Forensic team to testify in Koh Tao murder trial

[catsanddogs]

more news today but you will need to google this "Defence points to flaws in probe of Koh Tao murders"

Thanks SE. The same report is also in the daily mail today -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/reuters/article-3245908/Defence-points-flaws-probe-Britons-Thai-island-murder.html

The hearings are taking place on nearby Koh Samui, where the defence would present a statement from a British expert who has analysed surveillance camera footage being used as evidence.

The expert was contacted by Briton Andy Hall, a Thailand-based activist who specialises in protecting the rights of Myanmar labourers and exposing abuses.

"We saw a lot of instances of police abuse and torture that were happening and a concern for us is that the police were just focusing on ways to nail the two defendants," Hall said outside the court.

"We believe, from my investigation, that they blocked out so much of other evidence that could have been used ... simply to focus on the two accused," he said, referring to the police.

[Madaussie]

Humans share 50% DNA with bananas

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/humans-share-50-dna-bananas-2482139

Chimpanzees share 98.4 per cent of our DNA, but the differences between us and them are still profound, as a new book argues.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/evolution/5695045/Are-human-beings-impossible-to-ape.html

So 25% match doesn't cut the mustard does it???

[balo]

To : - AleG, Goldbuggy and their TVF 'friends'

If anyone cares to read my earlier posts it's clear I could be convinced the B2 took part in the rape and murders, but only in a peripheral way, as emplyees acting under instructions from their boss(es). I made one qualification that the principle of 'beyond reasonable doubt' would have to be displayed in a fair and open trial. IMHO, the possibility of such a trial all but disappeared a long time ago, eg when a policeman perjured himself, CCTVs were not checked at the pier and clothing not submitted for DNA analysis, etc, etc, etc.

However, given the supposed righteous and judicious qualities of the police and the Thai legal system pronounced by yourselves, I still have some faith that a just verdict will be announced by the judges next month, and the B2 will be found not guilty.

I realise this is a hypothetical question, but if the B2 walk free, do you, AleG, Goldbuggy et al support the immediate re-opening of the investigation, in persuit of the real perpetrators of these horrific crimes?

Whatever the outcome of the verdict the investigation from armchair detectives will continue for months to come. If B2 are indeed innocent there will be a demand for a proper investigation by RTP. But since nobody want to believe a word of what RTP comes up with , there will only be more speculations and theories about what happened that night. Unless someone hires a private foreign investigator but I think its too late for that.

However if new evidence should come to the light, like CCTV footage from AC bar or maybe some of the people that fled the island, like McAnna breaks his silence.

[webfact]

Defense points to flaws in probe over Britons' Thai island murder
KOH SAMUI, THAILAND | BY PRAPAN CHANKAEW

KOH SAMUI: -- Lawyers defending two Myanmar migrant workers on trial for the Thai holiday island murders of two British backpackers sought on Wednesday to expose holes in a police investigation they maintain was botched and intended to frame the suspects.

The conduct of Thailand's police and treatment of its huge Myanmar labor force has been central to the trial of the young men accused of killing Hannah Witheridge and David Miller a year ago on the southern island of Koh Tao.

Post-mortem examinations showed the victims suffered severe head wounds and Witheridge was raped, but lawyers and activists say the two Myanmar accused, Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Htun, have been made scapegoats for the killings.

The case has attracted extensive media attention in Britain and raised questions about Thailand's ability to protect its tourists. The bodies of Miller, 24, and Witheridge, 23, were found on a beach on the small island popular with backpackers and divers.

Full story: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/09/23/us-thailand-britain-murder-idUSKCN0RN0NA20150923


-- Reuters 2015-09-23

[GAZZPA]

I'm thinking if the prosecution is going to keep dickin around and not release full documentation for a clear and open analysis by the defense...it might be about time to reveal that coroner's report from the UK. It seems like the prosecution are in the final 10 seconds of a basketball game...they have the ball and are passing it around to run out the clock.

Sounds like a good idea but apparently the UK agreed with Thailand that the report would not be made public,, so we will never know what is in it. All we know from the UK press is that the forensic team in the UK have some "serious" issues about the Thai pathologist report and that they felt it was their duty to present to the court in Thailand.

