Kalamas, in fact, contains the crucial caveat that you must take into account what wise people value.

This caveat gives balance to the Buddha’s advice: just as you shouldn’t give unreserved trust to outside authority, you can’t give unreserved trust to your own logic and feelings if they go against experience and the genuine wisdom of others. As other early discourses make clear, wise people can be recognized by their words and behavior as measured against standards set by the Buddha and his awakened disciples. The proper attitude toward those who meet these standards is faith:

For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher’s message and lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this: “The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I.” (Majjhima Nikaya 70)

Repeatedly the Buddha stated that faith in a teacher is what leads you to learn from that teacher. Faith in the Buddha’s own awakening is a requisite strength for anyone else who wants to attain awakening. As it fosters persistence, mindfulness, concentration, and discernment, this faith can take you all the way to the deathless.

So there’s a tension in the Buddha’s recommendations about faith and empiricism. Few Asian Buddhists I know find the tension uncomfortable, but Western Buddhists—raised in a culture where religion and faith have long been at war with science and empiricism—find it very disconcerting. In my discussions with them, they often try to resolve it in the same ways in which, historically, the tension between Christian faith and scientific empiricism has been resolved in our own culture. Three general positions stand out because they are both common and clearly Western. Consciously or not, they attempt to understand the Buddha’s position on faith and empiricism in a way that can be easily mapped onto the modern Western battle lines between religion and science.

Full article: Tricycle

[oxo1947]

Full article: Tricycle--------------OP

I'm rushing off now to read the full article...........

[DogNo1]

Well, Westerners have been burned many times by authoritarian religious institutions and authoritarian religious leaders. Our trust must be verified and I wouldn't have it any other way whether it pleases Eastern faith leaders and Bicycle or not. Skepticism is healthy.

[AYJAYDEE]

Well, Westerners have been burned many times by authoritarian religious institutions and authoritarian religious leaders. Our trust must be verified and I wouldn't have it any other way whether it pleases Eastern faith leaders and Bicycle or not. Skepticism is healthy.

without a certain amount of faith in the process how will you find the required dedication to perservere long enough to realize the results for yourself?

[rockyysdt]

Well, Westerners have been burned many times by authoritarian religious institutions and authoritarian religious leaders. Our trust must be verified and I wouldn't have it any other way whether it pleases Eastern faith leaders and Bicycle or not. Skepticism is healthy.

The article gives two requirements for the path.

• If you want to confirm his knowledge, you have to touch that dimension in the only place you can access it: inside yourself.
• The other has to do with the integrity of the person attempting the proof.

It goes further:

The Buddha identified all the preliminary steps steps of the practice—going into the wilderness as a monastic; adhering to the precepts; developing restraint, contentment, and strong concentration; seeing past lives and gaining vision of the beings of the cosmos dying and being reborn in line with their karma—as simply footprints and scratch marks of the Buddha’s awakening.

Only when you have your own first taste of awakening, having followed his path, do you really know that your faith in his awakening was well placed.

Touching the dimension where suffering ends, you realize that the Buddha’s teachings about it were not only true but also useful: he knew what he was talking about and was able to point you there as well.

As in science, faith in the Buddha’s awakening acts like a working hypothesis, but the test of that hypothesis requires an honesty deeper and more radical than anything science requires.

You have to commit yourself—every variation on who you feel you are—totally to the test.

Only when you take apart all clinging to your inner and outer senses can you prove whether the activity of clinging is what hides the deathless.

The Buddha never forced anyone to commit to this test, both because you can’t coerce people to be honest with themselves, and because he saw that the pit of burning embers was coercion enough.

D N, with skepticism, where will you find the faith to go into the wilderness as a monastic; adhere to the precepts; develop restraint, contentment, and build strong concentration; and still be well short of any verification, as this stage will only reveal foot prints and scratch marks?

As there will be no verification until you have your first taste of Awakening, how will you employ empirical testing, which you indicated sets Buddhism part from authoritarian religions?

[only1]

Well, Westerners have been burned many times by authoritarian religious institutions and authoritarian religious leaders. Our trust must be verified and I wouldn't have it any other way whether it pleases Eastern faith leaders and Bicycle or not. Skepticism is healthy.

without a certain amount of faith in the process how will you find the required dedication to perservere long enough to realize the results for yourself?

This argument is only valid for some kind of beliefs that doesn't make sense or logic, example Christianity. Their leaders always use such an excuse in order that their ignorant believers stay on...Just like some mlm companies trainings used the same.

In Buddhism, such reasoning or tactic don't applies. A person follows Buddhism with understandings, not faith or simply blind belief. If not, they would have chosen any other religion which is easier to follow.

[AYJAYDEE]

Well, Westerners have been burned many times by authoritarian religious institutions and authoritarian religious leaders. Our trust must be verified and I wouldn't have it any other way whether it pleases Eastern faith leaders and Bicycle or not. Skepticism is healthy.

without a certain amount of faith in the process how will you find the required dedication to perservere long enough to realize the results for yourself?

This argument is only valid for some kind of beliefs that doesn't make sense or logic, example Christianity. Their leaders always use such an excuse in order that their ignorant believers stay on...Just like some mlm companies trainings used the same.

In Buddhism, such reasoning or tactic don't applies. A person follows Buddhism with understandings, not faith or simply blind belief. If not, they would have chosen any other religion which is easier to follow.

not true, unless you have become enlightened yourself, you are relying on faith that the eightfold path will lead to nibbana. Buddha instructed us not to completely believe anything you read or hear until we see it for ourselves.

[rockyysdt]

This argument is only valid for some kind of beliefs that doesn't make sense or logic, example Christianity. Their leaders always use such an excuse in order that their ignorant believers stay on...Just like some mlm companies trainings used the same.

This argument is only valid for some kind of beliefs that doesn't make sense or logic, example Christianity. Their leaders always use such an excuse in order that their ignorant believers stay on...Just like some mlm companies trainings used the same.

In Buddhism, such reasoning or tactic don't applies. A person follows Buddhism with understandings, not faith or simply blind belief. If not, they would have chosen any other religion which is easier to follow.

So you're going to sacrifice your whole life to practice of Sitting & Mindfulness, perhaps up to 16 hours a day, for most of your life, without empirical evidence of what Nibanna is and whether it indeed exists, without any faith?