It was definitely suggested it would help the case of the defence, but we will probably never know.

[StealthEnergiser]

more news today but you will need to google this "Defence points to flaws in probe of Koh Tao murders"

Reuters Feed

Myanmar national Zaw Lin looks on as he arrives in a prison transport van outside Koh Samui court on the Thai resort island of Koh Samui on July 9, 2015. Photo: AFP Defence points to flaws in probe over Britons' Thai island murder Reuters | Wednesday, Sep 23, 2015 Reuters Wednesday, Sep 23, 2015 KOH SAMUI, Thailand - Lawyers defending two Myanmar migrant workers on trial for the Thai holiday island murders of two British backpackers sought on Wednesday to expose holes in a police investigation they maintain was botched and intended to frame the suspects.

http://news.asiaone.com/news/asia/defence-points-flaws-probe-over-britons-thai-island-murder

From that Article

"We saw a lot of instances of police abuse and torture that were happening and a concern for us is that the police were just focusing on ways to nail the two defendants," Hall said outside the court.

"We believe, from my investigation, that they blocked out so much of other evidence that could have been used ... simply to focus on the two accused," he said, referring to the police.

[stephenterry]

more news today but you will need to google this "Defence points to flaws in probe of Koh Tao murders"

Reuters Feed

Myanmar national Zaw Lin looks on as he arrives in a prison transport van outside Koh Samui court on the Thai resort island of Koh Samui on July 9, 2015. Photo: AFP Defence points to flaws in probe over Britons' Thai island murder Reuters | Wednesday, Sep 23, 2015 Reuters Wednesday, Sep 23, 2015 KOH SAMUI, Thailand - Lawyers defending two Myanmar migrant workers on trial for the Thai holiday island murders of two British backpackers sought on Wednesday to expose holes in a police investigation they maintain was botched and intended to frame the suspects.

http://news.asiaone.com/news/asia/defence-points-flaws-probe-over-britons-thai-island-murder

From that Article

"We saw a lot of instances of police abuse and torture that were happening and a concern for us is that the police were just focusing on ways to nail the two defendants," Hall said outside the court.

"We believe, from my investigation, that they blocked out so much of other evidence that could have been used ... simply to focus on the two accused," he said, referring to the police.

AH is politically correct. I would say, 'we believe that they blocked out so much evidence that could have been used to nail the real perps.'

[Madaussie]

I'm thinking if the prosecution is going to keep dickin around and not release full documentation for a clear and open analysis by the defense...it might be about time to reveal that coroner's report from the UK. It seems like the prosecution are in the final 10 seconds of a basketball game...they have the ball and are passing it around to run out the clock.

Sounds like a good idea but apparently the UK agreed with Thailand that the report would not be made public,, so we will never know what is in it. All we know from the UK press is that the forensic team in the UK have some "serious" issues about the Thai pathologist report and that they felt it was their duty to present to the court in Thailand.

It was definitely suggested it would help the case of the defence, but we will probably never know.

I know some of it but was scolded for mentioning maybe this and maybe that.. So I deleted it. It will come out in the inquest anyway. They cant keep it quiet forever. Freedoms in the UK allow people to know the truth at some point.

[fireplay]

I'm thinking if the prosecution is going to keep dickin around and not release full documentation for a clear and open analysis by the defense...it might be about time to reveal that coroner's report from the UK. It seems like the prosecution are in the final 10 seconds of a basketball game...they have the ball and are passing it around to run out the clock.

Sounds like a good idea but apparently the UK agreed with Thailand that the report would not be made public,, so we will never know what is in it. All we know from the UK press is that the forensic team in the UK have some "serious" issues about the Thai pathologist report and that they felt it was their duty to present to the court in Thailand.

It was definitely suggested it would help the case of the defence, but we will probably never know.

Won't the inquest be in the public domain...even if after the trial ends?

[partington]

Humans share 50% DNA with bananas

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/humans-share-50-dna-bananas-2482139

Chimpanzees share 98.4 per cent of our DNA, but the differences between us and them are still profound, as a new book argues.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/evolution/5695045/Are-human-beings-impossible-to-ape.html

So 25% match doesn't cut the mustard does it???

You are confused about what "match" means in a DNA profile, and what is meant when it is said that a chimpanzee's or a banana's DNA "matches" a certain percentage of human DNA.

The matches in a DNA profile only refer to human beings. The kits used in human DNA profiling only work on human DNA and would produce zero results if used on either banana or chimp DNA. They specifically look at only 13 tiny areas of around 2-300 base pairs in human DNA (the entire human DNA is 3 billion base pairs) and would give zero match with DNA from any other species.

The "matches" between human DNA and banana or chimp DNA that are referred to in these kinds of statements means when you compare 3,000,000,000 base pairs of human DNA with approximately the same number of bases in a chimp, and the approximately 500,000,000 base pairs in a banana, all along their length.

This has nothing to do with matches in a DNA profile which are zero: they are talking about two different, completely unrelated, issues.

[Muirton]

I don't know the RTP trying to keep framing these 2 small Burmese guys when there is no credible DNA match-do they hate the Burmese so much or is this a cover up for the 'Mafia' on the island?

Yes, and yes.

From what I hear in the very rural north, the first falang to live in my wee village I'm told, the name of the Mafia brat who is the murderer is known to tens of thousands of Thais, falang and Burmese. And, of course, from Day One, by Thai Police.

[catsanddogs]

I'm thinking if the prosecution is going to keep dickin around and not release full documentation for a clear and open analysis by the defense...it might be about time to reveal that coroner's report from the UK. It seems like the prosecution are in the final 10 seconds of a basketball game...they have the ball and are passing it around to run out the clock.

Sounds like a good idea but apparently the UK agreed with Thailand that the report would not be made public,, so we will never know what is in it. All we know from the UK press is that the forensic team in the UK have some "serious" issues about the Thai pathologist report and that they felt it was their duty to present to the court in Thailand.

It was definitely suggested it would help the case of the defence, but we will probably never know.

I know some of it but was scolded for mentioning maybe this and maybe that.. So I deleted it. It will come out in the inquest anyway. They cant keep it quiet forever. Freedoms in the UK allow people to know the truth at some point.

People in the UK should be furnished with the truth now, not some point in the future. If I was planning on a holiday to Koh Tao I would want to be reassured by the UK Government that they had done everything possible in their power to ensure that they were 100% confident that the evil people that committed the horrendous crimes on their citizens only a year ago were not still free to repeat their deeds. What benefit is it to anyone to withhold such vital information?

[GAZZPA]

I'm thinking if the prosecution is going to keep dickin around and not release full documentation for a clear and open analysis by the defense...it might be about time to reveal that coroner's report from the UK. It seems like the prosecution are in the final 10 seconds of a basketball game...they have the ball and are passing it around to run out the clock.

Sounds like a good idea but apparently the UK agreed with Thailand that the report would not be made public,, so we will never know what is in it. All we know from the UK press is that the forensic team in the UK have some "serious" issues about the Thai pathologist report and that they felt it was their duty to present to the court in Thailand.

It was definitely suggested it would help the case of the defence, but we will probably never know.

I know some of it but was scolded for mentioning maybe this and maybe that.. So I deleted it. It will come out in the inquest anyway. They cant keep it quiet forever. Freedoms in the UK allow people to know the truth at some point.

People in the UK should be furnished with the truth now, not some point in the future. If I was planning on a holiday to Koh Tao I would want to be reassured by the UK Government that they had done everything possible in their power to ensure that they were 100% confident that the evil people that committed the horrendous crimes on their citizens only a year ago were not still free to repeat their deeds. What benefit is it to anyone to withhold such vital information?

they have not withheld it, they have sent it to the courts. The UK have some sort of agreement that the report cannot be made public, so the public will not get to see it (until it is leaked in the UK of course which is just a matter of time).

People in the UK are already getting the picture about Thailand, its justice system and overall corruption.

[GAZZPA]

I'm thinking if the prosecution is going to keep dickin around and not release full documentation for a clear and open analysis by the defense...it might be about time to reveal that coroner's report from the UK. It seems like the prosecution are in the final 10 seconds of a basketball game...they have the ball and are passing it around to run out the clock.

Sounds like a good idea but apparently the UK agreed with Thailand that the report would not be made public,, so we will never know what is in it. All we know from the UK press is that the forensic team in the UK have some "serious" issues about the Thai pathologist report and that they felt it was their duty to present to the court in Thailand.

It was definitely suggested it would help the case of the defence, but we will probably never know.

Won't the inquest be in the public domain...even if after the trial ends?

I am not 100% sure of what the UK / Thai agreement is.. But what are the chances it will be leaked? No one in the UK would care or do anything about it I am sure,, guess we will have to wait.

[joebrown]

To : - AleG, Goldbuggy and their TVF 'friends'

If anyone cares to read my earlier posts it's clear I could be convinced the B2 took part in the rape and murders, but only in a peripheral way, as emplyees acting under instructions from their boss(es). I made one qualification that the principle of 'beyond reasonable doubt' would have to be displayed in a fair and open trial. IMHO, the possibility of such a trial all but disappeared a long time ago, eg when a policeman perjured himself, CCTVs were not checked at the pier and clothing not submitted for DNA analysis, etc, etc, etc.

However, given the supposed righteous and judicious qualities of the police and the Thai legal system pronounced by yourselves, I still have some faith that a just verdict will be announced by the judges next month, and the B2 will be found not guilty.

I realise this is a hypothetical question, but if the B2 walk free, do you, AleG, Goldbuggy et al support the immediate re-opening of the investigation, in persuit of the real perpetrators of these horrific crimes?

Whatever the outcome of the verdict the investigation from armchair detectives will continue for months to come. If B2 are indeed innocent there will be a demand for a proper investigation by RTP. But since nobody want to believe a word of what RTP comes up with , there will only be more speculations and theories about what happened that night. Unless someone hires a private foreign investigator but I think its too late for that.

However if new evidence should come to the light, like CCTV footage from AC bar or maybe some of the people that fled the island, like McAnna breaks his silence.

Thanks for your predictable reply.

Maybe I should have limited my post to ask for a Yes/No answer, to avoid the inevitable deflective, non-commital response. So, 'Balo', I ask you now whether you agree in principle (putting aside all the other issues) that the Thai police investigation should be re-opened if the B2 are found not guilty. Please answer Yes or No this time. Thanks. The same Yes/No question and answer also goes to AG, Goldbuggy and friends.

[thailandchilli]

So apparently from the witness list, the Defense will be presenting no witnesses -- UK, Thai, or otherwise -- who were at the scene or vicinity of the crimes on the night in question and who who were in the company of the victims who can testify as to the doings of Ms. Witheridge or Mr. Miller in the hours previous to the crimes.

Which is odd because I distinctly remember them claiming that they had witnesses that could prove the two defendants innocence, including eye witnesses.

More memories by you that are unsubstantiated. I'm particularly interested in this little gem " including eye witnesses" Please go ahead and prove me wrong with a link that states they had these eye witnesses who were going to attend the trial. Other than those who were to afraid to attend.

[Madaussie]

Humans share 50% DNA with bananas

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/humans-share-50-dna-bananas-2482139

Chimpanzees share 98.4 per cent of our DNA, but the differences between us and them are still profound, as a new book argues.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/evolution/5695045/Are-human-beings-impossible-to-ape.html

So 25% match doesn't cut the mustard does it???

You are confused about what "match" means in a DNA profile, and what is meant when it is said that a chimpanzee's or a banana's DNA "matches" a certain percentage of human DNA.

The matches in a DNA profile only refer to human beings. The kits used in human DNA profiling only work on human DNA and would produce zero results if used on either banana or chimp DNA. They specifically look at only 13 tiny areas of around 2-300 base pairs in human DNA (the entire human DNA is 3 billion base pairs) and would give zero match with DNA from any other species.

The "matches" between human DNA and banana or chimp DNA that are referred to in these kinds of statements means when you compare 3,000,000,000 base pairs of human DNA with approximately the same number of bases in a chimp, and the approximately 500,000,000 base pairs in a banana, all along their length.

This has nothing to do with matches in a DNA profile which are zero: they are talking about two different, completely unrelated, issues.

Ok thanks for that I will stop monkeying around then.

[thailandchilli]

Can somebody on this forum who knows something about DNA kindly explain this?

Mr Waiyawuth said that a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile but that did not mean he could be included as a suspect. DNA experts agree that DNA profiling demands a 99.9999% accurate match.

What is meant by "a quarter of the indicators from one of the suspects matched the partial profile"? Does this mean that the partial profile was from someone of the same ethnicity, i.e. Asian, as one of the suspects?

No it does not.

A DNA profile can be thought of in simple terms as a set of 20- 30 different numbers, depending on whether the UK system (10 pairs of markers) or the US system (13 pairs of markers) is being used.

At each marker you read two numbers. In every person these numbers at each marker can vary between say 5 and 20. It's like a combination lock of 30 numbers long with each of the 30 values having at least 10 possibilities. Finding the combination by chance would have a probability less than one in 50 billion.

In exactly the same way, a DNA profile with all 30 numbers identifies a person absolutely: it is just impossible for two people to have the same set of 30 numbers by chance, so this is a perfect identification system.

BUT if you can only read 20 out of the 30 numbers , or 15 out of the 20, how good is the identification? Only being able to read some of the numbers from a DNA profile is very common indeed: when the DNA is in low amounts, when the DNA is a mix of many people, when the sample is very old and cells are degraded, when the sample is from a rape kit where the swab was taken a long period after the crime and the suspect's sample has been degraded by body enzymes, and so on.

So this is what, in general terms, is meant by a "partial profile".

The situation is even more uncertain here because they are talking about Y-chromosome profiling. This is often done when the DNA is in very low amounts, or is contaminated with huge amounts of victim DNA (as is often the case in sexual assaults), and you can't do a 'proper' 30-marker identification profile.

Because only men have the Y-chromosome, testing for a Y-chromosome profile eliminates all female DNA without having to do complicated chemical separations on the sample that can destroy much of it if the quality or amount is low.

BUT Y-chromosome typing is NOT good enough for identification purposes, because the Y-chromosome, unlike the markers used in the 13 marker profling above, does not change enough over time to be useful. All male relatives: fathers, brother, sons, paternal uncles, will have identical Y-chromosome markers, Also in some populations, especially where there is not much migration, it is possible for the same Y-chromosome profile to be present in as many as 1 in a 1000 unrelated people. So even a complete Y-chromosome profile is not good enough to prove identity.

Its main use is to exclude suspects. If a marker is present with, say, value 20 in a suspect, but the crime scene DNA has the value 11 at this place, this proves beyond argument that the DNA is not the suspect's.

A Y-chromosome match of 25%, which is being discussed here, means that only one quarter of the markers were the same. This means nothing at all about identification, as the witness said. No markers were readable that excluded the suspect, and a match of one quarter of the markers with the suspect gives no indication at all about whether it is his DNA, because this same match could have been obtained from any random man off the street.

Not often I'll bookmark a post but this is one I will. Informative and authoritative post, many thanks

[Madaussie]

I know some of it but was scolded for mentioning maybe this and maybe that.. So I deleted it. It will come out in the inquest anyway. They cant keep it quiet forever. Freedoms in the UK allow people to know the truth at some point.

People in the UK should be furnished with the truth now, not some point in the future. If I was planning on a holiday to Koh Tao I would want to be reassured by the UK Government that they had done everything possible in their power to ensure that they were 100% confident that the evil people that committed the horrendous crimes on their citizens only a year ago were not still free to repeat their deeds. What benefit is it to anyone to withhold such vital information?

they have not withheld it, they have sent it to the courts. The UK have some sort of agreement that the report cannot be made public, so the public will not get to see it (until it is leaked in the UK of course which is just a matter of time).

People in the UK are already getting the picture about Thailand, its justice system and overall corruption.

I just emailed the Coroner for their opinion on what will be made public so will update you when I get a reply.

Also what is available under the FOI Act

[BritTim]

People in the UK should be furnished with the truth now, not some point in the future. If I was planning on a holiday to Koh Tao I would want to be reassured by the UK Government that they had done everything possible in their power to ensure that they were 100% confident that the evil people that committed the horrendous crimes on their citizens only a year ago were not still free to repeat their deeds. What benefit is it to anyone to withhold such vital information?

I am sympathetic to your point of view. That said, the rules that forbid disclosure exist for pretty good reasons, and making exceptions opens a real can of worms.

Briefly, the UK is against the death penalty. They refuse to disclose information that might help to convict someone in a capital case. Trouble is, if you refuse to help the prosecution in such a case, should you simultaneously help the defense? Fortunately, one UK coroner seems to have concluded that natural justice needs to trump the general rules, and is allowing the judges to see evidence she considers important to the defense. Some will be aggrieved by her doing so, and she may well find herself in trouble for it. I am glad she did, but making an exception in this case is bound to lead to demands for further exceptions in the future, with people potentially dying as a result.

Keeping the evidence out of the public domain until the time proscribed by law, while frustrating, is the right thing to do. In the UK, it needs to be properly presented, with interested parties allowed to query it. The rules in Thailand are different, with only the judges responsible for determining the relevance of evidence.

[JLCrab]

Fabrice Burtin ‏@Fabriceburtin Sep 14

@Atomicalandy it's been a year since the 5 friends that were with them didn't come up to say what

happened at the bar that evening

Andy Hall ‏@Atomicalandy Sep 14

@Fabriceburtin how do you know that? They didn't need to tell the world what they know, some

things best kept more low key perhaps?

[Madaussie]

Sent to Norfolk Coroner:

Date:23/09/2015 09:40 (GMT+00:00)

To: [email protected]

Subject: Hannah Witheridge

Dear Sir/Madam,

I write in respect of the case of Hannah Witheridge you are dealing with. I noted that you have passed the files relating to Miss Witheridge to a court in Thailand as they contain significant discrepancies compared with the Thai results. (my apologises if this isn't quiet correct)

I would like to know if you will be publishing the full facts and findings at Miss Witheridges Inquest. Including the discrepancies that have been uncovered.

Also the date of the hearing if its been set or the next preliminary hearing.

If you don't publish the full facts at the inquest is it possible under the FOI act to get a copy of the findings.

I did attend the hearing in January and spoke with Mark after the adjournment, he will remember me I don't doubt. My interest in this case is the pursuit of Justice for Hannah and David.

Please respond with full details on my rights to access information relating to the case.

Kind Regs

[balo]

To : - AleG, Goldbuggy and their TVF 'friends'

If anyone cares to read my earlier posts it's clear I could be convinced the B2 took part in the rape and murders, but only in a peripheral way, as emplyees acting under instructions from their boss(es). I made one qualification that the principle of 'beyond reasonable doubt' would have to be displayed in a fair and open trial. IMHO, the possibility of such a trial all but disappeared a long time ago, eg when a policeman perjured himself, CCTVs were not checked at the pier and clothing not submitted for DNA analysis, etc, etc, etc.

However, given the supposed righteous and judicious qualities of the police and the Thai legal system pronounced by yourselves, I still have some faith that a just verdict will be announced by the judges next month, and the B2 will be found not guilty.

I realise this is a hypothetical question, but if the B2 walk free, do you, AleG, Goldbuggy et al support the immediate re-opening of the investigation, in persuit of the real perpetrators of these horrific crimes?

Whatever the outcome of the verdict the investigation from armchair detectives will continue for months to come. If B2 are indeed innocent there will be a demand for a proper investigation by RTP. But since nobody want to believe a word of what RTP comes up with , there will only be more speculations and theories about what happened that night. Unless someone hires a private foreign investigator but I think its too late for that.

However if new evidence should come to the light, like CCTV footage from AC bar or maybe some of the people that fled the island, like McAnna breaks his silence.

Thanks for your predictable reply.

Maybe I should have limited my post to ask for a Yes/No answer, to avoid the inevitable deflective, non-commital response. So, 'Balo', I ask you now whether you agree in principle (putting aside all the other issues) that the Thai police investigation should be re-opened if the B2 are found not guilty. Please answer Yes or No this time. Thanks. The same Yes/No question and answer also goes to AG, Goldbuggy and friends.

Of course it wll be reopened , I thought that was clear , YES, but if RTP decide to reopen the case there will be not a lot of RTP believers on this forum.

[phuketandsee]

Burmese men defence lawyers challenge Thai police to revise murder theory after victims’ DNA found on murder weapon

From the Eastern Daily Press. For some reason I can't copy the link so you have to Google it.

Apologies if this has been posted already

[JLCrab]

Information held by a public authority

for the purposes of the Freedom of

Information Act

8. The example emphasises that it is the circumstances of each case that will determine whether information is held for the purposes of FOIA.

See also 7.

https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/documents/1148/information_held_by_a_public_authority_for_purposes_of_foia.pdf

[AleG]

So apparently from the witness list, the Defense will be presenting no witnesses -- UK, Thai, or otherwise -- who were at the scene or vicinity of the crimes on the night in question and who who were in the company of the victims who can testify as to the doings of Ms. Witheridge or Mr. Miller in the hours previous to the crimes.

Which is odd because I distinctly remember them claiming that they had witnesses that could prove the two defendants innocence, including eye witnesses.

More memories by you that are unsubstantiated. I'm particularly interested in this little gem " including eye witnesses" Please go ahead and prove me wrong with a link that states they had these eye witnesses who were going to attend the trial. Other than those who were to afraid to attend.

"U Aung Myo Thant said one of the eyewitnesses saw the men who accompanied the British tourists Hannah Witheridge and David Miller from the hotel shortly before the murder. Another witness said he had seen the rape by the light of his motorbike."

I'm sure you are quite satisfied in believing the reason these supposed witnesses don't seem to have materialized is because they were scared of by some vague but nefarious group, from appearing in court... or recording their testimony outside of court, or anything at all that would point to their actual existence.

[AleG]

Whatever the outcome of the verdict the investigation from armchair detectives will continue for months to come. If B2 are indeed innocent there will be a demand for a proper investigation by RTP. But since nobody want to believe a word of what RTP comes up with , there will only be more speculations and theories about what happened that night. Unless someone hires a private foreign investigator but I think its too late for that.

However if new evidence should come to the light, like CCTV footage from AC bar or maybe some of the people that fled the island, like McAnna breaks his silence.

Thanks for your predictable reply.

Maybe I should have limited my post to ask for a Yes/No answer, to avoid the inevitable deflective, non-commital response. So, 'Balo', I ask you now whether you agree in principle (putting aside all the other issues) that the Thai police investigation should be re-opened if the B2 are found not guilty. Please answer Yes or No this time. Thanks. The same Yes/No question and answer also goes to AG, Goldbuggy and friends.

Of course it wll be reopened , I thought that was clear , YES, but if RTP decide to reopen the case there will be not a lot of RTP believers on this forum.

A new investigation under that scenario will probably a dead end, there will be no DNA evidence (hypothetically having already been discredited), it will be a very empty slate that, as you mention, would only please the alternative theory crowd because they'll have an empty canvass on which to draw their own ideas.

It's been a year since the murders, the alternative crowd has produced exactly zero evidence to support a case against anyone else and that is not bound to change, regardless of the outcome of the case; the only real evidence available is the one that the police has assembled. By taking the knee jerk and prejudiced stance of completely discrediting the RTP work the end result will be, as I mentioned before, that the baby is going to go out with the bath water.

[Madaussie]

Information held by a public authority

for the purposes of the Freedom of

Information Act

8. The example emphasises that it is the circumstances of each case that will determine whether information is held for the purposes of FOIA.

See also 7.

https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/documents/1148/information_held_by_a_public_authority_for_purposes_of_foia.pdf

The Inquest is Open to the public Crabby. My interest is whether they will disclose the inconsistency's found or not. I would guess they have to but rather than discuss it on here its better to ask. Its a free country in the UK and they have to respond even if its to say no sorry we will nit disclose important information. However I think they will and have to. If we get the response at least all the armchair deteks will have it from the horses mouth. I for one don't know the answer.

[Madaussie]

A new investigation under that scenario will probably a dead end, there will be no DNA evidence (hypothetically having already been discredited), it will be a very empty slate that, as you mention, would only please the alternative theory crowd because they'll have an empty canvass on which to draw their own ideas.

It's been a year since the murders, the alternative crowd has produced exactly zero evidence to support a case against anyone else and that is not bound to change, regardless of the outcome of the case; the only real evidence available is the one that the police has assembled. By taking the knee jerk and prejudiced stance of completely discrediting the RTP work the end result will be, as I mentioned before, that the baby is going to go out with the bath water.

So if they are found not guilty should the police give up then??

What should they do AleG??

[StealthEnergiser]

Has the running man been identified yet ?